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Andy's stalkers: misanthropic, unconscionable ghouls. What drives them?

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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:24 AM
Original message
Andy's stalkers: misanthropic, unconscionable ghouls. What drives them?
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 01:57 AM by nicknameless
We’ve lost our Andy.

He was not only ravaged by cancer, there was a concerted effort by right-wing ghouls to prevent him from getting the care he needed and to harass and intimidate those who sought to help him.

Many wonder what on earth drives the clinically insane who stalked and tormented this wonderful man.

FWIW, here are some links to my favorite site on the topic. Although it mostly addresses workplace bullying, the characteristics cited are universal.
generally: http://www.bullyonline.org
and for the excerpt below: http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/bully.htm#Why

Personal qualities that bullies find irresistible

Targets of bullying usually have these qualities:

* popularity (this stimulates jealousy in the less-than-popular bully)
* competence (this stimulates envy in the less-than-competent bully)
* intelligence and intellect
* honesty and integrity (which bullies despise)
* you're trustworthy, trusting, conscientious, loyal and dependable
* a well-developed integrity which you're unwilling to compromise
* you're always willing to go that extra mile and expect others to do the same
* successful, tenacious, determined, courageous, having fortitude
* a sense of humour, including displays of quick-wittedness
* imaginative, creative, innovative
* idealistic, optimistic, always working for improvement and betterment of self, family, the employer, and the world
* ability to master new skills
* ability to think long term and to see the bigger picture
* sensitivity (this is a constellation of values to be cherished including empathy, concern for others, respect, tolerance etc)
* slow to anger
* helpful, always willing to share knowledge and experience
* giving and selfless
* difficulty saying no
* diligent, industrious
* tolerant
* strong sense of honour
* irrepressible, wanting to tackle and correct injustice wherever you see it
* an inability to value oneself whilst attributing greater importance and validity to other people's opinions of oneself (eg through tests, exams, appraisals, manager's feedback, etc)
* low propensity to violence (ie you prefer to resolve conflict through dialogue rather than through violence or legal action)
* a strong forgiving streak (which the bully exploits and manipulates to dissuade you from taking grievance and legal action)
* a desire to always think well of others
* being incorruptible, having high moral standards which you are unwilling to compromise
* being unwilling to lower standards
* a strong well-defined set of values which you are unwilling to compromise or abandon
* high expectations of those in authority and a dislike of incompetent people in positions of power who abuse power
* a tendency to self-deprecation, indecisiveness, deference and approval seeking
* low assertiveness
* a need to feel valued
* quick to apologise when accused, even if not guilty (this is a useful technique for defusing an aggressive customer or potential road rage incident)
* perfectionism
* higher-than-average levels of dependency, naivety and guilt
* a strong sense of fair play and a desire to always be reasonable
* high coping skills under stress, especially when the injury to health becomes apparent
* a tendency to internalise anger rather than express it


Adding: "Andy Stephenson" so that those looking for threads about him can find this one.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. The serial bully
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm

