Looking for info to debunk "French are weak" claim...

[Dawgs]

I've recently been getting emails that make fun of the French. Does anyone know of any articles that debunk this talking point of the right?

It's really starting to piss me off.

EMAIL--------------
Dateline Paris:

AP and UPI reported today that the French government announced that it has raised its terror alert level from "Run" to "Hide."

The only two higher levels in France are "Surrender" and "Collaborate."

The raise was precipitated by a recent fire which destroyed France's white flag factory, thereby disabling its military.
-------------------

[bicentennial_baby]

1. Uh...tell them to read a history book

World War I would be a good start...sigh.


Remember Lafayette! Without him, we'd still be British!

[podnoi]

133. How about... um... using one's head? Instead of penis pride...

After having traveled to a number of other countries I am coming to the conclusion that we seem to be loosing in the battle of wits. We are great salespeople but lacking in a lot of other areas such as deeper wisdom. (on edit: DU excluded of course ;)

[Burma Jones]

2. They fought pretty damn hard in WWI

Napoleon was no slouch either. Their Viet Nam experience made them a lot more cautious. And anyway, they have nukes now......

[brainshrub]

3. Google: WWI, French Foreign Legion, Algeria or Napoleon.

[smoogatz]

11. The foreign legion

is made up in large part of non-French citizens. It doesn't count.

[brainshrub]

19. I guess you're right, but they are bad-asses.

[Yupster]

98. In the 1950's and late 40's

the French Foreign Legion was full of former Waffen SS soldiers.

They were bad asses for sure.

Check out the book "Devil's Guard".

It's about an all German French Foreign Legion unit which served in Vietnam fighting for France. It was almost all SS soldiers led by SS offices and German speaking. They kicked serious utt, but didn't fight according to any rules so were eventually disbanded.

In WWI, the French lost a whole generation in the trenches. The population had not recovered by WWII, which is part of the reason for France's terible performance in that war.

[alcibiades_mystery]

102. Many of the Germans in the French Foreign Legion after WWII

had been pressganged into service through the use of resource deprivation in the French controlled POW camps: sign up for a Legion stint, get food and blankets. Don't sign up...tut mir leid. Recruiting was vigorous. But I believe you're wrong about officers. You must be French to serve as an officer in the French foreign legion, as far as I know. Many Germans did serve as NCO's, however.

[alcibiades_mystery]

90. Foreign Legion has all French officers

Bzzzzt.

[bleedingheart]

4. The French people had the smarts to behead the people

who starved them.... way smarter than the morons in this country who keep voting for people who deny them a living wage and national healthcare.

[getmeouttahere]

9. Yours is my favorite response, bleedingheart

[bleedingheart]

thank you....

:-)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

73. Interesting. Do you actually believe the last three elections were....

...conducted fairly and honestly?

Maybe you still believe America is a democracy, too.

[smoogatz]

5. Well, there was Napoleon

But in the last hundred years or so, things haven't gone so well for the French militarily. Sorry. They do make terrific wines and cheeses, though. And of course they were right about Iraq's WMD.

[Spider Jerusalem]

28. Does Napoleon count?

He was Corsican, his ancestry was Italian, his best troops were Polish.

[Mass]

52. More importantly, he was a tyrant

If this is the image we like, we are fine with Bush.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

72. "His best troops were Polish"? I didn't know the Old Guard consisted....

...of Polish nationals.

And "does Napoleon count"? He was the leader of the French Empire, why wouldn't he count?

Hmmmm. Try again.

[Spider Jerusalem]

130. You HAVE heard of the Polish Hussars, yes?

And William the Bastard was King of England, but that doesn't make him English, does it?

[getmeouttahere]

6. Their recent Bastille Day festivities would be a good start...

one of our fellow DUers mentioned that they have the most military might, behind the U.S., in the world today. But believe me, the French could care less what the freeptards think.

[Schema Thing]

"They could care less" Exactly!

The French really don't give a damn what rednecks think of them. America won't be invading France anytime soon. No one will, for that matter.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

7. Google "rwanda genocide france" n/t

[tocqueville]

25. another myth

even if i can agree that France should have intervened earlier the truth is that the Rwandan Genocide was started by the CIA

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO305A.html

From the outset of the Rwandan civil war in 1990, Washington's hidden agenda consisted in establishing an American sphere of influence in a region historically dominated by France and Belgium. America's design was to displace France by supporting the Rwandan Patriotic Front and by arming and equipping its military arm, the Rwandan Patriotic Army (RPA)

From the mid-1980s, the Kampala government under President Yoweri Musaveni had become Washington's African showpiece of "democracy". Uganda had also become a launchpad for US sponsored guerilla movements into the Sudan, Rwanda and the Congo. Major General Paul Kagame had been head of military intelligence in the Ugandan Armed Forces; he had been trained at the U.S. Army Command and Staff College (CGSC) in Leavenworth, Kansas which focuses on warfighting and military strategy. Kagame returned from Leavenworth to lead the RPA, shortly after the 1990 invasion.

Prior to the outbreak of the Rwandan civil war, the RPA was part of the Ugandan Armed Forces. Shortly prior to the October 1990 invasion of Rwanda, military labels were switched. From one day to the next, large numbers of Ugandan soldiers joined the ranks of the Rwandan Patriotic Army (RPA). Throughout the civil war, the RPA was supplied from United People's Defense Forces (UPDF) military bases inside Uganda. The Tutsi commissioned officers in the Ugandan army took over positions in the RPA. The October 1990 invasion by Ugandan forces was presented to public opinion as a war of liberation by a Tutsi led guerilla army.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

33. Bullshit.

France's role in the genocide is well-documented. Globalresearch is a bullshit website. They're still running the completely discredited story of 4000 unreported US troop deaths on their front page.

They're also running the discredited israel-warned-in-advance-of-London-attacks story.

If you want to debate this, give me a link to a legitimate website, not a conspiracy theory clearing house.

[Taxloss]

76. Operation Turquoise protected the killers.

The French enabled terrible bloodshed.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

84. Not only that...

...they continued arming them after it was clear what was taking place.

