Domestic violence: Why do so many men still get away with beating wives?

[prolesunited]

There is an excellent article in the July/August issue of Mother Jones. Although some progress has been made, there is still such a long way to go. However, I really don't see much focus on this issue these days.

Here's some alarming statistics:
* Between 1 and 4 million women in U.S. are victims
* 31% of women slain are murdered by husbands, boyfriends or exes, the majority killed after trying to flee
* Domestic violence ranked No. 1 in cause of homelessness in 44% of cities surveyed.
* 40% of assaults began during women's first pregnancy, with homicide being second leading cause of death of pregnant women
*$4.1 billion spent yearing on medical and mental health care as direct result of domestic violence.

Not surprisingly, this administration does not view it as a serious problem. Federal family violence prevention programs were underfunded by $48 million this year.


So, why do you think this is still such a problem? What are some possible solutions? What are your thoughts about these statistics? Do they surprise you? Have you been effected by this issue?

And, yes, I realize dometic violence can be directed at men as well. The article pegs that number at 15%, so we are basically talking about violence directed at women by men. Feel free to start your own thread if you want to address that issue.

[BiggJawn]

1. Probably for the same reason so many women get away...

...with abusing their husbands.

Nobody wants to talk about it. Ignore it and it'll go away.

We still have a long way to go....

[prolesunited]

6. I did acknowledge that situation takes place

However, that number is about only 15% of the cases. So, tell me who's getting away with the most in this situation, men or women? Based on the statistics, the problem has a *much* greater impact on women.

Just saying women get away with it, too, albeit in far smaller numbers, does absolutely nothing to address the situation.

[BiggJawn]

24. Won't argue with you there.

Yes, it still does have a greater impact on women. And I feel that it's still something most people would rather sweep under the rug, and that includes the victims.

What would I suggest? I don't know. I fix busted TV sets, not people. Not even myself.

I'm almost sorry I responded to you, because you want answers and I doin't have any. all I have is a victim's perspective, and some would question the validity of of THAT, because I'm a man.

[prolesunited]

30. I won't question the validity of that

I have seen the evidence in your posts over the years.

Just remember, the majority of women are not like that and I'll remember the majority of men are not a mirror for my bad experiences with them.

[BiggJawn]

41. Agreed...

Hey, I ain't maddatchu, and at least I WANT to get better. I see a lot of people of both sexes who never do. They hook-up with a victimizer over and over. THAT cycle I recognize and want to stop.

BTW, I'm up to 30 miles in 2:30 consistently, how's your summer going?

[prolesunited]

43. I had surgery on July 5

and am just now walking a bit, so there probably won't be any riding in my future until at least mid-August or September and that would have to be on my hybrid. I don't imagine I'll be on my road bike the rest of the season. :cry:

You're doing well, though. Keep up the good work!

[BiggJawn]

51. Bummer!

Here's hopin' for a full recovery!
At least you don't let a little thing like near-freezing temperatures chase you inside, like some big guy I know...:-)

[leetrisck]

33. The abused men are very under reported

because men get laughed off the planet by just about everyone if they claim abuse and believe me, there is lots of it around. As far as the statistics - who knows - anybody can make statistics say anthing. One abused person - man or woman - is one too many.

[hexola]

103. How many men report abuse? Not many...

I dont buy the statistics...

How many guys are going to report that they were beat up by a 120 pound woman?

Not many...female on male abuse is WAY underreported...

So perhaps more women get away with it...as a ratio - per incident...

Plus all the social mechanisms are geared toward women...

But - I guess I don't doubt that it's mostly a male problem...

[minxy]

7. Most probably the answer is financial.....

Look what most of us are up against financially day to day. Very difficult for man or woman to make a break from the other and try a fresh start. Just think about what it entails and if you don't have a small bankroll to do it.

[freeplessinseattle]

16. actually, there are different reasons, the dynamics are different

take time to think about it rather than knee-jerk. we know men get abused too, indisputable.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. A variety of reasons:

Some but not all women:

1. Are economically dependent upon their men to survive.
2. Are afraid for their safety and/or lives if they leave them.
3. Are not given sanctuary by societal institutions should the women leave and need protection and economic assistance, sometimes including children.
4. Are deluded that the last beating was THE last beating.
5. Are not supported by their family when they have enough courage to disclose their circumstances.
6. Are afraid to tell anyone.

And other reasons. These women are literally beaten down and can't think at their best when they are frightened and in despair.

I welcomed the courts allowing Battered Wives Syndrome as a defense to murdering an abusive husband.

[bryant69]

3. That's the thing - it's a catch 22 problem

The one thing we need to do as a society is provide sanctuary - but the rest of those problems, other than raising people's awareness of the issue, I'm not sure what we can do about them.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[prolesunited]

10. You put forth a lot of good reasons

Any ideas for solving any of these problems?

One of the women featured in the article murdered her husband after years of abuse. On the night she killed him, he had tied her to the bed and raped and beat her. When she was arrested, she was horribly bruised. She got 15 years because she had bought a gun beforehand to protect herself. How could this not have been ruled self-defense? One of the problems was that she initially lied, but I would argue that her mental state led to that.

[northzax]

20. self defense must be spontaneous

not premeditated. In this case, she bought a gun to protect herself from him specifically, that shows rational behaviour, and if she was able ot go out and buy a gun, she cuold have left him. But she deliberately went back into that situation, with a deadly weapon in hand.

[prolesunited]

27. So, you're basically saying that it's her fault

and she deserves to be in jail?

"She could have left him" -- Yes, it's always that simple. Where would she go with her kids? When she's the victim of years of abuse, why should she be the one forced out of the home? And most women are killed trying to flee because the courts and society don't protect or shelter them.


If you're living in a dangerous neighborhood and decide to buy a gun and then one day you are assualted and use your gun, is it premeditated? She didn't kill him while he was sleeping. She killed him in the midst of him attacking her. He is beating and raping her and she has no right to self-defense?

Why would you blame the victim in this case?

[northzax]

56. that she killed him?

yes, it's her fault. it is in now way, shape or form her fault that he abused her physically, emotionally, mentally or in any other way, and I'm not saying that, emotionally, he didn't get what was coming to him, cause he did. BUT. from a philosphical, moral and legal perspective, her actions do not fit into the category of self defense.

Teh neighborhood analogy is weak, and you know it. If there is a particular person in my neighborhood who threatens me and commits acts of violence against me, specifically, and I have done everything in my power to stop it, including reporting it to the police and documenting it. If I buy a gun,m thinking to myself 'the next time bob harrases me, i'm gonna kill him' that's not self defense, it's premeditated. If I buy a gun to protect against the vague threat of a dangerous world, it's self defense.

She bought the gun with the intention of killing a specific person. That is different than buying a gun to protect against a vague threat. the first is intentional, the second is self defense. it's shows premeditation and deliberate action. With that much thought in advance, she could have left. I'm not saying it would be easy to do so, I don't know her particular circumstances, but you have a moral obligation, not to mention a legal one, to avoid executing someone whenever possible. She failed to do that. Sorry, it's a terrible situation, but an easy legal question.

