Thank you Morality Policewoman Clinton!

[nankerphelge]

I don't own GTA San Andreas, but am extremely annoyed with all this nonsense. I can't vote for her in any national election now.

[bushisanidiot]

1. I wonder how she feels about AWOL Bush & Jeff Gannon having sex in the

white house...

i'll bet those two did all kinds of stuff that hillary and bill never dreamed of doing.

[lies and propaganda]

3. and Pickles and Bush for that matter N/T

[bushisanidiot]

13. I doubt Pickles has gotten any since Jeff Gannon has been around

if you know what i mean..

[lies and propaganda]

36. well of course, who wants a pickle when you can have a bulldog?

[Booster]

39. Like Hillary, I really don't think Pickles even wants any from that

idiot.

[Blue_In_AK]

2. Seems like pandering to me...

...but what do I know?

[Warren DeMontague]

4. I'm thinking about buying it, now.

Seriously.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. So wanting to protect kids

is wrong? :shrug:

[REP]

9. Oh My God! Kids Were Being Attacked By Video Games?!? Horrible!

Oh, you mean that hack in that game that was to be sold to people *17* years and older. 17 is not an innocent widdle kiddie. Get real.

[Iris]

15. Oh, so you mean NO children under 17 can get access to that game?

What country do you live in?

[pocket]

20. anyone who can download the HOT COFFEE Patch can also

download real porn.

This is a stupid political stunt and Hillary is acting like some kind of fundie repug.

[Iris]

22. Still, I don't thin we should just act like this doesn't matter.

I think there needs to be some kind of discussion about how this affects kids, and I don't think parents get much support from society when it comes to stuff like this. (And, I'm NOT a parent. It's just pretty easy to see how hard it must be for parents.)

[Clark2008]

41. And they'll still be able to.

What's your point?

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Some links to help you see that there is indeed a problem here:

(CBS) Imagine if the entertainment industry created a video game in which you could decapitate police officers, kill them with a sniper rifle, massacre them with a chainsaw, and set them on fire.

Think anyone would buy such a violent game?

They would, and they have. The game Grand Theft Auto has sold more than 35 million copies, with worldwide sales approaching $2 billion.

Last winter, a multi-million dollar lawsuit was filed in Alabama against the makers and marketers of Grand Theft Auto, claiming that months of playing the game led a teenager to go on a rampage and kill three men, two of them police officers.

Grand Theft Auto is a world governed by the laws of depravity. See a car you like? Steal it. Someone you don't like? Stomp her. A cop in your way? Blow him away.

There are police at every turn, and endless opportunities to take them down. It is 360 degrees of murder and mayhem: slickly produced, technologically brilliant, and exceedingly violent.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/17/60minutes/main702599.shtml

Video game 'sparked hammer murder'

These types of games are basically murder simulators. There are people being killed over here almost on a daily basis.
-- U.S. Lawyer Jack Thompson


LONDON, England -- Campaigners are stepping up pressure for a violent video game to be banned after it was blamed for the horrific murder of a 14-year-old British boy by an older friend.

The game, Manhunt, is described by its promoters as a "sado-masochistic" game in which players gain extra points depending on the viciousness of their killings.

Warren Leblanc faces a life sentence for repeatedly battering Stefan Pakeerah with a claw hammer and stabbing him to death after luring him to a local park in Leicester, in the English Midlands.

The 17-year-old pleaded guilty to murder at Leicester Crown Court Wednesday.

The game was banned by censorship officials in New Zealand six months ago and one campaigner had written to its producers warning the "murder simulator" could lead to copycat killings.

Stefan's father, Patrick, a civil servant, added: "The way Warren committed the murder this is how the game is set out, killing people using weapons like hammers and knives.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/07/29/uk.manhunt/

And from the website of an organization aiming at educating parents:

Our vision is to build healthy families and communities through the wise use of media.

We do not advocate censorship of any kind. We are committed to partnering with parents and other caregivers, organizations, and corporations in using the power of the free market to create healthier media choices for families, so that we have healthier, less violent communities. We seek to educate and inform the public, and to encourage practices and policies that promote positive change in the production and use of mass media.

http://www.mediafamily.org/about/index.shtml

[Sugarbleus]

32. I don't care for Hillary BUT I do believe that some of these

games and movies ARE TOO HORRID to be allowed into hands of children.

For heaven's sake! DUers constantly talk about how VIOLENT this country is. Foreigners say the same thing about our culture; yet we DON'T want to address the garbage that comes out of entertainment industry??????