[Minstrel Boy]

8. Dien Bien Phu

read the rollcall of heroes.

http://www.dienbienphu.org/english/

[smoogatz]

15. Shortly thereafter

the French bugged out, sticking the US with their colonial war. And it's hard to count DBP as a military success.

[Minstrel Boy]

24. It needn't count as a success to demonstrate heroism.

In fact, the opposite is often more likely.

[alcibiades_mystery]

91. Dien Bien Phu would count in NO WAYS as a military success

since the French position was overrun, and DeCastries forced to surrender his remaining forces at the garrison. However, for a story of tough as nails ground fighting, very few things in the history of modern warfare compare to the French, the Foreign Legion, and the regional forces defense of Dien Bien Phu. Read Bernard Fall's Hell in a Very Small Place for a flavor of the fighting. See also a French book by the title Je Ne Regrete Rien (after the Edith Piaf song, of course).

[opihimoimoi]

18. Read about the French Revolution....

TOOK ALOTTA GUTS TO DO WHAT THEY DID...

Even the Wives of Fishmongers(as fish cutters, they be strong and knows how to use those knives)...got into the fray....

Those who fought in WW2 were known as Le Resistance...they too had more than a normal dose of GUTS.

[Mass]

10. Not sure you can answer to that.

However, I think it is easy to be strong (or think you are) when nobody in the country has a memory of a war fought in his country, but you think more when two WW have been fought on your territory and everybody knows somebody who has been thru bombings (this is true for all of Europe, not only France, and is probably the main reason why European people in general were against Iraq, whatever their government did).

A few numbers for France:

More than 1M men killed in WWI
More than 100,000 men killed in WWII
France had to fight terrorism a long time before the States and put in place laws that the Republicans would not even bother to comtemplate (including not letting terrorism buy weapons legally, as is the case in this country).

[malmapus]

12. Yeah, Germany just did a number on France to bring this about

They actually had a good military at the start of WWII. Even had heavy tanks that put the Panzers at the time to shame in armor and fire power.

But they just didn't have Generals with enough foresight to know how to use it at the time to its potential (mixing armor among infantry like in WWI and still using old school tactics).

But still, you have the French resistance from WWII. I'd like to see these people that write stuff like that have even an ounce of the bravery it must have took to not only live under the Nazi occupation but also rise up and fight against it.

I'm sure the people that write that too think about the French problems in Vietnam, but they should remember that we didn't fare so well there either.

[Dawgs]

13. Well thanks, but WWI doesn't really when defending France now...

Al Franken read some articles last week that showed France was instrumental in helping defeat terrorism now. Does anyone know of these articles? I doubt the argument, "well France was tough over 80 years ago" will work.

[bicentennial_baby]

22. how about ignoring them?

why give such morans your time and energy? really...

[blondeatlast]

94. Right, and the Revolutionary War doesn't count when you talk about

the US.

Love the logic. :eyes:

[deutsey]

14. The French Resistance during WWII

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Resistance

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/french_resistance.htm

[smoogatz]

17. A tiny minority.

Meanwhile, the majority stood by and did nothing or actively participated in the deportation of the Jews.

[Mass]

34. I can see we have a French hater here

What did your governement against that. Nothing.

When France was invaded, they refuse to allow Jews trapped in France to leave.

[smoogatz]

46. Not at all.

I like the French a great deal. As I said in an earlier post, they make excellent wines and cheeses, and they were right about Iraq's WMD. You, on the other hand, attack me and "my government" (c. 1942, seventeen years before I was born) because I pointed out the historical facts about the behavior of the majority of the French under Nazi occupation. And your facts are wrong--while the US did, quite wrongly, restrict Jewish immigration to the US during the holocaust, they did not "refuse to allow Jews trapped in France to leave." The French did that.

[Mass]

48. Totally wrong - learn history

During the week that followed the German invasion and French capitulation, Jewish refugees rushed to the US consulates throughout France, as this was their last hope. The US refused to issue visas to most of them.

The US general Consul in Marseilles is considered a hero because, against his government's orders, he issued visas and drove refugees in Spain so that they could leave (Marseilles being in the occupied zone).

What the Vichy government did is bad enough. It did not excuse what the American government did (including hiding camps to the general public in this country).

[smoogatz]

53. Read what I said.

A US visa allows foreign nationals to travel to the US. The US government--quite wrongly--restricted Jewish immigration to the US during the holocaust. They did not actively round up French Jews, however, and send them off to concentration camps. The French did.

[Mass]

57. Right, the Vichy government did that.

This is called collaboration and is totally terrible and totally unforgettable.

This is to blame against the fascist mafia that was ruling Europe at the time and a small numbers of collaborators and anti-semits that helped them.

[tocqueville]

50. yeah they were a minority

as all resistances (how about your resistance to the British in the beginning ?)

regarding the deportation of the Jews, there were some traitors yes

but there were MORE French that saved them risking their lives

and the Jews KNOW it : http://isurvived.org/TOC-II.html

[Media_Lies_Daily]

77. What nonsense.

[alcibiades_mystery]

99. Absolute bullshit

The vast majority of French citizens under occupation were scared shitless of the vicious Nazi reprisals, but nevertheless practiced a passive resistance to Nazi oppression, including protecting Jews. A minority practiced active resistance, but could not have survived the German occupation tactics without substantial support from the populace. The very small minority were the collaborators, including those in the French government, which you seem to be confusing for the French populace at large. Treatment of collaborators was so harsh after liberation that in some cases the US and British forces had to step in to protect people from angry mobs. In fact, the Red Cross noted after the fall of South Vietnam that reprisal against collaborators in that country was historically less intense by far than that in France after World War II. You don't have a goddamn clue what you're talking about.

[smoogatz]

109. "passive resistance"

You're right--it has the ring of heroism about it. But seriously--the French didn't do much to protect their Jewish population (over a quarter of which died in the holocaust) compared to other occupied nations--like Denmark, for instance, in which nearly the entire Jewish population survived precisely because the Danish people actively protected them. Your theory about the small numbers of French collaborators is interesting but hard to support: ever heard of the 33rd Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS Charlemagne? You might give it a Google some time. The ferocity with which some collaborators were treated after the war may have had something to do with collective guilt: the Italians did the same and worse to the Fascists, as you know--the same people they'd cheered in the streets when things were going well. As for the Vietnamese, the relative lack of reprisals may have had something to do with their Buddhist heritage. It's not an eye-for-an-eye belief system.

