Big Story in the New york Times!

[Walt Starr]

The net has been cast far and wide.

For Two Aides in Leak Case, 2nd Issue Rises

http://nytimes.com/2005/07/22/politics/22leak.html?hp&ex=1122004800&en=da4770e9392bb1c6&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[Lex]

1. HOLY CRAP! "related underlying issue"

.

"WASHINGTON, July 21 - At the same time in July 2003 that a C.I.A. operative's identity was exposed, two key White House officials who talked to journalists about the officer were also working closely together on a related underlying issue: whether President Bush was correct in suggesting earlier that year that Iraq had been trying to acquire nuclear materials from Africa.

The two issues had become inextricably linked . . . "

[Lex]

8. Does anyone know if Fitzgerald can also investigate whether

the Admin intentionally lied about the Niger-uranium connection?

That is the underlying incident that led to the Plame's name being divulged.

[Jersey Devil]

13. He can if he wants to

His authority is to investigate the Plame leak and that should include all crimes that are related to it. If he wants to he can indict for any crimes he sees and then after indictments are handed up let the bastards fight them on the grounds that he exceeded his authority.

[shelley806]

14. This question was asked in a previous thread today; and it was

argued pro and con...I'd love to know the real answer.

[pacalo]

66. One fact that stays with me is that the judges who have read the

redacted pages of Fitzgerald's case all agree that the charges are substantial, enough so that they override a journalist's right to protect their sources.

I don't think perjury will be the only charge.

[shelley806]

75. From what I've read, I agree w/you...but this would still address the

same issue; i.e. the leaking of a covert CIA agent's name, and the consequences of that. If Fitzgerald could address the entire question of intent, then it may well lead to the uncovering of false motivations for the Iraq War, which would have much graver consequences...IMHO.

[pacalo]

115. I agree

& that's what I'm hoping those blacked-out pages touch upon.

[goclark]

122. How much longer before the indictments?

I can hardly sleep.

[H2O Man]

16. If he can find

a connection between the administration and the people who forged the Niger yellow cake documents. This appears to involve those caught up in the neocon spy scandal. There are not that many groups who share the same agenda, and have the same ability, as our friends in the Cheney administration.

[northzax]

101. he can investigate

but honestly, I don't see where a crime was committed, I don't think the words yellowcake or Niger were ever uttered under oath. And it is not a ciminal act to lie to the public when one is not under oath.

I don't think the State of the Union is considered sworn testimony, after all, it was already admitted that there was a mistake in that speech.

[Walt Starr]

102. Forgery

The documents were forgeries.

[northzax]

103. sure, but you'd have real trouble making that stick

you'd have to prove that anyone who used the docuemnts in an official capacity knew they were forgeries. And since I don't believe they were ever used in a legal manner, forgery laws wouldn't apply. Nor would fraud.

[Walt Starr]

106. If connected to the same group who outted Plame

there would be some definite charges.

The connection is the only way there would be any charges, though.

[northzax]

108. how can you tie forgery

to the plame matter? that's incredibly tenuous at best. I could see it as evidence in a RICO case, but not a direct crime in and of itself. Truthfully, it seems likely that the documents were forged outside the United States, by non-US actors who knew what the administration wanted to hear.

if the use of forged documents for any purpose was a crime, Dan Rather would be in jail.

[Walt Starr]

113. The two are inextricably linked

Read the arcticle in the original link.

[Brotherjohn]

107. Lying to Congress. A felony.

Testimony seeking approval of the IWR, 2003 SOTU... take your pick.

[northzax]

110. find me a line

from any one of those speeches that directly references the yellowcake-Niger connection. The administration has already admitted the SOTU was wrong, if that's perjury, Bush would be in jail. I don't believe that SOTU is considered to be 'testimony'. Any other officer testifying to Congress would have to be shown that he/she knew what they were saying was false. Telling information that you believe to be true, that later turns out to be false is not lying to Congress, if you did it in good faith.

