I've changed my mind. Christianity should be taught in the schools...

[KansDem]

...as a part of a world mythology class. Yeah, study christian myth right alongside Greek and Roman myth, and any other world myths that have been used to provide a basis for a world view. Let's compare and contrast these myths, and develop an appreciation and respect for all myths.


From www.TheFreeDictionary.com
myth (mth)
n.
1.
a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
b. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.
2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.
3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
4. A fictitious story, person, or thing: "German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth" Leon Wolff.

re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. It was taught my world studies class along with the other major religions

[Lorien]

208. Mine too n/t

[volitionx]

2. Christianity is an important subject...

Just like Nazism, the Holocaust, Watergate, and a slew of other negative events and institutions that shape our world. We need to learn about them so we can't be tricked by them.

[KansDem]

3. Good point!

And welcome to DU! :hi:

[SammyWinstonJack]

11. Excellent!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[KittyWampus]

117. You think lumping Christianity & Nazism & Holocaust is 'Excellent'?

:puke:

[GeekMonkey]

120. evil is as evil does, so, yes, its entirely appropriate

[Warren DeMontague]

162. How many people died in the Inquisition?

Just curious.

[trotsky]

164. I think it's kind of like...

how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop. The world may never know.

[Jo March]

192. How many Inquisition leaders were like * - FAKE Christians?

The Inquisition went totally against the teachings of Christ just like the war in Iraq goes completely against the teachings of Christ.

Using what some have done in the name of Christianity to condemn all of Christianity and Christians is shameful.

Again, ignorance on the left is just as bad as ignorance on the right.

[RetroLounge]

199. This is a total freaking copout

I hear this all the time from fundy friends and others, that when a christian blows something up in the name of Jesus, he's not a "real" christian. When someone does anything negative in the name of JC, (s)he's suddenly not a "true" Christian.

Sorry, not buying your copout.

RL

[Jo March]

230. RL, I hear what you are saying

Christ preached love, acceptance, peace and tolerance. Those who blow things up in the name of Christ are not Christians. They can call themselves that but they aren't.

Being a Christian means following the teachings of Christ which means NOT blowing things up, NOT killing people and NOT twisting His words into whatever you want so you can kill and hate.

It's not a cop-out. It's the truth. Jesus is known as the Prince of Peace. Find me one place where Jesus preaches that we should blow things up or kill people or hate.

There are "false" Christians, RL. Look at *. He is a prime example.

[tx_dem41]

242. Exactly. n/t

[tx_dem41]

241. Do you feel that way about Muslims re: Terrorism? n/t

[More Than A Feeling]

244. I have to agree that this explanation is not acceptable.

Doing bad things doesn't make a Christian not a Christian. It makes them a bad Christian.

Pretending otherwise will just cause problems. I understand the desire to separate oneself from those found objectionable, but that temptation should be resisted.

[Warren DeMontague]

209. So "Christianity" gets a free pass on everything it has done?

Because, by defintion, any evils done by, say, The Catholic Church, don't count as having to do with "Christianity"... because they are against the teachings of Christ?

I'm not condemning "All Christians". (Please find where I have condemned anyone) ...but if some several centuries of behavior The Catholic Church can't even be considered somewhat representative of "Christianity", I don't know what CAN.

[Jo March]

231. I see your point but please find where I said Christianity gets a free

pass.

Again, the teachings of Christ are pretty darn simple: love, tolerance, kindness, love and peace. Pretty simple, right?

Okay, take the teachings of Christ and find where He says it's okay to do anything like what SOME have done both in His name and using His name as a cloak.

Those who think that they can molest children and get away with it because they can say, "I'm a Christian" are quite mistaken. They will sit in judgment when they die. There may not be any punishment down here on earth but they will pay for their crimes.

And, FWIW, sin is sin, regardless of who commits it. No, Christians shouldn't get a free pass to do what they want. Those who commit crimes and try to hide behind their faith (like the priest that you are referring to) will not be able to hide forever.

And several centuries of the actions of the Catholic Church are more representative of the leaders of the Catholic Church as opposed to being representative of the teachings of Christ.

[beam me up scottie]

223. Did god give you permission to judge who is a christian and who is "fake"?

I don't think so.

Chris•tian

Pronunciation: (kris'chun),
—n.
1. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
2. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
3. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.
4. the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.
5. a male given name.

Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Copyright © 1997, by Random House, Inc., on Infoplease

If they believe in your god, then they are one of you.

Stop trying to tell us that if a person isn't nice, they're not a real christian.

It's insulting and disingenuous.

[Jo March]

233. You are not understanding what it means to be a Christian

And NO - I do not have permission to judge. My faith clearly states that I am not to judge. Maybe "fake" is not a good word and I should not have used it.

So, look at the definition of Christianity that you have up there:

1. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
2. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.

You can't just believe in Jesus. You have to 1) accept Him as your saviour and 2) adhere to His teachings and 3) renounce your sin and try not to sin again.

It's not enough to say, "I'm a Christian" and actually be a Christian. You have to accept Him and follow His teachings. You can't say that you are a Christian and refuse to follow any of His teachings. You can't say, "I'm a Christian" and then go out and murder, steal, cheat and lie. You can't say that you are a Christian and not follow a single one of His teachings. It's all a package thing. Does that make sense?

So, what would you call someone who says that they believe in something but yet they do the opposite of what they profess to believe? Hypocrite comes to mind but it was easier to type "fake."

"If they believe in your god, then they are one of you."
No, that is not accurate for the reasons that I stated above. It's not enough to say that you believe. You actually have to believe and follow.

"Stop trying to tell us that if a person isn't nice, they're not a real christian."
If a person is not following the teachings of Christ, then that person is not a Christian no matter what they say. Sorry but it's more than a person not being nice. There's more to it than lip service.

"It's insulting and disingenuous."
What is disingenuous is lumping everyone together in the same bucket so you can condemn the entire religion. You will not even try to see that there are many people out there who try to live their lives by following Christ on a path to peace. To say that the ones who are committing atrocities are the same as Christ's followers is insulting.

* says that he is a Christian. I am a Christian. To lump me in with a warmonger who has lied, cheated and stolen all of his life simply because he says that he is a Christian is insulting.

[beam me up scottie]

235. No, it is not insulting.

Name an evil atheist, I won't try to say he's not an atheist.
Christians do terrible things in the name of their god, but most do not.
Liberal christians like those found on DU bear no resemblance to those that are running the show in Washington.
But that does not mean that the zealots are not christian.
Just a different kind.
I will gladly accept that they twist the religion and pervert it to suit their dark agendas, but I will not accept that they are not christian. They believe they are and I will not label them otherwise.
Acknowledging the hitlers and fred phelps of the world does not denigrate your religion or your faith.
By denouncing what they have done with their faith, you actually prove that yours is superior to theirs in morality and practice.

[SammyWinstonJack]

197. Did I say that? n/t

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jo March]

17. Excuse me? So, since I'm a Christian, I need to be treated?

It's posts like yours that show that Democrats can be just as ignorant about Christianity as repubs are.

