A few things I would like to say to Hillary

[Threedifferentones]

1. The sex scenes in GTA require a specific download from the internet in order to access them. Anyone who has the internet and enough knowledge to download the mod has access to plenty of porn which is far more graphic than what I have heard is in GTA.

2. Sex is a natural part of human life, and every person I have ever met older than 13 has been interested in it. Why does it matter if its put into a video game?

3. Stop trying to score political points in an area that stupid republicans will always beat you in. Issues of "family values" are almost all based in stupidity and ignorance, and Republicans are, in general, much, much dumber than you and much, much more willing to pander to base emotions and knee-jerk reactions. This is a losers game for you, so stop playing it.

[applegrove]

1. Having little pods of porn to add to video games where kids shoot,

hunt & kill is a very bad idea. It is about the kid's health.

[LSK]

2. its a bad idea, but not worthy of Hillary's time and energy

Its stupid crap issues like these that undo all the good we are doing in important issues.

The dumbass redneck will overlook Iraq, Economy, Health Insurance and say "see, them dems want to ban everything, im voting Republican".

[Carni]

12. THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

That is EXACTLY what they do!

I hear that kind of thing repeatedly at work and there is no disputing it when someone like Hillary gets out there and makes herself a focal point for a given issue of this type.

I don't think some of the posters here at DU realize just how much these types of issues screw over the Democratic party.

[proud2BlibKansan]

125. The Democrats are NOT the party that is banning everything

1. gay marriage
2. health care for the poor and elderly
3. world peace
4. a woman's right to choose
5. civil liberties

Now tell me which party oppposes each of these and which party supports them?

I don't think some of the posters here at DU realize there is more to life than video games (which NO ONE is trying to ban).

[LSK]

229. we are talking a rednecks perspective here

I am fully aware of what which party is doing what, but you are failing to take the point of view of joe redneck fox watcher.

[proud2BlibKansan]

232. So I guess you realize

you sound like a redneck?

[LSK]

234. no, im looking at the big picture

When you bring nit picky issues such as these to the front, the voters we are trying to turn will focus on these little issues and ignore issues that really affect them.

Say if Hillary votes for economic issues and health care and things that benefit peoples lives, the problem is that people will IGNORE the good and only look at this issue to judge Hillary.

I am not saying that it is the right thing to do, Im just saying that is REALITY. She is creating a way for the right to attack her and a tool for them to distract voters who might consider her.

[proud2BlibKansan]

258. I see this as an issue that will attract the right

not repel them. It's family values. Smart move on Hillary's part.

[ibegurpard]

3. I would agree with you

if the game didn't have a mature rating. So the question should be why are children playing games with a mature rating?
We need to enforce the age restrictions on games but if parents still choose to purchase these things for their children then what can you do? They are just bad parents...the same kind of parents I stare at in disbelief when they bring their five-year-olds with them to see a movie like "Scream."

[applegrove]

6. The games are marketed to kids are they not? All that cartooning?

[ibegurpard]

7. Why do you equate "cartooning" with kids?

Are you not aware of the large market for adult "cartoons" and comic books?

[LSK]

10. the original Mickey Mouse shorts were for adults n/t

[LSK]

9. what makes you think that???

I would think their market is older teens and 20 somethings.

[applegrove]

138. There is a whole culture around gaming. And message boards. You

master one game and buy the next as a kid. And then you get online and talk to other gamers at trade fairs or in the shop - and they talk about how much better GTA is.

The internet can divide us into really small groups by our interests and marketers can sell us the specific things we need. And they know the value of creating a buzz.

You think a kid already gone through half a dozen games doesn't know ALL ABOUT the adult games? The ones with even the higher threshold for adrenaline?

Do your kids not come home from school and go "GREENDAY" I have to get the Greenday CD. Never having mentioned it before? They brag. They are corporations little darlings. This is not the 1950s. This is not even the 1970s.

[ibegurpard]

163. Who cares what the "little darlings" say they need?

They only get it if I think it's appropriate.

[applegrove]

169. My point was they are marketed to.

[ibegurpard]

172. No, they're not.

Did you see this game marketed on Sesame Street?
No, there's no way to completely insulate children from content meant for adults but with reasonable restrictions in place and proper supervision they can be kept from most of it. Problem with you is neither of those is enough for you.

[applegrove]

178. Are you saying that I sew and darn if my email isn't filled with sewing

stuff every day. But a computer that downloads doesn't get any emails on other games?

This is the new world. The tipping point. Trade shows. Conventions. Word of mouth. Etc. Etc.

[ibegurpard]

I'm saying so what?

People can take reasonable precautions to insulate kids from stuff not meant for them but sometimes it's going to get through...that's when it becomes the parent's job. You just want to eliminate anything meant for adults only. Sorry, I'll fight you to the death on that one.

[applegrove]

226. The medical info is in. It is bad for young teens to be exposed

to sexual imagery mixed with violence. Now - we cannot all say that everyone will go through puberty at what age. So we should ban any way of violent sex getting to them before they have had a few years to develop their sexuality naturally.

So we disagree. I say a heavy ban and fines for such material getting to kids - any way it does - is a good thing. You say a simple rating will keep all kids out of harm's way. We will continue to disagree.

[Greyhound]

27. I'm afraid you just don't know anything about this game, or video games...

in general. Not meant as criticism, just pointing out the obvious.
:shrug:
This game, like all of the most popular games (OK, not the Sims), is based, primarily, around extreme, graphic, violence and/or soft porn.

Should we ban the entire industry?

Like all of these 'issues', it comes down to parents parenting, or rather, not parenting. This game costs ~$50. Why does your 8 year old have $50 to blow on a game? This game is clearly marked 'AO' for mature (18+) gamers only (more than can be said for Splinter Cell, or Ghost Recon, Both with the Teen (13+) rating).

Further, the offending scenes were created during the early development of the game as a possible mini-game within the game, it was found not to add anything to the game and got quite boring, so it was discarded. What everyone is so upset about is the result of some geek decompiling the game and finding code that didn't appear to do anything. s/he recompiled it and found that it hadn't been completely developed, that why all the objects are so crude except for the protagonist. This hacker then created the required mod to access the legacy code that was left behind (I do object to this as the game takes about 2 GB(!) of drive space, how much of this is unused code?),and published it. So, for little johnny to see this 'obscene' mini-game he has to come up with the $50, know about the existence of the old code, find and download the mod, install and run the mod (which the game detects as a cheat, and prevents you from ever completing the game 100%), all so he can watch a partially rendered woman give a hummer, and have sex w/ the games anti-hero. Also, there is no penetration shown, so it would be a lot easier for little Johnny to just turn on Cinemax any night after 8, and watch real people doing the same thing in much greater detail.

Should we ban Cinemax too? :hide:

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. One problem Rockstar ahs admited

these were FULLY RENDERED, not partially rendered, they should have been rmoved in the final build. And yes I know the game involves MILLIONS of line of Code.

[Greyhound]

101. I've seen them (the scenes), they were NOT fully rendered, with the...

exception of the (anti)hero (CJ?), who is of course a finished object that is called for the scenes. The (nude) women are obviously development models (think placeholder). The clothed woman is (I believe) his girlfriend, that is also in other parts of the game so is also fully rendered. :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. That is NOT what they said in company statements

see they SHOULD have removed this code in final release and we would not be having this conversation

[Greyhound]

126. true, maybe, OTOH the way to 'win' the game is to...

lie, cheat, steal, murder, destroy property, pimp, fight, drive like an LA cop, etc.

I still think the underlying problem is lack of parenting. I know when we were growing up neither my sister or I could get away with having a chocolate malt without my parents finding out where we got the $ to buy it, let alone being able to sit in front of the TV for 100 or more hours playing some video game.

Attend to the beam in thine own eye. :eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. You know it is not only parenting but this is a way out

for the companies

This is also about corporate responsibility, and I am amazed how people are willing to just give a pass to a corporation that now has admitted to wrong doing

Admittedly they are selling copies ok, controversy is good for sales, but this will affect your entertainment

[Inland]

204. At least the parent decided whether to have Cinemax

A better analogy would be if a parent had Cinemax and all of the sudden the naughty programming began at seven and not eight as advertised.

It isn't either banning cinemax to require it to give an accurate warning. It isn't the parents fault for putting cinemax in the cable package, either.

I don't understand this concept of not letting people take the easy way out of actually believing the labels on these products. If I wanted to give my eight year old fifty bucks or five hundred bucks, and he buys a shitload of stuff, that's my business. But I should be able to look at the cart and know if it's appropriate or not. What's the probalem with that?

[dissent1977]

85. actually, most video games are sold to adults

Grand Theft Auto is generally aimed at young adult men between the ages of about 18 to 30. Look at the sales figures and you will see that is the group that has been buying the game in the highest numbers. Video games may have been for kids at one time, but they are becoming more popular with adults all the time. The games of today are far more complex than games were when we were kids.

[Inland]

208. So are most cigarettes.

But the idea that they are "aimed" for an adult market doesn't quite wash with me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. I will be posting soem photos from the recent comicon

at my site this weekend, I recomnd you play a game, spot the kids... I am serious... most people who buy this stuff are NOT kids

[Geek_Girl]

252. My husband and my friends play those kind of games

and they are all adults, well at least physically. I don't think these games are marketed to children but adolescent and young adult males.

[MsUnderstood]

11. bad parents or bad video game

There is no regulation on who can buy the video game--stores are on a volunteer basis to check the ID of purchases of "MATURE" games.

My 13 year old could buy the game in a heartbeat.

Ignoring the extra porn in the movie, the game has violent depections of gang life in the 80s LA, which includes tagging, shooting up, protecting the homies, robbing, etc.

The point Hilary is making is if you are gonna create mature content then it needs to be regulated. If the video game manufacturers won't regulate it then the government will have to.

[ibegurpard]

14. Well, you've identified the problem

The enforcement of who's allowed to buy it needs to be beefed up. As for your comment about 13-year-olds coming home with a game like this...there's no way in HELL my parents would've allowed me to keep a game like this when I was 13 even if I HAD managed to get my hands on it. It would've gone in the trash or back to the store.

[noonwitch]

21. My parents might have

They let us watch whatever we wanted to on television, including HBO. My mom did make me take a couple of books back to the library ("Go Ask Alice" and Judy Blume's "Forever"), but I just checked them back out and read them. My mom encouraged me to read "The Thorn Birds" when I was in the same age range, however. I can sum up the plot in a couple of paragraphs:

A priest falls in love with a 9 year old girl at first sight, who's family is in his parish. The 9 year old's wealthy great-aunt decides to tempt the priests' ambitions by giving him the choice of taking the bulk of her inheritance for the church, enabling him to become an archbishop and eventually a cardinal, or letting her brother, the little girls' father, inherit the money. Guess which choice the priest makes.

