Question about c section's vs partial birth abortions

[rjx]

I am for partial birth abortions ONLY if the doctor determines that the woman has a chance of dying if she were to give birth.

I was debating someone about this, and he said that you can do the same thing with a c section as you could with a partial birth abortion. Is this true?

[Bunny]

1. Google is your friend.

[DaveinMD]

2. I don't think this is true

in all cases.

[Beaverhausen]

3. not true in any cases

this is bullshit.

[DaveinMD]

20. thanks

Not an expert. Just 100 percent pro choice.

[nini]

4. depends on the situation with the mother

a c-section is a major surgery which is more invasive than the Partial Birth abortion.

My take is if a c-section was possible for the mother it would be the choice to treat her.

[MadMichDem]

5. No such thing as a partial birth abortion...

it's right wing rhetoric. A C section is much more invasive and a bigger danger to the woman. I don't know the particulars, but there's no surgery involved in a late term abortion.

[gkhouston]

11. I believe that a late-term abortion involves dilation of the cervix

(duh) but no surgery is involved. A C-section is a major abdominal surgery that takes several weeks to recover from and carries a significant risk of infection. There's no way that a C-section is a reasonable alternative to the current late-term abortion techniques.

[DanCa]

6. I dont have a medical license

So I cant say or pretend to know all the conditions or situations that may occur during surgery. Again it's between a women and her surgeon. It's no one else's place.

[Fiona]

7. Then

if you should find yourself in such a situation, please avail yourself of a c-section.

As to what others do, it's not really any of your business.

[cynatnite]

8. Doctors will op for the less invasive and less dangerous procedure

C-sections are far more complicated and carry a lot of risks.

I'm curious what he has to back up that statement.

[Kagemusha]

9. This is where myth clashes with reality.

I'm not sure how to help you but, if you really believe that partial birth abortion is the killing of babies that are viable out of the womb and could be born with a C-section, and that this procedure is happening all over America with zero thought and zero conscience, then I suppose you can call what that guy's saying is "True".

The problem is that there's an ongoing dispute as to whether this "partial birth abortion" is a medical procedure invented in the minds of Congressmen and Senators or is in fact the "truth" about a medical procedure known by an actual medical name (Dilation & Extraction, or something like that).

You can either believe that the national statistics on this procedure is a lie and that abortion clinics are covering up vast abuse of it, or you can believe that Congress is simply listening to those who tell it what it wants to hear before legislating to deal with politically sensitive medical myth not medical reality.

[Lindacooks]

10. Fine. Then don't have one.

So you think it would be fine if a woman lost her ability to bear more children and suffered terrible health consequences, and the baby still dies after she goes through a horrific delivery? That's really okay with you??

It's not up to you to determined what's in the best interest of any woman or her body or her health. That's between her and her doctor - it's a privacy issue, PERIOD.

[blondeatlast]

12. There is no "partial birth abortion." As someone already said,

Google is your friend.

And GD is not a research facility. Think for yourself.

[kikiek]

13. The procedure is rare, and vast majority of cases are because the

baby is dying in the womb or has died and the woman's life is in danger. The problem with their attempts to "control" it is they aren't making any provisions for the life of the woman. I am of the belief if you don't believe in it don't do it. Don't even try to decide this for someone else.

[Eloriel]

19. Usually the women herself is very ill -- diabetic, for example

Or at least that's my understanding.

TWO things for sure in these cases (unless, of course, one chooses to believe the rightwing LIES about them, about women, about abortion, about abortion clinics, about those of us who support a woman's right to choose and her ability to make responsible decisions herself along with her doctors, and of course the lies about the DOCTORS):

1. The fetus is NOT viable (as you said, often already dead)

2. The mother's life and/or health are at extreme risk and a C-Section (a particularly invasive surgery) is an even worse option for her and her health/life.

[kikiek]

24. Frustrating isn't it.

[Canadiana]

14. Educate your self please

"Partial Birth Abortion" is right up there with "death tax". Simpy doesnt exist. Why don't you follow the right wing swill a little more.

I'm sorry, but this kind of ignorance makes me angry...partial birth abortion is not, and never will be a medical procedure. If, by chance, you are talking about late-term abortion, look that up and see what it entails. It's not interchangable with a frikin c-section...

[Kraklen]

15. If you knew anything about the issue...

I'd consider your opinion.

[cynatnite]

16. Why not help educate the OP?

It seems to serves a far better purpose.

[Canadiana]

17. I know, I know... that is what we should do...

But frankly, rjx could just have easily looked up what "partial birth abortion" is. Or isn't because it doesn't exist...but I digress...

Anyways, it's just so rediculous that he or she should google it, I am sure he or she will find an answer better and more thorough than I can provide anywyas.

[cynatnite]

18. Yeah, I agree

Google became my good friend since coming here to DU.

Anytime I hear anyone bringing up the subject I make a point of letting them know what it acutally is, why and how often it is used. Corporate media won't do it and I urge them to google to find out the truth.

