So they are executing people on the streets of London?

[SoCalDem]

Eyewitness on BBC news (just now) was being interviewed live, and said that the police chased the man, pushed him down, and one police "sat on him" , and fired 5 shots into him while he lay on the ground..

They better hope he had a 'bomb-belt" on him:

Talk about the Wild West attitude of GWB :eyes:

Wonder if we'll see THAT footage

[whistle]

1. This is the future of the U.S. war on terror as well.....

[bribri16]

33. The entire world is destablized, as was warned before invasion of

Iraq. Briton is Briton no more.

[K-W]

77. And our government chose that path. EOM

[ArkDem]

119. A Briton is a native of Britain.

[bluetrain]

2. why did they do this to him?

[Pachamama]

7. He looked middle-eastern and nervous?

:shrug:

[SoCalDem]

9. I can see a young person who might be an illegal immigrant

and not speak the language..being very afraid of police.. This will get very ugly..

I feel for the cops too.. If they miss out on capturing a "bad guy", innocent people may die.

Catch-22..Just like bin laden wants.

[izzie]

32. Which shows he is not brain dead.

If you do not have a flag wrapped around your self here you would be in terror also. The world has gone nuts. You do know that places in the world have gone through this all before? It seems to be the way many of the weak go for power. Some times it works.

[Jersey Devil]

41. They are saying he was a bomber from yesterday (Thursday)

and that they ID'd him and he ran.

[CWebster]

64. Really though, what else can they say? nt

[Spinzonner]

3. So, if they suspect he has a bomb on him

They should wait and allow him to make a quick move that would set it off ?

It's an ugly world and the options are constrained when you might be dealing with a suicide bomber.

[SoCalDem]

4. If they suspected he had a bomb or was wearing one,

it might have been prudent to not sit on him as well..and they missed an opportunity to question the guy..

I guess we'll have to wait for the videos..

and now I just heard that they have (police) stormed a mosque.. Hmmmm..getting interesting in London..

[Pallas180]

90. Rumors and not true Socaldem.

better to wait for the dust to settle.

[goclark]

109. That's exactly what the RETHUGS want to do

They got their wish, Blair probably told them to go the the mosque and get them.


This is not going to sit well with Muslims around the world.

[Boredtodeath]

5. What part of this did you miss?

one police "sat on him" , and fired 5 shots into him while he lay on the ground

He was RESTRAINED. Then SHOT POINT BLANK by the restraining officer.

[Spinzonner]

10. Perhaps he was instructed not to move and was attempting to do so

Overpowering and immobilizing him in that situation is not a viable option IF he is wearing a bomb.

However, the facts are unknown and I'm inclined to cut them some slack and wait.

[SoCalDem]

13. If someone sat on you and told you not to move

but they said it in a language you did not understand..what would you do?? Don't know if that's the case here..just saying..

[Spinzonner]

21. If he's got a firearm or other weapon

and/or is in a uniform, I'd be likely to stop struggling, especially if there's unlikely to be an escape.

But then again, I'm not a suicide bomber.

[drhilarius]

26. If a cop sat on me and pointed a gun at my head...

he could be speaking Klingon and I would get the idea that I probably shouldn't move.

[jayfish]

78. That's Not How Your Body Works

If you are being smothered, your first instinct is to get unsmothered. I'll wait for the "facts" to come out this, but so far it smells.

Jay

[Mairead]

Shooting into a bomb is not such a hot idea either

Or rather it's only too likely to prove a hot idea -- terminally hot.

[CWebster]

83. Really, Mairead

I was thinking the same thing.

[The Stranger]

123. The facts are known. There was no bomb.

There never was a bomb.

[CWebster]

66. Now, they can pretty much claim

that anyone they riddle with bullets had--or better yet, was suspected of having a bomb.

[Solly Mack]

6. "Police have been given orders to shoot to kill if they believe

someone is about to detonate a bomb."