The priest boffs the little girl the first chance he gets once she is of age, impregnates her, but she never tells him about it and passes the child off as her husbands'. The child grows up and decides to become a priest, but dies before he takes his vows. His mother is told by her mother that God took back what you stole from him. End of story.

[ibegurpard]

24. So what's your point?

That "The Thorn Birds" should be banned because your mother encouraged you to read it?

[MsUnderstood]

162. ulitimately the responsibility is the parents

But at some point, we as a society say CORPORATION! CONTROL YOUR PRODUCT.

That is why we have R rated movies, Cigarettes for those over 18, Alcohol for those over 21.

Don't blame H. Clinton for getting fed up with our lack of control for the distribution of a product promoting drug use, violence, sexual themes, degredation of women, gang affliation, get fed up with Rockstar who didn't take the money from the first 4 GTAs (among their other hits) and try to pass legislation that would force regulations on selling their games.

Yea, if my kid came home with the game it would be take away--but why would a company who wouldn't rent/sell an R movie, cigarettes or alcohol let my kid buy the game? Because the corporation only follows the law and their is no law.

[proud2BlibKansan]

THANK YOU

We as a society have an obligation to protect our children. I would much rather see our government doing this than waging wars halfway around the world.

[OrlandoGator]

22. You're right, such violent dirty games should be rated Mature 17+.

Oh wait...Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas was rated M. My bad.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Ahem a 17 year old is NOT a kid

he is one ywar away from being able to join the army and doing it for real... so it is for the kids sake does not wash

This is about a coporate lie, frame the issue

[ConfuZed]

140. Cut the bullspit

Kids hunt and kill in the woods everyday but we're not talking about kids this game is clearly meant for teens 17 plus if an 11 year old is playing that game its not our fault its the parents, would you like it if some freeper went to the isp hosting DU and had it taken offline because they feel we're "corrupting" their kids?

No!

[andyhappy]

4. --yawn--

[laureloak]

5. Keep up the good work, Hillary.

[GeekMonkey]

29. you think it's 'good work' to keep making Dems look bad?

Cuz this kind of shit just makes us look like idiots.

[MrBenchley]

116. Who the hell thinks it makes Democrats look bad?

I suppose the same sort of psycho who thinks companies peddling violence and sex to kids is hunky dory does....

[GeekMonkey]

158. the kind of ppl like me that dont treat kids like idiots

especially since the game is marketed to ADULTS, not kids

geez

[MrBenchley]

191. Yeah, that idiotic piece of trash just reeks of maturity...

I guess it's for people who find the intellectual demands of professional wrestling too challenging.

Racial stereotypes, violence and sex--the goddamn tripe treats both adults and children as idiots...and half psychotic idiots at that.

And it's marketed to adults the way Joe Camel was....

[SaveElmer]

45. Absolutely...

As usual the poster does not bother to look at what Hillary actually said. She was not advocating restricting the content...she simply wants the content disclosed so people can make up their own mind. And she wants the game manufacturers to live up to the agreements they made.

Rockstar fucked up by leaving that content on the game. If some basement dwelling computer geek can figure out how to get to that part of the game, Rockstar certainly should have known that. Perhaps they will be more diligent in their code review from now on before they release these games!!!

And I might add, it is not up to us to make judgements about how parents raise their kids. If parents think exposure to sexual content is more harmful than violence...that is their right...it isn't up to us or anyone else to make that judgement for them. It is important that they have the information they need to make an informed decision however.

[ibegurpard]

61. The information needed already existed

the game was rated Mature for violence and sexual and adult content.

[SaveElmer]

64. The sexual content should have put it at Adults Only...

Had it been disclosed..

[dissent1977]

87. Look at the GTA package

It says very clearly on it that it contains "Blood and Gore, Intense Violence, Strong Language, STRONG SEXUAL CONTENT, Use of Drugs". If parents read that they should know that there is strong sexual material in the game even if they do not know about this one particular sequence.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. Yes but that mni game pushed it over the edge to the

AO, which places ouside the Wally mart distribution network as well as Target and K Mart,,, oh and Game Stop

[ibegurpard]

103. So what?

Are you, with your "defending the lies of corporations" mantra, suggesting that corporate congomerate stores should be dictating the content of games? Because that is in effect what happens when all of these stores refuse to carry something and it can't be obtained anywhere else. Fine...in this case maybe you're right. What happens when the people on the ratings board decide something much more banal is deserving of an adult rating?
Can you people not see where this leads? You remind me of the people who started the whole anti-pornography crusade in Canada and the first victims of that were the gay and lesbian bookstores.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dissent1977]

130. I am very anti-corporate, but I don't think Rockstar did anything wrong

They submitted their final product to the ESRB as it was meant to be seen by the public. Some hackers got in and modified the code to unlock something the Rockstar never intended to be seen. If we start rating games based on how they can be modified then every game would get the Adults Only rating. I think the rating should be based on the game as it comes out of the package, not on the game that a group of hackers makes it into. I think this whole thing sets a really bad precedent, there are so many mods for so many different games available and people have to realize that if they download those mods they are not playing the same game the ESRB rated.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. For god sakes even Rockstar admits it now

what will it take?

[dissent1977]

137. It doesn't matter what they admitted, it still requires a modification

was that the code was in there to begin with. They had cut that sequence from the game and never intended anyone to find it, but a third party modified the code. You can not view the sequence without a modification, and Rockstar never provided that modification. The only way to access it is by installing unauthorized third party software which is actually in violation of the end user license agreement.

[nadinbrzezinski]

139. In a court of law it does matter

Think of a jury on this... ok


I know I know corps that produce what I like can never do no wrong, even when they admit it... I know, then there was Enron that did no wrong either.... go figure

[dissent1977]

145. This is nothing like Enron

If I was on a jury I would say there was no case against Rockstar here. People are modifying their software to see something they were never intended to see. The game they submitted to the ESRB was the game that got the M rating. The only way to change the rating to AO was to put a modification on it, which violates Rockstar's End User License Agreement. The rating given is based on the product in your hand at the time of purchase, not a modified version of the product.

And before you talk about juries, remember Rockstar has not been accused of commiting a crime here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. continue to give a pass to your favorite

corps and then wonder why corporations are screwing you over.

As long as this attitude remains we will continue to have corporate malfeasance at all levels.

[ibegurpard]

161. This argument is really disgusting

Cloaking your objection to this content (not available in the game as shipped and only available to unsupervised people with the ability to modify the game) in some kind of anti-corporate spew does a complete disservice to those concerned about giant corporations doing REAL harm to us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

166. No what is shocking is that people cannot see

that if we are going to hold corps accontable we have to do it with ALL OF THEM...

[dissent1977]

171. I will hold corporations accountable whenever they do harm...

But you explain to me exactly what harm is being done to me here? I could honestly care less if there is a hidden sex scene buried on my DVD which I have no way of accessing without altering the source code. Yes we need to go after corporations when they do harm, but why go after them for something as stupid as this? There are a lot of corporations doing far worse than Rockstar is and I would rather focus my energies on them. And this has nothing to do with whether I like the game or not. Even if I absolutely hated the game I would think this was absolutely ridiculous. Computer games can be modified, and I don't think the people who make those games should be held accountable for the way others choose to modify them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

173. you don't even see it

their little joke, accidental or not, has given enouigh wind to them sails of those who truly want to ban these games... the board was a voluntary agreement to self police the gaming industry... think Dobson for a second.

You will see the effect in years to come... but they have done some real damage...

Not in the usual way, water was not polluted and nobody died from Cander, but you will see

[dissent1977]

183. So I blame people like Hillary and Dobson, not the makers of the game

It is this "family values" group that is doing great damage to the rating system, because they want to rate a game based on the ways it can be modified. This is unprecedented, mods have been available for years yet the ESRB did not take them into consideration because they were not part of the software package being sold to the consumer. Once you modify the game it is no longer the same product that was sold to you, and the ESRB rating no longer applies. If they change this policy then all games will eventually be AO rated because anybody with computer programming skills can put out a mod changing the content.

[nadinbrzezinski]

188. Ok here is the minor distinctiion you are not getting

Hillary wants to make sure these ratings are followed, maybe we should take nutritional info away from pakcages too...Yes all she wsants is TRUTH IN ADVERTISEMENT

Dobson wants to ban these games, see the minor but fine distinction

[dissent1977]

192. The ratings were followed...

but when you modify a game the original rating no longer applies. The advertising was truthful, it says clearly on the package that there is strong sexual content, and the package earned an M rating as sold out of the package. It was only after modification that it got the AO rating, so there was no deception whatsoever. What the consumer got was the same code that was submitted to the ESRB, and Rockstar bears no responsiblity for whatever hackers do after that. It is actually quite common to leave removed scenes in the game code because to pull out could create unexpected bugs, it is much easier to make them inaccessable than to remove them completely. I would rather have them put out a high quality product with the removed scenes on the disc but inaccessable than a buggy product with the scenes removed completely.

[nadinbrzezinski]

195. Good code review can give yuo both

and that is what they will have to do

Is it a pain?

yes... we are not talking thousands of lines of code, but rather millions of lines of code

But that is what they can and should do...

As is yuo are thinking of consequenmces, I will give yuo one. My mom, she is 75, barely able to do email... when she buys games for her grand daugher she takes me along.. I have to rely on the rating systems to help her find something age apropriate... and my fear is that this little scandal will make her NOT trust the rating system... (on the lous side she does not live in the US... but take her and multiply it by many a parent and grand parent that does buy games for their kids)

To be honest I cannot blame her... and my niece is not quite old enough or adept enough to go looking for these things, but soon she will.

[dissent1977]

202. Well let your mom know...

that it is possible to modify the software, and at that point the rating means nothing whether it is Grand Theft Auto or the latest Barney game.

[nadinbrzezinski]

209. You are missing the point

many parents will now refuse to buy the barney game in fear of the Nekid barney mod.

that will be one of the consequnces of this. Good code review and more stringent review will take some of that wind off them sails.

But gamers are refusing to see the problem... all I want are my baubles

And no I am not makign the protect the kids argument, the truth in advertisement argument.

[dissent1977]

213. Well those naked Barney mods existed long before GTA

If parents don't like it they need to control their kids access to mods. That is all there is to it. Mods can provide a great deal of replay value to a game, but they can also hold content which is unsuitable for children. That is the bottom line, and it has been that way for many years.

[nadinbrzezinski]

215. was this content in the distri disk or not? Does not matter

whether you needed to jump throuhg hoops or not?

