Serious discussion

[hyphenate]

I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything with this question, nor do I not have answers of my own to it. I am, curious, to see what logic can be given in the answers, and I hope that people approach it as a discussion to simply look at something from the bigger perspective, and how people look at the subject instead of just saying something along the line of "because we say so, that's why!"

As we all know, since September 11, 2001, the United States has been scared into a sense of insecurity which has permeated our entire existence. It is because of that insecurity that members of this deranged administration have been able to get away with many things which, 10 years ago, would never have been possible.

We know, too, that as a result, the Patriot Act was rushed into agreement, and people who were of Middle Eastern heritage (mostly, anyhow) were arrested and sent to the U.S. version of the Gulag, without trials, without the assistance of attorneys and without any way to prove their innocence, or lack thereof. We also know that the Patriot Act has been soundly abused by many members of the intelligence agencies, and that this administration has managed to pull one over on the American people, slowly eroding our civil liberties in the guise of "protecting us."

In 90% of the rest of the world, people do not and never have been able to enjoy the same sort of liberties that we do. Unless you're discussing old world Europe, there is little in the way of freedom as we have always defined it. We have always been able to say whatever we want to, pretty much do whatever we want to, and enjoy these abilities.

Of our founding fathers, we know that their goal was to create a rarified atmosphere of total freedom to pursue whatever dreams, desires and goals we chose. That meant that everyone had the same base to start with: an education for all, and that ability to make our own choices and do whatever we wanted to do. Even Benjamin Franklin said: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

So what is it? With these troubling times, are most people really eager to give up the rights we have had so long just to be considered more "safe?" Do we overturn the words of our founding fathers so that security is suddenly more important that our ability to enjoy true freedom?

Stop for a moment and think about others, not your own choices. If you're here at DU, you are most likely willing to forgo "security" for that neverending right to personal freedom. But think for a moment about the average American. Not even those who profess to be conservatives, but those who live in "Anytown USA." What do you think their answer would be? Do you see them looking at their children, their parents, their spouses and thinking, "How can I protect my family in these troubled times?" Do you see THEM forgoing their civil liberties in exchange for the chance to know that our government is going into other countries, playing the bully and telling these other "suspect" countries not to play around with the USA or "else" they will be destroyed? Do you think that the average Joe is going to feel more comfortable living with the image of the USA as the world's bully?

Those who are more politically savvy know damned well that the bully act is simply and purely arrogance, and was never intended as a measure to secure our country. We know, for example, that the administration is preying on hapless nations who never really harmed the US. We know for example that the countries we are attacking have some significance to the wealthier people in our country, and that is a prime reason for our being there. But your average Joe doesn't know this. He listens only to the MSM and has no reason to collect his news views from more diverse sources. He believes what the MSM tells him because he would not understand why they would lie.

What it ends up being, however, is that the people in our country, those who are not as astutely aware of the truth and the lies, are willing to give up some measures of freedom in that devil's bargain--"give me security, and I will honor the American contract."

It's only natural, isn't it? That people want first to protect their families? And isn't it the image of the average man to be the guardian of his family? So doesn't it seem like now he figures that he's not an evil person, and the government only goes after the bad guys, so why should he worry? And well, to him, we have more freedoms than we will ever use, so it doesn't really matter if we have to give something up just to preserve the trust between government and his family.

These are the people we must reach. These are the people who need to be shown, in some way, that the government isn't really on their side, and eroding our liberties could condemn us all. So what needs to be done? How many actually have had moments when they've felt that way themselves? It's not hard to think that way, and it's not really shameful to want to protect families, but the thinking man knows that there must be another answer. The world has significantly changed in the past three hundred years+, but has it changed so much that the ideals of the founding fathers are no longer of significance?

WDYT?

[The Jacobin]

1. I'm sure there's a name for it.

There is something economists have noticed about how people answer questions about how the economy is doing. If there is bad news about the economy in the media, people will answer that the economy overall is doing poorly. When asked how to desctibe their individual financial situation, many of those same people will answer they are doing well. (or vice versa).

I wonder if this is the same? Since shrub has trained the lapdog media to chase their tails and bark furiously about terrorism, I think many people think they are supposed to answer that they are afraid or worried. In everyday life, I think most people don't worry about it.

[many a good man]

14. Peter Hart focus groups

I watched several focus groups during the campaign on C-SPAN. The average participant seemed have barely a glancing knowledge of the issues at hand and seemed to be only very casual observers of the corporate news.