DOUBLE STANDARD ANYONE?

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. AMEN!!

The army uses video games to train soldiers for combat. Why in the world would it not alarm any thinking adult that a child is playing these games?

What's next? Drafting 12 year olds for combat? NCLB says the military can recruit them at that age.

The funny thing is that I am a 51 year old woman who does not play video games. And you know how I found out about how violent GTA is? My own kids, who are in their 20s, told me. I mentioned my students (9 and 10 year olds) were infatuated with this game and my 26 year old son said "Mom, you have got to be kidding. YOUR KIDS ARE PLAYING GTA??" He then showed me the game and I was shocked. It is NOT a kids' game. Yet I know few kids in 4th and 5th grade who do not play it. So their parents are obviously not getting the message that this is not appropriate entertainment for children.

If Hillary has gotten the attention of some of those parents, then more power to her.

[Sugarbleus]

43. 56 yo granny here ...=o)

Same thing happened to me w/my g.son, I didn't know :blush:

Heck, some of these kids WILL get videos, games, and music from ANY source they can find; besides having a parent actually buying it for them.

"Friends share".......... Naivete about real world activities is harmful.

[Zhade]

46. It's pretty sad those students' parents are illiterate.

I mean, they'd HAVE to be in order to miss the warning on the box GTA:SA comes in, and to miss the fact that the title itself mentions a felony.

Of course, there are parents who know and still buy it for their kids anyway (not a great idea, IMHO) - how would one propose stopping those kids from getting the game?

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. I don't know what the answer is

I just know that tons of kids do play this game. And for that reason, I appreciate what Hillary is doing. She is surely getting some of these idiot parents' attention. I myself had no idea how incredibly violent this game was until I saw it myself.

A lot of the kids who play it don't own it but the neighbor kid does, or their friend. Parents need to be careful about where they let their kids play and who their kids' friends are.

[Zhade]

60. Her misrepresentation of the facts of this issue bother me.

Keeping games kids shouldn't play away from them (but not from adults who want them) does not bother me.

The thing is, Clinton makes it seem like ANY kid can see the sex in the game just by having it, and that's simply untrue. One can't mod the PS2 version, for example.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. As soon as school starts next month,

PM me and I will let you know how many kids at my school have played this game - with the additional parts you can download.

And I will bet it's a large number.

[Zhade]

70. You cannot download the MOD for the PS2 version.

This is PC-only. If parents monitor their kids access to the internet (there are tons of applications for this), and keep the computer in a common area, guess what? The number will go drastically down.

I have no doubt kids are playing this. I don't like that. However, I refuse to even consider censorship as a solution (not that you are endorsing such a move).

[charlie]

72. Actually, you can

You just need an Action Replay and some codes. Your other points are taken, however. I wonder if some of these folks expecting legislative enforcement are aware of customizable content, like Doom WADs? As long as your kid can access the Web, he can get his sex and violence game fix.

[Zhade]

73. Last time I checked, that was just a rumor.

Has that been established as fact now? Do you have a link? (Not doubting you, I just want my info to be correct.)

Even if this is now true, the fact remains that the codes would be useless without kids having a copy of GTA (which carding and fines would prevent them from getting), and the codes still access something that can't be accessed by just playing the game.

[charlie]

75. Sure

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/15/news_6129301.html

I agree. Perhaps it would be better if producers guaranteed that objectionable content wasn't left in the code (not as easy as some would think), but software is malleable and any kid can get unsavory mods as long as he has unsupervised access to the Web.

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. The only thing I am endorsing here is

education.

[Zhade]

45. Of COURSE they're not for children.

And, of course, it says so RIGHT ON THE BOX.

If parents still buy it for their kids, when it's rated Mature and reveals the gory details of why on the box, I feel zero sympathy for them.

I'm not adverse to carding for games and fines for selling to minors, though.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. No I feel no sympathy for the parents either

But I sure feel for their kids.

[Zhade]

58. Hey, same here.

The kids don't know any better.

[Maru Kitteh]

48. I agree with you entirely

We had better start addressing ALL the various crap in our culture that desensitizes our youth and ourselves to relentless, mindless violence. It's part of what is creating a nation of chickenhawk freepers.

