New Democrats unite!

[Forever Free]

You know who you are....come and show your love for progressivism that WORKS!

[dhinojosa]

1. How about all democrats unite?

We aren't going to win anything by splintering.

[Forever Free]

3. Totally with you on that.

The thread was just to spread some love with fellow "New" Democrats. But in the end, we're all Democrats.

[justinsb]

2. I'm not even sure what a 'new democrat' is

Could you cite me a few examples of who you think is a new democrat?

[Forever Free]

4. John Kerry.

Nuff said.

[justinsb]

6. Oh...then that's not me

[DistressedAmerican]

9. What Exactly Is New About John Kerry. Looks Like The Same

old, same old to me.

[DistressedAmerican]

19. Hmmmm? New?

[mattclearing]

52. I like Kerry, but when I hear "New Democrat," he's not the first thing...

...that comes to mind.

[LittleClarkie]

36. Bill Clinton

Nuff said.

Kerry's too liberal.

[Forever Free]

49. "Kerry's too liberal"?

Apparently not enough to most people on this thread, LittleClarkie.

[LittleClarkie]

55. Example one:

DSM

Kerry: Considers it significant, and took action regarding it, though not as much as some wanted, but more than most.

Clinton: "Gee, DSM? What's that?"

[blm]

57. You described Kerry completely wrong. That's the problem.

Kerry participates in Third Way politics to represent a left counter to the centrists and rightleaners who are usually pulling rightward.

Dean is a better example of New Dem governance, because he actually governed that way in Vermont.

[Forever Free]

59. Who is to say Kerry wouldn't govern in a similar fashion?

In fact, John Kerry is listed as a DLC member and a member of the New Democrat Senate coalition.

[blm]

64. Yeah. There has to be lefties to pull left while centrists pull right.

He may GOVERN giving fair hearings to the centrist and rightleaning positions and may include some of their ideas in overall policies, but, I have no doubt what his own instincts and positions are for the greater part.

[blm]

56. Kerry's to the left of most New Democrats, so I don't see him representing

that view the way you may think.

I think the way Howard Dean governed in Vermont is the best example of Third Way politics to advance goals negotiated by the left AND the right.

Kerry has been more a lefty politician representing lefty goals DURING the negotiations with the centrists and right leaning lawmakers.

[LittleClarkie]

61. So he's a lefty who's willing to work things out

with the various other sides?

Here's a question for you though. I've often said that I thought the most "New Dem" thing about Kerry was his foreign policy. Agree or disagree, and why?

[blm]

66. He's always been the "Tough Dove" - believes in a strong military that

works SMARTER and never deployed unnecessarily.

Most people probably are unaware that Kerry doesn't BELIEVE in carpet-bombing and overwhelming air strikes. He believes that too many civilians are killed that way and it makes it harder for nations to recover and hurts America's credibility. It also makes longterm enemies out of civilian citizens of the target nation.

He believes in surgical strikes of military targets, but, mostly that well-trained forces should be prepared to move directly against the enemy where their forces are most concentrated and AWAY from civilian areas.

He also would have cancelled the mini-nuke program.

That's the difference between having a military that's strong and smart and having a military that's strong but being decimated by the dumb strategy that end up hurting us worse in the long run.

[LittleClarkie]

68. But would you call that a New Democrat-type stance?

Or just Kerry's own personal brand of foreign policy. Could his position be called even vaguely DLC-ish

[Forever Free]

73. I think it most certainly can. n/t

[blm]

74. No. Most centrist Dems go along with the strong military WITH nuke power

and carpet-bombing and all that.

I do believe if Kerry HAD the bully pulpit and the opportunity he would PROVE that his way is smarter and more effective. I would bet anything that Clark would agree with Kerry on this.

[Forever Free]

76. Kerry doesn't advocate dismantling our nuclear arsenal.

He IS against developing new type of nuclear weapons however.

[blm]

82. That's a BIG difference from the Clintonian Dems right there.

.

[LittleClarkie]

84. They seemed to be working together during the campaign

to the point that I think Clark was one of Kerry's advisors toward the end, that I concur. Their positions are probably quite close to each other.

[Forever Free]

72. Exactly. n/t.

[wryter2000]

5. I don't think you want to use that term

"New Democrat" has been taken by moderate Republicans who are sick of their own party. DiFi considers herself a new democrat. A republican friend of mine (who was very active in one of the dem campaigns during the primary) proudly told me once, "I'm a new democrat." It took quite a bit of restraint to keep me from yelling at her, "Fix your own party!"

[Forever Free]

7. What's wrong with accepting moderate Republicans...

that are disaffected by their own radicalized party?

Sounds like a winning strategy to me.