It's like I don't think Scott McLellan lied to the press when he said Rove wasn't involved. I think that's what he was told, so he passed it on. The misinformation lies somewhere else.

now, an interesting question would be, if you deliberatly provide false information to someone who then uses it under oath, are you in trouble? I don't think so.

[Brotherjohn]

112. You're right about the specific lie in the SOTU. I think there's more...

.. blatant lying by admin officials re the IWR, but I don't have the testimony handy (I think some is even still secret).

The WH, in fact, specifically crafted the line of the SOTU to be technically correct, while knowing it had problems. The WP, I think, published a story on this way back... on the back and forth between the WH... now-NSA Hadley, I think... and the CIA.

So it was "technically" accurate (but intentionally misleading).

But I have a hard time believing something in the congressional testimony, by those in positions to know, would not pass muster as perjury.

[BR_Parkway]

114. But it's Constitutionally mandated for the Pres to do, so there is a

legal foundation for him to give this information. Lying during that would surely be illegal somehow (but I'm no lawyer).

The other side of that is the Martha Stewart law - until this all comes out, we don't know what questions Fitz has asked of whom, including Cheney and the Chimp. But lying to a Fed prosecutor conducting an investigation certainly got Martha a few months.

[Stephanie]

23. That means Fitz is after the forged document

Don't you think? The SISME document, that might have originated with the neocons via Chalabi.

[Lex]

82. This is what I've been wondering . . .

that Fitzgerald thinks that the forged document might've emanated from these sleazebags: Rove, Fleisher, Hughes, Libby, etc.

Not that I think they did it personally, but put someone up to it.

[Brotherjohn]

109. TPM points out that there are 2 likely souces from which Rove & Libby...

... could have learned of Plame's covert status (given the fact that both Cooper and Russert have denied that they were the sources of the info, which conflicts with Rove and Libby's accounts).

1) Ari Fleischer, who was allegedly seen reading the memo marking the paragraph re Plame as "S" for "Secret".

2) The fact that the two were working back and forth with Tenet and Hadley on background for the Niger claim, in preparing drafts of Tenet's "fall-on-his-sword" statement.

The second possibility seems to me to give Fitzgerald a direct "IN" to the investigation of false claims about the Niger-Iraq-Uranium.

Although the very fact that the subject is linked at all, I think, gives him the impetus to investigate. As I pointed out in another post here, this particular lie was told to Congress by the administration in both the 2003 SOTU and testimony to garner support for the IWR.

Lying to Congress is a felony.

[Coexist]

2. and what was our homework assignment today, Mr. Starr?!

<snip>
"In another indication of how wide a net investigators have cast in the case, Karen Hughes, a former top communications aide to Mr. Bush, and Robert Joseph, who was then the National Security Council's weapons proliferation expert, have both told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that they were interviewed by the special prosecutor.

Ms. Hughes is to have her confirmation hearing on Friday on her nomination to lead the State Department's public diplomacy operation. Mr. Joseph was recently confirmed as undersecretary of state for arms control and international security. As part of their confirmation proceedings, both had to fill out a questionnaire listing any legal matters they had become involved in."

Let's hope she gets asked! Several times until she answers - then the trap gets sprung later - because she WILL NOT tell the truth tomorrow.

[Walt Starr]

4. Yup, I noticed

:evilgrin:

[Jersey Devil]

15. I sure hope they fry her ass tomorrow

This should be good!

[Coexist]

17. me too

and I don't have to work, so I can watch it!

[fooj]

83. Am I dreaming?

:evilgrin:

[Zorra]

18. Hughes should not be confirmed until it is determined if she ratted out

a covert CIA agent or not.

[Coexist]

or lied about knowing who did, or if she was party to conversations

about it.

[OzarkDem]

76. Not likely

Most of our Dems in Congress don't have the stomach for that kind of thing.