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1189920,00.html

(I encourage folks NOT to reach into their knapsacks for ANY reason....no matter how innocent...it can get you killed)

talk about knapsack problems

[SoCalDem]

11. I would ditch the backpack entirely..

Perhaps they should not allow any carry-ons at all.. People could learn to adapt to that lifestyle if it would mean better safety..Most people carry around lots of stuff they don't even need..


There's a new cottage industry for someone,..,Stylish see-through bags for women, and see-thorugh briefcases :)

And perhaps they should require that men travel barechested, and all women tank tops.Both sexes could wear snug pants.. No place to hide anything :)

[cornermouse]

16. Better yet, don't carry a knapsack, a purse, or anything else

[ladjf]

8. Maybe somebody didn't want him around as a witness.

[non sociopath skin]

12. Once again, could I ask respectfully for conspiracy theorists to wait ...

... until we know more?

Police are also surrounding a mosque in East London. My instinct is that they would not be doing stuff like this if there wasn't some very positive ID.

The Brit police have their faults but shooting on suspicion isn't usually one of them.

The Skin

[SoCalDem]

18. No conspiracy.. juist comments from an eyewitness who was 5 feet away

from the shooting..

[non sociopath skin]

25. Which of the witnesses used the term "executing"?

Call me an arrant knave, but if a criminal is about to blow me up and the police shoot him before he can do it, I don't see that as an "execution".

The Skin

[SoCalDem]

29. Hi "arrant knave"...

The man said he was pushed down from behind, sat on and shot 5 times.. The word exectuion was not said, but it sure describes the event, no?

He was not shot as he ran, and no one said anything about a bomb..

Note to Londoners.. never run from police...not anymore.. It wasn't all that long ago that UK police were not even armed..

Was he a bad guy, I hope so, for the police's sake..

[Spider Jerusalem]

31. UK police still aren't generally armed...

and in this case, per BBC report, they've instructions to use lethal force if there's any possibility that they may be dealing with a suicide bomber who might be about to turn himself into a smoking crater...

[non sociopath skin]

47. So me and Mrs Arrant Knave are sitting on the tube and a crim gets on ....

... and is going to blow us up. Then the police arrive and take him out before he can do it.

That's an "execution" on the planet where you live?

And how would you define what the crim was about to do to us?

The Skin

[CWebster]

68. And if he wasn't

they will make him one.

After all, Blair has had such a good record on bending the evidence to justify the crime.

[Mairead]

86. We seem to be in Vulcan mind-meld lately

I was just thinking the same thing -- whether he was innocent or guilty while alive, he's guilty now. They'll fit him up without a second thought.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. watching BBC now and I was going gto go to bed

you can do it on the web

[SoCalDem]

15. The footage I commented on was the ones from the street cams

Those will probably be embargoed until the police view them.No doubt the shooting is on that footage

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. shoot I just saw it on the cam

looks like honest to goodness hot pursuit situation

More thick coat.. it is warm in london, some officers arrived wtih SMGs, they may have prevented another bombing

[SoCalDem]

19. Hmm I am watching BBC too..

Which version of BBC do you get? We only get BBCAmerica and it's only for 30 minutes at a time..

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. getting the direct feed from london

on the web

Oh and this shooting was scottalnd yard...

[SoCalDem]

22. Ah-haaaa..Good idea.. I will go online

It's late for me, and I have had no sleep,. hence the density :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. sleep in this weather?

[SoCalDem]

27. It's 72 degrees in MY house, baybeeee

We paid $5200.00 for a new A/C system last month, and I am staying cool ..no matter the electric bill.:evilgrin:

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. here it is broken, doe snot work well

well shoot timeto try to get some zsss though

[SoCalDem]

30. nighty night.. take a showr and stand naked in front of a fan

That'll cool you off:)

[Spider Jerusalem]

23. Web link for BBC News 24:

(Windows media broadband) http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/live/bb/wm/video/now4_bb.asx

[charlie]

34. Aiyiyi

I just read that the cops were using shotguns. That guy isn't just dead, he's vapor.