The serial bully

* is a convincing, practised liar and when called to account, will make up anything spontaneously to fit their needs at that moment
* has a Jekyll and Hyde nature - is vile, vicious and vindictive in private, but innocent and charming in front of witnesses; no-one can (or wants to) believe this individual has a vindictive nature - only the current target of the serial bully's aggression sees both sides; whilst the Jekyll side is described as "charming" and convincing enough to deceive personnel, management and a tribunal, the Hyde side is frequently described as "evil"; Hyde is the real person, Jekyll is an act
* excels at deception and should never be underestimated in their capacity to deceive
* uses excessive charm and is always plausible and convincing when peers, superiors or others are present (charm can be used to deceive as well as to cover for lack of empathy)
* is glib, shallow and superficial with plenty of fine words and lots of form - but there's no substance
* is possessed of an exceptional verbal facility and will outmanoeuvre most people in verbal interaction, especially at times of conflict
* is often described as smooth, slippery, slimy, ingratiating, fawning, toadying, obsequious, sycophantic
* relies on mimicry, repetition and regurgitation to convince others that he or she is both a "normal" human being and a tough dynamic manager, as in extolling the virtues of the latest management fads and pouring forth the accompanying jargon
* is unusually skilled in being able to anticipate what people want to hear and then saying it plausibly
* cannot be trusted or relied upon
* fails to fulfil commitments
* is emotionally retarded with an arrested level of emotional development; whilst language and intellect may appear to be that of an adult, the bully displays the emotional age of a five-year-old
* is emotionally immature and emotionally untrustworthy
* exhibits unusual and inappropriate attitudes to sexual matters, sexual behaviour and bodily functions; underneath the charming exterior there are often suspicions or hints of sex discrimination and sexual harassment, perhaps also sexual dysfunction, sexual inadequacy, sexual perversion, sexual violence or sexual abuse
* in a relationship, is incapable of initiating or sustaining intimacy
* holds deep prejudices (eg against the opposite gender, people of a different sexual orientation, other cultures and religious beliefs, foreigners, etc - prejudiced people are unvaryingly unimaginative) but goes to great lengths to keep this prejudicial aspect of their personality secret
* is self-opinionated and displays arrogance, audacity, a superior sense of entitlement and sense of invulnerability and untouchability
* has a deep-seated contempt of clients in contrast to his or her professed compassion
* is a control freak and has a compulsive need to control everyone and everything you say, do, think and believe; for example, will launch an immediate personal attack attempting to restrict what you are permitted to say if you start talking knowledgeably about psychopathic personality or antisocial personality disorder in their presence - but aggressively maintains the right to talk (usually unknowledgeably) about anything they choose; serial bullies despise anyone who enables others to see through their deception and their mask of sanity
* displays a compulsive need to criticise whilst simultaneously refusing to value, praise and acknowledge others, their achievements, or their existence
* shows a lack of joined-up thinking with conversation that doesn't flow and arguments that don't hold water
* flits from topic to topic so that you come away feeling you've never had a proper conversation
* refuses to be specific and never gives a straight answer
* is evasive and has a Houdini-like ability to escape accountability
* undermines and destroys anyone who the bully perceives to be an adversary, a potential threat, or who can see through the bully's mask
* is adept at creating conflict between those who would otherwise collate incriminating information about them
* is quick to discredit and neutralise anyone who can talk knowledgeably about antisocial or sociopathic behaviors
* may pursue a vindictive vendetta against anyone who dares to held them accountable, perhaps using others' resources and contemptuous of the damage caused to other people and organisations in pursuance of the vendetta
* is also quick to belittle, undermine, denigrate and discredit anyone who calls, attempts to call, or might call the bully to account
* gains gratification from denying people what they are entitled to
* is highly manipulative, especially of people's perceptions and emotions (eg guilt)
* poisons peoples' minds by manipulating their perceptions
* when called upon to share or address the needs and concerns of others, responds with impatience, irritability and aggression
* is arrogant, haughty, high-handed, and a know-all
* often has an overwhelming, unhealthy and narcissistic attention-seeking need to portray themselves as a wonderful, kind, caring and compassionate person, in contrast to their behaviour and treatment of others; the bully sees nothing wrong with their behavior and chooses to remain oblivious to the discrepancy between how they like to be seen and how they are seen by others
* is spiritually dead although may loudly profess some religious belief or affiliation
* is mean-spirited, officious, and often unbelievably petty
* is mean, stingy, and financially untrustworthy
* is greedy, selfish, a parasite and an emotional vampire
* is always a taker and never a giver
* is convinced of their superiority and has an overbearing belief in their qualities of leadership but cannot distinguish between leadership (maturity, decisiveness, assertiveness, co-operation, trust, integrity) and bullying (immaturity, impulsiveness, aggression, manipulation, distrust, deceitfulness)
* often fraudulently claims qualifications, experience, titles, entitlements or affiliations which are ambiguous, misleading, or bogus
* often misses the semantic meaning of language, misinterprets what is said, sometimes wrongly thinking that comments of a satirical, ironic or general negative nature apply to him or herself
* knows the words but not the song
* is constantly imposing on others a false reality made up of distortion and fabrication
* sometimes displays a seemingly limitless demonic energy especially when engaged in attention-seeking activities or evasion of accountability and is often a committeeaholic or apparent workaholic

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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. The bully description sounds just like Karl Rove.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. That's how all the NeoCons operate.
Pretty revealing, huh? We need to know our enemies!
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
2. A brief overview of possible health consequences:
What does bullying do to my health?

Bullying causes injury to health and makes you ill. How many of these symptoms do you have?

* constant high levels of stress and anxiety
* frequent illness such as viral infections especially flu and glandular fever, colds, coughs, chest, ear, nose and throat infections (stress plays havoc with your immune system)
* aches and pains in the joints and muscles with no obvious cause; also back pain with no obvious cause and which won't go away or respond to treatment
* headaches and migraines
* tiredness, exhaustion, constant fatigue
* sleeplessness, nightmares, waking early, waking up more tired than when you went to bed
* flashbacks and replays, obsessiveness, can't get the bullying out of your mind
* irritable bowel syndrome
* skin problems such as eczema, psoriasis, athlete's foot, ulcers, shingles, urticaria
* poor concentration, can't concentrate on anything for long
* bad or intermittently-functioning memory, forgetfulness, especially with trivial day-to-day things
* sweating, trembling, shaking, palpitations, panic attacks
* tearfulness, bursting into tears regularly and over trivial things
* uncharacteristic irritability and angry outbursts
* hypervigilance (feels like but is not paranoia), being constantly on edge
* hypersensitivity, fragility, isolation, withdrawal
* reactive depression, a feeling of woebegoneness, lethargy, hopelessness, anger, futility and more
* shattered self-confidence, low self-worth, low self-esteem, loss of self-love, etc