And you're telling me that showing up at a hospital after just being tied to a bed, beaten and raped would not lead them to act? I find that hard to believe. how many times did she cal the police and report these acts of violence? what? none? sorry. There are many cases in which women have acted in true self defense to protect themselves, and many women who have sacrificed to get themselves and their children a better, safer life. don't cheapen their actions with this woman's inability to ask for help, get help or solve her problems with anything but a premeditated act of violence. She is no better, in this circumstance than her not-mourned asshole of a husband.

[prolesunited]

64. I'm not going to sit here and dissect

a case that you haven't even read and I only have the facts of which were printed in a magazine article. There was documentation of a long history of abuse; she did previously go to a shelter; family and coworkers were aware of battles from the constant bruises and injuries. I wasn't even saying that she should not have been punished, not that she hasn't been already punished enough, but 15 years was excessive in this case.

Her clemency was pending before Mel Carnahan before he was killed.

"this woman's inability to ask for help, get help or solve her problems with anything but a premeditated act of violence. She is no better, in this circumstance than her not-mourned asshole of a husband."

Again, blaming the victim and having the nerve to say she is no better than her husband is incredible. It's not like on a whim and with no provocation that she bought a gun and killed him and is blaming abuse to get away with it as you seem to be implying. I hope no one you love ever found in the same situation. And, if they are, that you can muster a little more compassion.

[northzax]

67. where was her family?

the ones that documented all of her suffering, why didn't they intervene? Why did she return from the shelter? all very complicated, I'm sure. It is my belief that killing someone should be the last resort.
I'm not a subscriber to Mother Jones, so I can't read past the line that includes "12 gauge shotgun" so I don't know the actual circumstances of that night as reported by MJ. and a google search for Shelley Povis turns up nothing else. So all I have to go on is the fact that she returned to him, time and time again. She never went to the police with a face that her friend describes as "unrecognizable." I repeat she made no real effort to leave or get help Even in 1994 showing up at a police station after being beaten is going to get some action. you can't say the system failed her, she never even tried.

Why did she buy that gun? that is the key point of order, morally. did she buy it to kill her husband? the answer to that hasto be 'yes.' a shot gun is not a particularly good defensive weapon, it's hard to conceal. The only purpose of a shotgun is to kill something, it is an offensive weapon.

The next fine point of law is that violence can be used in self defense only to prevent an imminent danger or one that is occuring at the time. You can shoot your husband while he is beating you, or when you have reason to believe he is about to, and you have no escape, but not immediately afterwards. To return to your example of the dangerous neighborhood. I can pull my gun on a mugger before I get mugged, or during the crime, but not when he's walking away from me down the street. The first two are imminent or occuring danger, the third is revenge and vengance. Perhaps you can explain it, since I can't read the rest of the article, what was the imminent threat that he posed at the instant he was shot, that she could not avoid, save by killing him. Was he concious? was he threatening her with more violence? was he physically preventing her from calling the police? or was it her own inability to leave that justified the killing?

I repeat, one more time. I do not believe that you can justify killing another human being, under any circumstances unless you have reason to believe that you are in iminent danger and there is no other way to avoid peril.

You say that you agree she should have been punished. (any previous punishment she may have recieved is the reason for the crime, not the punishment for it) that means you agree she was wrong, we don't punish people for self defensive actions. I would argue that her actions, and the actions of the system to help her, that includes her family, should be taken into account. In 15 years, she never reported this violent crime to police, at least the article doesn't mention it. Her mother never reported it. There is no doubt she felt trapped, but the point is, she wasn't the only time she tried to escape, she walked back into it. He didn't keep her prisoner, they lived in her mother's house. You have to make a serious effort, before the application of premeditated violence.

Look, as I said before, Rodney is no great loss to the human gene pool. I'm sure his mother misses him, but I bet no one else does, I sure don't. Also, the stigma associated to spousal abuse is part of the problem, the fact many women are unable to report the crime due to shame is inexcusable and a black mark on our society. But the fact remains that many women do get help, and do escape these situations. For whatever reason, Shelley didn't take advantage of the help offered to her, and her family never insisted, that is the great tragedy. But just because someone needs killing (as Rodney certainly did) doesn't mean she was justified in doing it, in the scenario painted.

For the record: there is no shame in having someone larger and stronger than you beat you up. once. The shame is in allowing it to happen, over and over, to someone including yourself and not doing anything about it.

[Name removed]

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[lukasahero]

70. Where's the applause emoticon?

Oh here it is. :applause: :yourock: :headbang: :woohoo:

Thank you for saying what many of us here cannot or will not.

[northzax]

71. no thanks

good for you getting out. bad for you for going back after each beating to recieve another one. But you escaped the cycle and I assume you didn't shoot someone to do it?

yes, by the way, shame on anyone who continues to place their children in harm's way. That's what Shelley did, for 15 years, she exposed her daughter to an abusive alcoholic. Every time she didn't do something about it, she taught her daughter that is was ok for her husband to beat her. So yes, shame on her for that. And frankly, if you have children who watched you get beat up, many, many, many times, shame on you too, for not putting their needs first and making sure that you didn't get beat

You have no evidence that Shelley ever went to the police to report this criminal activity. not once. Maybe you did, I have no idea, but the idea that the police might not do anything is not cause for skipping the legal system entirely. We are trying to live in a civilised society, and part of that society is that we report being the victim of a crime to the proper authorities. In this case, that is the police. she never did that. not once. She never gave the system a chance to work. This is not Pakistan, where the family of a victim metes out their own justice. You cannot kill someone, after the fact, and claim self defense. you can't do it. that's not the way the system works.

But your hypothetical concern about what might have happened if the crime had been reported is not acceptable. sorry. vigilante justice went out with the wild west. this is why victims of particular crimes are not allowed to serve on juries for similar crimes, or ones related to them. You can't consider it rationally, and our system is, theoretically, based on rational principles, Justice is (theoretically) blind, no?

So yes, I blame her for not taking advantage of the resources avaliable to her and continuing to expose her child to years of violence, and before attempting to seriously escape the violence, killing someone in cold blood. Yeah, that's her fault. Sucks, in an instant she went from victim to criminal. And she's still a victim of abuse, but that does not excuse vigilante justice, or a change in 300 years of accepted self-defense law. Sorry. Shelley was failed by her family and friends, and abused by a monster. But that does not excuse her actions the night she killed him.

you would have a better argument if you could demonstrate that she had tried to escape, and been returned to him. But she never did. If she had called the police, and they had done nothing. but that didn't happen either. It's without a doubt a terrible situation, but she was convicted by a jury of her peers, an opportunity her asshole of a husband didn't get. and no, just because you abuse women, or children, doesn't mean you don't get your day in court. That's the price we pay for living in a putatively civil society.