[justinsb]

8. Nothing wrong with it except

if the New Dem candidates start looking like the old Republican candidates, I'll vote Green.

[OzarkDem]

25. Its great to welcome them

but obviously the reason they left their own party was because they felt its ideas were no longer working or valid. Why would Dems want to copy that?

[wryter2000]

60. I didn't say anything to her

But, basically, she wanted to change the Democratic party into the old Republican party. We need our party, not theirs.

[IrateCitizen]

10. There is nothing "progressive" about New Democrats...

If you had urged people to show their love for a version of the status quo that works, then your statement would have been valid. But there is nothing truly "progressive" about New Democrats outside of nibbling on the edges.

But then again, I'm more in line with Critical Marxism (Adorno, Horkheimer, Marcuse, The Frankfurt School), so what in the hell do I know???

[justinsb]

11. Bravo

I'm more of a social democrat myself, but just because John Kerry is more progressive than say Strom Thurmond doesn't make him a progressive.

[Forever Free]

15. So exactly HOW is John Kerry NOT a progressive?

I'm pretty sure he's a strong advocate for women's rights, gay rights, civil rights, and the environment.

[justinsb]

22. Half measures and pretty language

do not make you a progressive. His environmental policies are weak, he didn't support gay marriage, and everyone - everyone at least claims to be for women's rights and civil rights. There is nothing new about John Kerry and this time around, if he's re-nominated I won't vote for him. Enough of good cop - bad cop, enough of the lesser of two evils, enough of republican lite. Find a real progressive, with genuinely progressive policies. The Dems, any Dem, will have to earn my vote.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. 3 letters. I-W-R.

And, his continued support of the occupation.

Not unless you consider the invasion and occupation of Iraq "progressive".

[IrateCitizen]

28. John Kerry holds a lot of single-issue stances...

... as do most establishment Democrats. But a bunch of single-issue stances does not a progressive make. Progressivism is more about an overall, unifying VISION -- like, what we really want the society and world in which we live to look like.

IIRC, Kerry's campaign really did NOTHING to articulate such a vision outside of, "Pretty much like we have now, but a little tweak here and there."

Kind of like I said, a buttressing of the status quo rather than a call for reform....

[Forever Free]

48. Does progressivism mean completely changing the system?

NO, it means making PROGRESS. I happen to think the American system, for all its flaws, is pretty damn good. So reforming that system isn't a bad thing at all IMO.

[blm]

58. Baloney. Kerry's campaign was all about governing completely different

than Bush in every way.

[IrateCitizen]

63. Your response does not answer my initial post.

I did not say that Kerry would or would not govern differently than Bush. What I said was that he didn't articulate a vision for what kind of society we want to live in that deviated from the status quo. In that sense, his "vision" was, as I described it, "pretty much what we have right now, but with some tweaks here and there."

The tweaks would be simply in the manner that the status quo was administered, not in changing the status quo itself. But then again, anyone who proposes altering the status quo -- no matter how fucked up and full of contradictions it might be -- doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of being elected.

It's times like this that I wonder why I even bother coming in GDF anymore.... :shrug:

[Mass]

67. Give me a pol that has the vision you describe

[IrateCitizen]

69. Well, today they're largely marginalized...

Bernie Sanders immediately leaps to mind. Not because of the fact that his views are cast as "leftist", but because they encompass an ideology and articulate a vision of where he wants to take his constitutents.

But as for those who have had success on a national stage, I would say Robert LaFollette was a prime example. So was FDR, albeit in a slightly less radical manner.

[Mass]

70. OK, I would agree with you on that.

Unfortunately, we have to deal with what we have, and even there, some are better than others.

I really hope Sanders will be elected senator.

[IrateCitizen]

71. Sanders will get elected Senator in a landslide...

VT only has one house seat, and two senate seats. He always wins his house races in a landslide, and even the Dems have stopped running anyone against him.

Of course, he comes from an area that isn't nearly as overwhelmed by media culture, and still has the underpinnings of old-style "Town Hall" democracy.

What we generally have in the majority of the country is a choice between terrible and disastrous. Of course, my reasoning on that would take a long time to articulate -- perhaps the best place to point you is toward Critical Theory and the Frankfurt School.

[blm]

75. You're WRONG. His healthcare plan, workers' rights, working WITH other

nations to deal with the ROOTS of terrorism, his approach to HONEST governance, and his environmental plans highlighted by the full funding of alternative fuel research is all markedly different, and he talked about it EVERY campaign rally and speech.

The media chose to ignore ALL of these issues in favor of promoting the theme that "Bush can't be beat on the terror issue" for their master Rove.

[IrateCitizen]

77. This exchange in a nutshell is why I usually avoid this forum...

You're wrong...