[Stephanie]

3. This is code for 'a source at the WH' >

"Those people who have been briefed requested anonymity because prosecutors have asked them not to discuss matters under investigation."

That is pure Scotty Mac.

[Stephanie]

6. It sounds like Rove & Libby conspired to make Tenet take the fall

Right? They decided what Tenet should say and made him take one for the team?

[Stephanie]

7. Holy crap! They are saying Rove was determining national security policy

doing it on political motives - they employed the natl sec apparatus as a campaign tool in the permanent campaign:

"The effort was particularly striking because to an unusual degree, the circle of administration officials involved included those from the White House's political and national security operations, which are often separately run. Both arms were drawn into the effort to defend the administration during the period. "

[H2O Man]

19. Yes, they are.

I think that both Hardball and Countdown (with Wilson!) will be worth watching tomorrow night. I expect there may be a little more then!

[Octafish]

29. If they call Turd Blossom "Bush's Brain"...

What do they call Turd Blossom's "Body?"

Bush.

The whole Monkey House is BUSTED.

[Octafish]

24. That must be why Tenet resigned in the middle of the night.

The guy knew what was coming and got the heck as far away from the scene of the crime as he could, as quickly as possible.

June 2004 timeframe. Poor bastard. He's probably going to still go down with Cheney and Bush and the rest of the treasonous neocon horde.

[Stephanie]

26. They made him take the hit.

Everyone knew that was fishy. It was like a mafia hit.

[Octafish]

32. ...And you don't bump off a made guy without permission from the Families.

...otherwise there'll be trouble like the fellah Joe Pesci played in that movie.

[SlowDownFast]

67. Tenet didn't HAVE to take the hit...

he coulda had some scruples and done the real patriotic thing: told the truth about what was happening.

OTOH, IF he has been actively working to right the wrongs, as we speak,
ie: working covertly with others in the Company to bring the whole house of cards down in order to save America, all is forgiven...

I cannot understand, though, how a Director of the CIA could possibly be intimidated by these thugs, insofar as lying for them and taking the heat...

[H2O Man]

27. Probably.

But we do know that he called Hadley, and sent two memos that said the Niger business was not anything the CIA could back, because the investigation(s) showed it to be flawed.

This is getting interesting, eh?

[Octafish]

38. Now THESE are interesting times.

Scooter ties straight on through to Sneer. And Sneer helped Pakistan get their nukes in order.

Cheney gave the OK to, in the name of the BFEE:

1. BCCI funding for development of Pakistan Nuke Program
2. Khan Nuc-u-lar Nutwork spread of weapons to N Korea, Iran.
3. Destruction of Plame Brewster-Jennings & Assoc spy network working to control spread of WMD.

Gee. We might live through this madministration yet.

[Stephanie]

39. I want to do a website that is just you and H20Man discussing this

A two-hander blog. What do you think?

[H2O Man]

42. Great idea.

Maybe MSNBC will give the two of us a show. Could we slap republican guests who lie?

[Stephanie]

45. On my show you can slap them silly

I give you permission to pound them.

[Octafish]

63. Let's take turns!

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/video.asp

[Octafish]

47. You're a pal, Stephanie!

I dunno. I'm all thumbs when it comes to web work.



Still, it would be great to post all the links, articles, evidence, associations, circumstances and guesses connecting these turds to treason. Even better to do so with you, Waterman and the DU crew who give a damn. Heck ya.

Why don't we start with a thread or two discussing Plame, Cheney, Chimpageddon and the rest of their insane and satanic works? Once we get a bunch of resources on one aspect, we move to the next -- whatever historic, current or future conditions require.

[snot]

92. SERIOUSLY.

I'd love to see something like a daily blog in which you two summarize and analyze your picks of the top news o' the day from DU.

Even better if it's on a video clip under 15 min. and you're kinda cute.

You could be the Siskel and Ebert of progressive politics.

[Octafish]

99. I'm shaped like Ebert.

With a head that resembles Edna Boil from SCTV...



