How To Get Our Troops Out Of Iraq And Afghanistan

[bigtree]

Just bring 'em home.


Last Soviet Soldiers Leave Afghanistan

February 16, 1989
http://partners.nytimes.com/library/world/africa/021689afghan-laden.html?Partner=PBS&RefId=Eutttn-uFBqv

MOSCOW -- The last Soviet soldier came home from Afghanistan this morning, the Soviet Union announced, leaving behind a war that had become a domestic burden and an international embarrassment for Moscow.

The final Soviet departure came on the day set as a deadline by the Geneva accords last April. It left two heavily armed adversaries, the Kremlin-backed Government of President Najibullah and a fractious but powerful array of Muslim insurgents, backed by the United States and Pakistan, to conclude their civil war on their own.

Lieut. Gen. Boris V. Gromov, the commander of the Soviet forces in Afghanistan, walked across the steel Friendship Bridge to the border city of Termez, in Uzbekistan, at 11:55 A.M. local time (1:55 A.M., Eastern time), 9 years and 50 days after Soviet troops intervened to support a coup by a Marxist ally. 'Our Stay Ends'

"There is not a single Soviet soldier or officer left behind me," General Gromov told a Soviet television reporter waiting on the bridge. "Our nine-year stay ends with this.

[infinitehangover]

1. "See that's why commies suck! "

Another reason why the US cannot step out. The right will point out that we are better than the commies- we won the cold war afterall.

[Oversea Visitor]

11. Dont worry

they do come back home. But in a coffin.

[Igel]

2. And this is evidence in an argument for leaving? n/t

[bigtree]

5. yes

The soviets massacred tens of thousands of the best and brightest of Afghanistan. Their presence there only worsened matters, for their own troops and for Afghans.

That is exactly what we face in Iraq. We cannot make the situation better by staying. We are not providing adequate security for the new Iraqi government, and are actually putting them at more risk because the animosity generated by our occupation is the best recruiting tool the opposition has. Nothing positive will be gained by staying.

The Soviets decided that they had enough, their people were starving to support the occupation, and their country folk were clamoring for the return of the soldiers. Let's just pray that it doesn't take us as long to decide to pack up and leave.

[Igel]

7. I guess the question is:

Would things have been better had the Soviets stayed, or had they left?

From the Soviet's viewpoint, leaving was probably better. From the view of the Afghans, well, they certainly wanted the Soviets to leave; but the civil war and the balkanization of the country under the warlords, then consolidation of the Taliban, then the steps the Taliban needed to maintain their rule ...

It involves playing a huge game of what-if, with a lot of unknowns. While I certainly didn't want the Soviets to stay, never having been a fan of the USSR, it's not as though I was in the least bit happy with what happened after they left. I can't honestly say I have a clue how to go about evaluating which I now would like to have happened--continued USSR presence with no US support for the native resistance, or a Soviet withdrawal. I think for it to be a convincing part of the argument you want to make, it must be demonstrably better for the Russians to have left.

[bigtree]

14. would the same logic the Soviets used apply? They slaughtered as many

innocents as we have in Iraq. What does it matter what 'good' they wanted to do in the aftermath?

[NorCalDem]

3. Here's how we leave Iraq

Apologize 1000 times
Load the troops onto ships/planes/anything that moves
Apologize another 1000 times, something like "we F**ked up, our Bad"
Come home
Apologize some more, beg for international forgiveness

I'm sorry, but that's about the only scenario I see working. There will be no victory in Iraq, and the longer we hang around, the worse it will be when we are finally forced to leave.

[DistressedAmerican]

4. I'm Pretty Sure Planes And Boats Would Do The Trick. Let's Send Some

and see if that does it!

[James T. Kirk]

6. You recall that the withdrawing Soviets did not provide aid...

... to rebuild what they had destroyed and Afghanistan became a war-torn hell and home for the terrorists who are trying to kill us. We're still trying to clean up the mess they caused.

[bigtree]

13. I don't see how anyone can argue that we have helped Iraq

Before the imposition of sanctions in the '80's, and before the war, Iraq boasted the region's best schools and hospitals, and enjoyed the smallest gap between the rich and poor of any of its neighbors. Also, Iraq's educated class ranked among the region's best.

Six weeks of intensive bombing reduced Iraq to what was described as a pre-industrial state. Unemployment soared and the black market flourished, resulting in a widening of the gap between the impoverished majority and those few who managed to cling to wealth. That was the first Bush war.

You know what the result of our meddling this time around has been. Having removed the one controlling authority (Saddam) who had no affinity for Syria or Iran, who Bush professes to fear, we then set Iraqis on a process that ended with a majority that favors the regimes in both Iran and Syria, alienating the Kurds, alienating Northern Sunnis, etc.

And, how can we argue that we are providing security in the face of our own killing of tens of thousands of innocents there and our apparent inability to stop the almost daily slaughter of supporters and officers of the new Iraqi regime. What justification for our presence is left? We can't clean up our own mess while we are led by the same cabal who got us into Iraq. They have no interest in the welfare of the Iraqi people outside of their own ambitions for money and power. Bush's main interest is establishing a base for further military meddling and expansionism in the region. He should not be allowed to use the pretext of helping the Iraqis to cover his ambition to establish a permanent base of operations to stage attacks.

The whole venture is an imperialist sham. It should be ended at once.

[spanone]

8. Ruskies got their butts kicked.

[LynnTheDem]

9. airplanes

Ships.

[seabeyond]

10. and then taliban became to be. women, not allowed to feed

their kids, stuck in a home if they didnt have male relative to let them go out on street to beg for money to feed their children, black paint on all windows so no one dare see a face. ya,.....they left it good. we in the u.s. felt bad for how long for the men and children, and especially the women that fell under the authority of the taliban.

we are pigs if we stay, we are certainly pigs if we leave. jsut know, we fgucked up all the way around, but it isnt going to be all peachy pulling out. all will not be ok. and we did that

i dont think it will get better us staying either.

but it isnt a shrug of a shoulder

[bigtree]

12. seabeyond

you must know that there isn't much that's a shrug of a shoulder with me.

[seabeyond]

15. ya.......i know

it is something i wrestle with