No, YOU'RE wrong...

No, YOU'RE wrong...

No, YOU'RE wrong...

The fact of the matter is that, with the perspective at which I'm approaching this discussion, you can't say anything that will reasonably cause me to reconsider my position, because we've been through it all before. Likewise, there isn't anything that I can say to make you reconsider yours, for the same reason. In other words, it's the same old, same old.


It's been real. Back to Peak Oil and Environment/Energy for me. :eyes:

[Forever Free]

78. "Live and let die"

While I strongly disagree with IrateCitizen, I'll just have to agree to disagree. Hopefully, the disagreement was cordial and polite.

[IrateCitizen]

79. There's a difference between disagreement and telling someone...

... that they are WRONG.

Disagreement is simply a by-product of a discussion between people coming from different perspectives.

Telling someone that they're wrong (and therefore insisting that you are right) is simply the natural progression of disagreement on a fast-moving forum such as this.

Although I do not agree with your conclusions and believe many of them to be based on faulty assumptions, I will certainly agree that our disagreement was cordial and polite. However, I just have this thing about being told I'm wrong based on things that are entirely up to interpretation and impression as opposed to hard facts. I've found it's better to simply walk away when that happens.

Cheers!
:toast:

[blm]

80. What do you expect, IC, when you give a shorthand version of who Kerry is

and doesn't even match the reality of the man, his campaign, and his 35 year record of public service?

Facts matter.

[Forever Free]

14. Marxism? Yeah I'm talking about progressivism that WORKS

I don't hate the free-market and capitalist enterprise.

[justinsb]

18. When has it worked? Kerry can't even get elected

and he supported the war in Iraq, How is that 'progressivism that works'? Sounds like 'compassionate conservatism' to me.

[Forever Free]

24. His philosophy works (look at Clinton's two terms)

Just because he was a weak campaigner doesn't dilute his message.

And he didn't "support the war". I'm tired of hearing this. He voted to give the president the AUTHORITY to hold Saddam accountable and to allow inspections to resume again. Kerry himself SAID it many times.

[justinsb]

29. I resigned as a ward captain from my DCC when Clinton was elected

don't even get me started on Clinton, he was a moderate republican. And Kerry said it was the right war being fought in the wrong way all through the campaign Kerry supported the war, and as far as I know he still does.

[Forever Free]

33. Well there's not much more to be said then

I disagree with that assessment. And Kerry did say, "Wrong war at the wrong place at the wrong time"

[DistressedAmerican]

50. Typical Kerry. Speak Out Against And Vote For...

why do you think that the flip-flopper label stuck?

[Forever Free]

51. He made his consistent position CLEAR on Iraq when he voted for IWR.

Go and read the speech. There has been no flip-flopping.

[DistressedAmerican]

83. It Was Voting For It After Opposing It Verbally That WAS The Flip-Flop!

That is what the guy does. He rattles of a quote opposing this or that, then votes FOR it. What are you misssing.

The record is quite clear. He spoke out against it. Then he voted for it. Then he tried to explain the vote away.

Let's not even start on the Partiot Act or the Ohio Recount.

[Forever Free]

85. What about the Patriot Act or the Ohio Recount?

He opposes the application of the Patriot Act (along with certain provisions). He send his campaign lawyers into Ohio to investigate any potential election fraud. They found none.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. He did support the war, and continues to support the occupation.

And, I well imagine that you are "tired" of hearing it.

As for Clinton's 2 terms. He can thank the Ross Perot and a booming economy built on the yet unburst Internet Bubble.

[Forever Free]

39. Again, this is where we part company.

I don't believe in getting out of Iraq NOW, or setting a timetable for withdrawal. But we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. Why am I not surprised?

As for disagreeing with your (and Kerry's) stance. Count on it.

[JNelson6563]

38. If you knew then what you know now

would you vote for the IWR again?

Yes.

That about sealed the deal IMO.

[Forever Free]

45. A clarification

Would he vote to give the president the authority? YES he would. But would Kerry support the actual invasion. NO.

[IrateCitizen]

21. Ahh... the ramblings of the ignorant...

Before you go off the deep end and start accusing me of "hating markets and free enterprise", why don't you do yourself (and everyone else) a favor and do a quick internet search for "Critical Marxism" or "The Frankfurt School" and then take some time to READ what it says.

If you do toke the time to do so, you might be surprised to learn that Critical Marxism (also referred to as critical theory) really has very little to do with markets or free enterprise or anything like it.

If I sound overly harsh, it is only because I have no patience for those who engage in knee-jerk reactionary behavior about things they obviously know little or nothing about.