It's one thing for the right to tell me that I am not a good Christian because I think that Christianity should NOT be taught in the schools but it's quite another thing when people from my own party tell me that I'm crazy and that I should be treated as though I have a mental illness!

I believe what I believe regardless of how many little websites and studies are out there. The difference between me and you? I don't ridicule you for your beliefs and try to paint you as a crazy person because you don't believe the same things that I do.

If you knew ANYTHING about Christianity, you'd learn that Christ Himself would not approve of many folks who claim to be Christian.

Ignorance on the left is just as bad as ignorance on the right.

[napi21]

21. Of course that kind of talk is wrong.

I remember being called crazy because I was Catholic, and all the protestants thought we were in need of some treatment too!

I didn't pay any attentio to it then, and don't now either. You'd be surprised at the response here in the South, when someone comes to your door and asks you to join their Church. All I have to say is "Thank you so much for the offer, but we are already members in the Catholic Church. YEOWWWW, you'd think I just got out my pitch fork! They spin around and are off my porch so fast, I can feel the breeze!

The right and the left have fringes who are very strong in their beliefs. I believe they are free to hold those beliefs, but not to slam others for theirs!

All should really keep religion inside the Churches and out of public criticism and Gov't.

[Jo March]

196. AMEN! Religion belongs in the church - NOT in gov't or schools!!

Religious teachers belong in the church or in private church-run schools that folks can choose to send their children to.

Teaching religion in public schools or forcing religion via government is wrong and it should horrify any true religious person.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tx_dem41]

29. I'm starting to understand why we lost the last two elections....

...We can't even behave civilly between ourselves. Respect. Its not hard to learn, even later in life.

[GeekMonkey]

31. You speak the truth

but of course, anything other than 'god is great' will be instantly met with people claiming to have strong faith but also to be hurt by what non-believers say

believers are quick to demand respect from non-believers, but usualy arent willing to reciprocate

[tx_dem41]

33. You can say the same thing about a whole lot of non-believers.

The OP and many subsequent posts are prime examples.

I'm a non-believer and all I see is a whole heck of a lot of "preaching" going on in this thread. Its disrespectful no matter who is saying it.

[GeekMonkey]

74. you can say lots of things, doesnt make them true

[Modem Butterfly]

94. How do you know the OP is a non-believer?

[tx_dem41]

100. Decent point.

Congrats for finding me all the way upthread, BTW.

[Jo March]

203. There's a difference between "preaching" and trying to clear up things

I don't like it when folks say stupid things about a religion that they know very little about. With the exception of the Baylor grad, how many posters here have studied Christianity or any religion for that matter?

I always try to clearly point out the true teachings of Christ - to make sure that folks understand that when they paint Christians with the same brush, they are doing the same thing as those on the right.

Saying that religion should be taught in the schools is one of those arguments. Most on the left agree that it shouldn't be taught in the schools because we RESPECT non-believers and also those of us who are Christian believe that it violates the teachings of Christ to teach religion in schools.

Where is the preachiness in that??

[onager]

211. Thanks for being patronizing AND insulting to us non-believers!

You wrote:

With the exception of the Baylor grad, how many posters here have studied Christianity or any religion for that matter?

I don't know any way to AVOID hearing about Xianity here in the United States Of Jebus, short of maybe suicide.

In my own atheistical case, I was raised by Southern Baptists in the buckle on the Buy-bull belt. My mom's uncle ran a Baptist mission in Uptown (Hillbilly) Chicago for nearly 40 years. Three of my close high-school friends are currently Baptist ministers, and several friends have served as Xian missionaries in places as varied as Brazil and Africa. Before I entered junior high, I had virtually memorized the Buy-bull, which started my questioning about it.

So contrary to your own quite ignorant opinion, I'm not blindly spouting off about "a religion (I) know very little about." I absorbed it with my mother's milk, and was immersed in it from birth until I escaped its clutches by joining the U.S. Marines....the Jesuits of American foreign policy, but that's another story.

And BTW, my own "conversion" to atheism was not a Saul-On-The-Road-To-Tarsus fairy tale involving a blinding heavenly light (and possibly a brain aneurysm, but I digress.) I studied the historical roots of Xianity as well as the famous fictional "proofs" that Jesus existed, like the writings of the Jewish-Roman historian Flavius Josephus.

All of that studying convinced me that the story of Jesus was about as likely to be true as the story about Leda and the swan or Europa and the bull...both virgins impregnated by gods, which should sound familiar to any Xian.

You cannot imagine how insulting it is when you imply that we non-believers just aren't familiar enough with your particular superstition.

In our case, you do know what familiarity breeds, don't you?

FYI, I'm writing this at 3:30 AM while sitting in Alexandria, Egypt...a region with myths that predate Xianity by about 300 centuries, and which make just as much sense, if not more.

[Jo March]

228. Sorry but many of the atheists that I have encountered here

know nothing of the teachings of Christ. It is nice that you do know of what you speak. That is a good thing. In interacting with other atheists on this board, I find many who don't know enough about Christianity, Islam or any other religion to make broad statements about any of them.

Of course, I didn't miss the anger and bitterness in your post, either. Nor the reference to the "Buy-bull."

So, if you think that I insulted you...well, then I guess it's the pot calling the kettle black.

Yes, it is insulting to me to have my faith reduced to "Jaybus" and "the buy-bull." In your words you are basically saying that I am an idiot.

I do not wish to offend you or your beliefs or your lack of beliefs. Again, that "buy-bull" tells me that I am to do unto others as I wish to have done unto me. So, I wish to leave this conversation by saying this:

I respect your beliefs and believe that NO ONE should try to force you to believe something that you don't want to believe or try to teach you something that you don't believe in. No one should try to force you to believe in something and no one should insult you for it, either.

[tx_dem41]

245. "You cannot imagine how insulting it is when you imply that we non-

believers just aren't familiar enough with your particular superstition"

Don't you think it works both ways?

[trotsky]

216. Hi. I was a Christian for the first 20 years of my life.

I was confirmed as a Lutheran and studied the bible intensively during my confirmation classes.

During my journey to atheism, I studied Xianity even more in-depth. That was the kicker - the more I learned about it, the harder time I had believing in it. I read the bible cover to cover, different versions, with concordances to help overcome those little translation issues.

So yeah, I've studied Xianity. I also learned a bit about Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism in a comparative religions class in college.

But the "true teachings of Christ" are as much of a mystery today as they were the very first time two Christians had an argument over what exactly they were. What *are* those true teachings? Is faith alone sufficient to be saved, or must it be a combination of faith and works, or will works do it all? Answer that question and you'll reunify the Protestants and Catholics. After you splice back together their different bibles, of course.

Should individuals alone be responsible for the less fortunate, should it only be the role of charities, or should the government be responsible too? What is Christ's teaching on that?

Are blood tranfusions OK? Organ donations? Birth control? Homosexuality? What are Christ's teachings on these issues? And when you find out, can you please share them with your brothers and sisters in faith so that they'll stop trying to take over the country and outlaw these things? I mean, if it's clearly a true teaching of Christ, it should be easily evident to all Christians, right?

