So, what's going on in London?

[Taxloss]

Let's examine the facts.

For a start, I live here:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Charlwood+Place&spn=0.021271,0.058464&hl=en

This is two stops from Stockwell, and the place those caught up in today's incident were taken to - Pimlico. It's also close to Oval, which was closed yesterday after a failed suicide bombing.

What happened today?

A man was shot dead by police on a Tube train at Stockwell. He is reported to have been Asian.

What does this mean?

It means that the city is on an extremely high level of alert and has been for two weeks. It was jumpy before that. After yesterday's failed/attempted bombings, you could not get a higher sense of alert. Nevertheless, Londoners are doing their best to carry on as usual.

It means that security alerts close stations and sections of the Tube around the clock, as "suspect packages" and "suspicious individuals" have to be dealt with. It means long travel delays.

It means that our police are extremely tired. This level of policing is unprecedented. Officers have been pulled in from across the country. Leave cancelled; everyone's doing overtime.

It means our police aren't taking any chances. At a junction station, a man wearing a heavy overcoat in warm weather ignores a command to stop, jumps the ticket barriers, and runs onto a train in the same month that eight suicide (or attempted suicide) bombers have attacked the network.

It means that these police are now very probably suspended pending disciplinary action.

It means we Londoners are very shaken, but still carrying on. We are vigilant. They clearly would like to attack again.

What does this NOT mean?

It does not mean that police death squads are roaming the city assassinating muslims.

It does not mean the UK or the city of London is in the grip of fear. We're in the grip of annoyance.

It does not mean that we are all running into the arms of Tony Blair, begging him to strip away our civil liberties and protect us.

It does not mean we are putting out flags.

So stop saying it does.

[Zuni]

1. police death squads!

:hide:

[prodigal_green]

2. As a New Yorker

I totally understand being in the "grip of annoyance" I hope you won't mind that I'll be peppering my conversation with that phrase all day.

What do you mean no flag pins? Why do you hate America, er, I mean Great Britain?

[greatauntoftriplets]

3. I am very familiar with your neighborhood....

Have stayed in a couple hotels on Belgrave Road...it's a terrific area.

Thanks for the report.

[Ravenseye]

4. Represent

I lived a few blocks from where you live once. I loved it.

I just want to add that the man was identified as a 'south asian' which means Indian/Pakistani looking, not Chinese/Japanese looking.

[leveymg]

5. Why do you assume "failed/attempted" bombings instead of "faked"?

This is an honest question. This would be the first authentic attack, that I am aware of, that bombers have used detonators to blow anything up. As far as I have read, no one was seriously injured.

Did the police find any unexploded munitions? If so, why did everything fail to go off except the detonators. Can you answer these questions, please?

[Taxloss]

6. Well, we don;t really know yet.

But after 7 July, why would anyone "fake" a bombing? The police would land on you like a tonne of bricks. You'd have to be mentally ill. Yesterday was either a disastrous dummy run or a real attempt that failed.

[leveymg]

11. If they had found unexploded munitions, they'd have said that.

Use your noodle. This stinks, really, of a dirty-trick operation that occurred only hours before the US House voted to make the Patriot Act permanent. Coincidence, perhaps? But, until someone comes up with a better explanation, that must be considered a top investigative premise.

By the way, the people who planted those dummy charges haven't been caught. They're either very lucky, or very good. Lunatics and copycats usually are neither. Real terrorists would have used real explosives.

I hope I'm proven wrong about this.

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. They did

Yesterday there were small explosions at separate scenes, which appeared to be detonating caps going off without triggering more substantial explosives found at the scenes. The pattern was the same as on July 7, with attempts on three tube trains and a bus.
...
Investigations today were advancing on forensic work with the devices and there may be a forthcoming update on whether yesterday's incidents were linked to the July 7 attacks. An initial examination of the devices showed they contained constituents which appear similar to the explosives found in a bath at a property in West Yorkshire following the earlier attacks. Three of the July 7 bombers came from West Yorkshire.

