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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 08:23 PM
Original message
Bugliosi on "perjury" .....
Well, folks, it appears that within the next 24 hours, most DUers will be discussing perjury with our families, friends, coworkers, and neighbors. Because there will be an occassional mutant that spews forth a Sean Hannity-style, "But Clinton was guilty of perjury!", we must be prepared. Hence, I recommend Vincent Bugliosi's "The Betrayal of America."

In the book, which details "How the Supreme Court Undermined the Constitution and Chose our President" (surely worth re-reading tonight!), Bugliosi examines the two types of perjury. The first is known as "self-defensive" and the second as "criminal." But let's read from one of the best legal minds of our times!

"I say that the crime the Justices committed was not an actual crime since there was no specific law on the books prohibiting what they did. But with one Supreme Court Justice, the most important one, Chief Justice Rehnquist, he almost assuredly did commit an actual crime in 1986 in his confirmation hearings before the Senate for Chief Justice. The crime was perjury, and of the two basic types of perjury, Rehnquist's was the worst. Because the Nation article, and this book based thereon, makes the allegation that the five Supreme Court Justices are criminals, Rehnquist's crime of perjury, if true, becomes quite relevant. Before we discuss it, however, let's look at the first type of perjury and put it into the context of a criminal trial. The defendant, let's stipulate, did in fact commit the crime, but he takes the witness stand in front of the jury and denies under oath what he did. This form of self-defense, where no third party is hurt by it, is obviously anticipated and overlooked by prosecutors. We expect it. ....

"The above form of self-defensive perjury is precisely what took place in President Clinton's denial of having sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky. And that was in a civil case. Although Clinton's right-wing enemies struggled mightily in his impeachment hearing to come up with a precedent, they were unabled to come up with one single case ever of any man being prosecuted for perjury because of lying in a civil case about consensual sexual relations. Yet in divorce and child custody proceedings, for instance, this type of perjury has been committed hundreds of thousands of times throughout the years, and it's invariably overlooked. Though certainly not condoning or approving of these lies under oath, no prosecutor would ever dream of prosecuting such a case, and no prosecutor in America, to my knowledge, ever has. Trying to go after Clinton criminally for perjury in the Lewinsky case may have been unprecedented in American legal history. .... With Clinton, the monstrous, grotesque Ken Starr pursued Clinton's lie under oath not because it was relevant to any of the issues in the Paula Jones case, but simply to prove he had lied so he could destroy him. * .....

"The second and by far the most serious type of perjury is not where one is merely denying doing something, the commission of which would result in affirmative harm to him if disclosed, but where one lies under oath to further his own ends, particularly where in the process he is seriously hurting a third party, such as accusing an innocent person of a crime. That type of perjury, if proved, normally does result in a criminal prosecution. It's this second type of perjury that the strong weight of evidence shows Rehnquist committed."

( * - Bugliosi calls Starr "one of the most reprehensible public figures we've ever been exposed to in America," in a 1998 interview, and in his book "No Island of Sanity," pages 135-6. He shows that Starr was not pursuing justice, but something "much more like totalitarianism than the free society we all cherish." Remember that Judge Roberts was with Starr at this time.)

This passage, from pages 77-80 in Bugliosi's book, focuses on a number of areas that should be of concern to DUers. They include perjury, the Supreme Court, and the direction that jackals like Ken Starr and Judge Roberts want to take this country in.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bugliosi knows a thing or two about criminals...
Charles Manson and all that.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. He was a heck
of a prosecutor, though he will always be connected in the public's mind with the manson case. But separate from that, he is still an outstanding legal mind. When a fairly conservative guy like him finds the right-wing republicans toxic, and he can list the laws they violate, he's worth listening to.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. You bet...
I was happy to read about this. His legal mind has impressed me for a long time.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. "Seriously hurting a third party." It's the malicious intent they need to
Edited on Thu Jul-21-05 09:46 PM by blondeatlast
defend against.

We have the offense--they meant to HARM a covert agent and her family.

Watergate was just a break-in, remember.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. Bugliosi knows his stuff--must read.
:kick:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yep.
I had hoped more DUers would read this. There will be a test tomorrow, when folks we know will ask, "Hey, what exactly does this perjury business mean?"
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. kick and a nomination.
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Rosco T. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. Makred... I'm gonna need this tomorrow.... n/m
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. thanks, H2Oman
this is good info to have.
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ramblin_dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
10. Is something going to happen in the next 24 hrs,
something like an indictment?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Walt put a NYT article up.
When you read it, it becomes obvious that the grand jury has found an extensive amount of criminal behaviors in the Bush/Cheney administration. While the grand jury is scheduled to go until October, there have been a growing series of leaks that will take much of the focus that Bush hoped to deflect, and put it right back on the administration. The NYT article is very interesting.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. The "c" word isn't used, but.... Link to NYT:
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. The "c" word isn't used, but a euphemism for it is.
The New York Times refers to "an orchestrated scheme." That is a very telling phrase. The article is a must-read in order to get the context, though.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. "an orchestrated scheme"
indeed!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
11. Did I Miss It?
Is my brain fogged? Exactly how did Rehnquist commit perjury, what did he swear to that was false? And I think I will skip the test part, because obviously, I haven't done my homework.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. LBN is your friend, and it's not about Rehnquist. nt
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. Thanks For the Tip
Got it now.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Rehnquist did in 1986 .....
when he became the Top Gun on the Supreme Court. But, alas, that was the Reagan era, and government officials were rewarded for lying and stealing.