[rjx]

21. Thanks for all the replies.

I believe in the right to choose. Which is why I was debating it.

The debate started in response to comments I had posted about John Robert's and his history.

Sorry for pissing people off with my lack of education on the subject. I appreciate those that replied with helpful comments.

I think for some of you it would have been easier to ignore my idiotic question than to flame me. Perhaps the people to get pissed at are the one's that named it partial birth abortion, and not late term.

Well at least I will never refer to it as "partial birth" ever again.

I appreciate the replies.

Thanks

[cynatnite]

25. Educate people who call it that

Tell them what it really is and how rare the procedure is. The more people who know the truth about it, the better.

[rjx]

31. I promise to do just that

As soon as I educate myself further, I will definitely stick it to those that are ignorant on the subject. For starters, I plan to really stick it to the person I was debating with.

I'm off to google.

Thanks!

[yellowdogintexas]

22. C-Section vs vaginal delivery is a decision often made in the

middle of the labor process due to circumstances that have developed at that time. It is often an emergent procedure, used when it is evident that the baby will either die, or be harmed by completing a vaginal delivery OR if the baby's position in the uterus is such that a vaginal delivery is impossible. Sometimes a CSec is decided upon because the mother's health suddenly crashes and the baby has to be gotten out of there NOW, so the mom can be saved.

Not to be confused with a PLANNED C section, which can occur for any number of reasons, often because the mother has had a previous CSection, or because it is quite evident this baby isn't going to stand on his/her head for anybody.

Late term abortions are performed when the baby is either dead already, not likely to survive, or otherwise severely unhealthy AND the procedure offers the best alternative to preserve the mother's life, health, and her future ability to have children. Physicians who will perform this procedure are few and far between, and it is generally recommended as a last resort.
A good example would be a baby with severe hydrocephalus, or water between the brain and the skull, causing the head to be considerably larger than it should be, accompanied by any number of other neural abnormalities, which would indicate the child might only live a few days at most. The mother can't deliver the child pelvicly with the enlarged skull; carrying the child to term could cause harm to her health, and general risk from a Csec is higher than that of ending the pregnancy. After a thorough review of the case and probably several ultrasounds and other tests, the doctor might recommend a dilation and evacuation. In this scenario, draining the cephalic fluids would simply allow the procedure to be completed.

I knew a woman whose baby was diagnosed at about 7 months term as aneural: no brain stem. It was the decision of the physician that it was in her best interest to end the pregnancy; she said it was an extremely difficult decision, but the recommendation was based on her health. She had the procedure; then she and her husband were able to spend time with the baby; all cleaned up and in a blanket and do some proper grieving. We were pregnant at the same time, then I did not see her for several years...our daughters would have just been weeks apart and I felt so sad, knowing she was there watching my 4 year old play and romp around and her baby would be there and they would be playing together, had she been healthy.

I do not think there is any condition or situation under which a late term abortion is recommended that could be solved equally by a C-Section; however, if decisions are postponed long enough and a situation becomes critical for the health of the mother, then emergency C Section might be the only option.

And contrary to what the anti choice crowd would have you believe, there are not very many hospitals that perform them and you can't just waltz into Planned Parenthood and demand one either. I think I read that maybe, just maybe about 1000 of this type procedure may occur annually. Out of how many million pregnancies?????

[cynatnite]

23. I don't remember the exact numbers...

But it is such a rare occurance that to even make this an issue is incredulous to me.

The name of it pissed me off because it was designed to inflame those who have little to no information. Before I understood it I pictured women almost to term walking into abortion clinics. Thankfully, I got a real good education about it from a doctor friend. He was enraged at how this procedure was being used for political gain when in fact it's so rare and heart-breaking for families.

[yellowdogintexas]

26. same here, and it just drives me up the wall!!! I had another friend

who needed an AB at around 20/21 weeks. We lived in Nashville, and the closest place that would do it was Louisville; so I took her there and she did all their tests, etc. What was supposed to happen was an herbal suppository would be inserted which would soften and dilate the cervix, allowing a D&E the next day. However, she did not meet the general health criteria as her blood pressure was way too high. So we did some more research and the next closest location was Atlanta, Georgia, where her ONLY option was a saline infusion abortion, which involves labor, etc. It took another 10 days to get that set up and accomplished.

This by the way was in 1982, and it was that difficult to get a 22 week procedure done, and her health was at risk.

Jeez, I don't know if I myself could ever have chosen to end a pregnancy, but I sure as hell don't want women who do to be forced to back alleys, and all that comes with that. Since the beginning of time, there have been desparate women who want to NOT be pregnant for any number of reasons; the situation will not disappear just because it isn't legal; it will only become worse.

[Ilsa]

30. HELLP syndrome and/or Pre-eclampsia might be one or two.

If the mother's platelets are bottoming out, she isn't going to do as well with a c-section, I bet. The extra bleeding might even cause her to go into DIC.