[alcibiades_mystery]

116. Oh boy

You do know that comparing the public role and numbers of the Jewish population in France to that in Denmark is completely ridiculous, yes? (Not to mention the marked differences in the occupation strategies used by the Nazis for both countries).

In any case, I will not defend the rampant anti-semitism in French society during the early part of the century, but the comparison - even given the viciousness with which the French right wing treated Jews even prior to the Nazi invasion - seems dubious to me. Denmark also had a far better record than Holland in defending its Jewish population, but one hardly goes around regarding the Dutch as an active collaborators, despite the fact that Holland's fascists collaborated as actively as France's fascists (see Anton Mussert). That the Charlemagne division was recruited from the local right wing thugs and press-ganged POWs is fairly obvious; similar divisions were mustered from other occupied countries (including your beloved Denmark and Norway! - see the "Wiking" division), so that proves relatively little. The main charge to make would be the cooperation of French police forces in exportation, where you would have a point, if you'd bothered to make it.

As for passive resistance not being "heroic," I'm not sure what to say. The French resistance was as active as any partisan movement in occupied Europe, including the vicious fights the Nazi's had on their hands in the Balkans. Reprisals were severe. No doubt if YOU were a French citizen at the time, YOU'D stand against the Nazi guns with your fist raised and a grenade in hand, but I am at least humble and realistic enough to wonder whether I'd just whistle the Marseilles in a bar and fuck with the ration books.

[slor]

132. There was a British SS unit too...

does this detract from the entire country's effort in WWII also? You should also read about Arras, when the entire German line was about to collapse from a French tank assault, and it was only held when Rommel deployed a line of 88mm AA guns, and stopped it.

[Minstrel Boy]

16. The Battle of Verdun

http://www.war1418.com/battleverdun/

The French lost nearly half a million troops at Verdun, and it was considered a victory.

[globalvillage]

20. The American Revolution?

They were our primary ally, after all.

France, the Netherlands and Spain entered the war against Great Britain in an attempt to dilute Britain's superpower status. France officially entered the war in 1778 and soon sent troops, ships and military equipment to fight alongside the American Patriot army against the British for the remainder of the war. French military involvement in the war proved decisive, though disastrous for the French economy. France's standing army at the time is estimated to have been some 100,000. Spain entered the war in 1779, but did not recognize the new American nation and sent no troops to fight alongside the United States. The Netherlands entered the war late in 1780, but its navy and army was soon overwhelmed by the superior British Royal navy and army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

[Maine-i-acs]

35. Yes they saved OUR asses there

Tell the Wingnuts:

The French sent money when Franklin asked (A million pounds or more)

Troops and artillery too. Without a doubt they turned the tide and prevented a longer, bloodier war.

In Yorktown the French fleet bombarded the British, preventing their escape by sea, leading to their surrender and ultimatey their full defeat.

Tell the Wingnut that without the French we'd all be speaking ... well English still, but with funny accents and powdered wigs.

[julianer]

67. Oi!

I might talk funny but no one takes the piss out of my wig ;)

[fob]

61. Damn! I can't believe it took til the 20th post to mention the American

Revolution! Remind them that without the French, we'd all be speaking ENGLISH now! :evilgrin:

[julianer]

68. Without the British you

would all be speaking French. Seven year war and all that.:evilgrin:

[Minstrel Boy]

21. And there was this chick named Joan....

[MadHound]

23. This all started after WWII

Americans and others in the West made the French the butt of "surrender" jokes after the French surrendered to Hitler during the war. What these uneducated folks fail to realize is that France completely lacked the manpower to put up much of a fight during WWII because they virtually gave their all during WWI. Almost an entire generation of French young men was wiped out during WWI, over 8 million.

The high death rate worried the French officials during WWI that they started special leave for the French soldiers so that they could get the boys back from the trenches in order to impregnate their wives, girlfriends, or any female of choice, simply to insure the continuance of future generations. Yet this didn't even have the desired affect. After WWI, even with the euphoric baby boom, and a push for large families in France, the birth rate was cut almost in half from the birth rate before the war.

This stark population reality was recognized by the French during the twenties, and thus, in order to compensate for the lower numbers in the military, they created a defense that relied a lot on mechanical defenses, the Maginot line. That was rendered useless by Hitler's sweep through Belgium, and thus not having the manpower to wage an effective war, the French leader decided to spare their population and their country the ravages of a losing war, and thus surrendered.

It wasn't a popular move neither inside nor outside of France. But faced with a lack of manpower, what else could the French do? Fight to the bitter end, and watch their population and land completely devestated? Even though it wasn't a popular decision, I think in the long run it was the correct one, for it spared France from the ravages of war that it couldn't prevent from overrunning the country.

[tocqueville]

40. And the British were lucky they had an island...

Remember that the British/French Army was beaten to pieces by the Germans at Dunkirk. The reason for that was teh German superiority in warfare, while the French/British were still in WWI thinking...

the remnants of the British army were picked up by a fleet of small boats.

If you have ever seen the movie "The Battle of England", you'll understand that the Brits weren't invaded mostly because the Nazis made a serie of catastrophic strategical mistakes, one of them was to start to bomb London as a pure SNAFU.

This doesn't take anything from the courage from the Brits, but if France had been an island, maybe the fate of the war had been completely different.

A little known fact is that France and Britain created a political union inspired by Churchill and De Gaulle, to avert a German invasion.

"BRITISH OFFER OF ANGLO-FRENCH UNION, JUNE 16, 1940


At this most fateful moment in the history of the modern world the Governments of the United Kingdom and the French Republic make this declaration of indissoluble union and unyielding resolution in their common defence of justice and freedom, against subjection to a system which reduces mankind to a life of robots and slaves.

The two Governments declare that France and Great Britain shall no longer be two nations but one Franco-British Union. The constitution of the Union will provide for joint organs of defence, foreign, financial, and economic policies. Every citizen of France will enjoy immediately citizenship of Great Britain, every British subject will become a citizen of France.