There is NOTHING wrong with regulating video games to empower parents to bring up their own children as they see fit, just like there is nothing wrong with preventing children from buying vodka, hustler mags or shotguns. Before anyone goes saying something utterly predictable like "I never heard of someone blowing their brains out or killing their wife with a video game" let me say this - Ask yourself just once why the military spends untold MILLIONS maybe billions on video simulation training. Do you think, just possibly it could have to do with taking pliable, bendable young minds and twisting them into suitably violent units of destruction? In the services you simulate killing until it is ordinary.

The porn in this game was just the final straw. Parents have been upset about this for some time. It will doubtless be annoying to the very young, but I don't think there's enough steam, clout or sympathy on that side of this issue to carry any weight. You will see movement now on enforced regulation and I for one think it's a good thing.

[oasis]

47. That's his issue. He's a one issue guy. The GOP does bad stuff too but

what Hillary did is an abomination.:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. So it is an abomination

to want to educate parents and protect kids? :shrug:

[Ksec]

6. shes smart

she knows the damage will not be more than the support she gets on this. Shes a politician. Its what they do.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

7. Same here. I'm a one issue (video games) voter

:shrug:

[Finder]

18. lol good point..

however, she got the hairs of us anti-censorship peeps standing up.

[Johonny]

28. Bahahahahaha

classic.

[applegrove]

8. I don't think kids should have access to pornography of any kind.

And especially not in the middle of an adrenaline filled hunt or shoot-em-out.

Medical personnel will tell you that little guys are very vulnerable to imprinting in their first few sexual experiences.

Why ignore that medical fact. Why listen to the video industry attack Hillary? They don't give a shit about the sexual health of kids. That is not their job.

It is however the job of Leaders to identify potential serious problems and regulate them.

[REP]

10. Don't Buy The Game for Kids under Age 17

I don't understand what is so hard about this.

Oh, and throw out your Bible. That Song of Solomon is pretty racy.

[applegrove]

14. Have a clear line and penalities between games directed at 12 to 15 years

olds and pornography. Sorry if that cuts up the market. But kids are different than adults. They have different needs.

[Iris]

16. Yep. And don't buy liquor for your kids who are under 21.

Then they'll never, ever, ever, ever get drunk when they are underage.

[applegrove]

30. Oh I think that making the North, South, East & West of a twelve

year old's sexuality mixed up with "hunting humans" is a little bit more serious than a teen getting drunk. Why it should be more heavily regulated.

[Zhade]

51. What other measures should be taken, then?

NT!

[applegrove]

65. Ban it in the market for kids games. Put it in adult games if that turns

your crank. And send those adults who want to consume it to the porn shop (section).

No violence & sex laced games in any way available to teens - no matter what the oversight. XXX printed all over the box. And Hefty fines for producing such child centered porn that is easily downloaded without the proper catches.

[Zhade]

68. I heartily disagree.

There is no reason to make adults like me go to the porn section for games kids shouldn't be playing anyway.

Your solution smacks of the morality police. Fuck that. Just card gamers and fine those who sell to minors. DONE.

As far as kids downloading the game, that's already illegal.

[Finder]

24. But the rating was already M...

and 17+ so young kids having access was not an issue(legally). I still can't understand why violence is fine but sex is not but that is another issue.

[applegrove]

37. It is the mix that is not okay. And that vulnerable kids need time to

develop their own natural sexuality - without outside influence from adults & "baked" sex acts in porn. I'm not for violence in videos but that is regulated. It is when an industry purposely mixes the sex with the violence in games that are geared for 12 to 15 year olds & highly addictive - that kids should have no access whatsoever to it.

It is a health issue.

[Finder]

42. Mix....?

I would rather my kids see porn than violence.

It is a mental health issue.

[applegrove]

44. But do you want them to see porn with violence? That is the issue.

As to porn for kids - that is ridiculous. Violence is already regulated. Nothing wrong with saying sex mixed with violence is something that should be banned.

[Finder]

59. Well my kids would not be playing this game...

since they are under 17 and thankfully not into violence.

I was just saying violence is worse than sex. IMO

[applegrove]

61. When sex is included as part of the violence - and you have an immature

mind - you could have a monster. Or at the very least a sexually inadequate nincompoop who would be sussing out sex laced with violence his whole life and ignoring the real women or male (if he is homosexual)available to him.

[Zhade]

52. Indeed. Sex is less scarring (assuming it's consensual).

NT!

[applegrove]

62. But a teen does not have the capacity to "consent" to cartoon porn in

the middle of a video game. Because that kid is too young to consent to any form of 'adult sex'. Be it as a participant or a consumer.

