Islamic Fanaticism vs. Christian Fanaticism

[Fountain79]

Which one is actually more dangerous to our country? Many here seem to fear hard line christianity as an internal political foe. Yet extreme islam could be seen as external militaristic foe. Any thoughts?

[Walt Starr]

1. Christian Fanaticism, far and above Islamic Fanaticism

Christian Fanatics are much more dangerous than Islamic Fanatics in this nation.

[grannylib]

5. As a Christian, I totally agree. The radical "Christian" clerics in this

country are no more representative of true Christianity than are the radical Muslim clerics representative of true Islam.
The big difference is that few of the radical Christian clerics outwardly advocate violence. But they can more drastically change our way of life by political terrorism: holding candidates/elected/appointed officials hostage to their ideology by threatening to whithold their votes.
If the great silent majority would just get off its collective ass and fucking VOTE, we could silence these ninnies once and for all.

[Walt Starr]

9. If Roberts is not anti-choice like they all believe

you'll see Christian suicide bombers in this nation within five years.

[Canuckistanian]

43. You mean Christian HOMICIDE bombers

Watch your language.

[Fountain79]

7. terrorist acts?

While people like Eric Rudolph could be sided with extreme christianity, extreme islam at this point seems to have a larger market share of such activity.

[Walt Starr]

12. Nope, have to lump every act of terrorism on both sides

Christian Fundamentalist Terrorism far outweighs and outnumbers Islamic Terrorism in the history of the United States.

You MUST include every act of terrorism conducted by such Christian Fundamentalist Fanatic organizations as the KKK within the overall consideration.

[Fountain79]

13. ???

So you wish to include a currently rather defunct organization as the KKK into the equation as to which side poses the greater threat to us?

[Kraklen]

19. Yes.

While the KKK is more or less defunct, the sentiment is very much alive.

[Fountain79]

22. ok...

So you fear a "more or less" defunct organization and its sentiment more than you fear an organization that is very much alive, whose sentiment is more wide spread?

[Kraklen]

23. Ah, but Christian bigotry is very much alive.

In fact, it was the primary motivation for the recent slaughter of hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq.

Which is more widespread? Well, let's see. Christian terrorists have slaughtered a lot more people recently than Muslim terrorists.

I'll have to go with the Christian extremists, Alex.

[Fountain79]

24. You forgot to phrase it in the form of a question...

So U.S. soldiers....are terrorist?

[Kraklen]

25. pawns.

George W. Bush has murdered far more innocent people than Osama bin Laden could dream of.

[Walt Starr]

28. If you think the KKK is defunct

You're being naive.

Look at the Southern Poverty Law Center for more information.

Plus it indicates the measures Christian Fundamentalist Fantics will take to achieve their aims, regardless of what they name ore rename thier organizations.

[quinnox]

2. well, one has people willing to be suicide bombers

and blow up people in the name of their religion and the other has the savvy to control all the highest levels of power of the most powerful nation on earth. I guess it is a matter of "pick your poison"

[grannylib]

11. Yeah, so far radical "Christians" have been largely unwilling to blow them

selves up, but they'll sure blow up other people, no problem. Federal employees, little kids, doctors, clinic workers...
I see no objective difference between the Taliban and Jerry Fallwell/Pat Robertson/Dr. Dobson et al

[ultraist]

32. I agree

The radical Christian terrorists (Christian Identity, KKK, Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints, Westboro Church, etc) may not engage in suicide bombings, but they DO commit and INCITE acts of violence.

Lists of Hate Groups:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp?T=22&m=3
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=522

Holy War
The religious crusade against gays has been building for 30 years. Now the movement is reaching truly biblical proportions
By Bob Moser


On June 26, 2003, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned the convictions of two Texas men arrested for having sex. Writing for the majority in Lawrence v. Texas, Justice Anthony Kennedy said that the two men were "entitled to respect for their private lives." The state, he declared, "cannot demean their existence or control their destiny by making their private sexual conduct a crime."
The decision was unusually popular. A national survey found that 75% of Republicans and 88% of Democrats wanted to see sodomy laws struck down. But not everyone cheered.

"Six lawyers robed in black have magically discovered a right of privacy that includes sexual perversion," said Jan LaRue, chief counsel for Concerned Women for America. "This opens the door to bigamy, adult incest, polygamy and prostitution," said Ken Connor, president of the Family Research Council.