Much more information about health damage due to bullying can be found at:
http://www.bullyonline.org/stress/health.htm
Topics:
Stress
Ill-health symptoms caused by stress and bullying
Fight or flight: the stress response
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS or ME)
Psychiatric injury | Reactive depression | The mental health trap
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) | Suicide


and resulting trauma at:
http://www.bullyonline.org/stress/ptsd.htm
Topics:
Definition of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder - what is PTSD?
DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
Causes of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
Complex PTSD, PDSD and bullying
Mapping the health effects of bullying onto the diagnostic criteria for PTSD
Common symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)
Associated symptoms of PTSD - survivor guilt etc
New! Transformation
The difference between mental breakdown and stress breakdown
Differences between mental illness and psychiatric injury
Features of Complex PTSD specific to bullying, especially feelings of guilt
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and fatigue
Incidence of PTSD and Complex PTSD in the general population
Legal aspects of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
Bullying causes PTSD: the legal case
Complex PTSD and stress, especially stress at work
David Kinchin's book Post Traumatic Stress Disorder: the invisible injury
Tim Field's book Bully in sight validates the experience of psychological violence
Recommended reading on PTSD | Bookshops | Articles on PTSD
Seminars on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and recovery
Links to PTSD, Complex PTSD and trauma sites

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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. As I've suggested in other posts on the subject...
... this is the legacy created for us by people such as Karl Rove. The people involved in this conceived of it as an us-and-them political battle, simply because Andy was welcome here. That made him an enemy to be destroyed, and when his weakness from illness became apparent to them, they sought, as do bullies, to exploit it.

The only important thing in life is winning, Mr. Rove has taught them, and they wanted to win this very badly (perhaps, in part, because they have spent their entire lives losing--that's why they identify with people who have no moral basis in life except winning at all costs).

What did they gain? Nothing. The political differences are still there. Some of the people involved in attempting to disrupt Andy's life and his medical care may find themselves facing criminal charges because of their actions. What they demonstrated, most of all, however, were their own weaknesses--of mind and of spirit.

They embraced pettiness, they cloaked themselves in an intellectually masturbatory righteousness which had no meaning in larger society and which was based on lies, they described their actions as if they were members of an outrageous cult, and showed themselves for what they truly are--brutish, proudly ignorant, intolerant and aimlessly vindictive--just like their heroes. They are the damned, not Andy. Where Andy sought to bring a little sunlight into the essentially democratic act of voting, they, in attacking him, sought to hide in the dark corners of criminality--just like their heroes. They lied, and then attacked the truth--just like their heroes.

They are not leaders, but, rather, are the petty followers of the worst in this fractured society of ours. They praise bad men, and in doing so, become bad men themselves, out of loyalty and allegiance to corruption, wishing only to emulate their heroes and thereby obtain some faint reflected luminance which only they can discern.

Like some of their heroes, they may be going to jail soon.







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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I've really appreciated your posts that I've read on this topic.
Especially those that suggest that there will be legal reprisals for these goons. Thank you for what you've posted here. The glaring difference between those who love and those who envy love (because they have none) was never so obvious as it has been in Andy's tragic case.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Goons always work for someone else...
... don't they, either metaphorically or literally?

And, yeah, I think criminal charges ought to be the focus of effort from now on, because there's evident cause for same. If these little pricks had just restricted their activities to complaining, I wouldn't be saying this. But, some of them crossed a line or two set by law, for no other reason than to impress each other.

The Brownshirts thought they could act with impunity, too.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. First they counted on exploiting Andy's illness. Now, they're
counting on our grief.

I want to disappoint them.
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belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
35. great post.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:18 AM
Response to Original message
5. A theorist I admire once wrote that she thought love originates
in gratitude. And she posited envy as the opposite of gratitude.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. How interesting and beautiful.
And especially when one thinks of specific circumstances of envy, that lack of gratitude does seem obvious, doesn't it.

Thanks for posting that!
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:25 AM
Response to Original message
6. As one who has been bullied, I appreciate this list.
I also recognize Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame match the qualifications. Not to mention Howard Dean.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Me too.
When I first found that website, it took about a week to get my jaw up off the floor. Decades of being bullied ... with the disastrous health results to show for it.

I see Progressives, in general, in the first list. How many here on DU can spot themselves here?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. When you think about it, Rove's whole career has depended
upon being a skillful bully. The list of victims is long (especially if you count the American public.)

The rules have changed, apparently, for civil political discourse.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. How familiar do these sound?
Two of the traits of the serial bully.
From: http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm

* wraps himself or herself in a flag or tradition and usurps others' objectives, thereby nurturing compliance, reverence, deference, endorsement and obeisance; however, such veneration and allegiance is divisive, being a corruption for personal power which exhibits itself through the establishment of a clique, coterie, cabal, faction, or gang

* an unwillingness to conform to the rules of society: thinks that rules, regulations, procedures and the law do not apply to them - but insists that others adhere rigidly

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Exactly. And you know, it's not possible to be destructive of
others without being self destructive. It's just not. So, there's a kind of blunted awareness that is a characteristic of these personalities. Like setting a room on fire and watching everyone else burn -- without realizing that you're in the same room.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. So true.
Their hatred and bitterness must also be destroying them.
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
12. I said it before andI'l say it again...
A bunch of the PNAC letter signers graduated from the college of political corruption at John's Hopkins.

(They probably have a chapter of Skull and Bones nearby, too.)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:46 AM
Response to Original message
13. Apart from the serious consequences for Andy,
the creepiest thing to see wasn't so much the ringleaders. But to watch a number of people log in at those other places, eager to hear the "latest". They were sucked in by claims of fraud and that's sort of understandable.