You see what I'm getting at?

[tx_dem41]

243. We have no problem Arnheim....

the "preaching" is coming from my fellow non-believers on this thread...sadly.

[Jo March]

191. NO. That is not true in many cases

I have friends who are atheists, pagan and Wiccan. I respect them all and NEVER NEVER EVER do I tell them that they are lacking as a person because they don't believe as I do.

I would NEVER tell my friends that they need to be treated for a mental illness because they don't believe as I do.

That is the difference between me and the OP and many others on this thread - I respect others' beliefs and don't ridicule them or harass them or call them names.

[Jo March]

198. NO - True believers give respect. We object to being called "aberrant"

We object to being called "crazy" because we truly believe.

Of course I'm hurt by being called mentally ill or aberrant because I believe!

I would fight and die for your right to not believe. If that's not showing respect, I don't know what is.

I object to the name calling. That's what I object to because I would never do that to someone who chose not to believe.

[Name removed]

206. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jo March]

227. I did not say that YOU were ignorant

Rather, I said that your post was. There is a difference.

[JNelson6563]

41. Ah don't worry

of allegations that you are ignorant. Seems to me that Christians tend to be far more ignorant of their religion and its history than most non-Christians (especially non-believers).

I shrug it off. There is no bigger waste of time than trying to discuss an issue close to the heart of an emotion-based thinker.

Cheers-
Julie

[Jo March]

202. Most "Christians" are ignorant of their religion

That's why folks like * and Pat Robertson and those of his ilk can control their followers so easily.

And yes, I am an emotion-based thinker. I make no apologies for it. I have had more emotional arguments with my repub friends who think that all atheists are evil.

[KittyWampus]

123. I've Been Studying Esoteric Christianity For 10 Years. And If You Had ANY

real understanding of what Christianity is, you'd know that behind it and all other religions stands Universal Truths which can be tested and verified.

So your understanding of Religion (versus Science) is immature at best.

[trotsky]

139. This is new to me.

What is a religious universal truth that can be tested and verified? I'm honestly curious.

[Modem Butterfly]

141. Dude, they all can. That's what makes them TRUTHS.

Duh.

[beam me up scottie]

145. Exactly. And ID is true too.

It's the science-worshipers who have it all wrong.

[Modem Butterfly]

150. Well they couldn't call it a universal truth if it wasn't true, right?

[trotsky]

147. Excuse me, the proper term to address me with is..

fuckass. Thank you very much.

[Modem Butterfly]

148. ROFL!

:spray:

[beam me up scottie]

159. BWAHAHAHA

:rofl:

[cosmik debris]

172. I'm not challenging universal truth

I'm challenging the "hocus pocus holy ghost us" theology that comes from the willingness to believe things without evidence. Heaven and hell are good examples.

[Jo March]

194. FYI - a college degree does not mean one can't be ignorant

Perhaps I should have said intolerant or hostile, maybe?

"It is at least aberrant behavior, and at worst mental illness."

My behavior is not aberrant: I love my neighbor, I don't judge others, I am a pacifist, I do not force my beliefs on others. How is that aberrant? How is that being mentally ill?

Your post is at least flamebait, and at worst disgusting.

I am not mentally ill because I believe in Christ. I am not mentally ill because I follow His teachings.

Your post did not say that you believe that religion has a lot in common with mental illness because religion refuses to accept new information. That is NOT what you said. You said, "It is at least aberrant behavior, and at worst mental illness."

THAT is why I used the word ignorant because it was an ignorant statement to make.

If you are an atheist and don't believe in any higher power, then fine. Just don't try to insult and ridicule the rest of us who do. It makes you no better than those on the right who claim to have a lock on religion.

[cosmik debris]

201. Not aberrant, no not me

But on the first sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox you participate in fertility rites with rabbits and eggs,and cleansing rites with ritual cannibalism and virgin sacrifice? No that's not aberrant.

[Jo March]

234. I don't participate in that, thanks

But you do bring up a good point. Honestly, I have always heard that hunting for easter eggs was of a pagan orgin, not Christian.

Sorry, Cosmik, but I can see that you are pretty dead set against religion of any type and that's fine. Truly, it is. That's the great thing about the 1st Amendment.

I believe what I believe. I believe it strongly and with every fiber of my being. My faith is a source of comfort and joy to me and my family. It is a guide on my life's path. It teaches me to be kind and loving and accepting to others.

I'll admit that my responses to this thread have not been very Christian. For that, I am truly sorry. Just because I feel insulted does not mean that I should be insulting back. It's wrong when someone insults you but it's wrong to insult back. I should have turned the other cheek and left this thread alone.

Have a nice life, Cosmik. I hope that one day maybe you'll see fit to look at religion without contempt.

[GeekMonkey]

28. ignorance of any kind is bad

mostly because it makes one easily fooled by religion

[Jo March]

195. "fooled by religion"? No, rather, fooled by religious leaders

Religious leaders all through the ages have used the ignorance of others to rule the general population. If you look at the teachings of Buddha, Christ or Mohammad, you would find that they all taught peace, love, acceptance and tolerance.

It's disgusting that people today can't see through folks like * who pretends to be a follower of Christ and twists the Bible to his own evil ends.

No one should be ignorant of religion just so their so-called "religious leaders" try to twist religious texts for their own selfish purposes.

Many Christians today (or those who claim to be anyway) can't even quote the teachings of Christ. Those people are easy for * to lead.

[jonnyblitz]

176. interesting article. nt

[electron_blue]

5. great idea

seriously

[kodi]

6. only if it includes my religion

i worship as God a purple and orange stripped tree frog name Melvin found in the mountainous rain forests of New Guinea.

prove me wrong, go ahead and try it and i will call you intolerant of religion.

[getmeouttahere]

8. Bravo, kodi!

[KansDem]

10. Do say?

And this frog so loved the people of the world that he sent his only polliwog?


You shall have no other frogs before Me

[MountainLaurel]

12. Snork

:spray:

[kodi]

13. Blessing be, though He has croaked, He lives again.

(warts and all)

[KansDem]

19. LOL!!

:D

on edit: I love puns!

[Carni]

24. Where can I sign up to become a *Melvinite* ????

I don't have to wear a Pioneer dress or a funny hat or anything do I?

LOL

Edited because I didn't spell my new God's name correctly in the title! :(

[Be Brave]

20. Let us know, after you die,

if you come face to face with your god Melvin.

[trotsky]

143. You mean like the billions of adherents...

of all the other religions in the world have failed to do as well?

[Be Brave]

186. Yes, that's right. Did I claim that people came back from the dead

to tell me first-hand they saw god?

[trotsky]

218. So why do you put that requirement on others?

That kinda smacks of hypocrisy, doesn't it?

[tx_dem41]

246. OK...I missed something...where did the poster "put that requirement...

on others"?

Help me out, please.