[Name removed]

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[northzax]

74. you really think your son didn't know?

then you are fooling yourself. the children always know believe me. Children know everything that goes on in a house. My strong advice to you is to get him counseling, otherwise i will put even money on the fact that he will beat his wife. That's where they learn it, you know? save him from that.

oh, don't worry, I'm an ignorant fuck, women should never report violence to the police, but they shouldn't kill their abusers either, wait a minute, what should they do? wait for years until they can escape? sounds like that worked for you, so it should work for everyone? the conversation you bumped into was about her decision to kill her husband. I was arguing she commited a crime. you called me an 'ignorant fuck.' now why might I think you disagreed with me on the point I was trying to make?

[Name removed]

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[northzax]

77. yes, I am incredibly disturbed

how dare I use the commonly accepted definition of self defense, dating back to English common law, from when it came in the early 1600's?

how dare I criticise society for making it difficult for women to escape abusive relationships?

how dare I point out that children are victims of spousal abuse, even if no one ever lays a finger on them?

how dare I say that her abuser got what was coming to him when she killed him?

How dare I say that anyone who abuses another human being should be held up for ridicule as a pahtetic human being?

yup, seriously disturbed, that's me. misogynistic, that's me.

ten bucks says the man who abused you saw his mother abused when he was a child. She probably thought he never knew about it. Seriously. That's not an attack on you, but a promise, having worked with children of alcoholics (I'm one myself) and abusers (thankfully not) I can tell you that my parents were convinced I didn't know what was going on. but I did. And after years of working through those issues, I hope to not repeat the same mistakes my parents made. the Kids always know. Sorry about that.

[Name removed]

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[northzax]

85. and everyone thought

that your husband treated you well, right? no one knew he was abusing you, isn't that what you said?

statistically, men who abuse women learned it growing up. Ask anyone who works with dysfunctional families. some don't, but most do.

I hope and pray that your son is the exception to this rule. the fact is, few people can escape what they were taught in their early years.

[Name removed]

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[northzax]

91. no blame

unless calling you a crime victim is placing blame on you. The woman I was orginially talking about exposed her child to this relationship for 14 years. Sounds like once there was a child involved you got out. Good for you. I was simply pointing out that the children of abusive relationships need counseling to break the cycle of abuse.

[Mandate My Ass]

96. Not blame, you said "shame"

You said any woman who was hit more than once should be ashamed. Sorry, that's just as wrong as wrong can be, and it's insulting. It's the same sleazy tactic an abuser takes, you only got what was coming to you.

There is a term for the fallout that affects those with PTSD, an affliction from which I'll suffer the rest of my life because of the abuse I endured. That term is secondary wounding. The abuser causes a deep, initial wound. When the victim finally breaks free from the cycle of violence, no small feat, they are often met with people who say things that either diminish the horror of the situation they faced or put the blame squarely on the victim. This secondary wounding is often more painful than the initial trauma which caused the syndrome.

As long as there are people saying these things, women who break free will find that the mindset the abuser created to facilitate his abuse, "there's something wrong with you" will be repeated to them from complete strangers and not only is there no truth to it, but it reinforces the sick theory that abused women, like raped women, are responsible for the bad behavior of others.

It's a slap in the face, and much worse than a physical one.

[Name removed]

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[noiretextatique]

107. there is something odd about

a complete stranger insinuating that someone you raised, know, and love is or will be an abuser. i can certainly see why you are angry about that.

[Name removed]

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[northzax]

86. ok

I assume you can now cite, chapter and verse, how I was being 'mean' in these posts? was it reccomending counseling for victims of violent crime? suggesting that people call the police when a crime was committed? I don't get it. please let me know.

[derby378]

88. With all due respect to social workers...

...I don't want wife-beaters breathing free air. Cops need to leave the pot smokers alone and start incarcerating these assholes by the gross.

[northzax]

89. no arguements there

beating someone up is assault, and should be prosecuted as such. the social workers are for the victims.

[bloom]

90. I've learned not to engage

in these types of confrontations. But I thought it needed pointing out.

You might try reading over your posts and try to think about what it would be like to read them from another's POV.

[northzax]

92. unfortunately,

the posts I was conversing with have vanished into the ether. So a once sided conversation always looks strange and unbalanced.

nice ducking of the question though, please feel free to PM me and let me know, I really am interested and will not take offense (isn't the whole point of this that an abuser must be confronted?)

[bloom]

93. one technique that appears

be affective is trying on the role of the other person.

So if you could imagine being a mother who stayed in a relationship longer than you wished you had in retrospect - and someone was saying what you were saying - how would you feel about that? (Maybe you can't imagine anyone doing that).

I don't think that is ducking. I could go find words and phrases - but it was really your overall message.

Maybe you think women need to be confronted and that is why you wrote it the way you did. I think women should be supported in their decisions. It's not up to me whether a relative stays in a relationship that does not appear to me to be healthy. I think women are more likely to make good decisions when they are supported - not when they are blamed.

You seem to want to think if you make them feel horrible enough about staying then they will leave. That is what I think you were trying to do. Make women feel horrible.

I don't think it works.

[northzax]

94. thanks, but that was certainly not my intention

which was the reason for my repeated comments on this thread that the shame should lie with the abuser, not the victim. That has been repeated in multiple posts on this thread, I'm not sure how I can say that more clearly or more repetitively. However, there exposing your children to abuse and not doing anything about it should be a source of shame and regret.

However, once children are involved, it is inexcusable to expose children to abusive relationships. That is an absolute. Adults can choose to remain in abusive relationships, if they so choose, because they are adults. Children have no say in the matter whatsoever. If pointing out the damage to children is the way to get women to leave abusive relationships and get their children professional help, then that's perfectly acceptable to me, they take precedence. Frankly, I would like to see a world in which women feel that remaining in abusive relationships is unacceptable, and frankly, if women who stayed too long in their own minds, acknowledge that, then it may help other women from making the same mistake. In this instance, the involvement of children is the most important aspect to me.

waiting 25 years until the abuse outweighs whatever is keeping someone in a relationship is not the best choice, but an acceptable one, as long as you are not forcing someone else, like a child, to be involved. That is what I was trying to say. If I implied otherwise, that was my mistake, thank you for bringing it to my attention.

it's worth noting that, in exchange for that, I was called a 'fucking moron' a 'fucking idiot' and 'asshole' and somewhat amusingly, a 'pussy.' so obviously I struck a nerve, don't you think?