[muriel_volestrangler]

35. Not according to an eyewitness

"Passenger Mark Whitby told BBC News he had seen a man of Asian appearance shot five times by "plain-clothes police officers" with a handgun."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

[charlie]

36. According to another

Sky news:

Teri Godly, who was also in the carriage when the suspected bomber boarded, said: "A tall Asian man with a beard and a rucksack got on after me. Then about eight or nine police with shotguns boarded after him and started shouting to us all 'get out, get out of the station'."

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. Thought the actual witness to the shooting

says it was a handgun, not the shotguns, that was used.

[SoCalDem]

40. I heard pistol..

But someone else said they cahsed him inside the tube with shotguns..

Could be both

[Solly Mack]

37. Yep. Just heard him on TV say that

They interviewed him live

[DemonFighterLives]

51. Funny Pic

:rofl:

Is that Blair on the hotseat?

[SoCalDem]

38. British gallows humor already

from www.b3ta.com
AlQaeda's new marketing plan






"He's got WIRES...shoot him.."

[K-W]

80. As someone with an anxiety disorder and a discman,

I am really worried about all this "look for nervous people with wires" talk.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

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[CWebster]

59. Beat ya to it.

for that matter, look at this thread.

[Taxloss]

63. No,

paranoid, ill-informed conspiracy theories get me irked.

[Spider Jerusalem]

44. Ill-mannered, loutish, and uninformed ranting...

hardly counts as "battling it out". :eyes:

[CWebster]

45. lol

more personal attacks in lieu of a rebuttal again.

Hey, here in the US, we are used to that.

[Spider Jerusalem]

48. I already rebutted you in the other thread, actually...

and if you'd check my profile, you'd see that I am in the US.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[CWebster]

53. Woman, actually

and that is against the rules--but you continue to attack me because I question the official assassination of a citizen at point blank--without due process?

[Spider Jerusalem]

54. ????

Potential/suspected suicide bomber running from police (doubtless after having been ordered to stop) runs into a crowded Underground station, the police use the force necessary (and authorised, in this situation) to stop him, and you talk about "due process"?

Right.

[CWebster]

57. Yeah, like I told you

ask any Afro-American or, for that matter, any dark-skinned person or Ay-Rab-looking person about running from the cops.

Happens all the time.

[Spider Jerusalem]

88. And like I told you...

you shouldn't project your assumptions about what goes on in the US onto other countries, because it DOESN'T "happen all the time" in the UK.

[Taxloss]

56. "Official assassination"?

He was shot, not "officially assassinated", and we know almost none of the facts of the case - due process may have been followed, in terms of the police rules of engagement. Stop banging on about things you know nothing about.

[CWebster]

60. He was shot by the cops.

By the cops, point blank to the head, five times.


By the cops. By the cops. By the cops.

[Taxloss]

61. How does that make it "official"?

Think before answering.

[Mairead]

117. Because the cops will not be tried for murder. Their act was an

official act just as much as that of any state executioner who pulls the lever or throws the switch or pushes the plunger home.

[Taxloss]

128. If they did wrong, they'll be punished.

We don't know the rules of engagement yet. This was not an assassination or an execution, it was a killing.

[Matilda]

73. "Five times" being the imortant point;

surely once would have been enough?

Trigger happy cops is something London doesn't need.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

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[Mairead]

111. D'you know, that reads as tho you're implying CW is a bigot.

Do please clarify.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mairead]

116. Well, speaking from several years of reading CWebster's posts

I can tell you that your assessment is reactive rather than thoughtful, and that you're dead wrong. You owe her an apology, and I hope you'll pay up.