[info being]

71. My god has your god for lunch

[flamin lib]

7. Comparative religion should be taught in all high schools.

The driving philosophy in all is more alike than different. Teach diversity!

HINDU: This is the sum of duty; do naught unto others which if done to thee would cause thee pain.

ZOROASTRIAN: That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto
another whatsoever is not good for itself.

TAOIST: Regard your neighbour's gain as your own gain, and your
neighbour's loss as your own loss.

BUDDHIST: Hurt not others in ways that you would find hurtful.

CONFUCIAN: Do not unto others what you would not have them do unto
you.

JAIN: In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard
all creatures as we regard our own self.

JEWISH: Whatever thou hatest thyself, that do not to another.

CHRISTIAN: All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you,
do ye even so to them.

ISLAMIC: No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother
that which he desires for himself.

SIKH: As thou deemest thyself, so deem others.

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. Yes, but didn't you know only delusional nuts believe this

evil mythology!

[GeekMonkey]

16. Thats obvious

[rumpel]

14. Agree. Along within history, how religions were used to benefit a

few for control.

[glitch]

15. along with every other power structure devised. nt

[Carni]

25. I would be in favor of a course like you mention

I am agnostic but I would have WELCOMED a class like what you propose.

It would have spared me making a complete ass of myself on a number of occasions!

[Jo March]

18. Christ would NOT want Christianity taught in the schools

If you would study the religion, you'd see that Christ did not like hypocrites who shouted how religious they were. He had very specific ways that we should pray (quietly to ourselves in our closet so the prayer would be between us and God only) and how to teach the word of Christ.

Good grief.

Posts like yours are flamebait and insulting.

[KansDem]

23. Hey, come to Kansas...

...and tell us that we should pray (quietly to ourselves in our closet so the prayer would be between us and God only) and how to teach the word of Christ. I'll be happy to listen; I can't say the same for my fellow Kansan.

I'm suggesting a way Christian myth can be taught in our schools; our public schools. Why is that considered "flamebait and insulting?"

[Jo March]

200. Flamebait - look at the response to your posts

Insulting - you just stated that what I believe is a myth.

I AGREE with you. Religion should not be taught in the schools, the public schools. No how, no way religious instruction belongs in the schools.

Equating my beliefs with a myth as a basis for your argument? Yes, that's insulting.

Edited for freeperish punctuation.

[beam me up scottie]

224. Calling christianity a myth IS NOT AN INSULT.

Did you not read the definition ?

Do you not think that your god is a supernatural being ?

And you know, I can call your religion the biggest pile of donkey turds I have ever seen and it still wouldn't be insulting YOU.

I respect you as an individual but I'll be damned if I have to honor your particular brand of superstition over someone else's.

You need to stop feeling insulted by people who view religion objectively, there's an awful lot of us and we are not your enemies.

[tx_dem41]

Consider yourself beamed up. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

250. If you can't keep up, just admit it.

I won't mind and it will save you the trouble of trying to be clever instead of honest.

[GeekMonkey]

27. what some dead guy wants is irrelevant

i agree that the myths should be taught and made plain to be just that: MYTHS

only through education can religion be defeated

[Jo March]

204. "only through education can religion be defeated"

You sound just like a fundamentalist. You realize that, right?

You want to "defeat" my religion? Is that what you are saying?

Substitute the word "atheism" in there and you could be Pat Robertson or any other narrow-minded, self-righteous religious leader today.

And as for the "dead guy" - I am trying to make the point that Christians should NOT want Christianity taught in the schools because it goes against the teachings of Christ.

[tx_dem41]

26. I'm an atheist....but not a proselytizing atheist, as many are on this

site. Just like I don't want to proselytized by Christians and other theists, I respect that Christians et. al. don't want to be proselytized at by me.

Respect...such a simple yet misunderstood concept.

[sonicx]

32. What does this have to do with the topic?

[tx_dem41]

34. The OP is proselytizing. n/t

[GeekMonkey]

35. actually, no, because atheism is a LACK of religion

he isnt pushing his religion, only pointing out the fallacy of religion and its similarity to other mental disorders

[tx_dem41]

37. Of course the OP is pushing his/her "religious" beliefs....

Surely, you're proud enough of your atheism (assuming you are an atheist) to realize its a belief system.

[GeekMonkey]

42. nope, its a LACK of beliefs

and stating the obvious is not prosyletizng

[tx_dem41]

45. You're right.

Its much more like arrogance.

[Be Brave]

56. So the non-existence of a god is obvious?

Prove it. To believers and non-believers alike.

[Modem Butterfly]

58. Do you worship Zeus?

[GeekMonkey]

60. burden of proof is on you, if you assert the existance of a god

[Be Brave]

83. That is a ridiculous statement.

If asking a believer to prove there is a god is a valid request, then so is asking a non-believer to prove there is no god.

[GeekMonkey]

87. ok, prove i dont have an invisible monkey that controls the world

[Be Brave]

93. I cannot prove it.

Can you prove there is no god?

[GeekMonkey]

101. i dont have to, YOU are the one making the assertion

so the burden of proof is on you

[Modem Butterfly]

102. Self-delete

NEVER mind.

[jonnyblitz]

154. they make a point to NOT teach xians rules of debate apparently

they always want the atheist to prove the negative. it's hard to keep a straight face sometimes...

[Be Brave]

189. So if someone is unaware of your official rules of debate, or better yet,

deems them irrelevant, that someone automatically loses the argument and is carried off the stage?

[beam me up scottie]

193. He's referring to the classic debate

between believers and atheists.

If you are interested, there is an endless supply of information on these as well as actual transcripts from some of the more famous ones.

We didn't invent the debate, it was going on way before any of us were born.

[trotsky]

107. Precisely!!!

You are so close!

If you can't prove the monkey DOESN'T exist, does that mean that it does?

Hmm? Think about it!

[Be Brave]

127. I never claimed that not being able to prove that something doesn't

exist was a sufficient condition that it exists. I only posed a question: Can a non-believer prove there is no god? However, if the poster chooses to believe in his holy monkey, then more power to him.

[trotsky]

131. That may be true,

but do you think the non-existence of the monkey is obvious?

[Be Brave]

152. Ask GreekMonkey to define his monkey

and I will think about it. Like I think about whether my god is real or not.

[trotsky]

161. TA-DA!

Define your god.

[Be Brave]

168. I thought you'd fall for that.

Why don't we start a DU Religion group (I don't know if there is one), or a history of religion or a history of god group. I think that would be an appropriate venue, wouldn't you?

[trotsky]

173. There already is one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=214

Kick off a thread. Define your god.

[Be Brave]

174. Aha! Thank you. n/t

[Be Brave]

188. Better yet, there is

this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=275

and there is this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=291

[trotsky]

214. Actually, no, those are Groups, which are closed to other viewpoints.

Groups are intended to be "safe" areas where members of a group can speak more freely with each other.

The Religion & Theology Forum is where you should define your god so we can get started. Ready yet?

[trotsky]

63. The non-existence of unicorns is pretty obvious.

As is the non-existence of Santa Claus, leprechauns, the Tooth Fairy, etc.