[noiretextatique]

95. i can put it plainly: you were incredibly judgemental

and unbelievably lacking in empathy. it's easy to say what someone "should" do, but it's another thing entirely to be in a situation that may be dangerous, unpredictable, etc., and "act rationally."

i say this not to hurt, but because i see myself in your posts. i have a friend who has been an abusive situation for about five years, (i came along in year 3), and i can't tell you how frustrating it's been to try to support her without enabling her. i have tried compassion, tough love, ignoring, demanding...perhaps to the point of verbal abuse, but none of that worked until SHE was ready to do something about her situation.

now that the divorce is final, she is finally opening up about just how awful the situation has been, and WE can finally talk honestly about how much danger she is in now, because the most dangerous time is when the abuser knows it's over...when he knows he's lost control.

my friend puzzles me because she is quite capable of defending herself...in fact, the physical abuse has been mutual. but he is a psychological abuser, and for some reason, she doesn't seem to have much defense against that. i'm not sure what that's all about, but i am encouraging her to seek some therapy so she won't chose this same personality again.

anyway...having seen this cycle before, i know it's a process to get out of and over an abusive situation, not a decision, per se. in my friend's case...she had to put some things in motion before she could leave, to make sure she would be safe after she leaves.

[Mandate My Ass]

98. Exactly.

The abuser spends years creating the psychological environment where he can abuse with impunity. An abuser keeps his victim on an emotional roller coaster by a variety of methods, some with controlling his victim's access to outside opinions and influences, driving friends away, feigning helplessness etc.

Once he establishes dependence and dominance, he then plays the victim and preys on the better nature of the person he's abusing. Someone who hasn't gone through this process cannot imagine the power of its grip.

If there are kids involved, he often plays both the hurt parent and raises the specter of retaliation. Statistics bear out that women who leave are in much more danger of being murdered. That's a pretty powerful impetus for a mother to try everything she can to make it stop, something she always believes is in her power until she reaches the breaking point. Sorry to hear about your friend but she's chosen to be a survivor, something we all want but are not always sure how to achieve.


Thanks, noiretblu.

[noiretextatique]

99. i know the cycle...from experience

i was briefly in its grips myself. my ex threatened to kill herself if i left...so i stayed a year longer than i should. she became increasing more jealous, violent, and crazy, but i convinced myself that it wasn't damaging me because: she was smaller than me and couldn't hurt me physically. so...i really can understand the hold that man had on my friend. and as i told her: the thing that woke me up was attempted murder, and i really don't want her to experience what i experienced. after my ex tried to kill me (swung a crowbar at my head, barely missing my temple)...i finally understood that she was a danger to me, even though she was only 4'11''. funny thing about that..when she'd attack me, i never fought back because i was bigger than her...until that night. that night...i picked her up and threw her about five feet into a flower bed. she went back to her car, followed me, and hit me with the crowbar...she claimed she was scared :eyes: abuse is an issue in same sex relationships too.
anyway...i understand the emotional manipulation...the uncertainty, and also the (mistaken) belief that, as this man tells my friend, if you leave, the person may kill him/herself. and to complicate things further: she was bisexual before she married him, and she's coming out as a lesbian. he constantly harps on her sexuality and makes it impossible for her to have any friends.
my friend is going to be ok...now that she's taking this situation seriously as the dangerous situation that it is.
thank you for sharing your story, mandate my ass. and thank you for reminding me: i've been there too.
:hug:

[Mandate My Ass]

102. yes I do understand

that this situation exists in same sex relationships. It has more to do with insecurity, and how one deals with it, than testosterone.

I'm glad for you and your friend that you've found your way out of that mess and the danger it posed. Despite the ignorance of a poster or two, this thread has brought up some valuable information and experiences. :hug:

[Eloriel]

100. Yes, it certainly does look unbalanced

Your tone makes you look like an abuser yourself, and the repeated removal of posts by someone who was obviously a battered wife herself, while yours remains, makes DU look -- well, starkly misogynist. (Whodathunkit??)

Your understanding of the dynamics of domestic violence and battered wife syndrome is abysmal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_wife_syndrome

Battered wife syndrome is a recognized psychological condition to describe a woman who, because of constant and severe physical abuse by a male partner, becomes depressed and unable to take any independent action that would allow her to escape the abuse. The condition explains why abused women often do not seek assistance from others, fight their abuser, or leave the abusive situation. Sufferers have low self-esteem, and often believe that the abuse is their fault. Such women usually refuse to press charges against their abuser, and refuse all offers of help, often becoming aggressive or abusive to others who attempt to offer assistance. Although the condition usually affects women, children and more rarely men can also exhibit the syndrome.

More controversially, continual abuse has been used, at law, as a defence for abused persons who subsequently attack or kill the abuser, or engage in violence or sexual abuse against others at the behest of the abuser. However, there is no consensus in the medical profession that such abuse results in a mental condition severe enough to reach the legal standard of insanity required under the McNaghten rule - that the abused person was incapable of distinguishing right from wrong when they committed the offence. In fact, many psychologists and psychiatrists believe that a person who meets the clinical definition of battered wife syndrome would simply be mentally incapable of either attacking their abuser, or attacking another at the behest of the abuser.

This view is consistent with an evolutionary psychology view of Battered wife syndrome resulting from activation of a psychological trait seen in capture-bonding or Stockholm syndrome.

-- more (including LOTS of hot links throughout) --

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

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[noiretextatique]

109. unfortunately...DU is a microcosm

and i think all your deletted posts are a testament to the OP's original point. many people just don't get it.

[Eloriel]

111. Exactly. I actually can't believe my eyes.

I don't care WHAT you said, whether each of your deleted posts was replete with personal attacks or not, the uneven deletion is simply stunning, and there's NO WAY to excuse it. None. None whatsoever.

In a nutshell, almost all the posts by an avowed victim are deleted, while someone who is completely ignorant of such things as battered wife syndrome, the cycle of abuse, etc., expresses literally NO compassion or understanding but who DARES pass judgment on you and rips you up one side and down another are left for all to see.

I haven't "studied" those posts to see if I'd consider them "personal attacks" or not (usually an incredibly subjective determination anyway, depending on who's on duty and what mood they're in), but the clearly uneven deletion is just -- well, astonishing. It CLEARLY appears misogynist and there's just no way around that, even if it wasn't (which would be hard to argue in the first place, IMO).

[Jack_DeLeon]

38. Cause she had a bad jury and/or explained herself wrong...

[indigo32]

4. Going to have to post and run

but... if I had to wager a guess, I think you'd find economic dependance a major issue.

[Darwins Finch]

5. Probably an obvious answer, but...

...I'd say men get away with it because it's a patriarchal culture. Men still hold most of the reigns of power, as well as media control, and are the gender more likely to use force and violence to maintain their power base. Not to mention the both overt and subtle messages constantly communicated to women in our culture that they should demure and accept what men do, even to the extant that it's better to have a man who beats you than to have no man at all.

It's a sick situation that is deeply woven into the weft of our culture. And only education and communication are going to make it go away.

(Disclosure - I'm a male.)

edit - spelling

[alarcojon]

54. Good answer

male here. It's so deeply woven into our culture that most people don't even see it. When a man is abusing his wife (physically or otherwise) there is not an institutional support network for the victim nor a shared cultural understanding of the problem. As no_hypocrisy point out, the victim is typically not supported by her family or by society. These attitudes need to change, but that is an incremental educational process we as a society need to take on.