I knwo the ones for doom, kill barnye mod, that was not in the original distri disk, but actually chagned the code. So was the hot coffee material in there? Yes according to the company.

[dissent1977]

Either way it requires a modification

Who cares if it was made by Rockstar or a guy in his basement, either way it was inaccessable without a modification. If you download a mod you can not go by the ESRB rating.

[nadinbrzezinski]

220. the pont is this was in the distri disk

that is the argument that people are making, This is of their own making

[dissent1977]

223. As I have said repeatedly...

it does not matter if it was on the distribution disc if it was not accessable. I do not want a buggy product to defend people's moral puritanism. When ever they remove code there is a chance unexpected bugs will pop up, and even the very best programmers are going miss some of those bugs. Ask any computer programmer and they will tell you that there are bugs in virtually every piece of software. The programmers job is already difficult enough and I do not want to make it more difficult, I want quality products.

[nadinbrzezinski]

225. again given teh current environment was possesed them

to produce that to beging with?

I am bugged by the general attitude, even when a company admits wwrong doing, people still give them a pass.

[dissent1977]

231. They did not admit wrong doing

They admitted the code was in there to begin with, but that is not necessarily wrong doing. It was a scene that was made inaccessable, and just having it on there is not unethical.

[ibegurpard]

184. No, you don't see it

Making an issue out of this is not going to win Hillary Clinton any converts and is only going to alienate people who might otherwise support her.

[nadinbrzezinski]

186. If you vote for a repuke over this

you deserve eternal war and the draft

[dissent1977]

175. How am I being screwed over by Rockstar?

I don't care about this stupid sex scene that I do not have access to, it is not harming me. I know that people have sex, there are much worse things I have to worry about. There are many corporations far more evil than Rockstar is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

177. You are not maybe

they lied to get their game into general distri... what is it, they don't teach ethics 101 no more?

[dissent1977]

187. It was not a lie, they submitted the software as it was sold to the public

and this sex scene was not accessable, so it did not get considered in the rating. I don't want them putting a rating on every line of code because I don't see the code unless I modify the software. The ESRB suddenly changed their policy once the politicians started screaming, but they never rated what could not be seen in the past.

[nadinbrzezinski]

190. Even when the comany admits it,

ok as long as they produce shiny baubles no problem

loud and clear

[dissent1977]

194. Who cares what the company admitted, it was inaccessable

I don't want a buy a buggy product because some moral puritans object to something on the disc that is not even accessable without modifying the source code. And that is what we would get if we held Rockstar to your standards, a buggy product. Game designers leave deleted material on the disc all the time because removing them can cause unexpected bugs, it is much easier to leave them on but give no way to access them than it is to remove them completely.

[nadinbrzezinski]

197. In a court of law it matters

sorry

Look you live n this country and they are not as bad as they could be... the game is efectively out of circulation in Australia and I doubt it will go back in circulation after they remaster the disks

[dissent1977]

207. what law was broken here?

You are talking about a court of law when I can't find any law that was broken. The fact is that even if they had the scene planned for the game originally they removed it before they submitted it to the ESRB. Now if hackers found a way to access it again that is not their problem, they are not responsible for how others modify their software.

[nadinbrzezinski]

211. I am using the level of admision

if they admited this in a court of law you woudld have no problem, they admited it in company statements... now they will pay a price for it (the remastering of disks, and might loose distri channels)

Look I will say it again... we have to hold all corporations to a high standard, even when they produce the shiny baubles we like.

[dissent1977]

217. I do hold them to a high standard, but they did nothing wrong

They released a product which was marketed to an adult audience, and that product happened to have an inaccesable adult scene in it. My high standards include putting out a high quality product, and I do not want them to remove the code if it could result in unexpected bugs. I am much more concerned about a piece of software that is filled with bugs, than I am about a piece of software that has a sex scene which I can not even see.

[nadinbrzezinski]

219. Both can be achieved

good quality product and this removed from the distro disk.

As is... think about it with the current environemtn where violence is fine but lord help us from some sex, what were they thinking when they even compiled this in early versions?

[dissent1977]

221. It is not much more extreme than much of the rest of the material...

They have got by with so much within the confines of the M rating they may have originally thought they could have got by with this to, it would not be the first sex scene in a GTA game. Once they realized they couldn't they removed it. I don't see why you care so much about a piece of code that was not even accessable.

You say "both can be achieved" but I find bugs in software all the time. It is very difficult for programmers to catch every bug, even the very best programmers miss some of them. If they were to have to remove every piece of code someone might find objectionable it would make their jobs even more difficult.

[nadinbrzezinski]

224. It is not the piece of code perse

I don't care if it is in there or not... it is in the consequences.. it is in the fact that they admitted to their mistake and almost nobody can see the problem with this. They admitted to it after some significant pressure has to be put on them, rightly or wrongly... and now they will pay a price... but people think they should not. It is not about the code, but the general attitude I am seeing of everything goes and weill defend my favorite shiny bauble maker regardless. This has happened in the past with other companies, some of which have engaged in questionable activity and when I have tried to do something about it, I was told by other professionals, shoot that is a business loss. The problem I see is that we are willing to give a pass to ANY and ALL corporations. But hey it is the parent's fault... this passing of the buck that is sickening.

As to making the job more difficult... yes it will, and the point is? They knew it was going to be hard.

Look at the attitude, which is a classic of a fascist country... they can do no wrong. And we keep giving them a pass... because shoot it is just a corporation.

[dissent1977]

230. Believe I do not give a pass to any and all corporations

I am about as anti-corporate as they come, I am actually a socialist. But since you bring up the idea of a fascist country, I will tell you what fascism is in my eyes.

Fascism involves suppressing information. If anyone is being fascist in this situation it is those who are demanding that Rockstar puts out a product that conforms perfectly to their own values. It is the James Dobson's and the Hillary Clinton's who feel as if they need to guard us from the evils of human sexuality that are pushing a fascist agenda if anyone is.

I don't want them to remove the code if it is going to cause more bugs in the game, and that is the bottom line. They are not harming me, and I don't want any politicians telling them what is and is not acceptable on the regions of the disc which I have no access to.

Anyways I have to go, because I can not be on the internet all day so if I do not respond anymore it is not because I am ignoring you, it is because I have other things to do.

[MrBenchley]

249. Just the ones that feed sick fantasies?

"If anyone is being fascist in this situation it is those who are demanding that Rockstar puts out a product that conforms perfectly to their own values."
Geeze, I wonder whose "values" include murder, cartoon sex and racial stereotyping.



I also wonder what in this mindless and ugly time sink can possibly be considered "information."

"they need to guard us from the evils of human sexuality"
Uh, last time I looked this involved cartoons having sex...as part of an elaborately violent and ugly fantasy game. The only way "human sexuality" is involved is if gameboys whack off afterwards alone in their rooms over their own high scores...

[dissent1977]

253. I never said I approved of everything in the game...

I don't know if you ever have played Grand Theft Auto, but it is filled with social commentary. Some of it is way over the top yes, it is a game that is clearly not meant for children. I don't think the game is encouraging violence however, rather it is mocking our society's thirst for violence and sex. The humor in the game (and yes, it is one of the funniest games ever made) constantly pokes fun at everything from gas guzzling SUV's to the corporate media and politicians who represent corporate interests. I would certainly not recommend it for those who cannot seperate fantasy from reality, but I think the evils of the game are overblown. People hear the kind of things you can do in the game, and if they have never played it they do not view those things in the context of the game as a whole. It is actually much more tame than many R rated movies I have seen, although once again it is not for children. It is at times very extreme, but not so extreme that I think the politicians need to go after it like they have been.

[dissent1977]

112. The product Rockstar sold was M rated

the only way to access the AO rated material is through the use of unauthorized third party software. Rockstar should not be responsible for the ways in which third party software changes the gameplay, if that were the case then all games would have to be rated AO as soon as a mod was put out for them which contained anything objectionable. It does not matter if it was on the disc if it could not be accessed.

[SaveElmer]

124. You know...it's not really this game I'm so worried about

Obviously if parents are letting their kids play the game in the first place, either they are ignorant over the content, or don't care...in which case some added porno probably isn't a big issue.

However, I don't want to find out there is porno on my kids version of Sonic Hedgehog, or Zelda...that would be upsetting.

And I don't think it should be my job to search endlessly for internet tools developed to hack into hidden code, to cover for their shoddy code reviews. That code shouldn't be there in the first place. I want them to be more careful, and take seriously what they are producing.

If these companies can't control the code going into their product better than is apparent from this incident, they deserve the criticism they get.

On another topic...don't know if you are a baseball fan...but I say GO TWINS!!! I grew up in St. Louis Park (illustrious home of Al Franken)

[SaveElmer]

256. Graphic sexual content requires an Adults Only rating...

It's the movie equivelent of R versus X as I understand it.

[Greyhound]

151. As long as we have to live around them, it certainly is...

up to us "to us to make judgements about how parents raise their kids". Or more accurately, how they are not raising their kids.
How much more information do you think they need, beyond the label on the front of the box that says 17+?
Let's not forget the main theme of this game is to be the best homicidal maniac you can be.

[SaveElmer]

255. You missed my point...

It is not our business what parents believe most harms their children...I am not gonna say this or that should be kept out of a game because I think they should be...that would be censorship. I am saying that whatis in the game should be disclosed so that parents have all the info they need.

I would never let my kid near that game...but judging by all the howls of censorship I would think you would be consistent and acknowledge what a parent thinks is most harmful for their child would be none of your business!!!

[Warren DeMontague]

57. Perhaps your deep understanding of political gamesmanship

(as evidenced by your plethora of one line non-responses) makes it clear to you how she will be an effective leader on the National Stage when people on the right think she's the second coming of Ethel Rosenberg, and people such as myself- who constitute the base of this party and might have once considered supporting her- think she's a DLC sellout... and are totally turned off by her reincarnation as a Leiberman style war hawk and now, a self-appointed culture war nabob.

As far as I'm concerned, she should stay in New York. She is most definitely not ready for prime time, not anymore.

[laureloak]

233. You are entitled to your opinion and you can take up

page after page expressing it if you so wish, but don't belittle me because I see fit to give Hillary, a fellow Democrat, a pat on the back. Your referral to the length of my posts is just plain mean. Is that because I like what Hillary did?

[Warren DeMontague]

259. It's not meant to be "mean", but if you look back, it's a fair assesment

of how you've responded to people's intellectual arguments. To boot, I think taking someone's expressed opinion that they, as a consenting adult, don't have any problem with visual representations of other consenting adults, be they homo- or heterosexual, having sex, and responding to that with a single line like "I will pray for you" is smarmy, patronizing, preachy, and more than a little inane.