Please let us know when you can provide some evidence FOR a god that goes beyond the evidence of those other things.

[Be Brave]

88. That's a pretty weak proof. n/t

[trotsky]

89. Not a proof at all. That's the point.

Sorry you don't understand.

[Be Brave]

96. And I'm sorry you have a narrow mind. n/t

[trotsky]

99. Simply because I ask for proof of something before I believe in it?

I'm afraid I'm not following...

[GeekMonkey]

103. pot.kettle

[beam me up scottie]

106. He doesn't, but you sure do.

Do you always argue about things you know nothing about ?

There are many rancorous debates over the definition of atheism, with quite a few theists insisting that atheism should be defined in a very narrow sense: the denial of the existence of any gods. When theists simply assume that this is what atheism is, there can be a lot of miscommunication and misunderstanding in their discussions and debates with atheists.
***
Unfortunately, not every person entering such discussions does so with intellectual honesty. Thus, another reason often seen for insisting that only the narrow sense of atheism is relevant is that it allows the theist to avoid shouldering the principal burden of proof. You see, if atheism is simply the absence of a belief in any gods, then the burden of proof lies solely with the theist. If the theist cannot demonstrate that their belief is reasonable and justified, then atheism is automatically credible and reasonable.

There is also a tendency among some theists to make the error of focusing only on the specific god in which they believe, failing to recognize the fact that atheists don’t focus on that god. Atheism has to involve all gods, not simply one god — and an atheist can often approach different gods in different ways, depending upon what is necessitated by the nature of the god in question.

Thus, when someone claims that a person is an atheist because they “deny the existence of God,” we can start to see some of the errors and misunderstandings that statement involves. First, the term “God” hasn’t been defined, so what the atheist thinks of it cannot be automatically assumed. The theist cannot simply assert that whatever they have in mind must also be something which the atheist has in mind. Second, it is not true that whatever this god turns out to be, the atheist must automatically deny it. This concept might turn out to be too incoherent to justify either belief or denial.

from Defining Atheism by Austin Cline
http://atheism.about.com/

[GeekMonkey]

112. dont you know there is no room for facts in a religious discussion?

stating facts is being disrespectful to those that dont believe in facts, didnt you know?

stating your beliefs (or lack thereof) is automatically considered an attack to the o-so-persecuted theists, who are apparently hunted down and constantly under attack, at least according to them

[Be Brave]

119. Tell me, what facts have been presented so far?

By both parties of believers and non-believers?

[sonicx]

124. It's up to believers to present facts that God exists

Where is it?

[beam me up scottie]

125. Stop it! Modem B already yelled at me for not studying

the AthIEst bible !

I'll cover that chapter tonight, provided Trotsky gives me back my decoder ring.

[trotsky]

137. Good luck with that!

I lost mine in a holy water accident. I stole yours fair and square.

[beam me up scottie]

142. If I don't get my ring back,

the chicken gets it.

[trotsky]

149. *gulp*

Not my rubber chicken! Dammit BMUS when did you sneak that away?

[beam me up scottie]

163. HA! I stole it when you were kissing up to MB !

Muahahahahahaha

[trotsky]

166. *feels naked without his rubber chicken*

:blush:

[Be Brave]

I usually try to stay away from arguments.

But when I smell bigotry and intolerance I sometimes act foolishly and jump in.

[GeekMonkey]

122. jump in to add your own intolerance and bigotry?

[Be Brave]

133. Sure, why not?

That way the bigotry is balanced.

[beam me up scottie]

126. THe only bigotry and intolerance on this thread

was directed at atheists.
Criticizing religion is not bigotry and calling it a myth is nothing more than accurate.

[Modem Butterfly]

132. You smell bigotry and intolerance?

Are you sure you're not smelling something else?

[Modem Butterfly]

115. You can disbelieve all you want, Trotsky

I shall worship The Invisible Pink Unicorn (PBHHH)!

[Finder]

140. Ok, we could put two oxen on altars and see if god strikes them..

if only yours goes up in flame,(since we know he loves the smell of burning oxen) I will convert...if neither does...then you sit and discuss religion, k?

How much do you really trust your god?

[Modem Butterfly]

46. Atheism is a religion. Darkness is light. Freedom is slavery.

Peace is war. Baldness is a haircolor.

[tx_dem41]

49. Hey now....we can talk about religion all day...

lay off the "baldness" comments. I'm a little touchy about it. :)

[Modem Butterfly]

52. Touchiness is just another kind of insensitivity.

[tx_dem41]

55. Shame on me....try to add a bit of levity and humanity to a debate...

and get attacked for it. I should've learned months ago.

[Modem Butterfly]

57. Levity and humanity are just another form of bullshit

In this case at least.

[tx_dem41]

66. What a wonderful life philosophy. n/t

[Modem Butterfly]

70. Well, if it works for you, have at it

Leave reality to the rest of us.

[tx_dem41]

73. Some of us enjoy the spice in life.

Some of us are grinds.

[Be Brave]

104. It's okay, tx_dem. I don't think everybody mistook your levity for

bullshit. I didn't. I thought what you said was pretty funny. Can I rub your head for good luck?

[beam me up scottie]

121. Awwww, isn't that sweet ? I thought Kodi was pretty damn funny

when he posted:
"i worship as God a purple and orange stripped tree frog name Melvin found in the mountainous rain forests of New Guinea.

prove me wrong, go ahead and try it and i will call you intolerant of religion."

Where's your appreciation for his levity ?

[tx_dem41]

129. I thought it was funny too.

And, hey. If some woman wants to rub my bald head, just stay out of it! Deal? :)

[beam me up scottie]

134. I'm not touching that one.

Uh uh, no way.

[Modem Butterfly]

135. That's what SHE said

:evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

138. STOP it!

:spray:
You're going to get me fired !

[Be Brave]

146. Look back and compare the posts of kodi and that of texas.

Was there a belief system ridiculed by the post of texas?

[Modem Butterfly]

153. A better question might be whether a non-belief system were ridiculed

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

[Be Brave]

158. Show me the posts where I ridiculed a non-belief system. n/t

[Modem Butterfly]

160. Show me a post where I said you did.

[Be Brave]

169. Okay, you didn't. Sorry I misunderstood. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

175. He insulted atheists.

That's intolerant.

And kissing up to believers is not an atheist family value.

[Be Brave]

177. He insulted atheists by telling Modem to

"lay off the baldness comments"? :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

178. Snide and snarky but still obvious:

"I'm an atheist....but not a proselytizing atheist, as many are on this
site."

[Be Brave]

183. Posts #55, 104, and 121

Those were the basis for my reply to you. You are now apparently referring to another post.

[beam me up scottie]

185. I said he insulted atheists.

And he did, in post #26.
The resulting posts were reactions.
Face it, he threw the first punch and it was aimed at atheists.