[Zhade]

66. In this case, the player HAS to consent.

There is no way to see the sex other than to download and apply a mod that allows you to see what couldn't possibly be accessed in the retail release of the game.

By seeking out the mod and applying it (to the PC-version ONLY, remember - this is NOT available on the PS2 version), the player is essentially consenting.

If the ratings were enforced and violators fined for selling to kids, we wouldn't even be discussing this right now.

[applegrove]

69. A teen does not have the legal ability to consent to sex acts - be it

porn or be it as a consumer over a computer - with an adult or 'adult industry'. Up to the gaming industry to enforce this. They are the adults. They know how to follow rules. The onus should be on them to comply with strict regulations or pay through the ying yang - as it is the only language industry understands.

[Zhade]

71. Please reread the last sentence of post #66.

There is already a solution.

[Zhade]

49. If they didn't care, they never would have created a rating system.

Which they created voluntarily, by the way - they were not forced to do so.

[Imajika]

11. Seriously now...

I have the game, got it for Christmas, and one of these days I intend to open the package and play it.

I think Hillary's stand on this is ridiculous too, but why would that prevent you from voting for her in a national election? Considering all things, Hillary has far more positive policy positions than negative - at least in my view.

She's just pandering to millions of parents out there who are worried about all the sex and violence their kids have access too. This is something plenty of Democratic and Independent parents worry about too. Remember, both parents have to work these days just to survive, so there is often no one to watch the kids some/much of the time. All successful national politicians take up silly feel-good causes like this.

Yeah, it's stupid to attack video game creaters - especially when there is an endless supply of much more important issues to address, but if we want left of center candidates to have a shot to win we are just gonna have to put up with these sorts of things from time to time.

I disagree with Hillary on this, but I would have no trouble voting for her at all.

Imajika

[sendero]

19. The problem is..

.... that pandering is like heroin abuse. It starts small but it always leads to the same place.

I'm not saying I wouldn't vote for her, but I really have no respect for her anymore - she spends all her time trying to play the angles rather than actually accomplish anything good and meaningful for America and Americans.

[Imajika]

34. Well...

"that pandering is like heroin abuse. It starts small but it always leads to the same place."

I know, I know, and you are quite correct, but politicians pandering is a fact of life that is simply never going to away. You pick a candidate that doesn't pander, and I'll match an accomplished politician that's been pandering for a lifetime against your candidate, and 99% of the time my panderbear politician wins. You know, a lot of the time left of center politicians pander to their base and special interest groups too. Do you really believe many of the congressmen/women or Senators intend to do half the stuff they promise - even when it's stuff you approve of?

In a democratic system, successful politicians nearly ALWAYS pander like this. I've lived in several countries, including 3rd world countries with infant democracies, and they do the exact same thing there too.

"she spends all her time trying to play the angles rather than actually accomplish anything good and meaningful for America and Americans."

I know your upset about this, but that is not a fair statement. Hillary tried to provide healthcare to every American - how many major political figures have paid this issue more than the standard lip service? You gotta take the good with the bad. Hillary is more good than bad, and certainly better than the current occupant or whatever successor the GOP choses, so I'd have no trouble voting for her at all.

Politicians pandering, unfortunantly, is just a fact of life.

Imajika

[sendero]

38. Well..

... I'm a lot more interested in what Hillary has done in the last few years as opposed to her doomed and ill-conceived efforts in 1993.

I agree with you to a point about pandering. But let me ask you this - when was the last time you heard Howard Dean pander? How about Wesley Clark?

Now, Clark hasn't been elected to anything, and maybe he never will. And perhaps when Dean was governor he did a bit of pandering.

But seriously, I get your point, a certain amount of schmoozing is necessary to get elected. I just like the real/pandering ratio to be rather high, and with Hillary it seems to be pretty low.

[Zhade]

57. I wouldn't have voted for her already, but I have real problems here.

One of them is that she misrepresents the truth about the situation.

The game is already rated M. It has specific warnings about exactly what to expect in the game printed right on the box.

The (blocky, goofy, hardly titillating) sex scenes WERE NOT INTENDED TO BE PLAYED in the released version of the game. If someone had not MODDED the game, no kids would see the sex that goes along with the violent scenes of shooting and stabbing that they already shouldn't be seeing.

This content is NOT available to every child that somehow obtains a copy of the game. Clinton's misrepresentation of the facts to make political points is disgusting, even if oh so very expected by now.