As a brief aside: I completely agree that this problem affects women far more than men. However, I WILL point out that there are probably fewer resources for battered men, due to the social stigma they endure. While battered women's shelters exist, if not to the extent and support level I would like, I can't imagine shelters for battered men existing in the same numbers.

I also wish I had more concrete answers for the OP, but education and communication are the biggies, although they are difficult and take a long time. I would add: increasing the institutional support for all victims of domestic abuse, keeping the primary focus on women while also serving battered men. This would include more and better women's shelters, greater discussion of these issues at the earliest appropriate educational level, and increased public service announcements about domestic violence.

Let's keep in mind that war and its attendant culture are generally correlated with increased male hostility towards women. We are swimming upstream in the present political climate.

[Rich Hunt]

62. social disapproval

I think social disapproval would go a long way.

I've seen far too many people turn their backs because they "don't want to get involved" or they're "afraid".

I am sick of that excuse.

I am also sick of people who stay friends with abusive assholes and who tell the victim that so-and-so is "their friend".

A lot of people prefer comfortable lives and would prefer to assume that the victim is lying, even if they don't have the guts to say it to the victim's face.

Only so much blame you can place on the abuser. Cowardly societies enable abuse through social approval.

[Cerridwen]

8. Because women are still thought of as an extension of the husband

A current example of that is blowing the cover of Valerie Plame to get back at Joe Wilson.

Because women still think it's "their fault" and most people don't bother to disabuse them of that idea, and in fact, in many instances agree that if only she would "stand up to him" it would stop.

Because it's not considered serious enough if it happens to "only women" which is why we frequently see "it happens to men, too" comments.

Because we have very limited resources to address the issue - because - see 2 previous points.

Because we live in a sick, toxic society.

[LisaLynne]

9. I think a lot of people think ...

the problem has been dealt with. There used to be much more attention paid to it, and I think because it's no longer a front and center issue in the media or in our culture, despite the number of lives it affects, people tend to assume it's been solved. Raising awareness on all levels is important. If people could volunteer at a women's shelter and see and hear the women and children that come through there, it would go a long way toward getting people to realize the magnitude of this problem.

I think there are economic factors, but also just some ingrained societal pressures that foster domestic violence.

[slackmaster]

11. I worked as a crisis intervention counselor for part of a summer

So, why do you think this is still such a problem? What are some possible solutions? What are your thoughts about these statistics? Do they surprise you? Have you been effected by this issue?

The stats don't surprise me at all.

Of all the people who called the phone hotline I was working, the most hopeless were the young battered wives. I quit that job partly because management policy prohibited giving any kind of directive advice. I could volunteer information about where help was available, but I was not permitted to say "I think you are in danger, please get yourself out of there before he comes home from work/the bar/WestPac." Screw tact; I tend to be direct with people so that job was a poor fit.

I think women need to be taught to assert themselves better. Girls and women need to learn to respect themselves first, then to demand the same from boys and men. Couples need serious mentoring before they venture into pregnancy.

A lot of the women I spoke with on that awful job were very young wives of military people. That's always been a mess. Military people get married way too young. Few people in their late teens and early 20s are emotionally mature enough to cope with extended periods of separation.

[Eloriel]

108. You've just defined a solution to a problem that is impossible

I think women need to be taught to assert themselves better. Girls and women need to learn to respect themselves first, then to demand the same from boys and men.

As I was reviewing google links for my post upthread, what I was reminded about is that women who find themselves in abusive relationships are typically women who come from and believe in traditional roles for women and men and families, etc. Seems to me that pretty much precludes educating for very much "assertiveness" in her relationships, starting probably well before kindergarten with her mother and esp. father.

[jojo54]

12. 2 reasons

1. men are narcissistic (which includes physical, mental and emotional abuse).
2. women are passive & apologize too much

I've done a lot of research on this. I'm married to a mental/emotional narcissist; I WAS passive. Finally confronted him, gave him research papers on it and said "Get off my back"!!

If any men are reading this post, sorry. I know some of you aren't all that bad.

[slackmaster]

18. Man here, I agree with you and would add one thing...

In general women tend to reach any particular stage of maturity at a younger age than men do. When you see a married couple in their early 20s the difference in maturity levels can be striking. The woman may be thinking seriously about forming a family, planning for the future, etc. while the man is still acting largely like a bratty self-centered teenager.

I wasn't ready for marriage until age 30, and my maturity level was a problem even then.

[eternalburn]

13. Personal experience.....

The left side of my face was shattered by an ex. I am facially disfigured and have a metal implant that replaces my lower eye socket and cheekbone. He was only charged with a misdemeanor because I made a poor witness ( I overheard the prosecutor and defense discussing this in the hall before court). I was beaten so badly that to this day I have little memory of the incident. He served 90 days in a county jail.

The other 27 witnesses listed in the court documents (none of which interrupted the beating) did not show up for court. No attempt by the court was made to bring them in.

While I had an order of protection I was told by the police that there was nothing they could do until the abuser crossed the threshhold of the door to my home.

[prolesunited]

14. Thank you for having the courage

to share your experience and I am so sorry for what you endured. It certainly appears that the justice system failed you. Was this a more recent or long past event? I hope you are safe now.

I've watched my sister bounce through a series of abusive relationships, so I do have some experience with the issue. Thankfully, she finally married a decent man who would never hurt her.

[eternalburn]

17. Date....

October 9th, 1993. DuPage County in Illinois.

I am safe from him now but I know whomever he is with is at severe risk. That haunts me more than the fear I have for my own wellbeing :(

[geek tragedy]

15. Many reasons. Here's a short list:

1. Complete loss of self-esteem/isolation from others caused by years of abusive and controlling behavior by the husband.

2. Economic dependence/lack of housing.

3. Cultural/family pressure to stay in marriage.

4. Immigration issues--many battered women fear deportation.

5. Police don't take orders of protection as seriously as they should.

6. Children--even if they leave him and take the kids, they can't leave the area and they still have to see him regularly for visitation.

7. The legal system is not user-friendly.

[KG]

19. it's still a socially acceptable action in a patriarchal society.

[LWolf]

21. In addition to some of the other reasons already offered:

It can be a generational, cultural thing. If young girls grow up watching their mother get beaten by the SO, and get beaten by parents as a means of "discipline," it is "just the way men are" and they don't ever expect it to be different.

Or, in my case, after a childhood of watching my mother play "the victim," I swore I would never be the victim. It didn't help me choose men; I still had never experienced men who didn't abuse or abandon women, so didn't expect any different. But the first time my husband raised a hand to me, I hit him back. And every time he thought to do so in the years that ensued, I made sure that he didn't walk away unscathed, no matter what happened to me. It took a few years for me to figure out that I wasn't stopping him; it took a decade to leave the marriage. And more years after that to realize that there were actually men out there who didn't negotiate relationships with violence; that it didn't have to be that way.

And one other unsavory reason; when women have been made "powerless" by a patriarchal culture, one of the responses is that some find personal power by becoming a "victim." My mother was one. Playing the "victim" role means that you never have to take responsibility for your own life; it's always someone else's fault. My mom was about 50 before she evolved from passive victim to active person who created her own reality and evicted abusers from her life.