...except I need a shave.

In all seriousness: Thank you for the kind words. You have no idea how much they are appreciated.

Most important: A hearty, if somewhat belated, welcome to DU, snot.

[H2O Man]

105. I'll have to do

a sit-up to get into shape for any public appearance.

[Stephanie]

111. It will be a blog

A virtual appearance. This is what we should do with www.traitorgate.com - we just need someone who knows who to build a site - or we could do it on blogspot and just redirect the URL over there. It would be great to see just a dialogue between you two on this.

[H2O Man]

118. Thank goodness.

I told my 18-year old son I was anticipating doing a sit-up. He said I should consider doing two crunches -- Nestles and Captain -- which is likely a better plan for me.

[ocean girl]

120. Stephanie - I agree

H20 Man and Octafish are my favorite master teachers.

Maybe we can get them a show on Al Gore's new TV network. Or how about Air America?

Thanks, guys!

[snot]

121. LoL! thanks! nt

[Pobeka]

51. I'll help.

I'm not a great graphic designer, but I can manage data well, and I can merge data well. So if you have lots of statements, urls, photos, etc. that need to be organized and plopped in a web format, give me a PM.

[me b zola]

85. I am hoping that they and MinstrelBoy write a book(s)

The real history of the 20th & early 21st centuries.

History needs to be told accurately, and our guys are the ones to do it. :toast:

[Kool Kitty]

77. Didn't Ari resign about this time, too?

Hmmm....

[goclark]

117. Time for Powell to step up and be the John Dean ( but he won't)

Too scared.


But somebody must step up. After the CIA Hearing the horse is out the barn door!

[bettyellen]

28. that's what it sounds like to me, omigod

and there's yellowcake mentioned, the whole state of the union adress, it looks like it's really winding back to the DSM, finally.
yellowcake. woooo hooo

[FreedomAngel82]

69. Maybe that is why Tenet

got that medal. Eh? All for a public display and then if he did get the fall taken he couldn't squeal to people they set him up because Bush would just come back and say he was a great public servant and they honored him and all that nonsense.

[jim3775]

5. What the hell is this?

" People who have been briefed on the case discussed the critical time period and the events surrounding it to demonstrate that Mr. Rove and Mr. Libby were not involved in an orchestrated scheme to discredit Mr. Wilson or disclose his the undercover status of his wife, Valerie Wilson, but were intent on clarifying the use of intelligence in the president's address. Those people who have been briefed requested anonymity because prosecutors have asked them not to discuss matters under investigation."

Let me guess, more shit from rove's lawyer.

[Stephanie]

25. Yes it is - the article has quotes from both sides.

But the reporter just tipped us off to who this one comes from. The clue is, "Those people who have been briefed requested anonymity because prosecutors have asked them not to discuss matters under investigation." What does Scott McClellan say to every single question?

[jim3775]

34. Scotty says: "There is an ongoing investigation and the president...

doesn't want to prejudice that investigation"


I guarantee you that the quote is from rove's laywer "on background".

Edit:Then again I found this:

"MR. McCLELLAN: Well, and there were preferences expressed by those overseeing the investigation that we refrain from commenting on it while they're continuing to look at -- investigate it."

Maybe I'm wrong.

[Stephanie]

37. sure, maybe it's rove's lawyer - they're all on the same talking points

i'm just saying it's someone from BushCO being quoted, using the talking points. But the article quotes anonymous sources from both sides.

[bettyellen]

31. smells like it's coming from the whitehouse....

"prosecutors have asked them not to discuss matters under investigation."

[Ugnmoose]

9. Times is a day late and a dollar short on this one

They have already been outscooped by Wa Po and Bloomberg as well as some bloggers. Also, if you read the article closely it is still trying to give credence to Rove and Libby for their alibi.