[Taxloss]

121. Did you read the UKDU thread?

[Mairead]

124. I don't know. Point it out to me.

[Taxloss]

125. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=191&topic_id=6509&mesg_id=6509

[DemonFighterLives]

52. I'm not up on the details of this shooting incident

but still feel like getting a little rant in here. After watching the stories yesterday of the second London incident, I've had to revise my suspicions and adjust my :tinfoilhat: . If this terrorism is real, it is just the chaos that shrubco has been wishing to create and the Islamic world has fallen for the game.

I am very suspicious of the administrations 911 story and of course the war in Iraq should never have happened. It is like Bush told Blair that he is already on the same boat and needs to stir up a little Pearl Harbor of his own. At the end of it all, I think most here can agree on the fact that the world is much more dangerous since dubby TOOK office. The hornet's nest that has been disrupted can not be put back together. Our (US) and Britains best option is to get rid of Bush and Mr. Blair who seems to be following the game plan.

War Without End! Amen. :nuke:

:rant:

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

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[Taxloss]

58. Racial slurs, now?

You're the one who used the phrase "sand-N*gg*rs"

[CWebster]

62. Yes, to suggest the sentiments held by those in the grip

of the post 911 hysteria.

You seem to be more offended by names than state executions on the street.

[Taxloss]

65. Oh, so it's "state" executions now?

I was talking about your "WASP bluebloods" and "mongrel" remarks.

[DemonFighterLives]

69. I'm not the peacemaker here,

but if those stereotypes or words bother you than CWebster should not be using them.

Honestly, when Michael Moore called us dumb Americans, it set some off and I actually agreed with him. Now is that some statement of how stupid I am or a general remark about how easily led most of us are. Dubby's terror, terra all the time has now spread to Britain. I would get the investigations started as soon as possible and find out why Kelly suicided in the run up to war. Tony seemed to help cook up intel. , so he is also to blame along with our fearless leader.

:pals:

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

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[Taxloss]

75. Charming.

You appear to have a chip on your shoulder. You don't even know the racial background of UKDUers.

[DemonFighterLives]

79. Can we all just get along - Rodney King

Rodney King was the man beaten silly by a throng of abusive cops and these were his words of wisdom after the incident and the riots and all.

I think something can be gleaned from that.

Edit: terrible grammar

[CWebster]

81. No, only the responses

personally directed at me on their forum.. Troll, freeper, etc, for challenging the 911 mindset of relinquishing liberty based on fear rather than looking at what fuels terrorism.

Look, we have been through this already. I would've thought it would be clear to you too considering the IRA--but then England never did learn fast on that problem either.

[Taxloss]

85. Insulting the Troubles now?

We "didn't learn fast", did we? Do you have any idea what you are going on about? How very complacent. We suffer continual domestic terrorism (with US funding). Then the US suffers terrorism and it's AOK to criticise us. That is very insulting.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

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[CWebster]

98. Should I alert on you?

:hi:

I am tired of being picked on for challenging the official line in all this- considering the kid was restrained and the brutality of the act.

Maybe I am coming from a US reference, witnessing the cops get off repeatedly for murdering Afro-Americans with impunity, but I resent being accused of being a freeper or a troll or a conspiracy nut for responding with horror at this assasination.

Now, I haven't alerted anyone and I never do, but I personally apologized to one of the British posters if they found me insensitive, but I resent this pile on.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

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[CWebster]

99. That's it

.

[DemonFighterLives]

67. Not wanting to get into your argument C,

but I understand these are very touchy times for the Brits. If you remember after 911, many Americans were at each other's throats and anyone else they could lash out at.

I am Sorry for what the Brits are now going through and I hope it can all be sorted out and the truth come out. Some of Americans here (DU) have the benefit of hindsight and can see that anything or anyone that dubby is tangled up with should be in question. His* war on the world should be questioned at every stop.

Someone can sure tell me where I am wrong, but I have read that the Bali bombing was in question, many unanswered questions about 7/7 which has become the new terrorist statement here in the US. They seem to have given up the everything changed after 9/11 meme and now it is everything changed after 7/7. I still believe everything changed on 1/20/00 when dubby smirked himself to the front of the PNAC pack.