[HughBeaumont]

22. Unless the "police" have eye-to-eye proof of the abuse while it happens

They don't do a DAMNED thing. Liability. "I'm two months from retiring." And other such bullshit excuses.

Hell, in the case of Tracey Thurman, they WATCHED and did NOTHING as her husband stabbed her and kicked her in the head repeatedly.

Plus, the way we handle domestic abuse cases in this country is a total JOKE. My wife, who's a social worker . . . man, don't get her started about how bad it is. You'll be here for hours.

[prolesunited]

23. What do you mean about liability?

If they arrest a man, they will be in trouble? Wouldn't they face a greater liability if they didn't act and the woman was killed or seriously injured?

[HughBeaumont]

25. This article explains it better . . .

http://ca80.lehman.cuny.edu/gallery/Hernandez/dv.htm

Domestic violence often becomes a matter for civil or family court, thereby removing the criminal element which enables the batterer to avoid criminal prosecution and continue battering. Police discretion is the deciding factor in arrest. Often because of their own bias, police will not make an arrest claiming that there is no probable cause and will blame the woman as the "proximate cause of her own harm." A classic example of blaming the victim.

With very few exceptions, the courts have consistently ruled against women (or the families of murdered women) stating that although the police have the authority to act it does not imply that they have any constitutional duty to act. A 1994 FBI publication regarding police liability in domestic assault cases states that "The government has no constitutional duty to protect citizens against private domestic violence". (As if private violence is less violent or less criminal than public violence.)

Judges frequently ridicule women who bring lawsuits against police departments and state agencies that fail to protect them from batterers. The burden of proof is always on the woman. With each court case fought, the burden becomes heavier and heavier.

[Darwins Finch]

32. Great point!

The mere fact that domestic violence is handled differently from any other kind of violence points out the inherent sexism involved. It's tacitly admitting that men (who wrote the laws) believe that there's many a situation when a women just plain "needs to be beaten", and therefore the situation doesn't automatically qualify as criminal.

Appalling.

[redqueen]

48. Good God...

You're right...

:cry:

[eternalburn]

26. An interesting article....

Man reported too ill for wife death trial

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/west/chi-0507160243jul16,1,7936642.story?coll=chi-newslocalwest-hed

~snip~

ROLLING MEADOWS -- An 82-year old man charged with misdemeanor domestic battery in the stabbing death of his wife is expected never to be well enough to stand trial, according to a report submitted Friday at a hearing in the Rolling Meadows branch of Cook County Circuit Court.

~link above to continue~ (article is only 3 paragraphs)


***Why only a misdemeanor?

[Love Bug]

35. But yet he wasn't too ill to stab her...

BULLSHIT!

[msongs]

28. because too many women think they deserve to be beaten ->

seems to me that in many situations where a person is abused, either by others or by self, as in drug use or placing one's self in danger, people will allow themselves to be abused to the same degree they abuse THEMSELVES. When the external abuser exceeds the amount of abuse a person is willing to accept from their own self abuse, that abused person will get out of the situation.
In other words, if a person thinks they deserve the abuse, for whatever reason, they will put up with it until they stop thinking they deserve the abuse.
Only when the real pain exceeds what a person thinks he/she deserves will an abused person take the proper way out by walking out the door.
All the excuses fade away (I have no place to go, I have no money, etc)and the person's desire to survive exceeds the willingness to be abused.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[rucky]

31. Officials need to pursue prosecution...and provide protection

even if the victim retracts her initial accusations.

they need a safe place to go, and then they'd be on a level playing field. Right now they're not.

[msongs]

34. agreed - crime is crime n/t

[bloom]

58. Attitudes vary

Some DAs prosecute without the cooperation of the victim. Some don't.

Some victims don't want the batterer to be prosecuted because they get into protection mode or they are reconciled or whatever.

It's best to consider it a crime against everybody and prosecute him anyway. For one thing - whether that victim wants him prosecuted or not - there may be other victims in the future. Plus it's a bad message all the way around - for society in general - to let it go.

I'm sure some places have better support systems than others for women.

[northzax]

73. which is a direct correlation

to our society's failure to empower many women to think they can survive on their own. And it's not education, wealthy, educated women are abused as well, but, for whatever reason, they cannot leave. It is past time for our society to quit the macho stereotype that being a victim of a violent crime, be it rape, molestation or other physical abuse, is not a cause for shame, it is shameful for the criminal, not the victim. Until that attitude, combined with the failure of many women to believe they can survive on their own, changes, we will not rid ourselves of this cancer.

Yes, there is a threshhold for many people when the pain exceeds the percieved value of the relationship, but we need to lower that threshold to ONE event, not years of them. being a spousal (or relationship, since marriage isn't always involved) abuser should be a source of ridicule for the abuser, not the abused.

[alkaline9]

29. This is an extremely worthy topic...

Man here. Just the thought of such awful violence makes me sick. It is true that there are MANY MANY MANY good men out there that would never consider laying a finger on their wife or girlfriend, but the sad reality is that there are MANY men (or women abusing men) that would.

Being a man who is one of the "good ones" it's sometimes hard to even imagine that such atrocities actually happen. I think it's also hard for a man to truly understand just how powerless a woman who is abused can feel in this situation. Men by definition are generally more rugged and, I think, go bumping and bruising through life more easily. But abuse isn't so much about the bumps and bruises as it is about the lack of power that the person being abused has. IMHO there REALLY needs to be more public support for victims of abuse so that there are other options for women (and men) being abused to get out of that situation. In addition I think awareness is key.

It has been mentioned in many posts above that police often do NOT do enough to stop domestic abuse. This may be something to be looked at, but I definitely think that there should be other outlets rather than simply relying on the police. Government is often criticized with trying to involve itself in a family or an individuals private matters. That would lead my argument even further away from police intervention. Awareness and aid needs to be easily available to victims.

It was also mentioned above that often women are brought up thinking that men have a right to be abusers, or at least they have learned that "this is just the way it is". Well, this is NOT he way it is. This is NOT acceptable. You do NOT have to deal with abuse. These should be the messages echoed loud and clear across America (the entire world really, but unfortunately many cultures are a lot worse than ours if you can believe that).

It's hard for me to really think of anything else that could quickly and effectively help this problem other than what I've mentioned. I'm open to suggestion though.

Very good topic prolesunited. Thank you for posting.

[prolesunited]

46. Thank you for your response

and welcome to DU. Hope you enjoy it here. :hi:

[Jack_DeLeon]

36. Cause not enough women are beating back...

My aunt told me a story about back in the 80s she was dating some Arab guy from Jordan who was going to college with her. One night she said he hit her, so she got a fry pan and hit him back, and that ending that shit pretty damn quick.

Blunt objects, firearms, or even other weapons can be quite effective and ending domestic violence.