Hard choices, lots of "ifs" and decisions that are governed by statistics, I bet.

BTW, great answer, yellowdog.

[Hamlette]

27. partial birth abortion can ONLY be used when mother's life in danger

by definition.

Partial birth abortion is a late term abortion. Late term abortions can only be performed (per Roe v Wade) for the health of the mother.

It's the law.

The right is trying to confuse people with the dramatic phrase and by not explaining it can only be used when mother's health is in danger.

[dsc]

32. No it isn't

Roe says STATES MAY BAN ABORTIONS other than for the mother's health after 6 months. It doesn't say STATES MUST BAN ABORTIONS other than for the mother's health after 6 months. While there aren't many states which permit those abortions in other cases there are some. In most states the law does indeed do that but not in all and certainly not because Roe makes them do so. Under Roe a state could, though none do, permit abortion for any and all reasons up until birth. Roe only curtailed regulation of abortions in the other trimesters, it didn't require regulation of abortion at all.

[noiretextatique]

36. so., there is no need for legislative bans on late-term terminations

because there are already common sense medical standards regarding late-term terminations, namely:

the mother is at risk
and/or
the fetus isn't viable

given these existing safeguards, one wonders why the anti-choice movement is determined to put women's lives at risk, since there are no states where accepted medical standards are simply ignored...as if on a whim.

[noiretextatique]

28. good that you got educated in this thread...but

you started this thread with a pretty strong statement regarding your opinion of "partial birth abortion," which as you know now is a term that has no medical meaning...it is a political term.
if may say so: your post perfectly illustrates A BIG problem with this issue in america: lack of real knowledge on the subject because of the disinformation campaign by the anti-choice side. and really...a lack of knowledge about reproduction, pregancy, abortion and birth, in general.
i say this not to embarrass you, but rather to point out what those of us who support choice are up against.
something i've noticed in the abortion battles here at DU: those who do not support choice are often ill-informed, particularly about late-term abortions...or completely lacking in knowledge about abortion...except from anti-choice sources.
i am glad you had the opportunity to learn from this thread, but rw disinformation remains a huge problem regarding this issue.

[rjx]

29. I totally understand you're feelings

and I agree 100%

And from what I have learned in this thread alone, as a liberal I am disgusted that I fell for a conservative term. I just googled "partial birth abortion" and 735,000 matches popped up. Had I gone there first, I would probably have walked away still referring to them as partial birth, and not late term. Now when I search google for more info, I will already have a better understanding of the situation.

Thanks again for the help.

[noiretextatique]

33. no problem...i'm glad you got some good information

:hug: at least you're willing to learn, unlike some here...
the rw use of this term has been a very effective fundraising tool, as you know by all the hits you got on it. it's DISinformation at its finest...

here's a link i came across that i find useful when discussing this issue with folks like your friend:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pba1.htm
Description of the D&X Procedure:

These are generally called:
bullet "D&X" procedures, an abbreviation of "dilate and extract," or
bullet "Intact D&E," or
bullet "Intrauterine Cranial Decompression" procedures.

They are not abortions as defined within medical science. The term "abortion" means the termination of pregnancy before the fetus is viable. However, it does fall within the definition of "abortion" which is used by most of the public.

The term "Partial Birth Abortion" was recently created by pro-life groups when the procedure became actively discussed at a political and religious level. We will generally use the medical terms in this section.

[insane_cratic_gal]

34. Here is a link for you

http://www.acog.org/from_home/publications/press_releases/nr02-13-02.cfm

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) continues to oppose state or federal legislation known as so-called "partial birth abortion" bans. "Partial birth abortion" is a non-medical term apparently referring to a particular abortion procedure known as intact dilatation and extraction (intact D&X, or D&X), a rare variant of a more common midterm abortion procedure know as dilatation and evacuation (D&E).

In June 2000, the US Supreme Court struck down a Nebraska "partial birth abortion" law in the case of Stenberg v. Carhart, ruling that the law violated the US Constitution by (1) failing to provide any exception "for the preservation of the health of the mother," and (2) being so broadly written that it could prohibit other types of abortion procedures such as D&E, thereby "unduly burdening a women's ability to choose abortion itself."


Also note that 90 percent of all abortions are done in the first trimester

anything else is preformed as stated on the website. Mothers health or a fetus that has died while in the womb.

[LeftyMom]

35. A c-section is much riskier for the mother

and can impair her future ability to establish and maintain a pregnancy in addition to greatly reducing her chances of giving birth vaginally without major intervention in the future, thus risking the lives and health of future offspring.

Generally late term abortions are done on babies that can't survive outside the womb or when there is a great risk for the mother in childbirth. In either case there is no advantage and greater risk to the mother in removing the child via abdominal delivery rather than late term abortion.

[Technowitch]

37. Locking

Asked and answered, as RJX indicates in subsequent posts in the thread.

-Technowitch
DU Moderator