But let's get back to Hillary- if she comes out tomorrow, or monday, and uses her position as US Senator and Former First Lady and someone who gets air time to charge onto every news show that will have her, and says: "This Administration Needs to COME CLEAN with the images from Abu Ghraib that a Federal Judge has ORDERED them to release, because the American People DESERVE to know exactly what has been done in their name"

If she does that, I promise, I will forgive her for this videogame claptrap. See, I don't have a problem with ratings systems on games, or even making it harder for kids to buy games rated for adults. I DO have a problem with censorship for ADULTS, and likewise I have a problem with the fact that, as our kids (speaking of kids) die in Iraq daily in an Oil War based entirely on shoddy lies, under a White House packed to the gills with amoral goons that would make Liddy, Hunt and Colson blush, while the deficit and the environment and our stature in the world all careen straight into the shitter, Hillary Clinton has nothing more important to worry about than "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas".

[shoelace414]

8. Maddox has an opinion about it

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=ticket_to_hell

[Crunchy Frog]

13. I always like to see what Maddox has to say about something.

You are gazing into the pixels of moral decay.(From Maddox's site)

[stevans_41902]

17. Although i think there are more important things she should be

focusing her energy on, i do not like this game b/c of its sexism. Women are seen as nothing but whores to be slept with and violence is glorified. I dont know if this is something that has to be downloaded off the net, but I heard of someone talking about how they killed the hooker after they slept with her so they could take their money. Kids are attracted to these type of games even if it is not marketed towards them. And yes, a 13 yr old could buy one in an instant. Look at how many parents work 2-3 jobs - they can't police the video gamed their kids are playing.
I totally agree with Hillary's statement concerning the game:
"Grand Theft Auto has so many demeaning messages about women and so encourages violent imagination and activities and it scares parents.... They're playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them. You know, that's kind of hard to digest."

[OrlandoGator]

25. Well Goddamn...if you don't like the game, don't play it.

This game was rated M (Mature, 17+) long before this "Hot Coffee" controversy. Any parent who would provide this game to a child is irresponsible.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

254. Not to mention that the title of the game is GRAND THEFT AUTO.

You'd think parents would avoid such a title for their children. Of course, they'd probably buy a game called "1st Degree Murder" for their kids and then be shocked by the content.

[Crunchy Frog]

34. I pretty much agree with you on that.

I don't have much familiarity with the world of video games, but will take your word for it.

I do find Maddox's commentaries to be amusing, though oftentimes they can be rather offensive. That's part of what makes them entertaining, though maybe I'm a bit of a sicko for feeling that way. Sometimes he goes over the top just for the sake of being provocative, and my twisted mind kind of gets a kick out of it.

I am definitely opposed to things which demean women in that way though, (I'm a woman myself after all).

[Greyhound]

39. Well if your kid is a convicted felon, just released from prison...

to find out that an old rival has killed you, and he is forced back into a life of crime by a couple of corrupt police officers, and you live in South Central in the 90's, then this is a glorified version of your life. Otherwise it's a game that'll let you have some fun while blowing off steam, there's nothing like going on a killing spree after having to bite your tongue all day at work, to relive a little tension.

[LSK]

15. maddox writes:

" I'll be the first person to download and patch my PC version of "Grand Theft Auto." I want to shoot people in the face, bang prostitutes, traffic drugs, steal cars, and terrorize police officers without this filthy smut in my game. Frankly, I'm appalled that Rockstar would allow such wholesale corruption of our youth."

[Inland]

16. Thanks for the lecture on childrearing, and missing the point entirely.

All these rating systems do is inform the parents of--or give parents control over--their kid's purchases. Big corporations want to sell kids on sex and violence and sugary cereals, and parents who care want help competing. Is there a huge problem with that?

Beacaue all Hillary is doing is providing families with some control over their own kids versus the profit machines, it isn't merely scoring points in a republican area, unless we are now ceding all concerns relating to families to the republicans with your marvelous argument that since kids can already download all the porn they want, parents should just chill. Yeah, that's helpful.

Frankly, you and the republicans seem to be different sides of the same coin: republicans try to ban things outright because they are horrible, you try to argue they aren't so bad and what can you do, and Hillary picks the rational position: parents decide for their kids. It goes right back to v-chips, MPAA warnings, etc.

[ibegurpard]

18. Your examples of the problems just don't fly.

Kids can download porn? Why are they surfing the web unsupervised? My nieces and nephews are not allowed to do that.
They can buy games like this? Why are parents allowing them to play a game they purchased unsupervised without first checking out what it's like?
You are trying to make the argument that these kinds of entertainment are harmful to children...WHICH THEY AREN'T EVEN MARKETED TO! The tools parents need to keep this stuff away from their kids are there...USE THEM!

[Inland]

19. And it's HIllary and others who are providing the tools.

I'm not saying its a problem. Parent's are. All Hillary suggests is that there not be a hidden sex scene in the product. Why? BECAUSE IT'S HIDDEN and therefore a parent CAN'T decide what is or is not going to their kids.

The tools is all Hillary is providing, or wants to provide. Why many democrats find the entire labeling exercise to be either censorhip or nannyism is beyond me.

[ibegurpard]

20. I have no problem with labelling...or strict enforcement of those labels

And the game in question was labelled MATURE...which means children shouldn't have their hands on it to begin with. So the question of whether it contains hidden sex scenes isn't even an issue.

[mzmolly]

26. The labeling is now ADULT, as it would have been with the content

in question out in the open, in the first place.

You say mature means "children" shouldn't have their hands on it, but the question is what age children? That's for the parents who know their children/teens best to decide, and proper labeling helps in that decision making process.

It does no good to check labels if the companies find a sneaky end around as this one did.

[Greyhound]

30. Changing from 'M' (17+) to 'AO' (18+) results in no difference n/t

[mzmolly]

35. That's the argument made by those defending the corporate profiteers

here. However, there is a difference in terms of what those ratings mean beyond what was noted above.

It seems on the one hand the corporate defenders here take issue with parents not educating themselves, and on the other you say one should glance at the 17+ or 18+ and make a decision?

The M rating has a deeper meaning and so does the A rating if one examines both. This company wanted to find a way to produce an Adult game and sell it at Kmart, that's the bottom line.

[GeekMonkey]

37. no, the bottom line is raising kids that know the difference

between pixels and flesh

until you show some ACTUAL harm caused by this game (it flies out of the case and hits someone in the eye, for example) then all you are doing is trying to force your own morality on others


MY kids are smart enough to handle 'adult' content without turning into sex-crazed murderous thugs. Are yours?

[mzmolly]

43. No, I'm simply trying to say that video game manufacturers should adhere

to the current rating system.

As for harm caused by video games of this nature, the evidence is available for those who care to research it, however I suggest you look at what pyschologists are saying vs. the 15 year olds who decry otherwise.

http://www.google.com.ar/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2004-45,RNWE:en&q=harm+from+violent+video+games

As for my six year old, NO she doesn't "handle" adult content just yet. If your six year old does, you've got more serious issues than this discussion can solve.

[LSK]

44. so wouldnt that mean its an enforcement issue???

And not a legislative issue??? Last I checked, Hillary was in the legislative branch...

[mzmolly]

49. Legislators make law.

And they investigate malfeasance. ;)

Edited to add:

The word "malfeasance" always reminds me of Frances McDormand in Fargo.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. No form the corporate POV this was about Point of Sale

AO means no Wally Mart distribution for it... get it now?

[ibegurpard]

41. Corporate defenders?

Are you kidding me?
What I object to is someone telling me that something they find offensive should be outlawed. Where does that end?
I find the game offensive. I think it demeans women, is stupid, boring, and violent. I would never allow my child to own it or play it and if I found they were playing it at a friend's house they would no longer be allowed to go to that friend's house if the parent did not make changes.
Changing attitudes is rarely accomplished via legislation. I'll agree with you that attitudes about sex, violence, and women need to be changed but your solutions are scarier.

[mzmolly]

47. Nope, I'm not kidding you. That's what we have here. People on the left

defending corporate capitalism at any cost.

As for outlawing these precious games, there isn't anyone here suggesting that.

I find the game offensive. I think it demeans women, is stupid, boring, and violent. I would never allow my child to own it or play it and if I found they were playing it at a friend's house they would no longer be allowed to go to that friend's house if the parent did not make changes.

Thank goodness! Unfortunately there are many young people being influenced by these games and the attitude in our soceity toward women on many levels.

Changing attitudes is rarely accomplished via legislation. I'll agree with you that attitudes about sex, violence, and women need to be changed but your solutions are scarier.

Why is a proper rating on a game considered so frightening? Frankly I'd like to see a better rating system, but I don't know why that would scare anyone?

[ibegurpard]

52. Jesus Christ! Hardly anyone is arguing against labels OR enforcement

of those labels. But Hillary's not wanting to stop there...and neither are you if you're defending her and some of the other people in this thread.

[mzmolly]

54. Tell me where she wants to stop?

I'd like the quote in question.

[Inland]

212. That's right. They are arguing against Hillary.

Arguing against her, mostly by making up some sort of position for censorship or a cynical appealing to republicans.

[GeekMonkey]

53. you keep trying to make it aobut the corp. instead of the consumer

WE decide what to buy. WE decide what our kids are exposed to.

My kids (11, 14, 15) play these games all the time and are no worse for wear. It's probably because we, as PARENTS, are there to explain and educate them on what is a pixel, and what is real.

I don't treat my kids as if they are some retarded monkeys that will automatically do whatever they see on a game. Maybe yours are, but I don't know. I definately do not want my kids to grow up sheltered from everything negative.

[mzmolly]

58. WE decide based upon information provided VIA RATINGS.

If you choose to let your 11 year old kill and have sex in one inter-mingled a cyber frenzy so be it. I guess that's why you see no need for a rating system huh? Anything goes at your place. What about porn? Does your 11 year old watch with you?

Amazing that Chelsea Clinton turned out so well, with such horrendous parenting and all. Guess she's a rare example of a retarted child who was accepted to Harvard and Yale.

[ibegurpard]

65. The rating system is ALREADY THERE!

What the fuck is the problem? It's not like this game was a Chip and Dale pre-school romp with hidden porn content. The rating ALREADY IN PLACE on the game made it clear it was not for children.

[mzmolly]

68. Have you read anything about this case?

Doesn't sound like it.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hiddensexscenessparkfurorovervideogame

As late as last week, Take-Two had insisted that the sex scenes were "the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game." Hackers, the company said, created the scenes by "disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's code."