There was speculation that the explosives found yesterday may have degraded, but experts seemed to be surprised that all four bombs should fail to explode.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1534324,00.html

If you think the purpose was to get an American act passed, wouldn't it be far more effective to plant a crappy bomb in the USA?

[leveymg]

39. The coincidence is remarkable. More political capital to be made

by targeting the UK and/or European population right now.

The Americans have already been scared onto the right path, and an actual attack here would have undermined the case for giving more power to the internal security forces.

Admittedly, this may be the work of a cell of British-born jihadists who have more luck than skill. Now that I hear that the explosives were home-made, that seems more likely than if there were blasting caps with no other munitions. We will see.

At any rate, this reminds me of the '93 WTC bombing, where an FBI agent provocateur was supposed to have mixed inert materials in with the explosives but somehow that plan didn't go off as planned.

[DemonFighterLives]

7. It all sucks

I think my level of annoyance has been rising since 1/20/2000.

God Bless our Brit. Brothers and Sisters!

:grouphug:

[RPM]

8. i thought london cops dont have guns

or were these 'special' police?

[SouthernDem2004]

14. They were SRT types.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

10. Thank you for the update, Taxloss

It's always helpful to get a calm, reasoned on-scene report.

[kiki]

12. I'm a Londoner...

...(or "Londoneer", as I heard an American tourist say on the news the other day :) ), and if I hear the words "stoicism" or "spirit of the Blitz" again I'm gonna piss me a river.

We're human beings like anyone else. What we DON'T have, in comparison to the US, is a deranged, utterly corrupt government and their mouthpiece media telling us that the sky is falling and that hordes of Arabs are coming to eat our mothers and rape our pets, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week...

[WoodrowFan]

18. you don't have..

What we DON'T have, in comparison to the US, is a deranged, utterly corrupt government and their mouthpiece media telling us that the sky is falling and that hordes of Arabs are coming to eat our mothers and rape our pets, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week...

you want some? we have extra!!!! I'll trade you, well, pretty much the entire MSM for BBC World, and I'll toss in Instpundit, LGF and the US House of Representatives for free!!!

[kiki]

31. Nah, you're allright...

Thanks but no fucking thanks. :)

[WoodrowFan]

32. please, just one

we'll send you O'Reilly. he'll be some busy wacking off to Page 3 girls on your papers to do any harm!!!

[SouthernDem2004]

13. The guy they shot was a suspect they were following. /nt

[tomg]

15. Thanks for the update

and a great post. I spend a fair amount of time in the UK, and just returned from London a week ago. What struck me in the immediate aftermath of the bombings on the 7th was just how considered, intelligent and civil the public discussion was. Incidentally, I recall hearing on either ITV or the BBC on the evening of the 7th that one of the reasons the medical responders were able to handle so many casualties was that there was a national medical conference taking place in London at the time. Does anyone else recall that?

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. The bus bomb was right outside the HQ of the British Medical Association

and I believe they had a meeting there at the time. I also remember something about one of the hospitals having a meeting about emergeny response via helicopters, so they had the relevant medics all in one place already, by chance.

[tomg]

23. Thanks for the verification.

I was beginning to wonder if I had imagined it.

[MadHound]

16. Well, apparently it does mean that at least the police

Are living in a state of high anxiety. Natural, understandable, this has been hell for the past couple of weeks.

However, while chasing, tackling a suspicious man who isn't following police commands is right, pumping five rounds into the man after he has fallen down, is prone, with a cop on top of him isn't right. That is knee-jerk vigilantism plain and simple. It was also very stupid. If this fellow was a terrorist, wouldn't you want him alive for questioning? And if he isn't a terrorist, you have a public relations nightmare. Stupid, foolish, inexcusable, even given the state of mind in London and the police.