[KoKo]

22. Yep....Doug Jehl one of the reporters is always favoring the WH.

There's always a line or two put in their articlesthat explains away anything damaging to the Bushies. Plus with Miller out of commission they either have to defend her or continue her lies.. :shrug:

[Jersey Devil]

10. I am getting too excited!

Someone told me
It’s all happening at the zoo.

I do believe it,
I do believe it’s true.

It’s a light and tumble journey
From the east side to the park;
Just a fine and fancy ramble
To the zoo.

But you can take the crosstown bus
If it’s raining or it’s cold,
And the animals will love it
If you do.

Somethin’ tells me
It’s all happening at the zoo.

The monkeys stand for honesty,
Giraffes are insincere,
And the elephants are kindly but
They’re dumb.
Orangutans are skeptical
Of changes in their cages,
And the zookeeper is very fond of rum.

Zebras are reactionaries,
Antelopes are missionaries,
Pigeons plot in secrecy,
And hamsters turn on frequently.
What a gas! you gotta come and see
At the zoo.

[bleever]

33. I couldn't find the words. This works for me.

:)

[bleever]

36. SO many bombs here! They WROTE Tenet's speech??

Rove driving national security on political grounds??

Wow.

What's lamer than a lame duck?

[Stephanie]

40. Yeah! They told Tenet what to say and then they kicked his ass to the curb

Or else he got the hell out of Dodge - wonder which?

[bleever]

43. He got out when they wanted him out.

And Powell was likely in the same boat.


Damn, that Three Stooges graphic had it right: Powell was Shemp, the last guy to get slapped, with no one to slap back.




And to think at first I wasn't sure if that was fair to Powell. Alas: too fair, too fair.

[Al-CIAda]

59. A sitting duck? n/t

[bleever]

116. LOL. Give the man a cigar. n/t

[Gloria]

68. HA HA--Simon & Garfunkel got it wrong, though--with Chimpy,

monkeys do NOT "stand for honesty"!!! LOL

[jazzjunkysue]

11. Thank you, Santa. It's perfect!

Finally got my christmas present: Reporters acting like reporters and reporting.

Halleluia!:toast::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast:
:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

[Stephanie]

12. They interviewed Karen Hughes! That's WHIG.

Oh this is getting soooo-oooo good!!!

[Pithy Cherub]

21. Even Better - It's the NSC!

That's where this all connects back to Bush ;) Bush is the principal chair/client, Rice the advisor, Cheney a prinicpal, Tenet a principal, Rumsfeld a principal, and Powell a principal. One of the above authorized the WHIG of which the Chief of Staff chaired.

Then the underlings got together both political and secrity council to work together to ride out the crisis. Who was the adult supervision from the NSC of WHIG?

This is getting beyond redemption and will be a farce before it is all over. America loses its honor because they fixed intel to make false claims that were covered up by more false claims and then pointed fingers at everyone else. Irony at its finest.

:popcorn:

[Stephanie]

41. Who was it?

Who was the adult supervision of WHIG? I will guess Cheney.

[Pithy Cherub]

48. Since they used WH as part of the name,

I believe we are down to three choices:
Bush
Cheney
Rice
Who will step up to the plate and be that NSC adult sponsoring WHIG?

Oh, is this going to get interesting because this places "the conspiracy, obstruction of justice, perjury, traitor Party" squarely at 1600...

[Stephanie]

56. DICK

I will bet you anything. Georgie doesn't have the energy for that kind of work. He's mean enough, but too lazy.

[Pithy Cherub]

62. LOL! Taking that bet would require me to check my brain as luggage.

No way, Darth has definitely been under the weather lately.

It may be the lies are taking a toll on a whole bunch of folks who never even imagined this would happen when they picked Fitzgerald as Special Prosecutor.

:popcorn: Can't wait to look forward to watching the news again...

[Octafish]

20. These TRAITORS are BUSTED!

The same sick fucks who make money off war, too.

Gee. I hope that's not tinfoil hat stuff.