The scenes prompted an outcry from game critics, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who last week called for a federal investigation into "Hot Coffee."

The Entertainment Software Ratings Board began a review to determine whether the scenes were part of the game's original code and warranted a re-rating of "San Andreas," versions of which play on Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s PlayStation 2, Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox and personal computers.

"After a thorough investigation, we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game," said Patricia Vance, president of the ratings board. "Clearly the rating was incorrect, and it needed to be corrected."

Bottom line, they wanted to find a way to sell an adult game at the local Walmart, who doesn't carry adult games, they got busted, they will have to pay a price.

[ibegurpard]

72. You clearly know nothing about games...

...other than buying hook, line, and sinker the propaganda that the ratings board president is spewing. This content was not accessible without modifying the game content.
I play the Sims 2...there is a blur over the Sims' private parts that I find annoying and distracting. I found an online mod that removed it. Does that mean that the rating of the game should now be changed because there was something underneath that blur? (even though it was nothing you wouldn't see on a naked Barbie doll).

[mzmolly]

74. You have not educated yourself on the particulars of this situation.

I realize any game can be hacked. But, this company was found to have created a covert way around the ratings system. Perhaps what your saying is "everyone mfgr does it so it's ok?"

I realize you can't controll hackers, and that's not my issue, frankly. My issue is that a company put out a game with one rating. They then set about supplying people with a way to hack into the backround version of the game. A guy in the business of creating these games posted on another thread - he understands what I'm saying and agrees totally.

[ibegurpard]

78. There is NO ISSUE HERE!

If the game was rated "G" for everyone then you might have a point. But the game was NEVER intended for children and it's rating was reflective of that...additional content or not.

The position you are taking is like someone putting hidden scenes on an R-rated DVD that would otherwise have made it rated X.
If you, as a parent, don't want your children exposed to that kind of content then why would be letting them watch something rated R?

[mzmolly]

81. There is an issue here. They wanted to find an end around the current

rating system.

What you appear to argue is that an M rating = an A rating and a PG/R rating = an X rating.

We disagree.

Also, I have never watched an X film with my parents, but I have seen R movies with them on occassion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. The board does not agre with you

moreover, the AO rating means no distribution over the Wally Marts of the world... that is why they NEEDED the M rating...

As to enforcement I woudl love the rating sytem to be enforced by law the same way cigs are... the voluntary shit is not working. And yes the vice squad has far better things to do than enforce the Alcohol board or this.. but aparently this is what we need for people to get it.

[GeekMonkey]

152. no, my 11 year doesnt watch porn with me

i dont watch porn for the same reason she doesnt: its boring

see, since we have removed the taboos in our house over silly shit like nudity, it is just NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL to her or any of our kids

we took the SMART approach and dealt with the issues UPFRONT and treated the kids with RESPECT and now they are no more interested in porn than they are in your opinion on it

all you do by instilling taboos is make things MORE enticing.

it's pretty obvious, if you just open your mind

[mzmolly]

238. I'm not instilling taboos, I'm of the reality that kids are not developed

to the extent that adults are. It's not rocket science.

[gulfcoastliberal]

77. Thank god Hillary doesn't defend corporations or accept their money

I'm so glad she refuses corporate big money donations. Oh wait, she doesn't. I'm sure she never carries water for them or engages in any kind of quid pro quo.

:sarcasm:

Clinton raised more than any other member of the Senate or House from each of the four most generous industries to lawmakers in the first quarter of this year: lawyers and law firms, real estate interests, doctors and other health professionals and persons describing themselves as retired.

Of the 14 industries from which Clinton raised the most money, nine contributed more in individual and PAC donations to Republican lawmakers than to Democrats between January and March. They include traditionally Republican-leaning industries such as health professionals, retail sales and health services/HMOs.

http://yubanet.com/artman/publish/article_22781.shtml

[mzmolly]

79. Lawyers and Doctors and Realtors are not corporations.

They are employed by them.

[gulfcoastliberal]

93. HMOs and reality companies are indeed corporations

She also gets a lot of securities & business service corporate money. Rockstar games is hardly some behemoth corporation compared to say, Citigroup or Met Life - her top 2 corporate backers.

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.asp?CID=N00000019&cycle=2006

[mzmolly]

106. Compare her contribs to that of Republicans and get back to me.

eom

[gulfcoastliberal]

114. OK, how about Frist & Santorum?

1 National Assn of Chain Drug Stores $5,000
1 Oxford Health Plans $5,000
3 Gambro Healthcare $4,000

Small change compared to Hillarys corporate bucks.

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.asp?CID=N00003147&cycle=2006

On Edit: Hillarys top 3 amounts for compare/contrast:

1 Citigroup Inc $103,700
2 Metropolitan Life $85,000
3 International Profit Assoc $80,000

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.asp?CID=N00000019&cycle=2006

2nd Edit: Rick "Man on Dog" Santorum

1 Federated Investors Inc $58,300
2 Duane Morris LLP $32,750
3 Bear Stearns $26,000

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.asp?CID=N00001380&cycle=2006

All the above are up for 2006 reelection. Amazing how Hillarys corporate money dwarfs even those of the repukes - even the majority "leader".

[mzmolly]

236. Welp, start another thread. Were Hillary discussing deregulation like

some here, you'd be on to something.

:hi:

[mzmolly]

245. Let's look at the breakdown for 2004 as Frist is retiring at the end of 06

Breaking this down percentage wise to see who raised the most from individuals vs. pac contribs and other methods.

Frist:

Individual contributions ~ (62.5%)
PAC contributions ~ (22.3%)

Santorum

Individual contributions ~ (68.3%)
PAC contributions ~ (20.2%)

Clinton:

Individual contributions (83.4%)
PAC contributions (3.5%)

Frist got 62% from individuals, Santorum 68% and Hill 84%. Oh and Nader got 55% of his funds from individuals. So, Hillary is ahead of the pack on the raising money from actual people front.

I'm not losing any sleep over her contributions - personally.

[gulfcoastliberal]

176. Good golly mzmolly! No comment on Hillarys mountain of corporate money?

I got back to you with 2 examples proving Clinton takes more corporate money than her repuke senate colleagues. Kind of hypocritical for Hillary to go after a video game company while taking big corporate money from the likes of Citigroup - a major player in the Enron and Worldcom debacles (and recently had to pay billions for its role). I think Enron & Worldcom hurt a lot more people way more substantially than a video game. Now if you feel like doing any research, I'd love to see 5 bills that Hillary voted against repukes on. She is nothing but a DLC republican running as a democrat.

Finally, just for further proof for you, Trent Lott is also up for 2006 reelection. Lets compare his top corporate givers to Hillary:

Lott:

1 BellSouth Corp $11,000
2 AFLAC Inc $10,000
2 American Maritime Officers $10,000

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.asp?CID=N00003329&cycle=2006

Clinton (again):

1 Citigroup Inc $103,700
2 Metropolitan Life $85,000
3 International Profit Assoc $80,000

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.asp?CID=N00000019&cycle=2006

I rest my case.

[mzmolly]

235. No, that's another topic. I am aware that corporations donate to

Democrats. However, I am also aware that some on the left defend the same corporations that they claim to wish to regulate.

[mzmolly]

248. By the way, Hillary is a Senator from NY, she's going to get more then

Senators from some ther states. She's also a very notable politician.

However, Barbara Boxer made more from her top contributor then Hillary did:

Boxer's top contributor =

1 EMILY's List $373,814

Wellstone got more than Lott from his number one, in 2002

1 University of Minnesota $60,850

It doesn't really prove anything.

I'd prefer to contrast the voting records of Clinton, Boxer and Wellstone to that of Lott and Santorum and have a discussion based upon that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. Ues but we shoudl stop accetping corporate

wrong doing just because they are small fry... this is why Enron happened, our collective attitude regarding corporations.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Ok where did Hilllary said ban the game

she did not... the Game COmpanies agreed to self regulate wiht the rating system, she is asking them to abide by this

Now Dobson on teh other hand woudl love to ban it, and all other non chiristain and pure entertainment, shoot I will end in county lock up if he has his way... but go ahead keep saying that labelling is censorship, ok

[Greyhound]

48. You absolutely 'just don't get it'

GTA is one of the biggest, most popular, game franchises on the planet. K-mart would do anything, including losing you as a customer to have this game in their stores. This is due to the fact that this game is just a hell of a lot of fun to play.
Rockstar doesn't have to 'market' this game at all, just releasing it ensures that it will sell millions of units, 'cause it's fun.
BTW it is also one of the best values in the industry, providing 100 hours or more of game play, when most games out there are done in 8 - 20 hours.

[mzmolly]

50. Actually most retaliers won't carrry games with ADULT ratings.

I DO get it, you don't.

They found a way around the pesky adult label and they got caught.

As for not marketing it toward kids, I disagree. The reason they are popular is because they are good at marketing. This little "trick" among others is a marketing tool.

[Greyhound]

56. please read my previous post, this was not some...

'plot' on the part of Rockstar. It was an idea that they discarded, and neglected to eliminate some of the code.

And the only reason Clinton is on this is so we won't notice that she supports every corporate pork barrel bill that come down the pike. So she can continue to pretend to be progressive.

[mzmolly]

62. An investigation showed that they were dishonest. And they apparently

fooled alot of people because so many are still defending them.

As for Hillary, I think she's a moderate - and I find her position to be reasonable.

:hi:

[Greyhound]

90. I guess you don't know any of the millions that they sold out, for...

increased campaign contributions from the corporations, especially in what used to be the IT industry.:wtf: :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. Ok so I missed the marketing blitz on the teevee?

wow!

Now Kmart and Wally Mart DON'T carry AO games, by policy.. that is why Rockstar needed this to be M

[Greyhound]

136. Confused. You're being sarcastic, or you really haven't seen the...

commercials?

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. With as little teevee as I watch we actually caught the commercials

there was a marketing blitz for it.

[Greyhound]

146. yes, still is. And I'm sure Frau Clinton's distraction will drive sales

beyond Vice City's record.

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. Not the point

I am sure it will

But they still DO QUITE A BIT OF ADVERTISEMENT

[carlvs]

148. True

Especially since in the box that contained GTA - SA "M" rating, the reasons why the game was given the rating were listed, which were:

Blood and Gore,
Intense Violence,
Strong language,
Use of Drugs,

and lookie here - Strong Sexual Content....

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Yes it is

M allows it to Wally Mart

AO does not.

See the problem?