[CWebster]

70. Yeah, I do remember

that is why an act which fills me with horror and revulsion is perfectly acceptable and any questioning of it--any concern over it is dismissed as a conspiracy theory accompanied by a chorus of personal insults.

Yes, I remember very much what it was like in the US after 911 and that is why I speak to it now.

[DemonFighterLives]

74. I can appreciate speaking about it

That is part of our freedoms after all. We understand tha Brits have got to sort out what has been happening on their side of the pond.

As I said before, the entire world has gotten much more violent since 9/11 and has been given a boost by 7/7. The vigilant among us will wait for the facts and if not satisfied with those facts, will push for the truth.

I really don't see the due process in shooting a person in the back, but those details will need to be fought out in court or whatever. The chance remains that this was a dangerous man and was about to commit something or other. We may never know for sure now.

[in_cog_ni_to]

71. If he didn't have a bomb belt on,

he will have had one by the time the 'official' story comes out. :eyes:

[CWebster]

76. On the BBC this morning

One witness claimed he was wearing a coat, which is bound to be suspicious in this heat.

What bothered me is how all the authorities interviewed were going into uniform spin about it.

[Matilda]

82. What bothers me is shooting a man five times when he's already down.

And it happened over two hours ago, and the police have yet to make
a statement.

Getting the story straight?

I don't like bombs or bombers, but neither do I like cops with guns
getting overexcited.

[Mairead]

120. The five times bothers me too. Execution is the only word for it.

Shoot him while he's running, okay. Break some of his bones while subduing him, okay. But to mash him flat and then shoot him five times? Execution.

[DS1]

84. Yes, the guy another witness saw being chased by 8 to 9 cops

INTO the subway system, leaping over barriers, with a rucksack - I'd have shot him too - to NOT shoot him would've been negligence.

[jim3775]

87. New BBC report: A witness on Harrow Road in W London reports...

police snipers were setting up around a house. And as im typing he is on the phone saying he is hearing 7 "firecracker noises".

[muriel_volestrangler]

89. On BBC website

And armed police have cordoned off an area of Harrow Road in west London.

BBC correspondent Graham Satchell, who is at the scene, said the focus of the large police presence appeared to be an internet cafe.

As well as armed officers in body armour, there were about seven police vehicles and an ambulance, he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

Some talk on TV about 2 arrests there.

[Lannes]

94. .

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-07-22T131027Z_01_SCH145033_RTRUKOC_0_SECURITY-BRITAIN.xml

"Witnesses spoke of panic as a man of Asian appearance wearing a heavy jacket vaulted over barriers at Stockwell station on Friday as he was chased by eight or nine armed officers and then shot. Some said he was carrying a rucksack."

[Pallas180]

95. CXNN right now reporting man wearing large heavy coat, when it

was quite warm out.

It seemed the police had been waiting for him as well as 8 or 9 police chasing him, and he jumped over a stockade.

Sorry folks, if he was trying to get on the train, and refused to stop when cops were chasing, and knowing these are not American cowboy police, but calm bobbies, I would think the bobbies may have saved the lives of hundreds of people.

It might also be a warning to the following bombers - unusual for bobbies, that we will shoot first and ask questions later.

On the other hand, it's a real problem with these terra ists bombers
who want to die-

So in this case I support the bobbies.

[Mairead]

101. Apropos the 'heavy coat', has anyone noticed that what's 'hot' in Britain

doesn't begin to be 'hot' in India? Someone recently returned from India might well wear a heavy coat simply because of feeling cold!

[muriel_volestrangler]

102. It's not that the coat proves anything

and it is possible that it was just for warmth, for someone who likes it hot. But when you are following a bomb suspect, and they are wearing a coat which conceals what's underneath it, and the suspect runs away when challenged, vaulting the barriers at the station and trying to get into the train, then it's reasonable to think he could have something dangerous under the coat, specifically a bomb.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

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[muriel_volestrangler]

105. 'Through the coat'?