[tx_dem41]

212. It wasn't aimed at Atheists. It was aimed at arrogance.

It wasn't aimed at Christians, or Jews, or Muslims, or Buddhists...it wasn't aimed at religion or non-religion. It was aimed at people who are arrogant and unfeeling enough to think that they are totally right and everyone else is totally wrong. It was aimed at people that will crush people who feel differently, friend or foe, to make a point that in the end, makes no difference in the world.

[beam me up scottie]

219. Not aimed at atheists? Really ? Then why did you name us ?

And then use your made up definition of us to promote the strawman "proselytizing atheist" ?

If you have a problem with a poster, alert or take on that poster, if you want to use the opportunity to insult and smear me or my fellow atheists, that's your prerogative.

Just as it is mine to call you on it.

Why not call an asshole an asshole ?

I fail to understand why you feel the need to attach the label if you truly believe atheism has nothing to do with it.

[tx_dem41]

237. Puhleeze...it is the weapon of the weak to "alert on a poster"....

let their words stay on this site and stick to them. That's only fair for all involved, don't you agree? Sadly, let it stick.

[beam me up scottie]

248. It's also weak not to answer the question.

But I understand, really.

[tx_dem41]

256. If you don't understand that it wasn't aimed at all Atheists...

then...like I said....let it stick.

You don't actually think that the majority of DU Atheists represent all Atheists, do you? Silly Scottie.

[tx_dem41]

210. I have to laugh and cry that people are so wrapped up in this

little world on the internet that we feel like every post is the last chance to win or lose and whoever we hurt be damned. The OP was telling all Christian DUers (you know...the "good guys") that their deeply personal beliefs were "crap". I'm an Atheist and I feel strongly about that Atheistic ideology. I know how it stings when a few people might call me "immoral" or "amoral" or the occasional "heathen". But the funny thing is...in the "real world"..the "non-internet world"...I get that very little. Here in our own little community, I see the hateful statements just pouring out. What kind of community does that make us? Not much of one is my sad answer.

[trotsky]

221. Wow, where do you live?

I'm in a pretty liberal state (MN) yet I don't feel free to share my atheism with just anyone. I've overheard conversations at work where people moan about terrorists but tack on that "Well, at least they believe in some kind of god." In other words, I'm worse than a terrorist.

If I happen to turn on the TV on Sunday morning I'm confronted with multiple channels of slick preachers telling everyone how secularism, heathenism, and yes, ATHEISM, are destroying this country.

When I spend money or hear the pledge of allegiance, I am reminded that apparently a true American must believe in a god.

And then a former president can say on the record that he doesn't think atheists should be considered patriots, or even CITIZENS.

I dunno, I think I'm hated for my atheism A LOT MORE in the "real world" than I am on DU.

[beam me up scottie]

222. No, the OP most certainly did NOT make a hateful statement.

We do not have to respect religion.

Period.

We should respect the believer, yes, but NOT the belief.

If you are unable to separate the two, that is your problem, not the OP's.

Posting a definition of the word "myth" is NOT hateful.

Calling christianity a myth is NOT hateful.

If liberal christians can understand that, why can't you ?


Oh, and BTW, "True" atheists do not respect one myth over another, as you obviously do.

[tx_dem41]

236. I never called myself a "true" Atheist....I said I was an Atheist.....

Point out where I said differently. If you don't see the hatefulness in calling a person's inner most beliefs a "myth"...then I truly feel sorry for you. Atheism is not about disrespect or disdain however much you crave it to be. Live in your own little crucible full of hate, but, please, don't label that world as Atheism. You do the Atheists no favor by doing so.

[beam me up scottie]

247. You need to do some research before you try to redefine atheism.

I provided a definition in one of my posts, read it, memorize it.

And if you still prefer to be obtuse, I have links to HUNDREDS of other atheist think tanks, organizations, groups and forums that will back up exactly what I've posted.

As will most atheists on DU.

Since you seem to think you are an atheist "expert", why not try debating other atheists without a sympathetic audience, some of whom have their mouse in a holding pattern over the alert button?

If you really believe what you say, I'd think you'd be grateful for the opportunity to teach all of us what atheism really is.

Somehow I doubt you'll put your money where your keystrokes are, because what you learn would burst the little bubble you've been floating around in.

How delusional is it to not see religion as a myth ?

Most christians consider much of their religion to be a belief in the supernatural, yet you claim that means something other than myth ?

Don't believe in dictionaries, do you ?

Atheist, myth, hateful, atheistic ideology, proselytize, atheistic belief system, somehow the definition of each of those words (the ones that actually exist) seems to have eluded you.

SHOW ME where I said anything hateful.

SHOW ME.

And define "hateful".

Because being critical of religion is not hateful no matter how much YOU want to believe it is.

[tx_dem41]

252. Simple...you called a person...a fellow DUer's inner most...

beliefs to be "mythical". If you don't see the hatefulness in that...then I truly don't see how you deign to call yourself a "liberal".

I could care less about Atheist "think tanks". Worship them if you must. Atheism to me is a very personal choice. If, to you, its something akin to checking off your own little personal "progressive" scorecard...then, I hope someday you really can really understand Atheism.

[beam me up scottie]

254. I knew you wouldn't.

It's easier to pretend to be offended than to actually READ THE DEFINITION of words that are used.

You never defined myth, how come ?

Can you ?

I just assumed you knew exactly what it meant and wouldn't mind sharing since you're positive it has nothing to do with religions.

[tx_dem41]

258. Hey...Guess what?... I knew you "wouldn't" either....

thanks for the late night entertainment though.

[tx_dem41]

207. Thanks Be Brave......

I appreciate that.

[cosmik debris]

118. I'm a bald atheist

I'm going to go sit in the corner and pout!

[beam me up scottie]

130. .

:spray:
:rofl:
Welcome to the god fight, Cosmik Debris !
Cool name !

[cosmik debris]

157. New to the venue, not to the fight

The Mystery Man came over
An' he said: "I'm outa-site!"
He said, for a nominal service charge,
I could reach nervonna t'nite
If I was ready, willing 'n able
To pay him his regular fee
He would drop all the rest of his pressing affairs
And devote His Attention to me
But I said . . .
Look here brother,
Who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris?
(Now who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris?)
Look here brother,
Don't you waste your time on me

Frank Zappa

[beam me up scottie]

184. Damn, I wish I'd have thought of it first.

nt

[beam me up scottie]

98. There is no such thing as an atheistic belief system.

Poser.

[Modem Butterfly]

105. There is now. But to read it you have to use your secret decoder ring

Did you forget to pick yours up at the last EAC meeting?

[beam me up scottie]

109. Trotsky stole mine !

:evilgrin:

[Modem Butterfly]

111. Do I have to separate you two?

Honestly, I will turn this EAC around if you two kids don't stop fighting back there!

[beam me up scottie]

136. HE STARTED IT !

He's touching me !

[trotsky]

144. She was looking at me!

Plus she put her finger over the property line!

[Modem Butterfly]

156. ENOUGH! Or I'll feed you both to Hello Cthulhu!

Damn you kids drive me nuts!


Now where'd I put my purse?

[sonicx]

36. the OP wants to treat all religions the same and teach it in schools

sounds like a good idea.