[ibegurpard]

105. No, I don't

It has to be modified. As is, the game was apparently suitable for the rating it got. If people have CHILDREN who are not only playing this game AS IS, but downloading content and modifying files to change it UNSUPERVISED then no reasonable guidelines put into place to keep adult content out of the hands of children will ever be enough to stop them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. Ok you don't

we are talking distribution disks... M is sold at Wally Mart, AO is not... that is not a distribution network you want to loose.

They should have removed that content, and as is, they are remastering new distribution disks without that code in there, to be able to keep teh M rating, read the stories, they were caught.

[Inland]

196. No, the label DOESN'T mean that kids shouldn't have it.

It means that the parents decided whether the kids should have it based on a mature label and a description of extreme violence---no sex.

That's why you have strict enforcement...so the parents can decide.

[dissent1977]

98. And she is telling us how to find it

This is nothing but political grandstanding from Hillary. If she really wanted to protect the children from this hidden material THEN SHE WOULDN'T BE TELLING THEM HOW TO UNLOCK IT. You actually have to modify the games code to get this material, there is no way to unlock it straight out of the package.

[Inland]

180. Yeah, those kids are always learning the latest from Hillary.

That's why she has her own shown on MTV.

Seriously, the parents are the ones who have to be clued in, and now.

[dissent1977]

199. Kids will read about this

Believe me this is going to be a hot topic in the video game magazines, which are read by many kids. It doesn't matter if they do not generally follow Hillary Clinton, they do follow Grand Theft Auto and this will raise their eyebrows.

[Inland]

210. Sure it will. But I bet that

without Hillary, they would have learned it faster than I, their parents, and any responsible person would have.

[proud2BlibKansan]

134. Do you have kids

or just nieces and nephews?

[GeekMonkey]

167. I have kids, smart ones, smart enough to not turn into rapists

just from a VIDEO GAME!!!!!

talk aobut much ado over NOTHING!!!!

stop treating kids like they are retarded and maybe they'll stop ACTING retarded!!!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

174. We are NOT treating them like they are retarded

Since they are children, they are impressionable. And I happen to believe their welfare is more important than an adult's desire to play violent video games.

This is far from much ado about nothing.

[ibegurpard]

179. Then TELL THE FUCKING PARENTS

the game ISN'T MEANT FOR KIDS! So why would they see it? Parents too lazy to monitor their children who want the Government to do it for them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

189. No need to yell at me

As I have said numerous times on these threads, hopefully a few parents here at DU have been educated about this game. Which is good, because nearly every elementary school aged kid I know plays GTA and loves it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

200. How abut the stores that sold it to the kids

never mind the agreement states they should NOT, but that is only voluntary

[ibegurpard]

206. Fine. I have no problem with enforcing the ratings.

Willing to stop there? I doubt it.

[Inland]

227. That's your judgment of your kids, and you can give them

anything. No matter what is banned for children's purchase, you in your wisdom can by them anything.

But you don't respect anyone else's judgment as to their own kids and what's best for those kids. Those parents don't want their kids to have the material, and your reaction seems to be that it's their fault their kids aren't as wonderful as yours. What ever.

Some kids, by the way, really are retarded, or slow, or susceptible, or immature. But you have nothing but contempt for their parents trying to do what's best in their own opinion.

[mzmolly]

23. Exactly right.

:toast:

[GeekMonkey]

32. completely wrong

[mzmolly]

36. Nuh uh!

:P

:eyes:

[GeekMonkey]

38. uh-huh!

:)
:eyes:

[Democat]

239. Hillary is screwing the Democratic Party with her right wing bullshit

She is losing Democrats the youth vote with her pro-censorship bullshit.

If Democrats lose the young voters, we lose every election.

She is damaging the entire Democratic Party by supporting censorship.

[Inland]

244. She's supporting censorship? Thanks for your help to dems, making shit up

Maybe we would win more votes of every stripe if, instead of making shit up about fellow democrats, we merely told the truth about them.

It's not about games, or censorship, but about hating Hillary Clinton. That sure seems a lot more republican than any stand she's taken.

[Democat]

250. I don't hate Hillary, I hate weak Dems sucking up the right wing

I'm sick of our party trying to suck up to Bush and the Republicans.

Hillary is becoming the poster child for Democrats who would rather join the Republians than fight them.

She is hurting the entire image of the Democratic Party with her pro-censorship bullshit.

[GeekMonkey]

28. EXACTLY! this whole issue is bullshit

It's not about the content

It's not about IDs

It's not about keeping it away from kids

It's about teaching your fucking kids what is right or wrong. If your kids understand the difference between right and wrong, no video game, movie, porno mag, or raunchy lyrics are going to change that.

Can we sue parents for raising sheltered idiots?

No?

Then leave the makers of video games alone!

My kids are not so stupid as to have their values system challenged by a video game.



I am sooo sick of all the people whining about 'my kids shouldnt be exposed to that'. Well, you know what? THEY SHOULD!!!!

They should be shown violence and sex and taught the consequences of each. They should not be sheltered.


The sexual repression in this culture is why we have so many serial rapists and peadophiles. STOP WITH THE PURITAN BULLSHIT ALREADY!!

[Greyhound]

31. I can't believe you consider yourselves progressive.

Whatever the question, the answer is freedom. :grr:

[GeekMonkey]

33. here here!

[mzmolly]

40. Freedom for corporations to do exactly as they please!!

Woo hoo! After all, anything less is anti-capitalist!

[ibegurpard]

42. If you think Hillary is the anti-corporate godsend

and that's why she's taking on this crusade then you have some serious blinders on.

[mzmolly]

51. I think Hillary is a balanced individual.

But, I don't think the people bashing her for wanting what's in the best interest in our children are thinking quite clearly. ;)

[ibegurpard]

55. I'll decide what's in the best interest of my children, thank you

Hillary and other insincere, grandstanding politicians can keep their noses out of it.

[mzmolly]

63. And you'll make that decision how?

Based partly on ratings I presume?

[ibegurpard]

67. Yeah...you ARE aware that games are already rated right?

And that the game in question was rated unsuitable for children, right?

And I also wouldn't allow them to play a new game without me supervising them at first to see the content for myself.

[mzmolly]

71. What about teenagers? PG movies are rated as unsuitable for childre

but we sometimes make exceptions for our daughter, as many kids movies are now rated PG.

HOWEVER, I don't make such acceptions with R or X movies (obviously.) Can ya understand that distinction?

I'm glad you supervise your kids. Perhaps some single mothers working several jobs don't have the kind of time you do, and simply check the rating to determine if it's appropriate for their 15 year old son or not?

I imagine some parents decide M is ok for their older kids, but an A rating would not be? That's their choice. And, they have a right to have faith in the current system. This game had an M rating, and a way to add content that put it into the A category.

I, like you, closely monitor my childs games/activities/media. Some here call that un-warranted "censorship" and raising "retards" ... so as you can see there are a variety of opinions.

[Chovexani]

76. As someone who once worked in a game department

If I had a dollar for every clueless parent who came in the store with a screaming, whiny 9 year old kid and bought a copy of GTA3/VC, Resident Evil, Devil May Cry, <insert any other M rated game here> to shut them up, I'd be posting this from my own private island, sitting on the lap of my poolboy. I'm not even talking about tween aged kids, I mean little ass crumbsnatchers who probably can't even read half the dialogue in these games.

Even though it wasn't my store's policy, I used to tell these parents that M rated games were meant for older teens to adults, and that the games are way too graphic for little kids (I know that in the case of Capcom M-rated games like Devil May Cry and the Resident Evil series, they also have a splash screen before the title sequence warning of explicit violent content). Nine times out of ten, I got abused/ignored...by the parents. :wtf: These are the same rocket scientists who bring their kids to 10pm showings of things like the South Park movie (no lie. I saw it with a friend from work when it came out, and there was a little girl dancing in the aisles to "Unclefucker").

The thing is, the whole ratings system is BS to begin with, whether it's movies or games. You can't totally rely on them.

Lucky for parents who actually give a damn and want to do their jobs rather than have the government do it for them, we have this big shiny thing called...TEH INTARWEBS. If little Jane or Johnny just has to have God of War, you can do this nifty thing called "Googling" where you type in "God of War review" and voila! You can find out about the game's content and decide if it's something you want your kids playing.

But you know, that takes work and stuff. :eyes:

[mzmolly]

83. I agree, I would PERSONALLY not rely totally on ratings.

But, I might google what the various ratings mean and make a decision based upon that?

[Warren DeMontague]

70. There are a few issues here;

one is, if this is really about just making the game not available to minors, I don't really care about that. Some things aren't for kids. If parents want or need help to make sure adult content isn't sold to their kids, I'm fine with that... Okay, fair enough.

If this is really about waging a war on all the rampant nekkid boobies in our society, "cleaning up" all the smut and trying to keep consenting adults from being able to see sexual content- I'm not saying it is, but certainly a few of the responders to the threads here are fantasizing that it is- well, I can't get behind censorship. Consenting adults should have the right to watch smut, although I would recommend getting actual porn as opposed to going through a video game.

But lastly; and this is the crux of the biscuit, in my mind- what pisses me off most about this is that Hillary and co. can't seem to find anything more important to worry about right now. Our kids are dying for a bullshit oil war in Iraq every day (talk about obscenities).. The WH is rife with scandal and misdeeds and bullshit and prevarication and everything else.. We've got a guy up for the SCOTUS who might just roll back forty years of personal, reproductive, and privacy rights (but on the plus side, the smut-ban happy anti porn crusaders here will probably find their jobs quite a bit easier, although the tradeoff may be living in a country where Gay sex is punishable by prison time, and the birth control pill is a controlled substance) ...yeah, anyway- with all this happening, during a period in which the Constitutional Democracy of the United States is in what I consider the biggest crisis of my lifetime... and Hillary Clinton can't think of anything more important to worry about than some dirty scenes hidden in a video game?

I'm sorry, but that's a crock of shit. She should be taking her valuable time as a "leader" in our party to call for investigations into the DSM. To call for the firing of Karl Rove. To hold Bush's feet to the fire on Iraq. To ask where the hell are these new Abu Ghriab images that the court has ordered released.

This is a waste of her time, and ours.

[mzmolly]

73. You made a compelling case.

:hi:

All points that I respect fully!

[oldcoot]

86. Senator Clinton's bill

I believe that Senator Clinton's bill provides penalties only for selling explicit games to minors. Adults should still be able to purchase any game they want if Clinton's bill passes.

However, I agree that there are more important issues to worry about. I am tired of Democratic and Republican politicians who focus on these bullshit issues instead of focusing on more important issues. I also am sick of the "what about the children" crowd who insist on focusing on these minor issues while ignoring the real problems facing children.