[Karenina]

65. I worked on a hot-line in L.A.

many moons ago and finally burned out on the sheer numbers of calls from women in dangerous situations. What I did note was that they, who reported responding immediately (1st or 2nd incidents) with a level violence the man did not expect, reported NO FURTHER PHYSICAL CONFRONTATIONS. I also noted that if the battering had been going on for awhile, a sudden violent response from the woman was NOT EFFECTIVE at all as the man would escalate TO THE DEATH. Sick shit...

[ProfessorGAC]

37. It's Still Not Considered A Serious Problem

Despite the preponderance of evidence to the contrary, there is some sense that the solution, (leaving) is so easy, that it's just that woman's problem, not society's.

That's it in a nutshell. Read your stats, Proles. It's apallingly obvious that the authorities do not treat it as high priority, and the the medical community is lax (unlike their attention to child abuse), and drug and alcohol treatment programs do not focus enough on violent outcomes of overuse.

People who express their rage physically will most often do it against someone not perceived as a threat (physically, anyway). (Sort of like Silverspoon attacking Iraq's decimated military.)

And, of course, wive's are convenient targets for these bullies, because they're right there. Don't have to go looking for someone to pick a fight with. Just have to go from one room to another.

Lazy, cowardly little punks with a unrealized self-loathing that makes them take it out on the most convenient and minimally defensible targets.

The Professor

[ComerPerro]

39. It just doesn't get reported

[Mandate My Ass]

40. former battered wife

The stats don't surprise me at all. In fact, it's probably higher than that. For a culture that stresses it's all about "family values" we do little to nothing for families in distress. The family values crowd are probably the most contemptuous of domestic violence. To them it's about forcing a white, male, xtian, sexually repressive system which only benefits white, male, xtian misogynists.

It's not just economic dependance although my ex didn't begin beating me until I became pregnant (mionor slaps) and it worsened after my son was born.

Batterers take years setting up the psychological environment in which they alternate between punisher and victim. My ex used to say if I left him he would kill himself, he'd have no reason to live, other times he hinted he'd kill me and then himself. They put the responsibility for their behavior on you as well as your own. Your behavior(staying) caused me to beat you, your behavior (threat of leaving) causes me to beat you, your behavior (actually leaving) the other beatings will seem like a picnic in the park. See, if you'd just stop behaving badly, we'd all be happy?

It's a terrible way to live and while you're in it, you become paralyzed with fear and ashamed of your own victimization and your spouses obvious sickness.

[zanne]

42. What you went through was horrible...

Kudos to you for "healing" yourself as much as you have. When I was young, I was married to a batterer. I left after a year of marriage and hadn't heard from him in over 25 years until he called me about a month ago. As soon as I realized it was him, I hung up and ran to the bathroom to vomit. Again, congratulations on taking back some power from him. The psychological torture is unbelievable.

[prolesunited]

44. Thank you both

for posting your experiences.

It really illustrates that the solution -- just leave him -- is not often the road taken by women.

I saw my sister's self-confidence totally eroded by the men who abused her. It's not like they start out hitting you. Then, it would be easy to leave. But, they manipulate you and make you more and more dependent on them and convince you that you're worthless and no one else would want you. We have to stop blaming and shaming the victims.

Glad you are both safe and happy now.

[ProfessorGAC]

45. "Just Leave Him" Is Clearly Harder Said Than Done

If it were as easier as saying it, the stats wouldn't be so appalling.
The Professor

[Mandate My Ass]

47. I only wish I had solutions to share

The problem is, batterers need privacy in which to operate and often the victim is only too willing to keep it quiet for a multitude of reasons which have nothing to do with protecting their abuser. Also, they alienate anybody who cares about you and might help if they knew. Keeping in touch with friends is one of the main behaviors that would lead to an abusive episode. I was one of the lucky ones, I got away without suffering further violence but I'd be reluctant to say to someone who is in the predicament I was, "just leave him."

It's never that simple no matter what others say. It took me years of working in my home without his knowledge to get enough money together to escape and it was still no picnic because he refused to pay child support. I also had to sneak birth control. But that's a different topic altogether.

[ProfessorGAC]

50. I'm Glad You Brought That Up!

This happened to my sister. When we found out, my "Brousin" and i (long story, i can PM those who want to understand) paid a little visit to my BiL. We told him we now knew about it. We told him that he couldn't hide anymore. And, that if it happened again, things would be different than with my 4'11" 95# sister. The threat was implicit, yes, but nothing blatant. Just told him his cover was blown and any further incidents would be "dealt with".

I'm not 100% sure we would have actually done anything, but his knowing that his cover of darkness was gone prevented a further recurrance. Not sure we wouldn't have either. (Probably the italian in us that made us feel we needed to do SOMETHING!)

His forced shrinking from a position of dominance HELPED my sister walk away. Once he couldn't lord it over her, THEN she felt she could pull the pin. She did. She since remarried to a non-violent guy, had two kids, and is in a much better place.
The Professor

[Mandate My Ass]

53. Thanks for sharing

I'm so glad your sister got out and is happy now. Good for you for confronting him too and I'm glad he didn't force you to make a painful decision. Cowards pretty much do fold like a cheap suit when confronted with their actions.

Living happily ever after is the best revenge. :toast:

[noiretextatique]

101. you did the right thing

nothing sends a roach scurrying like turning on the light. i have double cousins: my mom's cousin married my father's brother, so i think i have some understanding what a "brousin" might be :D
you did what any caring brother would do, and i'm glad your sister survived and is doign well.

[China_cat]

59. Most common remark from a batterer

"See what you made me do?"

[H2O Man]

49. One serious problem

is that those who are in human services, and attempt to advocate for the victms of domestic violence, often find that there are police, DAs, and justices of the peace & judges who take a hostile stance towards those victims. This is not to say that a majority of police and court officials are this way. But I can say, with absolutely no risk of error, that the number of these people who take aggressively negative stances creates a very serious problem for society.

[johnnie]

52. From the women I knew who were in a violent situation

I have talked to many women who were in these situations and it always breaks my heart.
I just want to point out though, most of the time "not all" there were clear signs that the men they chose to date had these tendencies. Obviously it isn't the case in every situation, but it is in a lot of them. Although it might have been something like "He grabbed my arm real tight because he thought I was talking to another guy", it is still a sign.
I think that they have to teach women early in life about this. As I said, it isn't always the case, but if domestic violence can drop 10% it would be a lot.

[northzax]

83. a huge number of people in abusive relationships

both the abuser criminal and the abused victim, learned these patterns early in life. Not all, of course, women can be taught to feel worthless, but it is a lot easier if it starts early usually from their mothers. And men learn to use violence and anger to control relationships very early on, usually from their own fathers. Abuse patterrns, like alcoholism, is often inherited. That doesn't mean it's inevitable, or that people can't enter into these patterns over time. They tend to seek each other out. And that is a cycle that can be stopped, in a generation, by teaching children that is is wrong, and counseling them, professionally, at a young age, to redirect these feelings.