Both countries will share responsibility for the repair the devastation of war, wherever it occurs in their territories, and the resources of both shall be equally, and as one, applied to that purpose.

During the war there shall be a single war Cabinet, and all the forces of Britain and France, whether on land, sea, or in the air, will be placed under its direction. It will govern from wherever it best can. The two Parliaments will be formally associated.

The nations of the British Empire are already forming new armies. France will keep her available forces in the field, on the sea, and in the air.

The Union appeals to the United States to fortify the economic resources of the Allies and to bring her powerful material aid to the common cause.

The Union will concentrate its whole energy against the power of the enemy no matter where the battle may be. And thus we shall conquer."


http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1940/400616a.html

[rinsd]

104. That theory doesn't hold water...

First there is a timeperiod of 20 year between wars.

Second, there supposed "lack of manpower" did not prevent them form actaully building the Maginot Line which was an immense project.

Third, if it was going to be manpower vs. the mechnical might of Germany, the casualties would have been even more atrocious. What France needed were even more mechnized infantry and the generals who knew how to use it.

The French defeat at the start of WW2 had more to do with the same old story, generals fighting the last war and being too slow to adapt. Something even more dangerous in the era of mechanized infantry.

Anyone who claims "surrender" etc should be reminded how dominating the German military was early on in the war. They kicked the crap out of the rest of the world for 2 years. A demoralized German army in North Africa kicked the crap out of the US in their first engagement.

I think what really sticks in people's craw about France was the Vichy government.

[MadHound]

108. Read your history friend,

And use some common sense. Eight million French died in WWI. That means that there was aprox. eight million less men to concieve children. Thus, a generation later, during WWII, there were eight million fewer French, at the start of the war, who could serve in wartime capacity.

As far as building the Maginot line, you had a much larger labor pool to draw on. You don't have to be twenty years old, in the prime of health to run a crane or build such defenses. In fact in such endeavors, age and the generally attendant wisdom in such projects is desirable.

I agree with the generally held truism about old generals fighting the last war rather than the current one. However I think that the French were showing a suprising amount of preparation and modernism with their building of the Maginot line. I think that their only shortcoming in this area was that they didn't anticipate the Germans violating Belgium neutrality and sweeping in through the side. If that had, perhaps they would have extended the line to the Atlantic coast.

And I'm not disregarding the mechanical might of the German army at all. However I think that you are disregarding the viability of the Maginot line. Remember that Hitler had so much respect for this massive defensive work that rather than try and tangle with it, he decided instead to side step it.

And while I find the actions of the Vichy government deplorable, the question still remains, what could the French do otherwise? They didn't have the manpower to resist. Their countrymen, still recovering from the ravages of WWI, would be forced to undergo a brutal and fatal occupation. They are the keepers of some of Western Civilization's most revered works of art, architecture and higher learning. What, you would rather have had the French carry on a spirited, but doomed resistance, and see the Louvre bombed to dust, with everything inside? These are the choices that the French were facing, and while I disagree with the degree of cooperation that the Vichy government displayed, I do understand why the French felt that their only way out was to surrender.

I would suggest that you do some reading on the history of WWI. The cream of a generation gave their all on the fields of France, and it is in France that the majority of fighing took place. It is impossible for any country to suffer such a devastating blow, and then be expected to do it all over again within twenty years. It just can't be done.

[rinsd]

111. A couple of things....

...first this 8 million stat, where are you getting it from?

I've found that France had 1.3M soldiers killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

Germany had even more killed. Couple that with the brutal conditions set forth by the Treaty of Versailles and wouldn't it make more sense for Germany to have beeen more affected by the "lost generation"

When calculating that number are you adding the influenze pandemic?

Also this: "As far as building the Maginot line, you had a much larger labor pool to draw on. You don't have to be twenty years old, in the prime of health to run a crane or build such defenses. In fact in such endeavors, age and the generally attendant wisdom in such projects is desirable."

This was the 20's and 30's where the strong back still played a large role in construction, if not still larger than technology's role.

[Hobarticus]

26. We should probably sell back the Louisiana Purchase, then...

and give back the Statue of Liberty, as well.

French-bashing isn't even worth replying to.

[Mizmoon]

27. They didn't have a very good century the last time around

Maybe they'll have a better showing in WW3 ...

[leesa]

29. Well, by pointing out that a military response to "terrorism" is the

weakest response one could make. It is cowardly not to face reality.

[geek tragedy]

30. The French people are brave, but French leaders have frequently

been cowards and/or bullies.

As my high school French teacher said, how many countries could start a war with Greenpeace and lose?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

78. Name a few of those French leaders that were cowards and/or bullies.

[geek tragedy]

81. How about the guy who put out a hit on Greenpeace? And don't forget

that Chirac and prior French governments have been much cozier with Saddam than even the US has been. France provided Saddam with more arms than we did, and helped a great deal with Iraq's nuke program. (Osirak was nicknamed O-Chirac and Chirac was nicknamed Chiraq).

[Kathy in Cambridge]

85. Please post links to back up your assertions

do you have any evidence to back up this talking points?

[geek tragedy]

89. Here ya go:

1. Arms sales to Iraq, 1973-1990:

http://www.answers.com/topic/arms-sales-to-iraq-1973-1990

2. Chirac and Iraq's nuclear program:



http://www.boston.com/news/packages/iraq/globe_stories/030203_chirac.htm

<snip>

In this 1975 photo, then-Vice President Hussein is seen touring the Cadarache nuclear power station in France, accompanied by a bespectacled Chirac, France's prime minister at the time. Chirac freelanced a deal to sell Saddam two nuclear reactors, and arranged to have French nuclear scientists and engineers train their counterparts in Iraq-most of whom are now on the list of Iraqi scientists and engineers that UN weapons inspectors want to chat with. Not only did Chirac help build Iraq's ''Osirak'' reactor-the Israelis dubbed it ''O-Chirac''-near Baghdad, but he also sought to ship Iraq weapons-grade uranium, even though a safer grade was available. (France's president, Valery Giscard d'Estaing, scotched the plan.) By the end of the Iran-Iraq war, Iraq was France's single largest arms customer; Iranians referred to Chirac as ''Shah-Iraq.'' In 1981, Israeli fighter pilots-including a 26-year-old Ilan Ramon, who died last month on the space shuttle Columbia-destroyed the Osirak reactor shortly before it was due to deliver nuclear capacity to Iraq. Chirac, echoing the views of many world leaders at the time, described the Israeli raid as ''unacceptable
<snip>