[Greyhound]

133. Just look at the shiny object.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[Inland]

193. You confuse what Hillary does with what DU gets incensed over.

The junior senator in the minority party has plenty to do, but this is the best that someone can pull out to show that she is in fact either a) a reactionary conservative or b) a person who isn't a reactionary conservative but pretends to be one in order to win elections or c) a person practicing some other kind of deception, you fill in the blanks.

Only on DU could a liberal senator get pilloried for taking a popular position that is consistent with everything else she has done in her career.

[GeekMonkey]

46. not freedom of corporations, freedom of PEOPLE

like the 99% of us that are not too stupid to handle sexual content in a video game

and i AM including kids in that, because, if it werent for our culture's repressive attitude towards sex, kids would be much healthier and have MUCH less hang ups about sex

we would also see a massive drop in sexual predation

[mzmolly]

66. We would see less sexual predation if children are taught that others are

not disposable.

THE ANSWER - is in teaching kids to respect themselves and others. This is not done by glorifying violence and sexism.

[GeekMonkey]

156. there you go with the 'glorifying' bullshit

try seperating the game from real life, my kids can do it, why can't you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

160. Actually that is an issue discused by people inside the industry

but shoot violence and sex does sell.

[mzmolly]

237. Who said *I* can't?

Were talking about young kids here, not adults.

[Warren DeMontague]

60. Are you being sarcastic?

Like freedom is a bad thing?

[Greyhound]

108. No, since when was progressive defined as...

"I know what's best, and you're too stoopid to decide for yourself"?
I weep for the future.

[mzmolly]

246. Did you weep when they started rating movies too?

Hope not, we have far more to "weep" about than wanting an effective rating system.

[Warren DeMontague]

257. It's not, in my book. Not the kind I consider myself.

I don't have a problem with rating videogames or making sure certain content isn't sold to minors.

But across the board censorship and Nanny statism is something I can't really abide.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. Freedom for corpiorations to do as they please

with no consequences, I see... how progressive of you, NOT

[Chovexani]

59. Word!

She is really, really starting to piss me off. I used to like Hillary despite being to the left of her, and I always used to defend her when people talked shit about her. Not anymore. I guess that shows just how big a nerd I am. I defended her pandering in the past, but she just fucked with my hobby and all bets are off.

Being a constituent of hers, I called up her office and let them know that, as a grown ass woman who enjoys video games that are made for grown ass people, she just lost my support for the '08 primary. Far too many people (including a sickeningly high number of people on DU) seem to think that gamers are all 14 year old boys, and that all games are made for kids. It's 2005 and it disgusts me that we are still fighting this "Seduction of the Innocent" horseshit from like 50 years ago, only now it's video games instead of comics. I would love for the recent surveys to make more press (they show the majority of American gamers are adults in their 20s and older).

Comics IMO never really recovered from the Comics Code. And it's getting to the point where, if the censor-happy bastards in this country continue to stay in power, we are going to see a Games Code before too long.

As someone who clearly remembers Nintendo of America's draconian censorship policy in the '80s-mid '90s (the closest thing to a Games Code we've had), I sure as hell don't want to go back to the days of "spoony" bards, people falling down instead of dying, green blood and cafes instead of pubs.

On Edit: Hillary is my senator. Doesn't she have better things to do with her time? Like, you know, make sure NY is getting the proper anti-terror funding from the pork barrel that is DHS? Real life actual trains were fucking blown up in London, but she is more concerned about a freaking video game than making sure the people she is supposed to be serving (that just happen to have a giant freaking bullseye painted on our backs) are adquately protected from jihadists instead of from boobies? A CIA agent was outed by the president's right hand man, real actual people are dying in Iraq, and this is the best she can come up with? "OH NOES, BOOBIEZ!" :argh:

[Ripley]

69. This is getting so out of hand.

Instead of twisting and contorting her words and actions why the hell don't you people put aside your sexist crap?

And if you think pornography should be in videogames sold to kids, you are either a kid yourself or completely unaware of basic standards in this country. Ever heard of an R rated movie? There's a reason for that. Or do you think we should allow 4th graders to rent XXX movies from Blockbusters and watch it 24/7?

And get a clue. It's not only Republicans who have kids and want some of the more outrageous shit to be labelled. Not banned. Not censored in adult material. But an attempt made at keeping the overt violent and pornographic material away from kids, instead of this sneaky shitty thing being done by trying to force it upon kids too young for it.

[mzmolly]

75. Here here!

:toast:

[Threedifferentones]

80. I agree that Rockstar should have been upfront about the content in its

game. I also think they should be punished to some degree for hiding things from the ratings board. I do not, however, think that this issue should garner anyway near as much attention as it has from the public or the media, and especially not from politicians who should be spending their time talking about issues of real substance.

The game was already labeled as Mature, the added content is not that shocking, and plenty of people DO want to censure our entertainment, so let's not give them any more help than they already have from the repugs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. Ahem Rockstar's actions added

gale force winds to them sails, As I said before I WORK in the industry, this will have repercusions

[Threedifferentones]

96. You're right,

it was pretty stupid for Rockstar to do this. How could they not foresee this? Still, the fact that this controversy was bound to happen given America's current political climate simply shows, once again, how crazy people can be.

I wish our senators would fight to change people's puritanical attitudes instead of pandering to them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. Changing puritanical tendenncies cannot be done

by politicos... it is all a cycle, really, and it is starting to shift... problem is that Spers is scaring the living daylights off the small but vocal minority, which is neither moral or good

[Chovexani]

82. Clue-by-four

Look, I don't think anyone sane is arguing that 10 year old kids should be able to waltz into a store and buy an explicit game. The problem is that the people who are screaming "WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?!", yourself included, are utterly clueless about games and gamers.

FFS, the outrageous shit is already labelled. All the GTA games with a non-topdown engine (read: 3 and onward) are already rated M for christsakes. Do you know wtf "M" means? Mature. As in, not meant for 10 year old kids. As in, not meant for anyone under the age of 17. We are not talking about a 6-way cannibalistic furry orgy that was hidden in Super Mario Sunshine FFS. We are talking about explicit content in a game that is rife with explicit content, and already has a rating that reflects that. Nobody is trying to force a goddamn thing on anyone's kid. The last time I checked, Tommy Vercetti was a fictional character, not an actual Rockstar employee that puts a gun to people's heads and forces them to fork 50 dollars over to a store and shoves a game in their hands. Dante will not hold your Grandma Millie hostage and force your kids to put DMC in their PS2 (though Vergil might, heh :P). Albert Wesker won't shoot your dog Fluffy with T-Virus if you refuse to give your 8 year old money to buy Resident Evil.

Jesus on a trailer hitch.

[Ripley]

127. Not true Chovexani.

I don't have kids and I'm not screaming "what about the children." I said people are taking Hillary's words on this and twisting them. The only people making a big deal about this are the people here at DU crying she's trying to take away their porn video games. :eyes:

I mean really, what Crusade is Hillary on? I bet I could find a dozen other Democrats who support trying to crack down on shit like this because their constituents complain about it. But everyone is out to get Hillary - in fact I see some DUers won't vote for her in a national election because of this. Come on.

I don't think she is doing anything outrageous. I understand that Adults play games...the man I live with is probably older than you and plays a lot of computer games, and shock! I play some too!

I guess I just understand that 'M' is pretty meaningless and I've seen my 12 year old nephew playing them right under my sister's nose and she had no clue.

Sorry you got so angry by my post. I was not trying to be a prude as so many of you would like to make this issue about.

Peace.

[CrazyForKucinich]

84. You don't get it.

The moral fabric of society has crumbled already. If you want Wally and the Beav over to play after school, start building a time machine.

Turn on the fucking TV. Go to the movies. Put on a Britney Spears record...because you obviously don't fucking get it. It's not videogames...this is what society wants...freedom in all its Britney Spears' breast implants glory. If you choose not to partake in that freedom...that's great! However we don't want to hear you complain because you don't agree with our lifestyles.

The stance you're taking is just like Fundamentalist Christians trying to preserve their eutopian society by screaming down everything that makes up the homosexual community or the government trying to take control of a woman's body by not letting her have an abortion.

Your pure society is lost. I advise you to stop what you're doing and gather some books on Tesla, Einstein and John Titor to get you started on your time machine.

This is not about a videogame...this is about art, speech and freedom to do with one's life as one sees fit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. And a corporation lying about content to the rating board

but I guess the new values also include a free pass for a corportation that lies.

Holy crap are kids these days not taught ethics 101? Oh never mind I know they don't

This also includes creeping fascism, where people just give corporations a free pass

[ibegurpard]

94. Oh, shut the hell up with your "defending corporations" crap

It's about the most disingenuous argument I've ever seen on this board.
This is about government sticking their nose into what I choose to entertain myself with.
Ratings are fine. Enforcement of those ratings are fine. So if we have those will you be satisfied? I suspect not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. Ok have you read what Hillary wants to do

some background, the rating board came as an agreement to AVOID government interference.

What she wants (and I want) is ENFORCEMENT of these ratings and a very good supervision of this.

Why don't you just go ahead and read the bill?

And yes you are defending malfeasance because they produce something you like. Connect this to Enron please.

The reason they get away with it, is we as a society tend to think Corporations can do no wrong...

[Warren Stupidity]

99. About ratings

I don't want anything 'rated' by the government. It is censorship, plain and simple. That includes movies, music, radio, television, books, magazines, newspapers, the internet, and games. My job as a parent is to decide what is and what is not appropriate for my children to do. It is not your job, or the governments, or k-mart's.

If rating systems are voluntary, fine. Once they start having laws enforcing them then they have crossed the line.

The Democratic Party, when it decides to take on family values, heads directly to the censorship table. It's Tipper Gore syndrom, and it is political suicide.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. the Ratings for games are voluntary

but if they don't work, then they will have to get invovolved, the gaming industry agreed to them... they just want that agreement to be fully carried out

By the way, ratings are truth in labeling... why don't we stop putting nutritional data on the side of cereal boxes? I mean that is what Kellogs would love too

[Warren Stupidity]

243. They aren't voluntary when

there are laws mandating that merchants have to abide by the supposedly voluntary ratings. I have, as I said, no problem with voluntary ratings. But as you said above "if they don't work, then they will have to get involved" so then, obviously they are not voluntary and it is censorship and a violation of the 1st amendment.

You don't eat books. Watching a movie is not going to poison you. Oh, and I am old enough to remember that brief period of time in the 70's when we actually had 'truth in labelling' and corporate america freaked out because they had to actual list all the ingredients. Now you get the sanitized version of the crap you eat.