[tx_dem41]

38. You're blind then to what the message of the OP is.

Its the arrogance of his/her belief system over all others. That's what we accuse "Fundies" of doing. Its not what a true Atheist does.

[sonicx]

39. defining what a "true atheist" is = arrogance

Speak for yourself.

[tx_dem41]

40. Proselytize all you want to then.

Just don't be surprised if no one in the real world listens.

[Modem Butterfly]

47. WTF is a true atheist?

:shrug:

[tx_dem41]

64. Some one who feels strong enough in their choice...

that they feel no need to denigrate another person's choice out of a sense of weakness.

[Modem Butterfly]

67. Suggesting someone's religion should be studied as other religions are...

...is denigration.

Got it.

[tx_dem41]

76. Now, now....I do believe you are misconstruing what the OP said.

Try again.

[trotsky]

82. Well, I'll agree that *someone* is misconstruing what the OP said.

We might not agree on the identity of that someone, though.

[tx_dem41]

91. That's what is wonderful about life.

We can disagree on a fundamental thing and believe we are both right and not be bothered by it at all. Too bad not everyone can do that.

[Modem Butterfly]

84. Well, certainly one of us is

Yeah, study christian myth right alongside Greek and Roman myth, and any other world myths that have been used to provide a basis for a world view. Let's compare and contrast these myths, and develop an appreciation and respect for all myths.

Nope, no denigration there. I believe you'd have to have a very different sort of dictionary to find denigration in that sentence.

[beam me up scottie]

78. Oh look, fellow atheists,

we have our own Zell Miller ! :woohoo:

Please, continue to educate us, oh enlightened one.

We are not worthy. :rofl:

[Modem Butterfly]

80. HERETIC! No TRUE atheist would ever say such a thing!

I cast thee OOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!

[jonnyblitz]

165. log cabin atheist...

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

179. Excellent term !

We need to add that to the AthIEst bible!

[Modem Butterfly]

44. No he's not

Suggesting a religion be taught in mythology class is not proseltyzing for anything, except maybe mythology teachers.

[tx_dem41]

48. Of course it is. Its proselytizing against religion.

This one didn't even attempt to make the usual cursory hedge about being only about Fundies.

[Modem Butterfly]

50. Perhaps you're unclear on the meaning of the word proselytize

[tx_dem41]

54. Nope. I'm perfectly fine with how I'm using it.

Thanks for asking though.

[Modem Butterfly]

61. Declarative statements are just another form of questions, aren't they

[jonnyblitz]

171. so you make up your own meanings for words

that is always convenient.

[Modem Butterfly]

43. WTF is a proselytizing atheist?

:shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

69. That must be the new fundie buzzword.

You know, they used it to replace "evangelical atheist".

Didn't you get the memo ?

[Modem Butterfly]

72. And true atheist is the new athIEst?

:evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

81. D'oh ! I spelled it wrong again, didn't I ?

I forgot to study our AthIest bible.
Smite me.

[Modem Butterfly]

86. SMITE SMITE SMITE

:spank: :spank: :spank:

Dammit BMUS try not to smile so big during the purging!

:spank: :spank: :spank:

[trotsky]

85. But where does that leave us "militant atheists"?!?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Modem Butterfly]

90. Militant atheists will be re-educted into true atheism

Just report to your local Four Square Baptist church next Sunday.

:evilgrin:

[tx_dem41]

97. I'll get back to you two with the date and time.

Don't worry. I'll get a comfy cell for each of you. ;)

[jonnyblitz]

51. welll arent you just special...

i don't see many of our atheist's at DU trying to convert people to atheism. I guess, according to you, any mention of our views by us you construe as prostelyzing. the dictionary is your friend. :eyes:

[Modem Butterfly]

53. The very idea is fucking laughable

How do you convert someone to atheism?

[tx_dem41]

62. Step one....denigrate their belief system.

Atheism is my personal choice. I never would presume that others should make the same choice.

[Modem Butterfly]

65. Yeah, because pissing off people is a great way to change minds

Just like shameless troll-monkery.

[tx_dem41]

68. Exactly. And so is making personal attacks.

Kinda lame ones at that.

[Modem Butterfly]

75. If you see a personal attack, alert the mods

Personal attacks aren't allowed on DU.

[tx_dem41]

77. Nope. I like to see the words stick with the poster.

For all to see.

[Modem Butterfly]

92. Uh-huh

;)

[tx_dem41]

95. Really

;) back at ya.

[trotsky]

113. Hey, that means YOU'RE proselytizing!

After all, you speak as a "TRUE" atheist, implying that all other forms of atheism are FALSE. Why do you denigrate my "belief system"?!? :cry:

[beam me up scottie]

151. Denigration makes baby jesus cry.

[trotsky]

155. Oh. My. Non-god.

:spray: :rofl:

[Modem Butterfly]

167. True story about Baby Jesus...

Last Xmas I was at the mall buying a last minute had-to-have item (we don't do Xmas gifts, so it was something for ME!). The clerk said, "Hi Debbie, I can't remember your employee number so I'll just give you the generic discount?"

I looked at her. "I'm not Debbie,"

"Oh, sorry. I thought you were someone else! You know, if you'd played along, I would have given you 30% off,"

And I said, "Well, lies make the baby Jesus cry,"

And the clerk and two ladies behind me said amen.

[beam me up scottie]

181. That is so ...

sad.

[Finder]

116. You EDUCATE them...

lol

[trotsky]

170. D'oh!

I think you just denigrated a belief system there, Finder! ;-)

[Finder]

182. OOPS!!

I keep forgetting education is such an anti-american ideal.lol

Tommy Jefferson and Paine are rolling in their graves, I'm sure.

[tx_dem41]

59. The dictionary is my friend.

Thanks for noticing. Open your mind a wee bit, and it could be yours too.

[Jo March]

205. Yes but respect is not gained through name-calling

I would never insult an atheist, pagan, Wiccan or worshipper of tree frogs by telling them that they are mentally ill for not believing the way that I do.

Respect - it is a nice concept but pretty scarce on this thread.

[tx_dem41]

213. But so many don't even realize that calling someone's ...

deeply held thoughts a "mythology" is hurtful.

Have at it though. Spread ill-will all you want to (and I'm not talking to you Arnheim). And, then, ask people to follow you (as we do every two years). Don't be surprised at that point when they don't give you the time of day.

[Finder]

217. But that is the truth, no?

that most religions are myths, I mean. Anyone that thinks otherwise, I seriously doubt would be on DU.

I may be mistaken but I have yet to see a fundy group at DU.

[tx_dem41]

238. "Most" religions are personal and should stay that way....

I don't "cheer" for the "fundies" because they presume to know how I should believe. I also don't "cheer" for anyone of any religion or non-relgion who feels the same.

[beam me up scottie]

249. Answer the question.

You seem to love backtracking and making inane comments but you refuse to actually answer the posters' questions.
Why is that ?

Oops, there's another question.