[cheeseit]

113. Plus Giscard "Weekend at Bokassa's" d'Estaing.

[geek tragedy]

114. Someone once joked to me that there ought to be a bike tour on

the French Riviera of all the deposed African kleptocrats' mansions. It could probably begin at Mobutu's.

http://www.edlis.org/twice/threads/mobutu_riviera_villa.html

http://www.edlis.org/twice/gifs/mobutu's_riviera_villa.jpg

[Taxloss]

129. Francois Mitterrand ordered the destruction of the Rainbow Warrior.

1985.

[Bridget Burke]

31. Tell them to get newer Right Wing Talking Points.

Your "friends" lack prestige--they aren't on the #1 list. Shouldn't they be defending Karl Rove mow?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. If it hadn't been for the French we'd be singing "God Save the Queen".

Vive le Republique!

[Maple]

36. France is a very old country

and has been involved in countless wars. They don't need to 'prove' anything to anyone.

And they've gotten beyond the point where they equate manhood with guns and wars.

They have an excellent advanced military, but they don't make it the core of their nationhood.

They were at war in North America before the US ever existed. Their military has been involved around the world in all the wars since then, but it's never reported in the American media.

However, brains, not brawn, is what you need in the 21st century.

Progress, evolution...not schoolyard taunts.

This 'my dad can beat up your dad' is just crap.

France opposed the idea of attacking Iraq. That's why everyone is currently down on them. Turns out they were right however.

For some reason nobody mentions all the other countries that opposed it as well. France is known as a nation of culture though, whereas Russia and Germany and China are thought to be more militaristic.

It's kind of an anti-intellectual, anti-culture macho thing.

[Mass]

37. As you can see, this is not only the fact of the right

Some here have the same feeling.

[Bridget Burke]

69. But some here may not really be Left (or even Democrats)

Not that I'm naming any names...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

118. Well, if you did, you'd be breaking the rules and prolly get an alert.

And that would be tragic.

Now excuse me while I hack some Linux code and read this cool Star Wars site.

[seabeyond]

38. debunk french is weak. how about loudly and clearly going

against the united states and saying it wouldnt buy into bush lie that iraq was an imminate danger. i think it takes a pretty strong character to say no to the united states. not weak

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

41. France refused the war out of its own cynical self-interest.

The hatred of the Neocons for France comes from the fact that France dared to put its own cynical self-interest ahead of the cynical self-interest of the United States. Not saying I'm unhappy that they opposed the war. But let's be fair - they did the right thing for the wrong reason.

[Mass]

43. Probably true

But still better than doing the WRONG thing for the WRONG reason.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

45. Indeed it is. n/t

[tocqueville]

56. THIS IS COMPLETE BULLSHIT

and applies to the neocon myth that France didn't went to Iraq because of the oil for food story (which I'll debunk if you want).

The truth is the following :

The French task force of about 25 000 men and the hangar carrier Charles De Gaulle were on their way to Iraq when they were ordered to
sail back in the beginning of January 2003

the reason for that is that Chirac understood that the US would go to war NO MATTER WHAT and that the UN stuff was a smokescreen.

Chirac wanted a UN Mandate when all the inspector options had been exhausted, hoping that Saddam could be disarmed peacefully. And the French intelligence didn't buy the WMD story, even if they of course couldn't be sure to 100%.

Besides France was (is) one of the major players in the operation Enduring Freedom
http://www.centcom.mil/Operations/Coalition/Coalition_pages/france.htm

France allowed the US to use its base in Djibouti to send the US predator drone who retaliated in Yemen against the authors of the bombing of the USS Cole

France is one of the major players in the POLICE work against terrorism, ever heard about the ALLIance Base ? google it :
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/02/AR2005070201361.html

[Mass]

58. Not sure what the initial poster was referring too

Personnally, I was referring to Chirac's political interest and personnal prestige in the issue.

If he had seen any political gain in supporting Bush, he would have done so, but the French people and the political class (from the extreme-right to the extreme-left) were all very united in opposing this war (interesting that this may be the one accomplishment Bush had in the pre-war period), that Chirac had no other way to go - he has made his career on nationalism and Bush ignored him for Blair.

[tocqueville]

60. Chirac had a lot to lose

If the war in Iraq had been successfull for the US, this had been devastating for the US-French relations.

It's true that a majority were against the war, but I don't think it was Chirac's primary motive.

I think that both him and Schroeder had a feeling that all this would go to hell, which it did. Besides Chirac has a lot of knowledge of the Arab world (When drafted, Jacques Chirac volunteered to be deployed in Algeria (Algerian War of Independence), even though his family relations would easily have allowed him to obtain a safe position away from the war.) He stayed 1954 to 1957 and was wounded...

all comparisons with George are futile


Then nationalism isn't really his trade mark. He made more his career on the center-right as a Gaullist follower, standing for lower tax rates, the removal of price controls, strong punishments for crime and terrorism and business privatization.

[Mass]

62. I have to disagree with you on Chirac

but once again, I have never been a big fan of Chirac, having volunteered to defeat him for very long time while in France.

However, the man has always been very nationalist (nothing wrong against that).

As for Algeria, this is probably something that we should not remind people, as Chirac has said since it was the best period of his life.

[tocqueville]

66. I am not a fan of Chirac either

but his knowledge of the Arab World his interesting

and regarding his Algeria period, seen with American eyes, he is the equivalent of a Kerry (compared to Bush).

Of course the wars in Algeria and Vietnam were wrong, but you have to see them in the historical context. Nobody attacks Kerry for having been in Nam, except the rovian swiftboats of course...