For anti-gay crusaders, who have been fighting gay rights for three decades, Lawrence was the most unsettling court decision since Roe v. Wade. Fundamentalist groups had filed 15 briefs supporting Texas' sodomy laws, only to see their arguments — that gay sex was a threat to public health and "traditional family values," and that gay people do not deserve equal rights — shot down.

CON'T

[MattSWin]

37. Again that's a handful of people...

Why? Because in this country Christian fundamentalists are free to participate in politics. In say Egypt Islamic political activism is illegal so they use violence to get their point across.

The Christian Coalition isn't any more responsible for abortion clinic bombings than Sierra Club are for enviroterrorism.

[GeekMonkey]

58. its much more than a handful

[ultraist]

70. Yes, it is much more than a handful

The Christian Coalition has many, many active hate groups.

Furthermore, there is just a "handful" of Islamic extremists compared to the total a number of Muslims.

[Finder]

90. Bull

They are recruiting through so-called "christian ministries" in the prisons to form their little guerrila army. They are forming colleges(unaccredited)to educate the sheep to lead...ala Patrick Henry University, Liberty UniversitY etc...

grrr

[anarch]

3. any kind of fanaticism is pretty bad news

but, since there seem to be more Christian fanatics than Islamic fanatics on this continent, I'm gonna have to go with the Christian ones as the bigger threat to the country...at least for now.

[ck4829]

4. I am starting to believe that they are the same thing

People like Charles Taylor and evidence of Christians in Islamic Terrorist groups make me believe that these types of Fanaticism are actually one and the same.

[MattSWin]

6. Islamic fanatics...

As much as I dislike the Christian Coalition, they aren't slamming planes into buildings or trying to get biological weapons to unleash on us.

The CC isn't trying to mass murder innocent civilians and operate within the rule of law.

[ck4829]

10. Here's something that will hopefully scare anyone who reads this

Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said the Christian Coalition through its publications promoted the sale of Legislating Immorality a book that calls for the death penalty for homosexuals. Lynn said "Here is Ralph Reed selling hate literature...at the same time he says that violence is never justified...I do not remember Martin Luther King peddling hate literature."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_0027.htm

[MountainLaurel]

21. Except for their followers

Bombing women's clinics, gay bars, and international celebrations; shooting doctors while they stand in their kitchen; setting fire to churches that believe gays should have the right to marry; sending anthax hoaxes; etc.

[MattSWin]

34. that's a handful of people...

Islamic fanatics have thousands of followers willing to murder to get their point across.

[GeekMonkey]

41. It is in equal proportion to the followers of each religion

It's only a handful of Islamists that are willing to murder as well.

Both religions are bogus and cause more problems then they are worth.

Ending religion would go a long way towards creating peace.

[MattSWin]

46. Thousands of people...

Is a handful?

Also compare amount of people killed by both.

[Fountain79]

47. Exactly....

It worked so well in Russia.....

[GeekMonkey]

51. they did it the wrong way in russia

they tried to do it by force

we should end religion with education and science

[Kraklen]

26. They're slamming bombs into buildings.

The Islamic variety at least have the decency to take themselves out.

[MattSWin]

48. So everyone in the military..

Is a Christian fanatic?

[Kraklen]

79. They're following christian fanaticism.

I suppose bin Laden could hire non muslim mercenaries to commit terrorism, that wouldn't really make a difference though.

[grannylib]

27. Yes, law that will turn the clock back decades on civil and women's rights

in this country. They are holding people political hostage and forcing the enacting of regressive laws, according to their narrow, hateful and discriminatory religious beliefs. The damage they can do is far more lasting and destructive, in the long run, than the damage (horrible and considerable though it may be) done by suicide bombers or "bad pilots."
And if you consider that some of these acts may have been allowed, if not sanctioned, by our government, in order to provide the PNAC with its desired "another Pearl Harbor" so that we could justify some wars, then yeah...the Christian fundies scare me a lot more. They were responsible for backing and supporting these whores and thieves in our current administration. And systemically, Christian fundamentalism is probably responsible for at least some degree of terrorism: that kind of fundie-nonsense that talks and talks and talks about itself but does nothing to "do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with" their God. It's the very arrogance and actions of people like the Christian fundies that is giving rise to terrorism elsewhere. The real God of the fundies is the dollar, the free-market system, capitalism, and thus you have prosperity theology flooding the meager marketplace of ideas.
Pretty sad.

[MattSWin]

33. They still aren't terrorists....

I don't think advocating banning gay marriage and abortion is as dangerous as bombing a subway. The former is a protected right.