But, as the days went by and everything went forward and there was no fraud, they kept logging in and treating it as some kind of social activity, like playing bingo or something. And during the whole process, they completely objectified Andy and his illness. It was sort of horrible to watch all by itself.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Cruelty as sport
with zero empathy or conscience.

I’m glad I stayed away from those sites, but grateful to those who braved the slime to learn what was necessary about those sociopaths.
How they can live with themselves, I'll never know. Especially, as you wrote, since they pursued harming him even after it became clear that he was in fact gravely ill.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. The only way they can is to deny what they did.
There is no other way. Justification won't hold up. They have to deny it wholesale.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. At least there's evidence.
I really appreciate that you've been gathering as much as you can.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. There is a whole team of people who tried to document as much
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 04:31 AM by sfexpat2000
as possible without upsetting everyone in the process.

Let's see how we do.

On edit: Thanks, nicknameless. Long week.
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:01 AM
Response to Original message
15. I thank you for posting about the bully mentality
I can understand what the explanations are, but could never, in a million years, understand why someone would give in to the ugliness of acting on these impulses. I do not understand how a person can be a Karl Rove, and live with himself.

There is something that most of us are born with, some kind of moral imperative to resist being cruel, that these people are either lacking at birth, or make a determined effort to block as they go through life.

I will always believe that they had a huge part in bringing about Andy's death, by such actions as delaying his critical medical treatment, and in spreading their venom so thickly over him, and the ones he loved and cared about, that he could not devote himself to the enormous task of healing.

I hope that each and every one of them pay the maximum price allowed by law for what they did. Andy was such a valuable human being, and taught us so much about dedication, and doing what was right; about keeping on in spite of seemingly insurmountable odds, and about love, and caring.

I hope that one way we can exact justice is to carry on the fight Andy started, and never, ever forget him.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. It's impossible to really, fully understand when people are that deranged.
Andy will never be forgotten, and his fight will go on through those of us who have picked up his torch. VOTER-VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS!!!
:hug:
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. You don't understand these people...
...because you are a sane person. You don't need to bully.

Bullies come down to your standard control freaks one way or another. Why are some people control freaks? Because they feel out of control or are discontent in their own life.

These people are the same people who are either severely repressed or are addicts - pick your drug: alcohol, drugs, sex, power, religion... all filling holes in their life. They bring pain to others because they're suffering.

All that said, I am still completely apalled at the behavior of those folks - I really can't believe anybody would be that rabid to go after Andy that way. It tears me up to think they may actually have succeeded in killing Andy - and that even worse, they would think nothing of killing any one of us.

I don't want to live in a society where it's okay to kill people through this kind of torment. I don't want this to be reality. Same folks who think nothing of killing our troops and all those Iraqi civilians. Sick, sick people.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. "... how a person can be a Karl Rove, and live with himself."
ninkasi said:
"I do not understand how a person can be a Karl Rove, and live with himself."

It's b/c they don't have a conscience. People like that are sub-human vermin. They truly act like lower animals.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #26
51. But that in itself begs the question...
Edited on Tue Jul-19-05 12:48 AM by Raksha
...it's NORMAL to have a conscience--isn't it? I've always believed that a person without a conscience is a psychopath--and yes, I've known some in real life--and that being a psychopath means being mentally ill. I've heard that it's one of the most difficult mental illnesses to treat, because the individual doesn't suffer and doesn't think they have a problem.

Hell, I'd suffer if I were Karl Rove or one these bastards who stalked Andy and his friends. I almost said, "that's why I'm not one of them" but then I thought it's not the only reason. The thing is, I would never even have the desire to stalk and torment a sick man, regardless of his political beliefs. It's not even something I have to repress because I don't have any desire to behave that way.

Now I am NOT claiming to be a saint! I can understand anger and hatred and even revenge. I have a famously short fuse and I have to struggle with the cyber-equivalent of road rage constantly. When someone hurts me I ALWAYS want to pay them back. But deliberate cruelty to someone who hasn't hurt me? I just can't understand how anyone could even want to do that, much less make a hobby out of it the way these stalkers did.

I seem to be going around in circles here, because every attempt to understand just begs the question.

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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 05:10 AM
Response to Original message
24. Randi Rhodes has talked about the bitterness so many of the NeoCons feel
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 05:30 AM by nicknameless
about their childhoods.

From http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm

Introduction to the serial bully

Embittered by an abusive upbringing, seething with resentment, irritated by others' failure to fulfil his or her superior sense of entitlement, and fuelled by anger resulting from rejection, the serial bully displays an obsessive, compulsive and self-gratifying urge to displace their uncontrolled aggression onto others whilst exhibiting an apparent lack of insight into their behavior and its effect on people around them. Jealousy and envy motivate the bully to identify a competent and popular individual who is then controlled and subjugated through projection of the bully's own inadequacy and incompetence. When the target asserts their right not to be bullied, a paranoid fear of exposure compels the bully to perceive that person as a threat and hence neutralise and dispose of them as quickly as possible. Once a person has been eliminated there's an interval of between 2 days and 2 weeks before the bully chooses another target and the cycle starts again.