[Stephanie]

35. I almost believe it! Can it be true?

I swear to God, in August 2003 I was in a bar with friends after a show and I was blabbing on and on about Plame and Wilson and Novak and Rove and I actually wagged my finger in their faces and said, I swear to God, "Mark My Words. We will see indictments!" LOL! I am going to call them all up tomorrow. If terraists don't blow up our subway first.

[H2O Man]

44. This just feels

like the Nixon era. These aren't the kind of days that are good for an administration hoping to hide their crimes in the shadows.

[Octafish]

54. What name ties Nixon to the present day?

Bush. The same name ties in bunch of other treasons, like:

-- Continuing to arm theNAZIs after Germany declared war on USA

-- Building up the Soviet threat during the Cold War to enrich their corporate masters

-- Killing JFK in order to have a war a go-go in Vietnam.

It's the same family name that turns up time and again: Bush. And you know they're just fronting for other big names.

So these days too seem familiar. For the Bush Transnational Criminal Enterprise, endangering the national security of the United States is just business as usual.

There's one thing different this time, though. Perhaps there are enough good people are in contact to do something about it.

[wli]

89. Cheney and Rummy were floating around the Nixon WH

The faces haven't even changed, apart from Nixon himself.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

55. How so?

I'm too young to know what the feel was back then. Are you referring to the scent of perjury that is in the air?

[H2O Man]

65. Yeah, that and more.

It was a strange time. Even when Nixon's administration was obviously tied to a serious scandal, the vast majority of people thought he'd get through it. (Nixon was a "survivor" -- I don't mean that as a compliment, just an accurate description.) I think other "older" DUers will confirm that Bob Haldeman was a tough SOB, and everybody in Washington DC was intimidated by him. McGovern knew the deal in 1972, but he got less traction with Watergate than Conyers is getting now .... and he was a presidential candidate!

A few people will remember that there were leaks about suspected criminal behavior before "Deep Throat." TIME had a leak about Henry Kissinger's tapings. (Almost definitely Felt.) But they had control ... Nixon was thrashing the US Constitution, much in the manner that Bush is. (Octafish & I discussed Tom Charles Huston a couple weeks ago; he was advocating a "Patriot Act" type of intel agency to be run out of the White House, exactly like Cheney has been setting up.)

So there was a real concern that an Imperial President would destroy the separation of powers then, as today. And those who saw the possibility of Watergate bringing Nixon down almost didn't dare say it out loud for some time. (In Woodward's new book, it's revealed he and Bernstein realized it one day at work: Nixon WILL be impeached! It was so intense, they agreed to never tell anyone they knew what was actually going to happen.)

Then. it seemed to pick up intensity. Nixon attempted to gain control. Believe it or not, he told Gray to "let Watergate hang out" at his confirmation hearings for FBI director! Gray introduced America to a young fellow named John Dean. Once Dean was a public figure, the tide was turned in a way Nixon couldn't control. Dean talked, and everyone turned against everyone!

Dang! I shouldn't ramble on here. But I hope that what I said makes sense .... and I'd recommend reading some of the better books on that era today.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

79. Very informative.

Thank you for taking the time to reply in such depth. You outline the parallel feelings quite succinctly.

I just obtained a copy of "Watergate" by Fred Emery, which I'm about to read. I was told it was a good starting point book on the actual evidence and time-line.

[H2O Man]

95. Top notch book!

I just read it a week or two ago. Fantastic book. Do me a favor: read the parts about McCord while considering the possibility that his goal was to bring Nixon down. Emery points out a good dozen "warning signs" that people like Liddy had, but over-looked, because they assumed he was helping them.

Let me know what you think of it. I'd give the book an A+.

[Stephanie]

80. What do you mean about Kissinger & Felt?

My dad always thought Deep Throat was Kissinger. What Kissinger tapings?

[H2O Man]

94. Between May of 1969

and May of 1970, Kissinger was "in charge" of having a total of 17 White House aides and journalists' phones tapped (and taped)! These events would become some of the most controversial in the whole grand scheme of Watergate. Someone tipped off TIME magazine very early, but this was when the Nixon White House seemed too powerful to take on.

