Forget oil. Why aren't we pushing alternative fuels? Alternative ENERGY?

[shance]

There is not a reason on this earth we can not be pursuing alternative sources of fuel/energy this on a city wide, state wide level. If this is what is enslaving us, then let's break out of this illusionary box. We are not slaves to oil unless we choose it.

Of course, the most important thing right now is getting rid of electronic fraud voting, but at the same time, we can give a message, and the message we should be driving is ALTERNATIVE ENERGY (and of course paper ballots counted by citizens at the local precincts).

I believe that is essentially the only way we will fight this battle.

It's unbelievable frankly that we act as if we have no options. Americans do have options. Its up to us you guys, to make that happen.

[wli]

1. need to work on sufficiently dense hydrogen storage

And also photoelectrolysis.

[shance]

3. Do we have the capacity to employ it now wli?

n/t

[wli]

16. yes, but with qualifications

High pressures are achievable, but without fancy chemical methods ("advanced hydrogen fuel cells") the capacities are very low, and you end up (you guessed it) having to refill tanks frequently.

Photoelectrolysis isn't really happening yet. The usual methods of electrolysis ("steam reforming") are highly endothermic, and not terribly efficient. They are methods involving extraction of hydrogen from hydrocarbons (e.g. natural gas) which may prove useful as a transitional method of production. But I fully expect the photoelectrolysis methods like those of Crabtree et al to be industrially employable and ultimately more efficient.

A hopeful sign too is the quasiturbine engine, which is more efficient than even Wankel engines if the claims are true, and suitable for use with hydrogen as well.

[shance]

19. I thought there were engines that could be fueled from sunlight.....

Am I wrong?

I know of the Solarbus....

[wli]

22. there are other issues there

Namely acceleration/deceleration abilities, unreliability of fuel source, etc. It's a great idea to slap photovoltaic cells on things and collect extra electricity when you can, but when it comes down to it, it's intermittent.

Also, one should probably try to collect waste heat with Stirling engines, but that's another question.

[shance]

24. How much in question, and how far from usage?

Or is that known?

[wli]

28. the "question" centers around effective usage

No one's really tried engineering the things into the system to see if shaking and so on make them break down or how much can actually be recovered vs. the initial outlay (basically how much operation time is required to recoup the construction cost against the expected lifetime and additional maintenance costs) as far as I know.

So it's not really whether they can recoup energy effectively, but whether the amount of energy they recoup justifies additional engineering, construction, and maintenance costs.

[Jersey Ginny]

2. do you know about the website ei2025?

If not, check it out. There is more interest in this very critical subject. I it can be largely bipartisan except for the Repuke wackos who still think the earth if flat. You are completely right about the voting issue. Many grassroots organizations are working hard and successfully in NJ demanding paper trails and no black box voting.

[shance]

4. Thanks for posting JG***Great info and we are working hard in Callee

and its challenging to stay focused. However electronic voting fraud (and alternative energy) is miles beyond important with regards to anything else, as Im sure you know.

These two factors seem to determine the success of America's future.

[serryjw]

8. I'd gladly convert an old car to

run on vegetable oil. Does it HAVE to be a diesel car?

[firefox]

5. The big oil profits are getting ready to come

The $20 a barrel of 5 years ago are gone forever. The oil industries are breaking all profit records with the new plateau above $50 a barrel.

If there are no alternatives, then there is no way out. Demand will continue to push oil consumption to even higher prices. The "energy companies" have us where they want us. They have their servants in Congress and a president with an energy policy that encourages consumption (of oil.)

[rman]

13. You omitted the effect of limited supply on price.

Demand has been rising at some 3% per year ever since oil was discovered - why would rising damand cause such increased prices only now?
Demand would not be an issue if supply would be able to keep up.

[skids]

6. There's no need to wait on legislation...

...though it is needed.

Putting your own system together to provide for home heat/ac/power needs, though, is a good way to put your money where your mouth is on this one.

[Art_from_Ark]

7. It 's hard to push alternative energy sources

when your energy policy is being controlled by Cliff Barnes and J.R.Ewing

[kestrel91316]

11. You get a gold star nt

[shance]

12. Sweetie, Im from Texas and those are of course fictional characters.

As Im sure you know*** ;)

Yes, the oil industry is powerful, however, they of all people should realize the need for change and progress. Many of them are quick to jump on other innovative ventures, why in the world not the most important of all? Alternative energy?

The truth is, that those dictated by oil are either too lazy or tremendously limited in thinking because it benefits them, along with every single American to venture out of the box and look at other alternatives.

In the long (short) run, we have no other choice.

[brak]

9. a lot of alternative energy sources actually require oil for production

a lot of alternative energy sources actually require oil for production and upkeep. charging an electric car requires oil from the electric infrastructure. Hybrids are good, but still require *some* gasoline. Hydrogen fuel cells also require a lot of energy in production and in storing the hydrogen. I think the reduction of energy consumption should be part of any legislation that deals with this. Not that I'm saying we shouldn't actually pursue alternative fuels... we should, but I think we should also focus on being less wasteful. Solar is the only truly renewable source.