(I'm assuming that the part about eliminating the victim is done through firing, since this is primarily a site about workplace bullying.)
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. Wow, I recognize someone I used to know on another forum.
He was a definite serial bully. It was sickening.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. I would think that a lot DUers would recognize the traits of a number of
people in their lives. I believe that Progressives, in general, exhibit characteristics in the first list, and therefore may attract bullies.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. I'm also very sensitive...that attracts bullies like crazy.
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 10:19 PM by Ladyhawk
The moderator at the other forum told me it was my fault for getting upset. :) Hehehehe...funny, that.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Ah, the old "blame the victim" strategy.
In my experience, those who blame the victims also fear the bullies. It's easier to blame the one who probably won't fight back, the one who will probably go away quietly. UGH!!!!!

And being hyper-sensitive can really be a liability. Bullies are opportunistic and will definitely use that against their prey. :hug:
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 05:17 AM
Response to Original message
25. More familiar bully traits.
Detailed profile of the serial bully

The serial bully also:

* is selfish and acts out of self-interest, self-aggrandisement and self-preservation at all times; everything can be traced back to the self - even the seemingly innocuous "How are you today?" translates to "Is there any comeback on me as to how you're feeling today?"
* is insensitive, often callously indifferent to the needs of others, and especially when others are experiencing difficulty (vulnerability is a major stimulant to the serial bully)
* is incapable of reciprocity, ie unable and unwilling to reciprocate any positive gesture
* sees anyone attempting to be conciliatory as a sucker to be exploited
* uses criticism, humiliation, etc in the guise of addressing shortfalls in performance - in reality, these are for control and subjugation, not for performance enhancement
* appears to be intelligent but often performs poorly in academic or professional roles, despite appearances; the intelligence is focused exclusively on deviousness, cunning, scheming, manipulation, evasiveness, deceptiveness, quick-wittedness, craftiness, self-centredness, etc
* may be passive aggressive, blowing hot and cold, superficially cooperative but motivated by retribution, stubborn, uncoachable, use their intelligence to excuse and justify their behaviour, and they detest anyone more competent than themselves - which is most people
* is unable to maintain confidentiality, often breaching it with misrepresentation, distortion and fabrication
* distorts, twists, concocts and fabricates criticisms and allegations, and abuses the disciplinary procedures - again, for control and subjugation, not for performance enhancement
* uses gossip, back-stabbing or spreads rumours to undermine, discredit and isolate
* is untrustworthy and unable to trust others - this partly explains the compulsion for excessive monitoring
* is drawn to positions of power and abuses that power
* alters the employer's procedures to make it difficult or impossible for others to hold the bully accountable using those procedures
* is autocratic and dictatorial, often using phrases like "you shouldn't..." or "you ought to..."
* may appear superficially competent and professional at their job, but behind the facade is inadequate, inept, poor at their job, often incompetent; survives only by plagiarising other people's work, and being carried by those they bully
* wraps himself or herself in a flag or tradition and usurps others' objectives, thereby nurturing compliance, reverence, deference, endorsement and obeisance; however, such veneration and allegiance is divisive, being a corruption for personal power which exhibits itself through the establishment of a clique, coterie, cabal, faction, or gang
* is a divisive and disruptive influence, their departments are dysfunctional and inefficient, and their behavior prevents staff from performing their duties
* is unusually susceptible to minor slights or perceived slights and bears grudges which may be acted on years later when the transgressor can be denied promotion or downsized in the bully's "reorganisation"
* gains gratification from provoking people into emotional or irrational responses but is quick to claim provocation by others when challenged
* has a short-term focus and often cannot think or plan ahead more than 24 hours
* appears to have a short, selective memory and often cannot or will not remember what they said, did, or committed to more than 24 hours ago - but is always able to remember your faults, often from years ago
* the serial bully seems to live in a bubble of the present and when challenged will spontaneously make things up; the bully genuinely seems to believe the fabrication; from a psychiatric viewpoint this could be called confabulation; from a moral viewpoint, it's called lying
* is often like a child who has never grown up
* exhibits immature behaviour and poor manners
* has poor communication skills, poor interpersonal skills, poor social skills
* often misses social cues
* has poor language skills, and uses almost exclusively negative language with few or no positive words; is often limited to parroting fad phrases and regurgitating the latest management jargon
* has poorly-defined moral and ethical boundaries
* acts out of gratification and self-interest only, often using and hiding behind the employer
* extrovert bullies tend to be shouters and screamers, are highly visible, and bully from the front
* extrovert bullies can be charismatic and seem to be able to bewitch people into following and supporting them
* introvert bullies - the most dangerous types - tend to sit in the background and recruit others to do the bullying for them - when dealing with this type of bullying, identify the arch-bully in the background and focus single-mindedly on that person - the others will melt away
* is a killjoy, a wet blanket, is unreceptive and finds fault with or pours scorn on other people's ideas and suggestions, but may regurgitate them later claiming to be the originator
* often has a hatred of a sector of society, eg ethnic minorities, disabled people, etc
* often has a hatred of certain professional groups, eg psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, counsellors, therapists
* is unimaginative and lacks the skills of creativity and innovation
* rarely has any ideas of his or her own; tends to regurgitate what others (especially superiors) say rather than use own thinking