When asked their opinion on issues, their responses fascinated me. Their responses were often framed in the manner "here's my opinion. Is that right?" It seemed like they were schoolchildren reviewing for a test. They had little confidence in their knowledge so their answers were framed almost like questions. Sort of like as if they wanted to know if they had comprehended the news spin correctly. They wanted to know if they gave the correct answer. "Is this the answer I'm supposed to give?"

I think what we see here is a kind of embarassment or shame that they don't really understand what is going on. They haven't been doing their homework but need to fake it. Kind of like "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" -- they have absolutely no f*ing clue but they'll accept whatever answer the majority of audience gives.

Are Democrats weak on national security? The answer is supposed to be Yes.

Our country is the most advanced capitalist nation and thus has the most highly developed state of advertising and public relations. I think we are seeing the consequences of the successful use of marketing psychology on the population. Politics is only one small niche in the huge marketplace of entertainments. People are influenced by the exact same devices used to sell shampoo or SUVs.

But our attention spans are very short. Marketing can never rest.

[hyphenate]

18. I think one of the major problems is that there is an

information overload. We have prided ourselves on the major leaps we have made since the beginning of the 20th century, never quite comprehending how we would be able to handle that amount of information. Some have assumed it would be some sort of "osmosis" without thinking in a logical manner. As a result, we are harried, worn out and stress filled with too much knowledge, and no way to handle it in a more relaxed frame of mind. This is crucial to remember. We are not sure what we need to know, we are not sure what tidbits of information are more important, and we have no idea where to find certain information which might help us get the answers we need.

If we could, it would be ideal to get to all thinking adults to understand computer technology and to at least understand that there are other avenues than MSM. But our society is still in a transitional stage, and this move might not happen for another several years, perhaps a whole new generation. It isn't ideal at all, but it's better to know why we're banging our heads against a brick wall.

[knowbody0]

2. these are folks who can only handle little bits of reality at

a time, and name calling only pushes them further to the right. i have enlightened many, but only by respectfully listening to them and calmly showing them my truths. the polarized talk shows only separate us, and the left is as guilty of this as the right.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. What you are saying has happened is quite accurate

And it can happen that people will trade freedom for presumed security but you have to scare the shit out of them first.

SO in their homes you scare the shit out of them. Then they need gates in their communities. And they need a set of rules that go beyond ordinary laws. People need to and have to park in a specific space. See, first you have to convince them that giving up choice out of fear is a convenience and that you are doing them some huge friggin favor, if they just forfeit their choice.

Then you have to make them fear the food in their fridge going bad...or make them fear the gaspumps running out of gas, but then first you need to make them fear environmentalists that don't realize we need WAR to make our automobiles run.

Of all the conspiracy type theorists out there, the one that made a lot of sense was William Cooper in Behold a Pale Horse...he damaged a lot of his credibility by joining with other more extreme factions of that whole era of militia groups in the late 80's pre-Timothy McVeigh.

In his book, he discusses population control methods such as stress testing society via shock tests...i.e. rolling blackouts, skyrocketing gas prices, etc.

We've been subjected to a diet of fear and instability many times, but it hasn't been weilded this much as a weapon against us in our lifetimes as is now. The people that lived through Pearl Harbor are all dying....so are the ones that lived through the Great Depression.

[Wetzelbill]

8. yeah, wow that was a great reply

Fear is a powerful weapon. Especially in the hands of cowards and bullies.

[RagAss]

4. Excellent observations

The government as protector is government in it's most primordial form. "You need me, I'm the only one who can keep you safe". The subjects, terrified of the evil that lurks, will not only adhere to the whims of the great Protector but lash out viciously at anyone that questions him.



There's one more thing that I'm certain of. If Fitzgerald fails to get an indictment on this Plame stuff, they are going to slap down anyone and everyone who ever questioned their authority in the most cruel, vicious way you can imagine. That's a very big part of maintaining the authority of the Protector and, I fear, in our future. Whatever brief awakening of the MSM we had to the treachery of this regime, will melt away very quickly. The drumbeats for Iran have already started.

[hyphenate]

5. kicking for the night crew

I'm heading to bed! :)

[Wetzelbill]

6. well said, you have lots of things going on in there

Now, the founding fathers, wise as they were, their original intent was to protect white male landowners. However, what their words have come to symbolize after the emancipation of slaves, civil rights act and women's suffrage is the ideal of the American myth. And, that myth is a powerful one. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The U.S. stands for all of this, we are supposed to be better than the rest.

Well, we have a major flaw in our system. Money. The top one-one thousandth of richest people in our country make 18,000 dollars for every dollar that someone in the bottom 90 percent of the income ladder makes. Even the rich leave the rich behind in our country. We are less likely to move socioeconomic classes than our parents and grandparents were.

