If Bush were a good president, would people notice the fascism?

[yurbud]

Poll question: If Bush were a good president, would people notice the fascism?

Maybe those of us here and Gore Vidal would, but would most Americans?

Hillbilly Hitler art:



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[sui generis]

1. oxymoron

if Bush were a good president we wouldn't have fascism -

Fascism is a tool used by political wolves to get the sheep to circle.

[yurbud]

6. effective in a pragmatic sense rather than morally good

Hillbilly Hitler art:



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[sui generis]

7. just the same

fascism is a tool used in place of effectiveness.

[yurbud]

13. you are confusing any positive statement with morally good

You can say Hitler was effective at eliminating his domestic opponents and scapegoating Jews without intending it as a compliment.


Hillbilly Hitler art:



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[sui generis]

16. you are confusing my replies with confusion

I was not saying that at all, not even in the original reply.

I was saying that fascism is a political tool, not a state of presidential grace.

I am very cynical about the use, the encouragement of fascism by a political body. My stance has nothing to do morality or "goodness" or even really particularly effectiveness. Fascism is a political tool, and an outgrowth of authoritarian thinking, both at the leadership level and the general population level.

[yurbud]

17. then if Bush were an effective fascist, would people notice?

the fascist part?

Hillbilly Hitler art:



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[Jack Rabbit]

2. If Bush were a good president, there would be no fascism to notice

Correct?

[yurbud]

4. not morally good then, effective

[Spider Jerusalem]

5. He's been QUITE effective...

just not in the way he probably intended.

[Jack Rabbit]

11. Counterpoint

That amounts to the same thing.

We were attacked by operatives of al Qaida on September 11, 2001. It is right and proper that we go after Osama and his followers. However, the proper way to accomplish that isn't to restrict civil liberties, isn't to conspire to violate every tenant of international law imaginable and isn't to propagate lies in order to invade a sovereign state for unrelated reasons.

If Bush had simply gone into Afghanistan and pulled out Osama and his top lieutenants, then he would have gone a long ways to effectively making America safer. There was no need for the fascist trappings.

[yurbud]

12. In no way am I saying I approve of him

He is the worst president by a country mile with no second even on the horizon.

My question is if he did things more subtly, in a less ham-handed, obvious way, would the majority ever notice democracy being taken from them?

I guess most don't notice that now--they just notice the crappy job.




Hillbilly Hitler art:



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[Jack Rabbit]

15. Ok, then the answer must be yes

We've reduced to premise to something analytical, as defined by Kant in The Critique of Pure Reason. The truth of your premise is contained within the definition of the term effective.

I had Aristotle's Ethics in mind when you said Good.

[yurbud]

18. my apologies--I meant in a purely pragmatic not

idealistic sense.

I saw something similar on a discovery channel show on science in Nazi Germany. A German scientist was talking about all the jobs that opened up and new blood and optimism in the scientific fields (because Hitler had rounded up the old Jewish professors to make room for young Nazis).

If you were one of those guys that got in, you might not ask too many questions about how it happened.

Hillbilly Hitler art:



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[Spider Jerusalem]

3. Don't you mean "if Bush were a good actor"?

Or "actually intelligent"?

You can't mean "good president". That's something incompatible with "fascist".

[dhinojosa]

8. Wow. Great Poll.....

Can you put an I don't know? I may have to use it...

[Clark2008]

9. But nearly half the people DO think he's a "good" president.

So what does that prove?

[yurbud]

14. democracy is tenuous and can be snuffed out

as I posted in an earlier poll, my concern is that they have come so close to doing it this time, and though they are on the brink of collapse, they will come back stronger and smarter next time, like they did this time after the Gingrich collapse.

It might be premature to plan for the next "war" but if we don't at least think about it, the chances of losing it all are that much greater.

And let's face it, the right has sunk themselves, the Democrats baring even frowned at their misdeeds, apart from the black congressional caucus and a handful of senators.

Hillbilly Hitler art:



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[evilkumquat]

10. Rove vs. Plame or Roe vs. Wade...???

My own father, who is the Republican I personally know best, did not even know who Karl Rove is, let alone what the whole Plamegate scandal entails.

I spoke with another Republican in my office; ditto.

What really struck me as funny, in an "extremely disturbing and frightening in its ignorance" kind of way, is that both of them first thought I was talking about the ABORTION debate when I mentioned the name "Rove" (and no, I do not suffer from a speech impediment, unless you count "not being able to keep my big mouth shut").

My father is not an idiot. He is very articulate, educated, caring, compassionate and honest (his family has money, which would explain his Republican leanings). But this same person told me, after I explained who Rove was and what he did, "What does it matter? Rove wasn't elected. Fire him and move on!"

If it were Bush himself, or Cheney, named as guilty of this despicable, treasonous offense (granted, they are probably at least co-conspirators), then perhaps my father and more "everyday" Republicans would stand up and take notice. Unfortunately, the average citizen is politically clueless.

I feel guilty when a name is mentioned in the forums, or on C&L, and I have to look that person up. But after speaking with my father and other, average "adults", I feel like a political-science major... only, you know, I get laid.

Evil Kumquat

[amjfv]

19. Bush is a BAD president, and a lot of us haven't noticed...

[yurbud]

20. sad but true

Hillbilly Hitler art:



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[DireStrike]

21. People attuned to politics would know something was wrong.

Hell, even most right-wingers say something is wrong with the country. They just can't correctly figure out what the problems are.

But most of the people would never notice. Or believe there was anything they could do about it.