* is a plagiarist, steals other people's work - and the credit for it
* has a writing style that is disjointed, lacks flow and consistency, tends to make contradictory statements, and has the feel of a young teenager trying to write like a grown-up (apologies to teenagers)
* often uses false praise or praise which is inappropriate to the circumstances; this is partly to make the bully feel good, partly for the benefit of witnesses, partly poor judgement, partly immaturity, and partly for control and subjugation to throw their target off guard
* is unable and unwilling to value others and their contributions and achievements; is often scornful
* shows discrepancy in valuing tasks, deliberately devaluing the work and achievements of others; when the bully does a certain job, it's onerous, difficult and the bully needs lots of recognition; when their target does the same job it's trivial, of little or no value, not worth mentioning
* is ungrateful and rarely (if ever) says "thank you" or "well done" (except, perhaps, if impressionable witnesses are present)
* is frequently sarcastic, especially in contexts where sarcasm is inappropriate and unprofessional
* is unable to assess the importance of events and tasks, often making an unnecessary fuss over trivia whilst ignoring important or urgent things
* exhibits duplicity and hypocrisy, eg says one thing one day and denies it the next
* often has an overwhelming (and unhealthy) need to feel recognised and wanted
* is fastidious, often has an unhealthy obsession with cleanliness or orderliness
* is insincere and false
* has never learnt the skills of and has little concept of empathy; may use charm and mimicry to compensate
* attempts at empathy are superficial, amateur, often inappropriate or inappropriately high, and based on mimicry rather than genuine concern - and are for the purpose of making the bully look and feel good, especially in front of witnesses
* when required to show empathy, eg someone is in distress or needs help, responds either with impatience and aggression (if no-one else is present), or with a fulsome and effusive attempt at empathy (if witnesses are present)
* is unwilling to apologise for mistakes, except occasionally when witnesses are present, then the apology is fulsome, artificial, and inappropriate - but sufficiently convincing for peers and superiors
* is quick to blame others
* is uncharacteristically fulsome and effusive, especially in front of witnesses - but hollow and insincere
* is devious and manipulative (especially female bullies)
* is spiteful and vengeful (ditto)
* uses aggression almost exclusively but claims to be assertive (assertiveness is about recognising and respecting the rights of oneself and others)
* has unpredictable mood swings, blows hot and cold, often suddenly and without warning
* is inconsistent in their judgement, often overruling, ignoring or denying what they said previously
* is inflexible and unable to evaluate options and alternatives
* is unforgiving and often seizes on and exploits others' mistakes or perceived mistakes
* is financially irresponsible and often has a bad credit rating
* has a cavalier attitude to Health and Safety
* is quick to anger and often has an unpredictable temper
* can be unpredictably and disarmingly pleasant, especially when you are unmasking them in front others - this plays on people's sympathies and is a use of guilt for manipulation and control
* is often humourless and emotionally flat; attempts at humour are often shallow and superficial
* is insecure and sees others as a threat; the threat seems to comprise a fear of exposure of inadequacy, and often borders on paranoia; the individual may have a paranoid personality
* is uncommunicative and uncooperative, and is evasive when asked for information (eg by subordinates)
* for communication, often relies excessively or exclusively on memos, emails, yellow stickies, or third parties and other strategies for avoiding face-to-face contact
* has no listening skills, ignores and overrules you; it can be like talking to a brick wall
* displays inappropriate and hostile body language
* makes inappropriate eye contact, either too little (or none at all) or too much (staring)
* often reported as having an evil stare, sometimes with eyes that appear black rather than coloured
* is unable to sustain a mature adult conversation (you may only realise this in retrospect)
* sees people as objects (in the same way that child sex abusers and rapists see their targets as objects for their gratification)
* often displays interpersonal behavior that is ill-advised, especially with a sexual overtone, eg invasion of intimate zone, gestures or comments which include inappropriate sexual references or innuendo, being inappropriately intimate with clients, being too friendly too soon, etc
* is incapable of intimacy
* lacks a conscience and shows no remorse
* displays excessive and rigid adherence to procedures, rules, regulations etc, usually as a cover for lack of creativity; their work is largely bureaucratic in nature and obedience of orders from above is a priority
* finds ritual important and comforting, and frequently indulges in ritual and ritualistic activity
* often forms or joins lots of committees to look busy and important but never achieves anything of significance or value
* when called upon to exercise judgement, relies on and insists on rigid adherence to procedures and rules (this is an abdication of responsibility and an admission of inability to manage)
* gains gratification from bullying people by imposing rules, regulations, laws etc and insisting on adherence thereto, regardless of their relevance or efficacy
* often exhibits a psychopathic personality, the main features of which are:

* an unwillingness to conform to the rules of society: thinks that rules, regulations, procedures and the law do not apply to them - but insists that others adhere rigidly
* an inability to tolerate minor frustrations
* a tendency to act impulsively, recklessly and randomly
* an inability to form stable relationships (the bully's private life is usually a mess)
* an inability or unwillingness to learn from past experience, however unpleasant - this "learning blindness" is a key feature of the serial bully and differentiates the serial bully from the unwitting bully; this inability to learn seems to be concentrated in the area of interpersonal, social, communication and behavioural skills; closer inspection suggests that the bully does learn from experience, but only how be more secretive and how to be more skilled at evading accountability

Other adjectives to describe the serial bully include cunning, conniving, scheming, calculating, cruel, sadistic, ruthless, treacherous, premeditated, exploitative, pernicious, malevolent, obnoxious, opportunist, unconcerned, etc.