I personally think Chirac is mostly a failure, but there are two things he will be reminded for :

- turning the French Army into a professional one
- saying no the war in Iraq

[julianer]

71. Perhaps there was also

an element of jockeying for position in the EU. France and Germany are the traditional central allies of the Union both of whom are keen not to allow UK too much of a leading role, since they suspect the UK's relationship with the US.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

59. ::sigh::

This has nothing to do with oil-for-food.

[tocqueville]

63. maybe not, but it sounded like it

I spent a lot of time on Yahoo debunking that story (since Galloway's intervention they have shut up)...

As I said, all nations follow basically their self interest and France is no exception. But in the Iraq case Chirac's intentions were based on a sound assessment of the situation, that the war on Saddam was unjustified (from the Al Quaeda-WMD premisses). This was obvious for THE VAST MAJORITY of the Europeans in 2003. Remember that George was already perceived as a "dangerous clown" at that time. Of course the Americans, still blinded by 9/11 couldn't see that. Nobody trusted him and governments like the UK, Poland etc... that went along did it for own personal agendas and against the will of the populations, most of them (in the eastern countries specially) awaiting the big bucks for the services...

They regret it today

[Media_Lies_Daily]

79. The French leaders knew the NeoCons were lying and refused to...

...go along with the NeoCon flow.

Whether or not they acted out of "self-interest", they were correct in their assessment.

Your response sounds like sour grapes to me.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

83. Not at all.

I just refuse to hold them up as the paragon of human rights protection that they most decidedly aren't.

[K-W]

39. You cant reason with someone whos position doesnt rest on logic. nt

[RPM]

42. Collaborate?? THat's a BUSH family specialty...

I guess its time to send them an e-mail detailing the links between the Bushes and Saddam & Osama

[demgurl]

44. I do not think you will change their minds.

Their minds are already so small that it is hard to fit another thought in there. If you feel you must reply, all of this hatred is truly directed at France not stepping up to the plate and backing us invading Iraq. This is one of my favorite rants that I do at least once a month for my husband and here is pretty much how it goes:

I know I have said this a thousand times but it galls me the hate they shit out for France, Germany and the UN. How on earth can people be so blind and stupid? We said that Iraq had WMD's. We said we based this on intelligence. Well the whole world has intelligence agencies of one kind or another. We were the victims here and we had the whole wold eating out of our hands. A big red flag went up for me when France and Germany would not go along. If their intelligence backed up ours then they would go along with the states. No, something more was afoot there. We would not even go back to the UN to get an updated resolution. We also would not give the UN inspectors a few more lousy weeks to complete their inspection.

I had to believe one of two things, either France and Germany wished harm to the US or that the information we had was bad - knowingly or not. I have always chosen the latter answer since I can not believe anyone in the free world wished us harm at that point.

Well, time has now passed and we see that if the UN had been given the time they needed, no WMD's would be found. We also have seen that France and Germany were right in not backing us up. They were in the right. Did you hear that? For all the freedom fries and Bill O'Lielly saying not to buy French products, they were right.

The only conclusion I can come to is the one that is so rudely slapped in our faces. I have heard the saying 'Bush won, get over it.' How about this new one, the French and Germans were right, you get over it. How about throwing it in their faces that if we had not been so egotistical and went in with our eyes closed even though most major countries were against us doing that, there would still be 1700 and some odd US soldiers alive today. How about touting how the French and Germans stood up for our people saying we should not invade and because our leaders chose not to listen, soldiers died.

Do you know what is really weak? A pResident who feels he must listen to nobody. Someone who can not admit their mistakes. A strong nation stands up to those who do wrong, like France and Germany. It takes a lot to speak out against the US and yet they did. That takes strength, my friend. And, sadly, I think I am the only one on a weekly basis getting very upset that more people are not shouting out that the French, Germans and UN were right!

Thanks for letting me blow off steam.

[lateo]

47. We should take anyone who thinks the French are weak and...

send them to France and let them attend French Commando school.

That will shut them the fuck up.

[julianer]

74. Send them to Paris to drive around for a while

Then we'll see who's brave

[lateo]

131. LOL!

No kidding.

[Village Idiot]

49. One word - Yorktown.

[On the Road]

51. Maybe the Best Way

is to ridicule the British retreating at Dunkirk and the US helicopters leaving Saigon. That'll confuse the issue enough. The French are more pacifist because they sacrificed a whole generation of young men in WWI.

[sam sarrha]

54. ask them is the "Playground Bully Party" is running a candidate in 2006

[Telly Savalas]

55. You might try pointing out that only a fucking neanderthal...

measures the righteousness of a people by gauging their prowess at killing people and destroying property in a military conflict. But what the fuck do I know? I'm just a nutty liberal who opts for the "mom, baseball, and apple pie" brand of patriotism instead of that "I'm insecure about my country so I'll make fun of France" version of nationalism.

[NewJeffCT]

64. Didn't a US commander say the French were among the best in Afghanistan?

I thought I remember reading that a while back, that a US commander in Afghanistan said the French soldiers in Iraq were among the best there in what was a much more legitimate & worldwide coalition than what was bribed into Iraq...

[LSK]

65. Revolutionary war, Napolean

No America without the French declaring war on the British during the Revolutionary War.

Napolean conquered most of Europe.

[mcscajun]

70. Some ammunition for you...

...'cause this stuff pisses ME off, too!

WWI Casualties

French soldiers killed: 1,375,000 (16.36% of their military at the time)
French colonial soldiers killed: 100,000
French civilians killed : 40,000
French wounded (military and civilian): 4,266,000

French population in 1914: 40,000,000

US soldiers killed: 126,000 (2.89% of our military at the time)
US civilians killed: 0
US wounded: 234,300

US population in 1914: 99,111,000

"In France, by some estimates, World War I killed 27 per cent of France's male population between the ages of 18 and 25. Another 25 to 30 per cent were gravely wounded."

WWII Casualties

French military: 210,000
French civilians: 350,000

French population in 1939: 36,000,000

US military: 407,000
US civilians: 6,000

US population in 1939: 130,879,718

"France never fully recovered from the results of World War I. Here is what the French lost from 1914 to 1918: 1,357,800 Killed or died 4,266,000 Wounded 537,000 Prisoners and missing; Total: 6,160,800. The French had mobilized 8,410,000 men. No nation had ever suffered such a staggering loss. No nation had shown a greater record of sheer courage and tenacity. There was scarcely a family in France that did not number one or more of its members among the dead. World War I left France weak and exhausted — for the second war Germany launched against her within a generation.