Many many South Asian people wear coats almost year round when they move to northern climes, they're cold. I work with a gentleman from Cambodia, who has lived here in the Midwest for twenty five years. He finally made it down to shirtsleeves last week, when the temperature hit one hundred. Anything lower than the mid ninties and he has at least a light jacket on.

While I don't believe in "police death squads" roaming around London, I do think that the people who shot this man completely overreacted, and should be fired off the force. That last thing that London, or America for that matter, needs is trigger happy, over-hyped police trying to stop terrorism. It is times like this when cooler heads must prevail.

All of that said, I feel for what you and the rest of London is going through. And sad to say, these are more crimes that can be laid at the feet of both Bush and Blair. Take care of yourself, and be careful.

[CWebster]

21. On would also assume

that it would inflame just more retribution.

[Taxloss]

22. That's a very fair response.

It's entirely possible this man was innocent and those police over-reacted horribly. To me, five shots sounds like a lot. These are all questions being asked.

The key fact is that due process is still in place. Those officers will now be subject to the most intense and public scrutiny you can imagine. Call me naive, but I really believe they would not have reacted in that way had they not believed that there was an obvious and terrible threat.

[MadHound]

25. I hope that your scenario is correct friend, I really do

But I can't fail to notice that there has been no follow up reports about this man, and if he was carrying a bomb, hell, even if he was carrying a gun or knife, it would be all over the news as evidence that the police were doing due diligence in protecting the people of London. Instead, all we hear is that this man is shot, with a more to come at a vague later date. Hell, even the mention of the circumstances of the shooting is starting to fade into the background.

And while these police will face due process, it absolutely wrong that they so violently denied that same due process to a suspect they had in their control and custody.

And I'm not saying that you are naive friend. It is more of a reflection of my deep abiding cynicism. Sadly, that cynicism has rarely been proven wrong. I hope that it is in this case.

[muriel_volestrangler]

27. No, I don't think the reports would be out yet

once the incident happened, the tube station was cleared, so all the media gets is the initial witnesses. The police will give out more information when they are sure of it. That's the way these things happen in Britain; perhaps the press don't push the police as much as in the USA (which might be because neither police chiefs nor prosecution attorneys are ever elected in the UK, so the "you must answer your electors" mentality is never there).

[MadHound]

37. Despite our differences in politics and police work, one thing is the same

All police forces feel the need to get good news out ASAP, especially in times of trouble. If this man was carrying anything, even a knife, they would be trumpeting it to the media, especially if he was carrying a bomb. It would make the police look real good, and boost London and English moral, especially in these dark times.

Instead, all we're hearing is crickets, and the sound of what could very well be an atrocity fading away.

[Guy_Montag]

40. Our police almost always wait until they have the whole story

before they make announcements. It's much easier to wait, then announce rather than backtrack later.

[Taxloss]

29. After the bombings two weeks ago, and the attempts yesterday,

the police are not going to release any details until they are sure of their facts. They don't want to alarm anyone. If hewas carrying a bomb, it's a lengthy and delicate process to make it safe and remove it from the station.

What we do seem to know is that the police were following this man before he reached the station. So it wasn't as if he just ran, and they shot him for that - they fancied him for something. He's rumoured to be a suspect from yesterday.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

44. Eyewitness reports appear to indicate...

...that whatever he was doing was definitely NOT normal behaviour for a law-abiding tube passenger, FWIW.

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. I don't think they shot him just because he was wearing a coat

and Asian. I haven't actually seen that there was a cop on top of him. What follows is speculation (but then almost everything is): several armed police were involved, witnesses say, which, since they are relatively rare, means the man was already being followed. He was challenged, the police say, and he ran, jumping the barrier. He tried to get on the train, and tripped. So a suspect has attempted to get away. If he did have a coat on, there is a real chance he had something concealed underneath. Even being on top of him may not be enough to stop a bomb being set off - you'd need to have his arms pinned. In that situation, I don't think trying to kill the guy is necessarily 'trigger happy'. An investigation would be needed, but I can't say he behaved badly enough that he should be fired now, without a complete knowledge of the whole operation.