I used the quote from Vince B. because of the perjury discussion(s), and it seems to fit with the Roberts discussions, too.

The third reason I used it is because I'm very old and senile, and tend to lash out with meaningless quotes at this late hour.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Sorry But I Don't Consider Your Senility
a defense, though the courts might. (grin) But that discussion is for another day, months from now when all the miscreants have been exposed for their dastardly deeds and the conversation is lagging.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thanks
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
15. Affairs aren't a crime, treason is
Is that the gist?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
16. In fairness he is a bit off on this
He is right that they didn't produce a man who had been prosecuted but they did produce two women. One had sued for defamation (SI had called her a lesbian) and falsely denied having sex with a woman. The other had been sued by a patient for sexual harrassment and falsely denied having sex with the male patient.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. There was one case of a man, but
much like at least the second case you mention, there was clearly someone hurt by the lie. It was a paternity case. The first case you mention is likewise one where another party is harmed: suing for defamation sets that standard, I suspect.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
38. I Remember the Case with the Female Doctor
She was correctly found guilty of perjury. She was fired for having an affair with a patient that she denied and sued the hospital. Turned out in court she did have the affair and not only lost the case but was convicted of perjury.

In that case, the affair was not only material -- the entire case revolved around it. That's perjury. In Clinton's case, his denial of the Monica Lewinsky affair came up in the Paula Jones lawsuit, and was completely tangential ("Did you ever have sex with any of the following women: ....., Monica Lewinsky, .....")

In a legal sense, Clinton was found not to have lied. But even if he had been, the point was completely tangential to the case. The most that he could have been convicted of was a lesser charge, lying under oath, and the house managers could not manage to find a single solitary precedent for such a conviction despite the offense having been committed hundreds of thousands of times.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
19. Very informative. A great one-two punch with Walt's post
on the NYT article.

:thumbsup:
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
23. You know is it me or is everyone tired of the clinton blame game.
H2o man thanks for printing this. I guess personal responsibilt applies only to women?
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
26. I came across my copy
of Vince B's book in my moving cartons few weeks ago and 'wasted' some time re-reading some juicy passages. Thanks for the post.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. It's a fun book.
I wish that Gore had used him. History might be very different.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
27. Thanks for the background info, H20 man!
I need to take a big breath. I can feel my hopes rising!

Peace.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
28. A brilliant legal mind if ever there was one.
I was introduced to the sharp mind of Mr. Bugliosi with Till Death Us Do Part & Helter Skelter.

Think I'll grab The Betrayal of America.

Cheers

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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #28
37. One of his best was
"And the Sea Will Tell".
Great read.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. That is one
that I haven't read .... but perhaps I should.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. I'll send it to you if you want it
PM me your info.:)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. That's very nice of you.
I'm sure my normal brother has it. If he doesn't, I may take you up on your kind offer.
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brettdale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
29. kick
kick
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
30. Remember also that Clinton was never found guilty of even self-defensive
perjury. The Arkansas judge ordered a temporary suspension of his law license because, as a lawyer, he had the obligation to go beyond a technically true answer the the "sex" question and gone on to explain what actually went on.

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Freedomfried Donating Member (684 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
31. Read Helter Skelter
The Bugman has a beautiful mind!
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
33. Bush's motive was Helter Skelter too.
To start a race war with the Arab world by invading Iraq. And that is exactly what he and Tony did... I'd love to hear Vince Bugliosi opinions on the war in Iraq and the pack of lies that pushed the US into this mess. Also on the prisoner abuse.

I have the book "The Betrayal of America" and I read it again a couple of weeks ago!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Good point.
He thinks he is playing a divine role.
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Great observation. Sometimes I think I failed to see the
true extent (though not the true nature) of W's megalomania from his early days as governor of Texas. I was stunned when he beat Ann Richards; couldn't imagine how in the world even his family could help him enough to defeat her well oiled machine.

But honestly, the guy always seemed like such a total LIGHTWEIGHT!!

When he bought into ownership of my Rangers and soon after they came up with winning teams, even won their division in 96, I think it was (still have the tee shirt), I didn't believe it was any of W's decisions that brought about improvements. He just ain't no genius, and back in the early days no one seemed to try to say he was. It was like, we all knew he was a doofus at BEST, and a lot of us just prayed he would be content with baseball and stay the hell out of politics.

Even when there was early talk about the GOP settling on W as their pick for the 2000 nomination, I remember him saying to a few press stringers who had just begun to tag along with him, "If I win, okay. If I don't, {shrug and dopey grin}." I was encouraged. I thought the GOP would not dream of letting THAT guy represent their party in a presidential race. Boy was I fooled.

I just had no idea what grand designs they had for their idiot boy Bush... and what delusions of grandeur he himself must have had, even then.

I read Helter Skelter when it first came out, and couldn't put it down, read it late into the night to finish it. Then couldn't sleep. Left the lights on, got up with my partner when he rose to get ready for work -- even though it was 4 a.m.! I sat and drank coffee with him and talked about that book ... not the sort of thing you expect by a "legal writer."

What has stayed with me all these years is that he KNEW he could convict Manson even though never before in American legal history had anyone been convicted of murder when he was not even at the scene of the crime. Pure genius!

I'd love to read The Betrayal of America, hope I can get my hands on a copy.

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 06:12 AM
Response to Original message
35. Thanks for explaining the difference
I am sure this knowledge will come in handy in the days ahead.

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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
36. Kick.
:kick:
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