Kissinger was on a lot of people's "short list" for suspects, including those who believed that Deep Throat was a composite. The early leak to TIME certainly would have made it necessary that the character be a composite were Kissinger part of it ..... because those taps were one of the ugliest things that Henry did on the domestic scene.

Henery was one of the people who came to hold Nixon largely in contempt, when the alcohol abuse and mood swings created a very unstable president. He under-cut him in some fairly public ways, in regard to negotiations with North Vietnam. That was in large part because Henry wanted to get full recognition for everything he did, and he saw Nixon as inferior in regard to foreign affairs. He felt he was co-president. All of these would be reasons that your father would have viewed Kissinger as a likely suspect!

[Ioo]

30. Umm WOW!

All I can say is, WOW, the Administration must be shitting it self, it is coming apart on them.

[kentuck]

46. Libby was working with Rove and Hadley was consulting with Tenet ?

Rove = Bush, Libby = Cheney, and Hadley = Tenet....

The right hand men of the people making the decisions. It appears more and more that Tenet was forced out. The Medal of Freedom was just a cover to make it all look legit. Is it Tenet that is now spilling the beans on all his former friends?

[H2O Man]

49. We know that after

Wilson's article, Tenet tried to take the blame. But it came out that he had called and sent two memos to Hadley, saying the yellow cake claim was weak at best. Hadley appears to be the one who removed the information from fall '02, where Bolton attempted to put it in a State Department paper. However, it was then re-inserted in the State of the Onion speech. Hadley then took responsibility, when it was shown he had the knowledge that the Niger bit was bullshit. Hadley, of course, leads directly to Rice. Full circle.

[Stephanie]

52. What is Hadley's position exactly? He is a CIA/WH liaison?

He is Tenet's #2? What's his title?

[maryallen]

64. Hadley was Condi's #1 aide...

Deputy National Security Adviser to the President ... or something like that.

[Stephanie]

50. We always kind of thought he might

If they forced him to lie and then forced him out he might take great pleasure in assisting in their undoing. T

[kentuck]

53. And they say Ari never read the memo ??

But his logs show thatNovak called him the next day after Wilson's article in the NYTimes?? Hadley was consulting with Tenet, they say. So, Hadley was the one passing the information from Rove and Libby. Rove and Libby were getting their info from Bush and Cheney. That seems to be the way the chain of command was working....?

[Stephanie]

58. please repeat that - say it for me slowly

I'm still not clear on Hadley - he is Rice's asst?

[H2O Man]

70. He was

her top assistant. He was, in many ways, the person that VP Cheney had to run things behind the scenes. He's an odd fellow.

[dooner]

71. On MSNBC just now, they said Ari read the memo on AF 1

It was said during the last part of Hardball with Chris Matthews.
They said Ari was seen reading the memo on AF1.

That was the first I had heard of Ari reading the memo.

[Stephanie]

73. you're saying Bush&Cheney passed info to Rove&Libby who passed to Hadley?

Who took it to Tenet?

[Pithy Cherub]

57. Hadley = Rice Strictly a WH op.

he was her proxy not Tenet's. The CIA management team started resigning en masse after Tenet's resignation and Goss's appointment.

[Athame]

84. Could this have anything to do with

the change in status of the DCI after Tenet left? Goss would agree to be on the outside, on-call basis, so that the CIA would not have access to maneuverings on this case. Also the big purge of the CIA when Goss took over, shutting out those involved from opportunities to contradict the White House on the "failure of intelligence."

[H2O Man]

98. Yes.

Good point.

[Halliburton]

60. Ladies and Gentlemen..

We got him!

[me b zola]

87. THEM

We got THEM.

Sounds like the net has been cast over the whole dirty bunch of 'em.