I havne't heard any eye-witnesses specify where he was shot, but the talking heads on TV have all said head shots would be most likely at close range.

The police have already said they were following the man:

The incident was "directly linked to the ongoing and expanding anti-terrorist operation", he said.
...
BBC Home affairs correspondent Margaret Gilmore said officers had challenged a known suspect they had been following.

"He ran, they followed him. They say they gave him a warning, they then shot him.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

I hope that your phrase "Paki-land" was meant as satire on a racist perspective.

[Mairead]

110. 5 shots through the head?? Sounds unlikely to me.

Skulls are sturdy, but even one slug is usually enough to begin disintegration. After 3 or even 2 I'd think it'd be like shooting a dropped watermelon: why bother?

'I hope that your phrase "Paki-land" was meant as satire on a racist perspective.'

Can you doubt it?

[muriel_volestrangler]

112. It was the context of the phrase

In the middle of a sentence laying out a scenario in which the man was not a terrorist suspect, it seemed unexpected.

I don't doubt the policeman was shooting to kill. I'll guess that their training may include "when there's no other suspect involved, and you've decided to kill him, shoot until you're sure he's dead". If the purpose was to stop him setting off a bomb, you can't risk that a bad shot hasn't killed him at once.

[Mairead]

115. I just read the Beeb account

And my sense that they were shots to the body through the coat seems supported by the report that they tried to revive him. Trying to revive someone after 5 head shots would be as pointless as trying to revive a guillotine victim, and for broadly the same reason, with the added attraction that any subsequent identification would have to be by fingerprint or DNA.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

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[rinsd]

114. High of 72 F yesterday in London, couldn't find humidity (nt)

[Taxloss]

126. It's 60%. nt

[NorthernSpy]

96. of course, if he'd had a bomb with a deadman trigger...

... summarily shooting him would have instantly destroyed any chance of preventing the explosion.

Scary to think of!

:think:

[Pallas180]

97. NORTH, pls explain dead man trigger ?

thanks

[Spider Jerusalem]

100. "Dead man's handle" or "dead man's switch"...

in the context of suicide bombing, it's a pressure-sensitive trigger (held in the hand, usually) that causes detonation if released.

[marions ghost]

104. I just don't understand

why they would kill someone they had already restrained. The eyewitnesses were very clear on this. Wouldn't they want to keep the guy alive for questioning? I think some cops are going to be interrogated themselves but probably not held accountable under the circumstances. If the guy was totally innocent, o boy--big backlash potential. But yeah they could cover that up.

I agree that it's very strange why this killing occurred, since it seems that they'd want to run him in. as long as they got THAT close and no bomb had gone off.

[muriel_volestrangler]

106. They haven't been clear he was restrained

The closest to that was that they had 'bundled on top of him'. That doesn't mean he was restrained. Think of a game of American Football, or rugby, or British Bulldog.

[marions ghost]

107. bundled on top

does not mean restrained? In American football, it would mean restrained I'd say. You would not be able to move.

I'm just sayin--it seems strange they would shoot to kill rather than try to keep a suspect alive. As you say, maybe there are more facts that will explain this. Until then, the question remains--why?

[Taxloss]

122. Subdued, maybe, but not restrained.

[CWebster]

108. Account from "The Independent"

He said that Asian man ran on to the train pursued by three plainclothes police officers.

He said the man tripped and was also pushed to the floor. He said: "One of the police officers was holding a black automatic pistol in his left hand. They held it down to him and unloaded five shots into him. I saw it. He's dead, five shots, he's dead."

He reported the man did not seem to be carrying a weapon or wearing a rucksack


http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article300809.ece

[jsamuel]

127. Execution

[The Magistrate]

129. locking

This has degenerated into a flame-war.