[Forever Free]

31. Critical Marxism: an interesting theory and method of analysis

I was indeed too quick to pass judgment. But I still disagree with you about the whole New Democrat thing.

[mmonk]

44. By the way, I've had three

businesses of my own so I support free enterprise. I also support a just wage. I also support a clean environment. I also support a safe workplace. I also oppose business interests where it conflicts with the rights of a citizen (I prefer responsiblity). So you can support free enterprise and NOT be a "New Democrat". It's a matter of understanding what's in the public interest as well as the private interests.

[Forever Free]

46. Never said you couldn't be for free enterprise and not be a New Democrat

Point well taken.

[mmonk]

53. And I don't want to do

battle with fellow dems. I think we should all be Democrats and get the rw radicals out of government. The DLC attacks fellow Dems openly and mocks them like our opponents do and tries to silence some of us, especially on the Iraq war.

[Forever Free]

54. Far-left Dems attack more moderate Dems all the time

for being Republican-lite. Case in point: Kerry and Clinton.

[mmonk]

65. I helped with Cinton/Gore

in '96. I used to be a member of the DLC briefly, but they kept going further right. They still kept sending me Blueprint long after I quit and I read what they said about fellow Dems in print. Also, most of the policy views were just like republican views with a little more progressive wording for cover. But most of the time, it was more or less attacking what it considered "old" democratic liberal views that were out of touch with "mainstream" America. They always threw in "family values and faith" (I'm certainly not against those things it's just it's an old GOP talking point). So if the DLC wants peace over power and will attack the right instead of other Dems without being afraid, I'll extend my hand to them. If they want to silence and ridicule other Dems, I won't.

[stray cat]

12. I would rather moderates joined dems instead of republicans

The only way to fix the republican party is to defeat the radicals in elections. The only way to do that is to unite together on things we can agree on and coherently debate on those areas where we disagree. Unless democrats are no longer a 'big tent" party open to diverse ideals.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. The problem being that the ND/DLC wants to attract them by selling out.

Hell, the Democratic Party is already a "moderate" party. The misnamed "New" Democrats want to move to being a truly conservative party.

[Double T]

13. All Democrats Better Unite Or We Are Going To Continue To Have.....

Republicans And Neocons Running Our Lives And Our Country Into The Ground!!!!!

[mmonk]

16. How about New Democrats

unite with "old Democrats" so as to not confuse the public into thinking that the administration's policies are ok and quit denigrating other Democrats such as Dean just like the republicans do? Sorry for my rant.

[OzarkDem]

30. Wouldn't it be great

If conservative Democrats paid as much attention to the ideas and beliefs of their fellow Democrats as they do to Republicans?

[mmonk]

34. Yes it would.

Maybe then we'd have enough strength to fight our way out of a wet paper bag and take America back from the right.

[justinsb]

37. Yes it would

The rise of the greens, and other progressives who don't vote D is the fault of the Democrats and no one else. Progressives have, for years now, been told to just keep voting for Democrats, the lesser of two evils, slow progress is better than none etc., but as soon as the elctions are over progressives get pushed to the back of the room and are asked to keep quiet.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. There's nothing "new" about the New Democrats.

Just recycled Republican moderates.

[Forever Free]

27. Yeah and there's nothing new about your tired old rhetoric. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. Well, I'm a tired old cynic who doesn't buy Republican(D) crap.

[Forever Free]

41. Yup, I'm a Republican alright.

I'm so Republican that I voted for Kerry. :eyes:

[Capn Sunshine]

20. ...

[Pithy Cherub]

43. LOL!

The New-New-brand spanking NEW democrats that burn their principles on votes like IWR, bankruptcy bills D-MBNA, ANWR, Medicare votes un leave me uninspired and unwilling to part with time, money or a vote.

[Village Idiot]

23. Ya - Jack Layton Rocks!!!!

You were, no doubt, aware that the leader of Canada's New Democratic Party is Jack Layton?

Let's hope that he ends up Prime Minister someday.

[Telly Savalas]

81. If only there were an NDP in the U.S.

Sigh...

[ladjf]

47. I don't think that the party's problem is with the rank and file.

It's with the Dems in Congress that are failing to speak for us. I don't know exactly how that happened. But, it needs to be corrected.
I suggest that we start with dumping several of the worst. You know who they are. They wear Dem suits but speak the Pub line.

[MadHound]

62. Uh, no thank you.

New Dems are part of the problem, both with the party and this country. Go home to the Republicans, and clean up your own house there. Don't come here polluting ours. You've already done enough damage with Clinton, Kerry and the other quislings you've unleashed in the party. I understand why you're flocking over here in droves, I wouldn't want to share space with the RW fundies either. But rather than mess up our party you should clean up your own.