[Greyhound]

117. Are you at all familiar with the predecessors?

GTA, GTA II, London Underground, GTA III, GTA Vice City? They're all, quite purposely, politically incorrect, controversial games.
GTA III and Vice City were games of the year and sold gazillions of copies.

They have also all been used for political fodder to distract constituents from the fact that their legislators were selling them out as fast as the contributors could write the checks.

[CWebster]

88. Amusing that even when she pitches softballs

She still is a lightening rod.

God forbid she actually address pressing issues where real life people are dying and bleeding real life blood and are being raped and tortured--with her blessing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

122. And I would like to tell her

Thanks for helping to protect our kids from violent media.

[GeekMonkey]

165. hahaha - nevermind protecting them from poverty

its boobies that are the REAL problem

good grief people, GROW UP!


my kids are smart enough to handle it, why arent yours? what are you doing wrong as a parent that your kids are SO impressionable that you can't counter the message from a fucking video game?

[proud2BlibKansan]

170. My kids are grown

It is my students I am concerned about.

[mzmolly]

241. Here here!

:toast:

[sunnystarr]

128. With a mature rating is GTA any different

than an X rated or R rated movie that by it's very rating has sex and violence? We don't need government to be parents to our children. I can do that just fine tyvm.

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. Not the issue

the M rating allows it to go into the usual distri networks, the AO prevents it from going into the same stores

This was a business decision and they should have removed this code from the final distribution disk

[Greyhound]

168. it seems you are more interested in keeping it out of walmart

than the 'issue' of the content.
What happened? Did Rockstar or Take Two not hire you?
And if WallyWorld doesn't carry it do you really think that matters? We're all ranting about one of the most popular franchises in the entire industry. You believe anyone that wants it won't get it 'cause WallyWorld doesn't carry it?
I also find it hilarious that we're all bent out of shape over a BJ in a game that rewards the vilest of anti-social behavior, but God forbid we see sex, *gasp* :crazy:

[nadinbrzezinski]

182. ethics is not taught at schools no more

they did not reveal this content to the board because they KNEW it woudl keep them out of wally world with an AO Rating, they got an M rating, They are, by their admision, remastering disks after removing this content in order to stay in Wally Mart... sheesh that should tell you something

And I don't care for a BJ... I suspect that the board was a little torqued an pushed the rating over to AO as a warning to others

[MsTryska]

135. to be honest.....

this latest kick of her's makes me even less willing to support her if she runs for president.


she's heading into Tipper Gore territory, and i still haven't forgiven Tipper.

[Greyhound]

142. I don't think it's about "the children, for God's sake, think of the...

children!" nor labeling, nor enforcement.
It's about game companies not feeling safe to produce games that it's audience wants to play 'cause some breeder won't supervise their knee-biters.
BTW I haven't bought this one yet, it's a little beyond my rig's ability to play smoothly. Rest assured, however, as soon as I upgrade, or replace, it's at the top of my list.

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. methinks you are confusing the issue

this is not about game companies not being able to produce things, NOBODY, except Focus on the Family, that is, is calling for censorship

Seems that truth in labeling scares the shits out of people... and corps can do what they want to do if they produce nice shiny baubles you like

[Greyhound]

147. it WAS truthfully labeled. The scenes are not accessible without

going to a lot of trouble. There is absolutely no way to accidentally get them. Maybe it was an over sight, maybe it was meant as an easter egg. The point is still that it is parents responsibility to know what the kids are up to.
Keep your children out of my life.

[nadinbrzezinski]

159. no, this is not about the children

They themselves admit it... what is so hard about this>? THEY LIED to the Board, the AO rating would keep it out of Wally Mart, you understand that is a HUGE distri network... it would also keep them out of Australia.

As to the kids argument, see this little thing that it takes a whole society to create community and raise children is now missed by the Me and I generation... so sad, why the country in part is going to hell in a hand basket. But the children cannard and the libertarian cannard makes me wonder, am I readying CU?

[distantearlywarning]

143. This whole topic is really starting to piss me off.

Bad enough that I have to put up with the fundie idiots telling me I'm going to hell because I play D & D, but now I have to listen to hysterical screaming mothers on the left side of the fence complaining because some downloadable patch shows boobies to their 17 year olds? Or because some videogames have *gasp* GUNS in them???

:eyes:

I never expected this kind of rubbish from progressives. It really pisses me off. Is there one party in this nation that truly stands for freedom? Or is everyone just interested in forcing other people to subscribe to their own personal, petty BS?

I'm fucking sick of it. And sorry, but no, I don't really give a good goddamn whether your 17 year old sees virtual nudity. He probably sees worse at school every day. And I doubt that it will scar him for life any more than blowing up virtual cop cars or using a virtual sniper rifle on virtual pedestrians will. And if you are so damn worried about any of this, perhaps you should spend a little more time monitoring YOUR CHILD'S violent videogame playing in general and a little less time trying to interfere in the lives of the other adults around you.

[MsTryska]

155. I actually agree.....

it's what unsettles me most on our side of the fence.


can't stand being told:

who to pray to
what to watch
what music to listen to
what games to play



both sides can get out of control if allowed to.

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. This is not, as much as they keep telling you, abut nudity

this is about a company not telling the review board that the distri disk had content taht would make it AO...

This is what this is about.

As to DnD, I have my answer to them, I am Jewish, going there anyway.

[Greyhound]

181. are you the one that is in the biz?

if so you know, or should know, the incredibly long, unbelievable complicated, process involved in putting out a game of this scope. Do you know how long the development cycle for this game was? Literally 100's of ideas are proposed, and at some point in the process discarded. This was a mini-game fragment that was eliminated for whatever reason, and some or the code was left behind. There are no calls to this module left in the final game, that's why you would have to go and find the mod, and download and install it, in order to even see it.
I shudder to think what would happen if someone decided to scour through all of the code in many of the apps I've been involved with. We left all kinds of crap, as well as dozens of easter eggs, in our programs. Let's not even talk about the back doors left in almost all of the software you use daily.
It's not a matter of lying so much as a matter of not knowing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

185. Code review

it is done and my question is... why develop this content to begin with when they wanted an M rating? So the playesters coudl have something extra? They knew the current environment in the country, killing and maiming if fine but lord help us from sex.

[Greyhound]

201. Hahaha, you're joking right?

code review, hahahaha, I'm going to forward this one to my friends still in LA, banging out the code (I think one of them still has a job).
:rofl:
yes the corporations that have gobbled up all of the good software development companies are well known for sparing no expense on positions that contribute nothing to the bottom line.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ibegurpard]

203. That's because she's not being honest in her objections

Her arguments are laughably disingenuous and I can't believe she thinks no one can see it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

214. that is nice

it is you guys who are being desingenious here... next time yuo argue taht Enron is evil I will use the same standard I use with freepers... it is the hypocrisy stupid

[ibegurpard]

216. Whatever

Anything you say from this point on is completely negated by the crap you spewed on this thread.

[nadinbrzezinski]

218. Of cousre, don't hold them accountable

as long as they produce shiny baubles.

As I said next time you complaint about Enron and Halliburton I will be reminded by your defense of this... it is the hypocrisy stupid... and bush thansk yuio, mision accomplished

[Inland]

222. Yes, they are interfering in your life by controlling their kids. WTF?

Yes, I know you are irritated by the hysterical parents. But it's really got nothing to do with you and nothing to do with the fact you don't care what their kids see or don't see. Nobody is asking you to do anthing. Nobody is interfering with you at all. You don't manufacture or sell these products, and you aren't a member of the family that uses them. Mind if they care?

And nobody cares about your opinion on what will or won't scar them for life. They just don't. Mind your own business. It's their kids.

And more advice to monitor your child's violent videogame playing: being able to trust a label means that looking at a label IS monitoring. What you are really suggesting is that a parent should just view the entire game and learn about any other little tricks available----isn't it sweet that your policy of non-interference with other people's lives just mandated a hundred hours of parent time staring a video screen every year?

You know, somebody is minding their own business, and it isn't you.

[ibegurpard]

228. Yes it IS interfering in my business

because I DO play games. A LOT of them. I'M the demographic these companies are shooting for...younger adults with lots of disposable income...not your precious 10 year old bobkin. The fact that games like this are advertised in places primarily directed at MY demographic doesn't mean that your kid is always going to be shielded from it. That's where it's your job to explain to them why they can't and shouldn't have it. And this whole hubbub about the additional content is crap...the game was already clearly labelled unsuitable for children.

[Inland]

240. So you'll be able to tell me which games you can't play now.

Or maybe that you have to fill out eight page forms in triplicate.

Look, nobody's interfering with you and your precious games. Your nose is all out of joint because you are a BIG BOY and feel bad because some mommies and daddies are using their free speech rights in a manner in which you disagree. Whatever. Feel free to have all the contempt you want for them and their kids, but don't make up crap like your life is being interfered with as the excuse to do it. Even a precious ten year old can see how specious that is.

[laureloak]

251. Wow. What a post.

What a shame it can't be just the parent's influence on a child. Hillary was right. It takes a village to raise a child and like it or not, we are all a part of the village.

[oasis]

149. Hillary's doing just fine, but thanks for your suggestions.

:hi:

[Greyhound]

205. Just stare at the shiny object, there's nothing going on here...

that concerns you. You probably couldn't understand these big, complicated issues anyway. :nuke:

[Dr Fate]

154. 4. Why cant you even MENTION the DSM just once?

Oh that's right- we have GAMES we need to talk about.

[sellitman]

157. I say "VERIFIABLE PAPER BALLOTS to her. and ........

Stop wasting your time and energy.

[stanwyck]

198. Why not just buy porn?

that's what other adults do...they buy porn.
Why expect a video game to supply "hidden" porn images?
It just seems so juvenile. You buy a game and then go through the little secret squirrel "aren't we cool" tricks to access the porn.
Just buy the real thing.
And then this won't even be an issue.

[MrBenchley]

247. Because the kind of porn that has murder fantasies in it too

is rare, illegal and expensive...



...while this dreck is a cheap thrill for small-minded chowderheads with flattened affect..

[The Revolution]

242. Yeah this issue pretty much does it for me.

I'm usually pretty lenient on the party moderates. I listen to Ed Shultz and defend him on here all the time.

But this is just over the line. If Senator Clinton wants to act like a republican then I'm going to treat her like a republican. She won't get my vote. There's no way I can support her now.

[Technowitch]

260. Locking

This is a continuation of a previously locked topic, which was previously locked for turning into a flamewar. This one has gone down exactly the same path.

Those wishing to convey displeasure with Senator Clinton's recent statements regarding violence in video games might do best instead to write or call her office directly, rather than posting 'open letters' here.

Enough already.

-Technowitch
DU Moderator