The catastrophic effects of the first World War hit France particularly hard because they were added to the serious problem of a declining birth-rate. By 1939, largely because of the losses of World War I, the proportion of the French population under 20 years of age was small — and growing smaller; the proportion of Frenchmen over 60 years of age was large—and growing larger.

In 1940, after occupation, the Germans tried to cripple France permanently by a policy of deliberate starvation and the segregation of the sexes. The Germans held nearly 2,000,000 French men in German prison and work camps—away from French women. The German policy of malnutrition worked so well that in 1945, when the French government was drafting men to re-create a French army, it was found that 40% of all Frenchmen called up for physical duty were physically unfit. In 1942, at the height of German occupation, there were 500,000 more deaths than births in France.

In the six week Battle of France, from May 10 to June 22, 1940, the French lost, in military personnel alone, 260,000 wounded and 108,000 killed. A total of 368,000 casualties in six weeks is not something to pass off lightly."

For a great deal more (much of it old, some not), visit http://www.blackmask.com/books126c/112gripedex.htm

[Kathy in Cambridge]

80. Great summary

Thanks. :thumbsup:

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

75. French Battalion in Korea won 3 Distinguished Presidential Unit Citations

and took part in some of the toughest fighting, including the battle of Heartbreak Ridge.

http://www.info-france-usa.org/atoz/koreawar.asp

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

82. French fighter squadrons who fought in the Russian Air Force in WWII

After the fall of France to the Germans, two squadrons of French air force pilots volunteered to fight on the Eastern Front with the Soviet Army and were named by Stalin the Normandie-Niemen. About 100 French pilots took part in this French unit and about one half lost their lives. They accounted for nearly 300 German planes shot down. Their best ace was Marcel Albert who downed 25 German planes and won the honor of "Hero Of The Soviet Union", equivalent to the U.S. Congressional Medal Of Honor. Three other French pilots won the same honor.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.russie.net/france/normandie-niemen.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dnormandie%2Bniemen%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

In fact, the French also had a Free French air unit that fought out of England after the fall of France. The THIRD BEST air ace on the allied side in World War II was the French pilot Pierre Clostermann, who shot down 36 German planes with another 16 probable. Clostermann was the recipient of the Distinguished Flying Cross and is the author of "The Big Circus", a book that William Faulkner called the greatest book ever written on air combat.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dawgs]

107. Brilliant deduction...

I start a thread looking for help against French bashing, and another one you can't debunk, and that immediately makes me someone with an agenda.

You guys are the reason I'm really getting tired of this site. You assume someone is up to something without proof or facts to back it up.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

119. "and another one you can't debunk?"

Plenty of debunking here if you ask me. Don't you agree?

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truebrit71]

93. If it weren't for the French you Yanks would be speaking...

...the Queen's English.....

[blondeatlast]

95. OP--at lunch again? Or is it break time? nt

[blondeatlast]

97. I'd ask my dad, who stood with them in WW2, but he can't be disturbed

at the Vet's Cemetary.

I will say he was pretty impressed with their resolve, though.

[The Stranger]

101. Two (or three) words:

Jean-Claude Van Damme

[tocqueville]

120. is Belgian

[The Stranger]

121. Merde!

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

126. The guy from the original Highlander movie is French

Christophe Lambert who played the immortal Connor MacLeod.

[alcibiades_mystery]

103. “Ils ne passeront pas!"

End of fucking argument.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/verdun.htm

[Emendator]

105. Countries that neighbor Germany

tend to have a lower winning percentage in wars than countries that don't.

The French are no slouches however.

Also tell your friend that there is more to a country's greatness than its military prowess.

[Garbo 2004]

106. Not worth the time and effort to "debunk" a stupid joke. Do you debunk

Polish jokes too? Etc?

But the French do have wonderful desserts. That definitely counts for something. Yum. :)

[Redleg]

110. I just ignore that Francophobic bullcrap.

The Rethugs have been making fun of the French for as long as I can remember. It's a damned shame considering the care the French have taken of the WWII memorials to American soldiers in Normandy. It's a damned shame considering that the French underground fought very hard against the occupying German forces in WWII and the French army fought hard in WWI. NOt to mention the point that the French were a great help to us in our own war of independence.

Fuck the Rethugs if they feel they have to insult other countries. It just shows their ignorance and zenophobia.

[KansDem]

112. I seem to recall De Gaulle kicked the Americans out of France in 1966.

Did any other country do that to the United States, let alone a "weak" one?

[tocqueville]

122. A very useful site

http://www.understandfrance.org/

[cheeseit]

115. arguing with fools is rarely rewarded--

--and arguing with bigots even less so, since reason doesn't really come into it. The contention that an entire nation of 60 million people are weak and cowardly is, to any reasonable person, self-debunkingly stupid.

[really annoyed]

117. You Started Some Flame Wars

I wouldn't worry about debunking jokes though. Let the freeps have a good time - they are totally clueless about what is going on in this world.

[JackDragna]

123. World War II alone is proof enough of their courage.

Yes, they surrendered. They surrendered to an army that, at the time, was the best-led and most modern in the world. Even so, many tens of thousands of Frenchmen died fighting the Nazis.

And to the person up at the top who says the majority of the French capitulated, that's certainly true. The majority of people in any occupied country usually capitulate to invaders. Ordinary people want to live ordinary lives and just try to get by. Compared to other occupied nations during the war, however, France had a large resistance network, skilled in doing everything from espionage to sabotage to getting downed Allied pilots out of Europe. As I recall, Eisenhower said, when D-Day happened, that the French resistance was worth the equivalent of ten divisions during the battle for France.