[GeekMonkey]

42. Bombing gay clubs and abortion clinics is terrorism

Why do you insist on apologizing for the christian terrorists?

[MattSWin]

45. I'm not....

I'm simply saying they don't pose as much of a danger to our national security. I'm not saying they aren't dangerous by any means.

[GeekMonkey]

50. much more dangerous

islamists have had ONE attack on our soil

christians attack our way of life EVERY FUCKING DAY by perpetuating the myths that allow our rights to be eroded.

in the long run, christians are MUCH MUCH MUCH more dangerous than islamists

of course, religion is evil in any form because it removes logic and evidence from the debate and replaces it with speculation and faith

[Fountain79]

53. what?

Are you forgetting the first World Trade Center bombing? The attempted millennium bombing?

[MattSWin]

55. How do Christians attack your way of life...

In a way that is more deadly than bombing subways?

[GeekMonkey]

60. by destroying the ideals of our country with thei myths

by fomenting the hate that is so apparent from christians everywhere, even on this board sometimes

[Fountain79]

63. ok....

So the founding fathers were atheist?

[GeekMonkey]

68. some were, most were NOT christians

[MattSWin]

66. Geek..

The GOP says the same thing about liberals.

You've gone from saying Christian fanatics are dangerous to blaming Christians and their "myths" for destroying America.

[GeekMonkey]

69. yes, perpetuating myths is wrong, no matter what side of the aisle you are

on

[MattSWin]

102. so all Christians are fanatics?

If not what myths are you referring to?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[ultraist]

100. LMAO!

WHERE have I given a pass to Islamic radical extremists? I haven't.

Because I believe that the CC poses more of a threat to us is not saying that the Islamic radical extremists pose no threat.

You're argument is illogical.

[MountainLaurel]

85. Define national security

They're a threat to the security of every woman who needs a Pap smear or an IUD, since most clinics they target provide a range of OB/GYN services. Imagine Googling the name of the place where you go to the doctor and finding it on a site with a bullseye on it and instructions about how to create a bomb linked from that Web page.

[ultraist]

35. The Christian Coalition is inciting much violence against gays

as well as abortion supporters while the white christian identity type hate groups are committing acts of violence and inciting violent acts against people of color.

In the US, we are adversely effected much more by the homegrown American terrorist/hate groups.

[MattSWin]

38. How are they inciting violence against gays?

They're telling people to beat up gay people?

[ultraist]

81. How are they inciting violence against gays?

Are you for real? Are you really unaware of the fact that promoting anti-gay attitudes and demonizing gays incites violence against them?

[Finder]

74. Bullshit they aren't...here is some proof....

Cyanide, arsenal stirs domestic terror fear
Friday, January 30, 2004


...
A raid in April found nearly two pounds of a cyanide compound and other chemicals that could create enough poisonous gas to kill everyone inside a space as large as a big-chain bookstore or a small-town civic center.

Authorities also discovered nearly half a million rounds of ammunition, more than 60 pipe bombs, machine guns, silencers and remote-controlled bombs disguised as briefcases, plus pamphlets on how to make chemical weapons, and anti-Semitic, anti-black and anti-government books.

The findings have led to one of the most extensive domestic-terrorism investigations since the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing.

Federal investigators believe conspirators may remain free, and one question lingers: What did the couple intend to do with the weapons?

...


http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Southwest/01/30/cyanide.probe.ap/

[ultraist]

76. The CC isn't trying to mass murder innocent civilians?

And operate within the law? Well, Bush certainly is with the Iraq war!

[Forever Free]

84. Do you really HONESTLY believe that George Bush

is intentionally "mass murdering innocent civilians" in Iraq? That his only goal is to BUTCHER as many women and children as he can?

I oppose the war as much as the next person, but the rhetoric is getting out of control.

[MountainLaurel]

86. His apathy on the issue

Is just as bad as actively trying to destroy them.

[ultraist]

95. I didn't say it was Bush's ONLY goal, did I?

And yes, he is intentionally mass murdering Iraqi civilians. Dropping bombs on a CITY is intentional mass murder of citizens.

[Forever Free]

107. "Dropping bombs on a CITY is intentional mass murder"

Using that logic, every American President is bloodguilty. Hell, even genocide. As well as the millions of men and women who serve in our armed forces.

Yup, we're all monsters. Every single one of us.

[ultraist]

111. War is legalized mass murder.

And Bush has waged an illegal and immoral war, an impeachable offense.