The lack of interpersonal, social, and empathic skills are reminiscent of autism; the serial bully relies almost entirely on rules, procedures, aggression, denial and mimicry to hide their lack of people skills. Psychopaths and sociopaths are often excellent actors and mimics.

Most people with this profile are incompetent at their job and the bullying is intended to hide this incompetence. However, a few recent cases suggest that some serial bullies (especially the quiet ones):

* are good at carrying out rule-based or procedurally-oriented jobs which require no free thinking or imagination; these people fall down when required to step outside this role, eg dealing with people
* (especially males) excel in one area of work (usually scientific in nature) and may be regarded as the leading authority in their field but are lacking in almost every other respect, especially in interpersonal skills (this is reminiscent of savant syndrome); they also tend to be physically aggressive and may have a reputation for sexual harassment
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Good God!
That is a perfect description of "our leader."
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. Yep. "Our leader" and the rest of the cabal. n/t
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
27. They are just screwed up children
plain and simple. No one ever raised them with empathy or love or with any example of compassion. They learned early to hate themselves, so that now it is easy to spread that hatred around.

They don't understand any rules. They don't have any sort of shame or guilt. They live for the thrill of hurting other people. This is what makes them feel "alive." Like Hitlers, every one, demeaning and degrading and destroying others to get that "high" of feeling superior and "smart" and cruel.

If there is any hell, they are destined to reside there when their end comes.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
46. "They are just screwed up children"
Exactly!

But a number of us were raised by sociopaths and consciously *chose* to be different! These people chose instead to perpetuate the abuse. It's a conscious choice they've made.
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Janice325 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
28. WOW!
Thanks for your posts in this thread about "serial bullies," nicknameless. In reading this thread, I realized why I am so unhappy at my current job. The traits you list for the serial bully can be applied, IMO, to my current boss, while I believe I have about 90% of the personal traits that bullies find irresistible.
Wow, again. Who would've thunk I'd have found a major answer to one of my biggest problems at the DU on a thread about "Andy's stalkers..."
What an eye opener.
Again, thanks, nicknameless. For months I've been following the "Andy story" with horror and disbelief,that is, disbelief that there are people capable of behaving so f**ckingly badly toward Andy.
Wow for the last time. :puke:
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. I originally planned to post this info on a thread about health issues.
Andy's situation is just one angle for looking at bullies.
I believe that Progressives generally are irresistible targets for bullies. As you've posted, you see yourself having 90% of the qualities of the people they go after.

Bullies are opportunistic cowards, not unlike mean kids on a playground, who look for those who "won't hit back."

I really recommend going to the actual website, BullyOnLine.org. because there is a wealth of information that's truly eye-opening.

I'm glad you've found it helpful for understanding your work situation too. :hi:
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Janice325 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #39
57. Thanks, nicknameless!
Edited on Tue Jul-19-05 06:33 PM by Janice325
I'll check out that link.
:hi: back atcha!
Edited to ask, "nicknameless, are you a psychologist or something, or someone involved with the mental health profession?"
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Involved with mental health issues ...
Edited on Tue Jul-19-05 09:17 PM by nicknameless
Yes ... but not by choice. I just became inadvertently involved in mental health issues because of over-exposure to sociopaths and bullies.

It's kind of amazing to see how the bully/prey dynamic is operating all over the place -- globally, nationally, personally. Sort of weirdly fascinating and tragic at the same time.

Edited to add: You're very welcome! Thank you so much for contributing to this thread! I really appreciate your adding your personal experience and perspective here.
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belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
30. And many of those are wonderful characteristics, of course...
Maybe the way to get rid of bullying is to encourage such terrific people to keep and cherish those characteristics, with the exception of:

* a tendency to self-deprecation, indecisiveness, deference and approval seeking
* low assertiveness
* quick to apologise when accused, even if not guilty (this is a useful technique for defusing an aggressive customer or potential road rage incident)
* higher-than-average levels of dependency, naivety and guilt
* a tendency to internalise anger rather than express it (at least sometimes)
* difficulty saying no

Meanwhile, as someone who hasn't posted here in a good while, can I just add my voice to the chorus: I am horrified by the story of what happened to Andy Stephenson. I can't imagine anyone sick enough to interfere with an ill man's treatment for anything, much less cancer. And no, "we thought he was faking" is *no* excuse, none. You just. don't. *do* that. it's none of your goddam business. I can't imagine even *thinking* of such a thing, even if it was my worst enemy and I had serious reason to believe s/he was malingering. where the hell did these people grow up? raised by wolves??
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. Wolves are nicer.
You're right about the qualities we could do without.
I especially feel that the suppression of emotions, like anger, really devastate a person's health and their life in general.
Why we do that, and why we don't value ourselves enough to begin with, might be revealed in the section they have on "family bullying."
http://www.bullyonline.org/related/family.htm

This website has been tremendously valuable for me, and I hoped that it would be for others as well.
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Janice325 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
58. Aw, crap, belle
I have all those charactheristics as well.
I better go check out BullyOnLine.org as nicknameless suggested.
Thanks, DU'ers.
Yesterday and today has been an eye opener for me regarding this thread.
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
32. psychopaths
You should read books on psychopaths.