Let's also not forget one big fun fact..when World War II began, the French had a pretty decent army and were fairly ready for war. America was full of isolationists and knobs who only cared about the latest pop culture fluff, much like they do now. France had a much better army than ours at the beginning of the war. For all our criticism of the French, we were not nearly as strong as France on September 1, 1939.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

124. Excellent historical analysis

:toast:

[tocqueville]

125. Thank you for that one and some little known facts :

On 24 February, the French 6th Light Division, combined with the 2nd Brigade of the 82nd Airborne Division, pushed 94 miles into Iraq towards the small junction town of As Salman. They met and destroyed the 10,000-man Iraqi 45th Infantry Division, and captured the Iraqi airfield. Nothing was ever mentioned about a French PSYOP leaflet.

Then, in the fall issue of the French postcard magazine Cartes Postales et Collection, a French As Salman leaflet was illustrated. This came as quite a surprise to everyone. There were no PSYOP assets available in As Salman. The magazine said that the leaflets were dropped on and around As Salman 2-3 days before the envelopment of the town and airfield.

We knew that the city itself had not been leafleted by the Coalition. An officer of the 82nd Airborne told me that there were only about a dozen residents left in town when he got there and the only PSYOP used in the area was a loudspeaker message "Get out of town, the Coalition is about to attack," which preceded the assault by about 30 minutes. That officer said that he did not see a single PSYOP leaflet in As Salman. The French had a PSYOP team from the 8th Battalion attached so if they wanted a leaflet it could have been produced and forwarded by the Coalition. The Coalition had dropped some standard leaflets in the general area around the French position. We know that C29 depicting a French flag was dropped, as was surrender leaflet C21. The XVIII Airborne Corps also sent some loudspeaker helicopters over the Iraqis with Saudi speakers to broadcast surrender messages. Where did this mysterious leaflet originate? Lucien Most, a general of the Daquet Division had this to say about the project:

We printed a leaflet that was supposed to be airdropped over As Salman but was in fact simply distributed by hand to the civilians and nomads in the area.
---------------------------------------

F: Map of As Salman with arrow pointing to an open area. B&W. 145x210mm.
"Peace be upon you. We are your friends. Read the instructions on the back of this leaflet. Join quietly at the gathering place that is designated by the arrow. We will come to the assembly place and we will protect you. Welcome."

B: U.S. and French flag at top. 15 lines of Arabic text below.
"France. We are French soldiers. France is your friend. We bring you peace and tranquility. We invite the civilian and religious authorities to meet with us at the place drawn on the map so that we can arrange their reception. Take your families and meet at the gathering place with your identity cards. We will separate the women from the men. If you have weapons, leave them in front of your door. We have doctors, medicine, food and supplies. We will treat you with respect. Once you have gathered, we will enter the city and protect and respect your belongings. You will return to your city and homes after the completion of the inspection. You will live in peace and security under our protection.

http://www.psywarrior.com/HerbDStorm7.html

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

128. The French Army collapsed, but so did every other army

The Russian Armies were swept from the field, retreating for almost 1,000 miles (at least twice the width of France itself) all the way to Moscow and were only saved by the fortuitous arrival of winter and the Siberian Army. If they had been confined to the borders of a country like France they wouldn't have stood a chance.

The British Army of about 350,000 fighting alongside the French collapsed even faster, all the way to Dunkirk, and the French First Army in fact had to defend their retreat.

Let's not even talk about the Poles, the Norwegians, the Danes, the Dutch, and the Belgians.

And don't forget that the French shot down approximately 1,000 German planes during the battle for France, planes that would not be available to the Luftwaffe for the Battle of Britain, which was a closely and hardly fought duel.

The French Army continued to fight throughout the war, based in England and North Africa. The French Marines, Legionnaires, Spahis, and other French units fighting within the British Army at the battle of Bir Hakeim were surrounded and held off Rommel for 10 days single-handedly before breaking out, allowing the rest of the British Army to slip away from disaster and regroup for the victory at El Alamein.

And the Free French Expeditionary Force played a role in the Italian campaign against the Germans, taking the heights known as the "Belvedere" above Monte Casino and several other promontories that helped break the German Gustav Line and lift the bloody siege at Anzio where Americans were getting slaughtered.

The French even had an Army at the Battle of the Bulge, but you never hear much about it as our history tends to have an Anglo slant (which I guess is natural and is not something I'm criticizing).

[tocqueville]

127. Send that one to the freepers, they will STFU

http://bushlibrary.tamu.edu/research/papers/1991/91071400.html

Remarks at the Presentation Ceremony of the Declaration of the Legion of Merit, Degree of Chief Commander, to General Michel Roquejeoffre in Rambouillet, France
July 14, 1991
The President. Mr. President, let me say, I am very pleased to mark this brief visit to your country by honoring a Frenchman of great character and courage, General Michel Roquejeoffre.

General, under your able leadership, sir, French forces displayed a valor that brought great credit to the name of France and contributed to the success of our coalition. Like Lafayette before you, you took the field in service to a larger cause. A grateful Nation gives you thanks. And on behalf of all Americans, it is a privilege and a pleasure to present you the Legion of Merit Degree of Chief Commander.

And now, after translation of that, I will ask Major Cancilla if you would please read the citation, sir.

Major Cancilla. The President of the United States takes great pleasure in presenting the Legion of Merit, Degree of Chief Commander, to General Michel Roquejeoffre for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as the commander in chief of the Rapid Action Force during Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm.

General Roquejeoffre assembled and commanded over 16,000 of France's best soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines as a contingent of the largest coalition in modern history. General Roquejeoffre's ability to foster a cohesive and cooperative spirit between all nations resulted in the successful execution of hostilities against one of the world's largest land armies, employment of history's most extensive and impressive air campaigns, and effective maritime intercept and mine operations, and the world's first defense against ballistic missiles.

His air force struck heavily defended targets in Kuwait and was instrumental in neutralizing or reducing a significant number of enemy capabilities, particularly the Iraqi commanding-control-infrastructure and its ability to conduct counterattacks. The French Daguet Division conducted a light-ning breakthrough and encircling movement covering over 150 kilometers in less than 48 hours, and then protected the coalition's flank. French naval forces were active during the entire campaign, conducting escort operations and mine clearing, and actively participating in the ongoing maritime intercept operations.

Throughout Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm General Roquejeoffre led his forces magnificently and displayed the leadership, vision, wisdom, and perseverance required to ensure the victory of coalition forces over Iraq.