[Finder]

97. Not Bush personally, the neo-cons for certain are...

he is merely their pawn.

[Walt Starr]

80. The CC wants to mass murder women

who will be forced into back alley abortions.

[Beaver Tail]

8. Christian Fanaticism is far worse to the USA

If you take a look at want happens when fanatics gain control the damage is far worse than what the suicide bombers of a far off land can do. Just look at countries that have fanatical governments. The oppression and human rights violations against their own people causes more death than flying a plane into a building.

[mark11727]

14. Two words...

Spanish. Inquisition.

-- on edit ---

And a couple more...

Witch Trials.

The Crusades.

[Fountain79]

16. In the words of Eddie Murphy....

What have you done for me lately?

[Beaver Tail]

18. mark11727

Your example is only one of many great examples of Christian fanaticism but we know that the Inquisition was also used as an excuse to grab property and land of inocent people. This is another danger of fanatics as they use religious reason for personal greed and justify it as "Gods will" (and I am a Christian).

[rumpel]

15. They are the same. remember clinic bombings, murder, Oklahoma, Wako

Church and Mosque burnings...

[I_Make_Mistakes]

17. As a Christian I say Christian fundamentalists in the US

Look at Iraq people. What is the definition of terrorism? We shock and awed 100,000 + people. That is over 30 times the number of people in the world trade centers.

If I lived in a fundamentalist Islamic country my answer might be different, but I don't.

[Cleita]

20. Considering that several Christian fanatics have more than once

vocalized the sentiment that all liberals should be killed or at least dead, I really can't see the difference.

[ComerPerro]

29. Both. Fanatical religious extremists

Of all brands, are very dangerous to any society.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[ComerPerro]

39. It is when extremists kill Americans in terror attacks

each branch has its own approach. The Islamic extremists seem to be content with bombing and random killing (which they have done once here) while the Christian extremists seem to be more set on taking over the legislataive process and forming their own sort of Taliban here.

Both are seeking to impose their agenda on us and change our way of life.

[Terran1212]

30. Most muslims fighting US are not doing so for Islam

They are just nationalists who are tired of being butchered for Western profits.

Christian extremists push the far more dangerous Pentagon agenda.

[MattSWin]

40. Yet if they're white Christian nationalists...

They're evil Nazis?

Why does everyone seem to think Muslims can't be just as hateful and nutty as some Christians?

[kweerwolf]

36. The only difference I can see ...

... between Christian and Islamic fanaticism is that in the U.S., Christians enjoy a better standard of living and thus have more to lose than their Moslem counterparts. That's why you don't hear about Christian suicide bombers ... at least not yet.

But as a gay man, I know very well how insidious the impact of Christian fanaticism is in this country. How many gay-bashers will justify their actions because somewhere along the line they've been told "God hates fags" and that homosexuality is an "abomination"? Christian fanatics lack the balls to attack anyone directly. Instead they stir up hate and when someone lashes out at a gay person ... or a Jew, or a Moslem, or a family planning clinic, etc., etc. ... they retreat and say, "Oh we never encouraged THAT! We believe in loving the sinner even if we hate the sin."

[MattSWin]

44. still not the same...

Even saying "Gay people are evil, scum and God says they all must die" isn't as dangerous as people mass-murdering Americans.

If it was why in the heck is it protected by the Constitution?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[ultraist]

92. NO ONE has on this thread has given Islamic radicals a pass!

BS! The OP asked which was MORE of a threat to the us? Radical extremist Islamics or radical extremist Christians?

Bush, and his CC are spreading hate. We are now MORE AT RISK for a terrorist attack, thanks to them, as are women, gays, and people of color, here in our country, who are being targetted by hate groups.

Spreading hate creates VIOLENCE.

[Forever Free]

96. So the people that ACTUALLY commit terrorist acts AGAINST us

aren't more of a threat than an admittedly incompetent and corrupt administration?

Like I said before, the rhetoric is getting out of control.

[Name removed]

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[Forever Free]

49. Islamic Fanaticism without a doubt.

Nothing justifies or excuses what they have done.

The old "Freedom fighter" or "oppressed nationalist" excuse is just a knee-jerk cop out. We have enemies in the world, and liberals should be able to see that.

[Name removed]

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[Forever Free]

57. Yup, so I'm your enemy? As well as the vast majority of this country?

Give me a fuckin break. :eyes:

[Name removed]

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[Forever Free]

64. What myths? Tenets of the Christian faith?

So if you evangelize, you're a terrorist?