[tx_dem41]

257. Dear Scottie......you're becoming tiring...but read my post again...

if you must...."most religions are personal". Don't you get it, old boy?

[beam me up scottie]

225. What is your definition of mythology ?

Since it appears to be so goddam offensive to you, I assume you have an exact definition that excludes religion.

[Jo March]

229. I'll admit it - I have not acted very Christian in some of my responses

To me, it is insulting to call my beliefs a myth and to say that because I believe, that I must be mentally ill. Sorry, but it is.

I have not handled some of these posts very well and for that, I am sorry.

I'll just stay out of threads like this from now on.

The OP was flamebait. Look at all of the hateful responses from both sides.

I should just stay out of these types of threads. I really should.

I respect everyone's religious beliefs even if I don't agree with them. I'll just leave it at that.

[beam me up scottie]

232. Arnheim,

check your inbox.

[tx_dem41]

239. I respect your post....and please note that I excluded you from my...

statement. Sorry if you got some "collateral damage". It was not meant intentionally.

[Finder]

30. My middle school aged children...

have studied christianity in a comparative sense in their social studies courses at a public school. My son actually did a project outlining parallels between religions and extensive mythology study. Ironically, one of my other son's teachers thought I was a fundy because my son did a paper on David and Goliath from the Bible.lol

Although I am an atheist, it was interesting to see how people are treated when someone thinks they are fundy. It was enlightening to say the least.

It seems most think atheists don't own, read or study the bible.

:shrug:

[Modem Butterfly]

79. I haven't found that to be the case at all

Most atheists that I've met in the US and Europe, where Xianity is the dominant religion, are actually quite well-versed in the Bible.

I think you'll find that most folks, regardless of religion or abscence thereof, back away from fundies.

[GeekMonkey]

108. reading the bible is what convinced me to be an athiest

it contradicts itself in so many ways

it is a poorly written fantasy novel with more holes in the plotline than the lamest hollywood movie

[Modem Butterfly]

110. Like all holy books, it was written by people who sought to understand...

...the world around them. It's outdated is all, but there's some nice poetry in the middle and some nice ideas toward the back.

[GeekMonkey]

114. true, i never said jesus was a bad guy

I still follow some of his advice

Just not the parts where I'm supposed to worship some fantasy character from a fairy tale

[Finder]

128. I agree with you

most atheists have studied the bible and have come to atheism through study.

Ironically, most believers have not read the bible nor studied religion. They get doctrine from the pulpit or altar.

[hallc]

187. Agreed...

I read the bible many times...even took a class in New Testament studies in my undergrad...but one day I woke up and realized that i was an atheist. I got tired of trying to make myself believe something that made absolutely no sense to me. It was like a huge weight lifted off of my shoulders when i finally decided to become religion free...

[KansDem]

180. Kansas is embroiled in battle to see if Creationism, via Intelligent Design

...becomes part of the science curriculum

From Slate (May 11, 2005):

This week, the Kansas State Board of Education will wrap up hearings on "intelligent design," a theistic alternative to the theory of evolution. Scientists have refused to testify, dismissing ID as tarted-up creationism. Newspapers are comparing the hearings to the 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial. Liberals, editorialists, and biologists wonder aloud how people can refuse to see evolution when it's staring them in the face. Maybe they should ask themselves. It's the creationists in Kansas who are evolving. And it's the evolutionists who can't see it.

To understand the fight in Kansas, you have to study what evolutionists accuse creationists of neglecting: the historical record. In the Scopes trial, creationists defended a ban on the teaching of evolution. That was the early, authoritarian stage of creationism—the equivalent of Australopithecus, the earliest hominid. Gradually, evolution gained the upper hand. In 1987, the Supreme Court ruled that states couldn't even require equal treatment of evolution and creationism. By 1999, creationists were asking the Kansas board not to rule out their beliefs entirely. This was creationism's more advanced Homo erectus phase: pluralism.

Six years later, evolutionists in Kansas are under attack again. They think the old creationism is back. They're mistaken. Homo erectus—the defense, on pluralist grounds, of the literal account of Genesis—is beginning to die out. The new challenger, ID, differs fundamentally from fundamentalism. Like its creationist forebears, ID is theistic. But unlike them, it abandons Biblical literalism, embraces open-minded inquiry, and accepts falsification, not authority, as the ultimate test. These concessions, sincere or not, define a new species of creationism—Homo sapiens—that fatally undermines its ancestors. Creationists aren't threatening us. They're becoming us.

(more)
http://slate.msn.com/id/2118320/


Now, what chance does a Kansas high-school graduate, particularly if they want to go on in science, have of getting into a really top-notch university if their science education is laced with references to creationism and intelligent design, a phenomena confined mainly to Kansas and not shared by the academic world in general? What chance does this graduate have at MIT or Stanford? Their application will be laughed right out of the admissions office. At best the student will be able to attend only Kansas universities or Bob Jones University.

Leave science to the scientists! By offering to study Christian mythology as part of a world mythology class, a compromise could be reached between fundies and scientists without jeopardizing a Kansas high-school student’s chances of getting into a first-rate school upon graduation. I see nothing wrong with this proposal.

[crispini]

190. I understand your point, and I agree.

An intelligent class on comparative religions would be great! When I was in school we read parts of the Bible -- as literature, in English class. It was very instructive.

[Astarho]

215. The arrogance and ignorance

in this thread astounds me. And how many times can we argue the same damn points? And why is a little respect for others so hard for some?

To all that say religious belief is an abberation, show me one other culture in history that believed in materialistic atheism (believing in nothing "supernatural" at all) like we do today. Myths and metaphor are very important to a culture, whether it comes from the Bible or Harry Potter (anyone who's read the books can see the mythological/archetypal themes that run through them).

Personally, I believe that a comparative religion class would not be a bad thing. Lay it all out for them and let them draw their own conclusions, or at the very least ask more questions. If nothing else, it would give them a better clue of what other people in the world believe.

However, I'd be willing to settle for a decent history class, that shows how religion interacts with society throughout history. Especially this cycle: someone comes up with a new philosophy or idea that would change society, it spreads, the Powers that be try to stamp it out, until one of them comes up with the intelligent idea of co-opting it to use for their own enrichment, it becomes corrupt and the cycle starts over again.

end rant

[KittyWampus]

220. What A Great Statement. Thank You.

[Name removed]

226. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tx_dem41]

240. Thanks, Astarho.....

I couldn't have said it better myself. Believe me...I tried.

[beam me up scottie]

251. No, you didn't.

You insulted atheists and descended from there.
You are obviously incapable of debating using logic and reason so you resort to insults, strawmen and one liners.
Let me know when you get your emotions under control, you might just learn something.

[tx_dem41]

253. And you are obviously "incapable" of not intruding...

on a civil conversation.

Let me know when you are capable of being civil.

[beam me up scottie]

255. Define "civil".

Is English your first language ?

[Technowitch]

259. Locking

This thread has degenerated into a flamewar. People's religious faith -- or lack thereof -- should be respected, not ridiculed.

-Technowitch
DU Moderator