[Trajan]

61. Regarding: 'Not Orchestrating' ....

The work done by Mr. Rove and Mr. Libby on the Tenet statement during this intense period has not been previously disclosed. People who have been briefed on the case discussed this critical time period and the events surrounding it to demonstrate that Mr. Rove and Mr. Libby were not involved in an orchestrated scheme to discredit Mr. Wilson or disclose the undercover status of his wife, Valerie Wilson, but were intent on clarifying the use of intelligence in the president's address. Those people who have been briefed requested anonymity because prosecutors have asked them not to discuss matters under investigation.


Frankly this amounts to a 'I didnt steal the twinkies because I was hungry' defense. Their zeal in defending their own false claims forced them to ATTACK the messenger, because they couldnt attack the message.

Wilson was right; they couldnt refute him .... So ? ... like good republicans > They ATTACK ......

They 'orchestrated' an ATTACK on the Wilsons, using the exposure of secret classified information to form their polemic .....

Despicable .....

[blondeatlast]

72. Orchestrated an attack=conspiracy; and that is what Fitzgerald

is thinking.

[H2O Man]

74. It's important to remember

to ask who is doing the leaking? Someone attempting to help Fitzgerald? Or someone trying to help their client?

I think that what is coming out may be a feeble attempt to help the Pilsbury Dough Boy of the White House. His attorney has been the most active "undisclosed source" in the entire investigation. I think he may be trying to spread the responsibility to the VP's office.

[SlowDownFast]

90. Wow. Very interesting theory.

When faced with a laser beam of inevitable scrutiny, refract the beam to allow a wider band of focus on the situation...

Perhaps the attorney is preparing for a way out ala "Look! There's bigger fish to fry!"...

TurdBlossom is such a backstabber and coward, I really wouldn't put this past him at all...

after all, that's what he does best...

[LeftHander]

78. Just the beginning...

For ROve and the White House we always knew thier arrogance would be thier undoing...

And this is just the start of the unravelling of the Bush Presidency. The corruption and lies were eventually going to take hold of them and control them...rather than them controlling the lies.

The press is not letting up. The chink in the armour has been found and like the the piece of sytrofoam insulation that ultimately brought the shuttle to disaster so to will a few simple lies uncover the rotten core of Bush and company....a core WE ALWAYS KNEW was there...

[ultraist]

81. Keep on rockin' in the free world!

"The press is not letting up."

[SlowDownFast]

91. excellent analogy.

rotton to the core...

and when running a crooked infrastructure such as the size they have, sooner or later...

[fooj]

86. My stomach hurts! This is wild!

:eyes:

[brettdale]

88. kick

kick

[DanCa]

93. Thank you all for connecting the dots

It's a brilliant piece of sluething. Now the question is what will happen after these gangsters are jailled?

[Walt Starr]

96. Man, this thread took off after I went to bed!

For everybody who contirbuted!

:thmbsup:

Great analysis, folks!

[H2O Man]

97. A reminder:

Joseph Wilson will be on Countdown tonight on MSNBC. As we watch it, we should keep in mind that Karl, Dick, and Scooter are watching it to. Do you think they will realize they fucked with the wrong guy?

[Walt Starr]

100. Rove, Libby,. Cheney, and Bush all considered themselves above the law

so of course they misunderestimated (sic) the spooks.

[H2O Man]

104. Many, many years ago

I was boxing on an "undercard' in Albany, NY. This was an amateur card. There was a mean and ugly looking guy who was about my size, and I remember saying to my brother that he looked like a tough guy. My brother said naw, he had a scarred face because he wasn't tough, and that he'd be an easy fight. He said it's the guys who don't look tough who surprise you.

The mean and ugly looking guy got flattened by a clean cut looking kid that night. (grin) I always remember that. I don't think guys like Rove or Bush ever got into fights as kids, or young men. So they never learned that little lesson!

[mcscajun]

119. Is this, at long last, the scandal that WON'T go away?

Please, pretty please, oh Universe?