[MadHound]

36. From the reports I initially heard this morning on NPR and elsewhere

There was indeed a cop on top of him, after the police had pushed him down to the ground, prone, and that a policeman was on top of him before the man was summarily executed.

I've noticed two interesting things that have happened in the news reports since early early this morning. The references to the exact circumstances of the shooting are being dropped, and that no British official has come forward with any sort of bomb from the man to exclaim "See, we ARE protecting Britain" You would surely think that if such a bomb was present that the police would be broadcasting it all over as evidence of their prowess and to boost the moral of all Londoners. Instead, we're hearing crickets chirping.

And since the man is apparently from South Asia, it is no wonder that he is wearing a coat. He was probably chilly. I've known a number of SE Asians, and they are cold, even in the summer, here in the Northern climes

And I'm sorry, but if you cannot non-fatally control a man who is prone, that you are sitting on top of, then you have no business being a cop. Hell, pistol whip the guy, something, anything, but there is no need to pump five rounds into him, period.

[WoodrowFan]

19. thanks

Thank you for a reasoned, calm, well-expressed post. And more importantly, glad you're ok.....

[The Stranger]

26. So the man that was killed -- was he unarmed? No bomb, no gun, no knife?

Did he make any open threats against anyone present?

When the police shot and killed him, was he lying on the ground after having tripped?

Answer these questions. Wait -- I already have an answer to the last one:

"I saw them offload five shots into the person on the floor," an eyewitness, Mark Whitby, told BBC television. "I saw them kill a man."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/22/international/europe/22cnd-london.html?hp&ex=1122091200&en=8e1f6b4af914080f&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. Some have claimed they saw a bomb belt

Commuter Anthony Larkin, who was also on the train at Stockwell station, told 5 Live he saw police chasing a man.

"I saw these police officers in uniform and out of uniform shouting 'get down, get down', and I saw this guy who appeared to have a bomb belt and wires coming out and people were panicking and I heard two shots being fired."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706913.stm

but I wouldn't put too much faith in reports of glances like that.

[The Stranger]

34. No "bomb belt" or "wires" were ever found?

[CWebster]

30. Yes I heard him too

and the tone of his voice conveyed an emotion of shock over the horror of what he witnessed.

[tgnyc]

33. As a black New Yorker,

I've seen way too many cases of police shooting unarmed and non-threatening people of whatever nonwhite ethnic group is most suspect at that moment. "He fit the description..." is common police refrain in minority communities suffering the loss of an innocent -- or at least non-threatening -- member. This incident, from what we know so far, bears a discomforting resemblance to many such incidents.

I hope this was a true bad guy. More than that, I hope he represented an imminent threat to other Londoners.

I hope that these police officers had not just recently strapped on their guns, as London cops spend most of their time famously un-armed (an earlier response said something about "SRT" types. What is that?) and may be a bit off their game in armed pursuit situations.

[Taxloss]

35. Police Armed Response Teams. PARTs.

They scramble to gun incidents.

[SouthernDem2004]

41. SRT=Special Reaction Team The new name for SWAT teams./nt

[StaggerLee]

38. Has anybody seen any reports that mention any bomb squads?

My guess is that that area would have been shut down for a long time if there were explosives involved.

I've only read one article and they don't mention bomb disposal units at all.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/22/london.eyewitness/index.html

[dogday]

42. Does anybody think it is just absolutely stupid

to go to the same place that was just bombed and do it again? and then again after that? You know the Police are on high alert and suspicious to everything. Why take the chance again and try to bomb the same thing?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

43. Nobody said terrorists are smart.

Your average freeper could probably build a bomb if he could stand being sober and away from the internet porn for long enough. You've gotta assume that the terrorists have their own idiots.