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

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[Forever Free]

72. Its NOT our fault that radicals PERVERT the faith

Using your logic, Muslim clerics are JUST as complicit in terrorism when an extremist few distort the faith and engage in terrorism.

[JLW]

77. Exactly

Thanks for taking point....

CIA world fact book estimates that Christians make up 78% of the American Population....Considering the numbers I think the few that keep being brought up are not in anyway representative of the majority....Just as the few who hate religion here are not representative of the the DU.....

[Name removed]

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[Kraklen]

82. There's a billion muslims in the world.

19 of them flew planes into buildings.

There's millions of Christians in this country. Millions of them voted to take away my rights.

Clearly and without a doubt Christian fanaticism is a greater risk to my life and liberty.

[JLW]

91. Christian Fundamentalist

Are typically anti-government. Right wing christian votes may have led to your rights being taken away...Someone needs to define what a Christian Fundamentalist is...Because there is a difference.

[Kraklen]

93. Christian fundamentalists are the government.

They're lying through their teeth when they claim otherwise.

[Forever Free]

98. And that's why we need to take it back. n/t

[JLW]

101. I don't agree

This corporate administration worships money. Their bible is a stock portfolio. They are not Christian fundamentalists...they're opportunists..

[Kraklen]

Muslims don't get the luxury...

of people distinguishing between the fundamentalists and the terrorists, I'm not about to treat Christians differently.

[Forever Free]

108. What are you talking about?

I'm pretty sure the VAST majority in this country distinguish between real Muslims (who are model American citizens) to the actual terrorists.

Granted, there are EXCEPTIONS.

[MattSWin]

61. Really? Where?

There are Christian nuts definitely but which Christians threaten our national security.

The closest thing is Aryan Nations.

[GeekMonkey]

71. george bush, dick cheney, karl rove

do i have to list tem all? it would take years to type that list

[Forever Free]

75. Yup, so since Bin Laden and Zarqawi are nominally "Muslim"

MY GOD, that must make all Muslims inherently evil. :eyes:

[GeekMonkey]

104. only the ones that perpetuate the myths of islam

its all the same

christianity
islam
hindus

all the same

all based on nonsense and fiction

[MattSWin]

109. Geek...

Are you an atheist?

[Finder]

83. Self-identified christians...

just as the islamic terrorists are self-identified muslims. Religious extremism of any stripe is a danger but in the US, it is those who identify as christians that are the most dangerous.IMO

This isn't a christian bashing thread, it is an extremism bashing one.

[Forever Free]

87. I "identify myself as a Christian." Didn't know I was such a huge threat.

Christains are NOT the problem. Fristians ARE. There is a clear cut difference. They are NOT one in the same. They are not interchangeable.

[Finder]

99. Most don't know the difference...

and you know that.

[Behind the Aegis]

88. Fanaticism

I don't think it matters what group it is; fanatics are always dangerous, just in different ways. There are the fanatics that kill, the ones who incite violence, the ones who strip others of civil liberties, and the ones who subvert.

[moez]

105. I'd agree

But I think that you should include some of the fanatical atheists that are posting on this thread in that group as well....

[KarenInMA]

89. what's the difference?

[BiggJawn]

103. Christian Fanatics are more dangerous to this country.

Why? Because there's so many "other" Christians willing to go to bat for them because "Hey! *I'M* a Christian! Whatchu talkin' about, Willis, these "Chrisitan Terra-ists???"

"I'm a Christian, and *I'M* no terra-ist!" is notr an effective explanation.

And while we fight over who's a Christian and who's NOT, all the groups catalogued by the Southern Poverty Law Centre just keep right on clicking along. Takes time to grow Anthrax, y'know....

Or is the SPLCenter pursuing some kind of "Christian-Bashing Agenda", too? I doubt it.

In the last week, I have read NUMEROUS denials that Eric Rudolph is a Christian. It's the same way they deny that Hitler was their "Brother in Christ", too. Seems to be some kind of disconnect that the Christian religion could produce a monster on the order of Bin-Forgotten, or Zarqawi, or Hussein...

Forget for a moment that I'm an Atheist. Go to your OWN parable about a perfect message in an imperfect vessel. Open your eyes and be BRAVE enough to admit that the hands that set a bomb under a school could also be the hands that hold a Bible on Sunday morning.

[Technowitch]

112. Locking

This thread has turned into a flaming trainwreck.

-Technowitch
DU Moderator