Here's one you could start with -

Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us by Robert D. Hare

Criminal psychology is a hobby of mine. Sadly, too many of these "psychopaths" worm their way into positions of power and therefore get away with their crimes.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
42. You wrote:
"Sadly, too many of these "psychopaths" worm their way into positions of power and therefore get away with their crimes."

Don't they, though. It's almost surprising to not find actual photos of PNAC signatories and other NeoCons at that website.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
34. They looked at the situation as a game, not as reality.
They are so whacked out that they can't tell the difference between a computer game and a seriously ill person in need of help. It was totally irresponsible for them to get involved with this, they contributed to Andy's passing.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. It really is a game to them
It's like a video game and the objective is to beat the opponent down at any cost. So I think of them as having a video game mentality when they come online.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. Truly sociopathic individuals.
No compassion, no empathy, no conscience, no honesty, no remorse, no responsibility, no ethics ...............

Shocking to many, but people like that really do exist.
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #34
54. exactly

Some of them really seem delusional...other people's lives are a game to them.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
43. This is what I don't get
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 08:20 PM by bluestateguy
Andy's friends never asked any of them (the CUers, Freepers or other internet conservatives) for money. It was mostly an in-house operation, confined to DU and a few other liberal websites. Nobody was taxed or forced to pay anything. We kept it within the family, because Andy was family to so many people here.

Yet somehow it was their business how we raised money for a friend in need. These people, who could have cared a whit if Andy lived or died (and probably wanted him to die), demanded documentation, receipts, records and evidence to prove that there was not a scam. The burden of proof was placed on Andy and his friends to prove they were NOT running a scam. But I guess that's how the Right does justice in this country. Every time documents and evidence were provided they said it was not enough and they kept demanding more and more and more. It reminded me a lot of the Whitewater investigation ten years ago ("Oh these documents just raise more questions than they answer...").

But I digress. What if it was a scam? Then why should they care, much less try and stop the fund raising effort. Why not less us DUmmies get what's coming to us by having all of our money pissed away. Why should they care? There are frauds and scams all over the internet (ever get one of those Nigeria bank scam e-mails?), with much more compelling evidence of foul play. Why not go after them, if they care so much about rooting out internet fraud?

I can only conclude that this was a concerted effort to deprive a man of medical care because they hated what he represented and they wanted to silence him.

These people have blood on their hands and they will answer to God for their crimes.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. My personal opinion:
What went on here, in 11 brief but miraculous days, was an outpouring of love, compassion, caring, generosity, kindness and outright heroism for one amazing individual.

The response from the other side: envy.
These are bitter, resentful people, who are driven by hatred and greed. Everything about the NeoCon agenda is hostility, greed and abusiveness. They target the weak, the poor, the infirmed, minorities, women, animals, the environment, innocents in nations that can't effectively fight back. All of those whom they perceive to be weaker than they are. ... They also target those whom they see as being more ethical than they are. Schoolyard bullies going after those that they don't think will hit them back.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
49. It was projection
Edited on Tue Jul-19-05 12:11 AM by Minstrel Boy
They could imagine only a scam. It is what they do. Their relations and their politics are defined by deceit and larceny.

They're a bunch of grifters who think everyone else is either on the take, or are suckers.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. I totally agree with how you’ve characterized them.
What motivated them to go after Andy may have begun as a projection of their own scummy qualities onto the DU fund-raiser.
But it became clear very quickly that Andy was truly, seriously ill. They got their “proof,” but that wasn’t what they were after. They wanted to put a stop to what was being done here for other, much more nefarious reasons. These are mentally disturbed individuals.

Beth witnessed (and was subjected to) firsthand their twisted impulses. Her article at this link is very revealing: http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_elizabet_050714_the_stalking_of_andy.htm

Sick, sick, sick people, whose actions took a tragic toll on our Andy.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. Yessir, I so agree with you.
And that goes hand in hand with the tone being set from the top.
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #49
55. of course
Edited on Tue Jul-19-05 01:22 AM by Rich Hunt
People reveal their character and private habits through what they're quick to accuse others of.
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NancyG Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
53. Interesting that Rove is brought up in this thread.
I believe that Karl Rove himself was bullied as a child.

It kind of fits his MO, how he takes what is positive or negative, and flips it. He took Kerry's positives and made them negative, like his military background.

This is in no way to defend Rove; I relish this scandal taking down the administration.

I find it helpful to understand one's enemy, unlike how Repukes don't care why al qaeda attacked us.

Would Rove having been bullied as a child have anything to do why he became the person he is today?

Don't mean to hijack a thread on Andy. I can't believe he's gone. Malloy's second hour is about to begin on the Quake, and I will get to listen to his tribute to Andy.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. Rove and the rest of the NeoCons fit the description perfectly.
FWIW, the NeoCons being bullied as children is a pet theory of Randi Rhodes'.

Please don't worry about hijacking this thread. I would really like people to recognize the macrocosm/microcosm aspect of this dynamic. What's going on in the world, the nation and in their own personal lives. Bullies and their prey. And especially, the resulting health issues.
:hi:
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