But people still believe in that myth. It gives hope. Dreams. That you can be rich. That I can be rich. If you work hard, you get a piece of the rock. We are indoctrined to believe this. That the U.S. in all it's glory is beyond reproach.

Now the people with the money control everything. Media. Congress. The White House. And, by default, the Supreme Court. Because, SC judges are political appointees appointed by bought and paid for politicians.

What I'm getting at is this.

In order to effectively reach these average people, we need to get them to open their eyes to the world around them. That guys like the Fortunate Son in the WH aren't like them. That guys like that don't really care. We need to get people to look at their lives and understand why they struggle to make those car and mortgage payments. Why they work harder than ever, but live worse than ever as well.

People vote against their own best interest. People cheer for what is against their own best interest. They have a suspicion of government, but mainly from a social program and Big Brother standpoint. The still haven't gotten beyond the idea that our national myth has flaws. Nobody wants to believe that the leader of the free world would attack a country for energy and political reasons. If they allowed themselves to believe that then they would allow themselves to not believe in the American Dream.

But we need to show that the Dream has it's cracks. That it isn't perfect.

Many people, I've read some LTTE that confirm this in the last year or two, believe in the inherent good of our leadership, so they are willing to forego liberties for safety. Many people have been so scared stiff from color-coded terror alerts and dirty bomb threats and Saddam hyperbole that they will do anything just to feel even minutely safe.

We need to show them that the only thing that has changed in the last three hundred years is that American's have become fearful. We need to show them that Americans "Have nothing to fear but fear itself." (Thanks FDR)

Once we can get them to open their eyes to real life -their life- and not spin, then we can do that.

I'm just not sure how exactly to do it. My thinking is, start by using electoral office as activism. See, we haven't had any great Civil Rights changes since the major rights movements of the '60's. If we can get grassroots activists to start up a movement for grassroots candidates to take over city councils, mayorships, state legislatures and so on we can do it. That's what the Conservatives did, starting from the time LBJ blew out Goldwater in '64. They began a movement. That's what makes them tough to beat, because they have a stringent base.

Grassroots activism, winning electoral office and then enacting good policy. Utilize Air America, stuff like that. Keep chipping away. Keep reaching those people.

The movement will become it's own force.

I think it can happen.

I think it will.

[MichiganVote]

7. The ruse is rooted in the phrase...all men are created equal

and .... 'this is a goverment of the people, by the people and for the people.'

First, the tenet that we are all created equal denies the real fact that regardless of what the founders had in mind, we do not live our lives in an equal manner.

Second, the US is now a government that is of the wealthy, by the wealthy and for the wealthy. With the rise of globalization, the magician has essentially removed the cloth to reveal the rabbit. We are the rabbit and our neighbors are the rabbits.

We have one earth and one earth only. Those who survive will be those who have the most in terms of resources. For now and for some, forever, the people who support the "fear" program are all about staying with the herd they think will provide the most for them. The children of the baby boomers relish their position as the only super power even as they deny the fast track to superpower status China and India are now on.

Democrats have not shown what they can provide and even when they do, the republicans highjack the idea, the credit and they do it with the greater resources they have developed, legal or illegal. They don't care. The mission to evangelize our economic prosperity (or lack thereof) at the risk of damaging this set of united states is immaterial to the elites. The elites view their job as one of staying on top. Those who are gullible enough to believe in them will suffer, those who watch, wait and guage their decisions wisely, will make it through.

[hyphenate]

9. shameless kick

:kick:

[RagAss]

10. Kick - how did this thread ever die???

[Wetzelbill]

12. I was surprised too

[troubleinwinter]

19. Crappy thread title.

[dogday]

11. Nominated and Kicked

[Wetzelbill]

13. I put this on my blog with Hyphenate's permission

Plus my response and the link to this thread.

If you want to check it out:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/billwetzel/

[electron_blue]

16. Yes, I think the Avg (voting) American is so comfortable with their

freedoms and have never had them seriously threatened that they can't believe giving away a few freedoms (such as those in the Patriot Act) will make much of a difference. I get the impression that they somehow think we are blessed-by-God and even if we threw out our freedoms, the govt wouldn't harm avg citizens bcs, hey, we're all in this together.

They don't get that their "leaders" are not in this with us.

[Pacifist Patriot]

15. Easy way out, but I need to go put my kids to bed.

The social psychology of Erich Fromm answers many of your questions. His books, "The Sane Society" and "Escape from Freedom" are as relevant today as they were sixty years ago.

As for your last question.....No!

[hyphenate]

17. Thanks for the book titles

I will look into them. :)