Once a man has started to abuse women, it's too late. And many abused women flit from one abusive relationship to another. That's how they see relationships as working, no one has ever taught them differently. We are the products of our society and our families, it's hard to break that cycle without serious work. And it needs to be done BEFORE anything happens, so women with a tendancy to be attracted to abusive men can learn, intellectually and emotionally, how to avoid those situations. And potentially abusive men learn how to act in a real relationship. Violence and love do not travel on the same path, it is only in some people's minds that they do. It is a breakable cycle, but it will take a huge investment by our society to do so. And it is long past time for the wealthiest society on Earth to invest enough in children to make that happen.

[stanwyck]

55. Hate-radio has been pushing

the idea that domestic abuse is vastly over-stated in American society. Neal Boortz maintains that women often lie or fake abuse in order to obtain a legal advantage in divorce and custody matters. Since hateradio relies on heavily male audiences (and angry male audiences) this kind of blame the women tactic works well.
The femi-nazis are exaggerating. Again.
They hate men.
Blah. Blah.
And the men keep tuning in to have their egos massaged. It's not them. They're not pitiful bullies.
It's the women.
Stay tuned, abusers. We need your numbers for the advertising folks.

[noiretextatique]

57. men, in particular, are rewarded for being violent

and people don't consider abuse "their business," even if it is their daughter or son who is getting abused. i don't think a lot of people see slapping a spouse around as a real crime...it's "personal."

[noiretextatique]

97. and i'll add: women are rewarded for being masochists

and doormats.

[hiphopnation]

60. Thanks for this.

A very, very, grave problem in our country. It can't help that women are still, still, objectified by virtually every MSM outlet from television shows, to movies, to magazines. Women going out into the world to earn a decent living are still not taken seriously and the glass ceiling is **still there**. I would venture to say that, from the boardroom, most upwardly mobile, career-minded women are still just "uppity broads".

Could part of this stem from the fact that the Feminist movement has been completely vilified? Is all but vanished? There was a great article about this over at Salon recently; about reclaiming Feminism, both the word and the movement.

But where is the respect, I mean deep-seeded, honest respect for women in the country? In the culture? This isn't a problem that started in 2000 with the bush junta, though it's certainly been promulgated by bush and his conservative backers who believe that the rightful place of a woman is to support her man no matter how abusive and repugnant he might be.

There was a thread not too long ago here started by SoCalDem about women and the point was made that the opposite of religious fundamentalism is Feminism. This can be seen around the world wherever there is religious fundamentalism (or any dogmatic fundamentalism) there exists the repression of women. It struck me as an excellent point.

I digress. Awareness must be raised. City and State governments must be armed with the proper tools (staff, support, homes for battered women). Much must be done in order to stamp this out.

To me, however, it seems that if a substantial portion of the society is unwilling to let go of their contempt for women and, thus, teach their children that women are a powerful, beautiful, spiritual, important, and vibrant part of healthy society and that they deserve every right and privelage that men enjoy with no strings then there will always be men who feel the need to exert their power over women and that will continue to manifest itself in violent ways.

[SmokingJacket]

61. Easy: we live in a violent culture.

We pretend we hate violence, but we LOOOOVE it. Look how many people watch car racing for the crashes. Look at the popularity of all things violent.

Every time a person has the urge to hit another person, there's a moment where he or she can turn back and decide not to do it. But in every case that a person actually does hit someone else, it's because a little voice in his or her head says, "It's okay. You can do it. Don't wimp out, show her how tough you are! Nothing bad will happen to you; lotsa people fight and nothing happens to them. You're a badass!"

People are violent because they give themselves permission to be violent, and they give themselves permission because our culture openly condones it.

And women are victims more often than men because they're usually smaller and weaker. Also because of testosterone, which increases aggressive behavior even in women who get shots of it.

I know many, MANY men who simply would never hit another person, let alone someone smaller and weaker than they are. And that's because they truly believe in their heart of hearts that only ASSHOLES hit other people.

If our culture believed that as a whole, that only assholes hit people , domestic violence would practically disappear.

[Fleshdancer]

63. nothing is more agonizing than seeing your friend not get help

I don't understand domestic violence and I wish I had the answers to all of your questions. I can't comprehend the desire for controlling another human being, for promising to love and to honor them and then do the opposite of that.

My best friend dated a guy who use to hit her. I hated him with every fiber of my being. I know I annoyed the hell out of her during that time because I tried everything to get her away from him. The odd thing was that when she finally broke up with him it wasn't because of the physical abuse, but because he cheated on her twice. I still don't get it.

[rucky]

66. One thing is more agonizing...ok two things

When it's your sister who doesn't want the help...and the 1-year-old daughter lives there, too.

:(

Not to play toppers with you. It's just so darn common, and it's not like these women don't have a support network. We have a very large, very supportive family and we're all suffering over this. I can only chalk it up to Battered Women's Syndrome, because logic and common sense doesn't seem to play a part.

[Fleshdancer]

68. Oh dear Goddess. My heart goes out to you and your family

I really wish I understood. The Battered Women's Syndrome is the only thing I have to hold on to for any form of understanding though. You probably have already asked your sister this already, but what would she say to her daughter if her daughter was being abused by a boyfriend or husband? I say this because my friend told me that having a daughter of her own and imagining her growing up and enduring physical abuse is what helped "shake her" out of her cycle of dating abusive men.

Good luck to her and your family...I can't imagine going through that with a family member and knowing a baby girl was in the middle.

[MountainLaurel]

76. Spent three years of high school

Waiting for my friend's boyfriend to make good on his threats to kill her. Seeing the handprint bruises on her throat (and the reaction of law enforcement: "well, what did you do to piss him off?". Hearing her fears for the child she had at 15. Listening to her cry about him burning the collection of school notes she and her best friend had passed back and forth since third grade. Noting what she wore after he prohibited her from wearing blue jeans.

It finally ended when he kidnapped her and the baby and tried to run over her mother with the car. Because of where it happened, the state police were the responding force instead of the county and town cops she'd called for help in vain time and time again.

[navvet]

82. I did not stand next to my wife to marry her with the thought of hitting

I promised her that I would never hit her, and in 23 plus years, I have never wanted to.

I would sooner slit my throat than hit her.

I love her, why in the name Of God would I ever hit her?

[Lindacooks]

104. Simple. Because the voters don't care.

Here in Minnesota child abuse prevention programs and domestic violence prevention programs have been gutted, thanks to the disgustingly pig-like Repukes and the people who voted for them. More funding would mean more intervention, more education, and more resources for women AND men who need to leave abusive situations.

But most people just don't care.

[eauclaireliberal]

110. "Smile, bitch, or I'll kick yer ass..."

"Then finish making me my damned dinner! Fox news is coming up!"

[Technowitch]

112. Locking

This thread, while discussing an important topic, has become too personal for some of the participants and degenerated into a flamewar.

Please remember the civility rules.

-Technowitch
DU Moderator