[shance]

14. This is absolutely true. And YET there are others that need NO oil.

Why not focus on those that could help free ourselves of the burden of being 'enslaved' to oil production?

Seems to me the oil companies will at some point have to look at this. Why not now?? It makes little sense to me.

[brak]

23. which ones don't need oil? I'm curious, I need this info for discussion.

[shance]

26. I talk fast. Im assuming solar energy and hydrogen energy

dont in the end need oil. And wind energy as well, however I have no idea if that can effect a car or not.

If you know more than I do on the subject, I'd be more than grateful to hear your input.

[brak]

30. i'm not an expert, but hydrogen is actually expensive, oil-wise

I'm not sure at which point in the process, but it does take a lot of oil to create the hydrogen fuel cells. I just don't remember where the oil happens. wind and solar, perfect but low-yield. would require a lot of windmills and panels.

[shance]

31. I guess it would be most effective then to look into fuels that have the

least amount of oil necessary.

How can we promote companies to do that?

Its obviously to me this is by far the most logical thing to do, and yet there seem those the most resistant to positive change.

If this is anything other than the most proactive and positive change, I hope someone will consult us at DU.

[skids]

35. Buying their products would be a good start.

Buying and setting up solar and wind installations is the best way, IMO, to promote these companies. The only problem is that several of the companies are gouging, because they know there are subsidies and that renewable home power is a boutique market. So you have to shop very, very prudently.

Exciting stuff is happenning in the area of thermopiles (still way overpriced) and in the reduction of the production costs of solar panels (nanotech cold-assembled panels are still years off, though.) For now, I'd concentrate on taking care of your heating, AC, and hot water needs, and skip electricity until the products available are more attractive.

[Skittles]

10. people are driving SUVS AND HUMMERS

people DON'T GIVE A SH** and until they do, NOTHING WILL BE DONE

[brak]

15. well, those hummers won't run in 20 years when the oil is gone

[shance]

18. Which is precisely my point. Are we braindead in America to not think

of this?

It makes no sense we are not promoting other uses of fuel and power. If the profit margin is not as big, in the end, who cares?

We are America.

If we allow creativity to thrive, we will be just fine, in fact we will be light years better off than we are now.

[rman]

21. SUVs won't run in 5 years when oil is $100 a barrel

There will be shortages long before oil has run out all together, becaus production can not continue to increase untill the last drop has been extracted. Tyipcally production starts to decline when the half-way point is reached, which seems to be now. In fact $100 a barrel in five years in probably optimistic.

[brak]

25. Rich people will always be able to pay for it.

That's why they don't care. When oil is $100, even $200 a barrel, the rich still won't feel a drop in the bucket. Me, on the other hand, I have a van that I use for work and hauling around construction supplies for the home. It cost me $4,000. That was the perfect price for me. However now it costs me almost $100 to fill the tank. if gas prices go up to $4 or $5? I'm in a world of trouble in many senses. 1.) because I won't be able to afford to fuel the van I currently own. 2.) no one will buy it for same as reason #1 3.) without selling it, I couldn't possibly afford to buy a more energy-friendly one. Congress should have set aside funds for a "buy-back" program, much like many cities do with guns. Unfortunately, all the money is gone. I have little hope for the coming energy crisis.

[shance]

27. Brak, keep in mind, rich people wont always be rich.

Sure the richest .000001 percent might but of course that will prove obsene, that is, if we address it with logic and objectivity.

There is certainly no logic and/or objectivity to having the most minute percentage of individuals enslaving everyone else to their greedy luxuries. I would certainly hope that most, or certainly a few of logical, thinking individuals would agree.

[brak]

29. good point, thanks. AND with most of their wealth tied up in stocks...

bill gates would go broke almost instantly in a market crash. (not that i have any personal beef against gates, he's just rich, and came to mind.)

[rman]

33. How many SUV owners now are actually "rich"?

Aren't most middle-class, who can only afford a SUV because they 'buy' it by means of downpayments?

I'd say those who will not be affected by the impending final oil crisis are those who are being driven around in limousines; those at the very top of the income scale.

[Booster]

17. If memory serves me correctly, I believe one of the first cuts made

by the dimson was research in alternative energy. Pay back to his buddies in the oil business.

[shance]

20. Wow Spenbax. I guess that happened along with international health

planning of women. I did not know that.

That explains alot......

[Agent Orange]

32. Solar Energy works! but centralized sources feed the machine...

What a great thread for my first post at this wonderful site. I worked in the fledgling Solar Energy field, until Ronald Reagan scuttled the federal tax credits, and Dukemejian followed suit and threw away CA state credits.

Solar works, and with a bit of encouragement from the state and federal government, it should be much more prevalent than it is.



http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/energy/powertower.html

Why don't more people speak of projects like this?

[rman]

34. welcome to DU

enjoy your stay

[hexola]

36. I am adding a solar room/green house on the back of my house...

The furnace is shot in this place - and I am open to any ideas for heating. We are rural.

Seriously considering some DC LED lighting...