I don't want kids playing this game. I've played it, and I do NOT want my six-year-old son playing it. If someone sold him the game, I'd go to the store and demand the person be fired. I have no problem with carding for M-rated games and fining those who sell them to minors.

I do, however, have a problem with anything past that, especially censorship or banning modding. In the end, enforcing the ratings system will clear up 99% of this problem. There will always be kids who get things they shouldn't get and read/see/hear things they shouldn't.

I am NOT willing to censor anything on the off chance a child who shouldn't be exposed to it ends up exposed to it. Anyone who thinks violent or sexual games should be banned because kids can get them better be prepared to ban cigarettes, booze, erotica, R-rated movies, religious texts, and hundreds if not thousands of other things.

That's my take on the issue.

[Finder]

12. Ya know...

I could see this as being important if the video game was originally rated for kids but it has always been M 17+. WTF is the difference between M and AO?

Did a bunch of parents of 17 year olds complain to Senator Clinton? I do want to hear her side.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nankerphelge]

27. I'm 32 years old and guess what...

I can handle seeing sex and violence, even when it's in video game format. You know what else? Even if the fact that it's only sold to 17+ year olds and parents should have the obligation of knowing what their kids are doing, I think that a kid that saw it would come away unscathed as well. And for everyone calling this a shrewd political calculation, I could not disagree more. Republicans operate on hyping non-issues into big deal. Apparently global warming, impeachable crimes, war without end aren't really problems. It's that a kid might see some cartoon-y sex and violence. What a fucking joke.

[Tactical Progressive]

35. Nanker, I could so care less about video titties

You think that's the issue? There's two issues here, and you're wrong on both of them:

1) What did Hillary do wrong? Nothing, that's what. Furthermore, what she did and the way she did it was perfect.

2) I don't care if Hillary came out and said all violent and sexual videogames should be banned for sale to anyone, even adults. I 100% disagree with anything even close to that, and I would hate it and be very upset at her for doing it. It's the fact that you'd let that impact your vote against this fascist corruption that is destroying this country that puts you on the wrong side of any possible interpretation of this issue. Videogames over country?

You're wrong in saying that what she did was wrong, and you're way beyond wrong in what you say your reaction would be to it. I'm hoping you were just being hyperbolic.

[Zhade]

64. Clinton HAS done some wrong here, though.

She's misrepresented the facts in this case. The sex is NOT available to just any kid who has a copy of GTA.

She allows people to think that for political points, and it's dishonest.

I agree that it's not enough to throw away a vote (though I didn't support her BEFORE this).

[Tactical Progressive]

74. I'm unaware of that

From my understanding the sex scenes were imbedded in the game, presumably only needing to be activated by crackers.

But since that rendition comes from the mainstream media, I don't trust the information.

[Initech]

21. I really cant vote for Clinton either after this stunt.

Sadly, it's total bullshit, that's all it is.

[Cocoa]

23. you can't vote for her because of a video game?

let's get our priorities straight here.

[walldude]

54. She's the one who needs her priorties straight..

There is already a ratings system in place. It should be enforced and thats it. Beyond that is censorship. We have much bigger fish to fry than game companies right now.

[Deja Q]

26. I can't vote for anyone.

All bought and sold.

[Snotcicles]

29. What is there, like a chain somewhere

that if you pull it all the Clinton haters come out?
What a lame ass weak issue to pretend your not going to vote for someone over.

[Johonny]

31. Heaven forbid

our government occasionally provide some oversight to self regulating industry. One can only hope for more oversight of industry not less in my book.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

33. This is a parody.

Isn't it?

[CantGetFooledAgain]

53. Okay, maybe someone here can educate me...

Where does Hillary stand on the issues that seem to be most important to the people on this site? Rovegate, the mess in Iraq, Bolton. The environment. Civil liberties. Election fraud. War profiteering. The defecit.

What has she done or said to date on these issues to move them in the right direction? I'm not a student of Hillary or any other member of Congress so I need your help.

My uninformed, gut reaction is this: making a stink over video games is a political "move". It sets her up as a family values type. It's an early campaign strategy.

I'm not interested in politicians right now. I'm interested in reformers with guts. Like Conyers and Boxer. I'd like Hillary better if she spent more time out on a limb.

Maybe I have Hillary wrong. If so, please feel free to flame me.

[stepnw1f]

63. How Does Pickles Feel About George and Condi?

Talk about morals....!

snarf

[Moderator]

77. Locking

Flamebait.

-DU Moderator