I'm through with Bush, Rove, etc

[justinsb]

I will continue to post articles, op-eds and discuss issues but Bush is not going until 2009, even if he's impeached he'll be replaced by someone just as bad. There isn't going to be a 'special presidential election', even if Rove goes he'll be pardoned and replaced by someone just as bad and Rove will continue to work for the GOP.

The Best way to deal with Bush is to have as many people as possible, as informed as possible about as many issues as possible. I don't believe that , even in 06 Rove is going to be an issue and IMO it's been talked to death here already. I find it sad that this is where people are spending their time and energy when there is so much else going on but I've seen many good posts, on many important issues that go largely unnoticed because everyone is busy going on ad-nauseum about Rove or about 'just how stupid and evil' the administration is (as if that's a subject for debate).

So I'm through. No more posts from me about Rove (or any internal administration stuff), no more responding to polls, signing petitions, etc., I'm done with it. There are much larger issues out there and that's where I'll spend my time.

[SteppingRazor]

1. There are much larger issues? Such as?

I mean, what with Bush being leader of the free world and all -- God help us -- isn't the corruption of his administration a relevant issue? What's so much more important?

[justinsb]

6. Leader of the what?

He isn't the leader of anything but the US. The whole "leader of the free world" is just rhetoric at this point. Curruption is certainly an issue, but it's not the only issue and it's been talked to death.

How about the fact that global warming is happening faster than anticipated and the US is doing nothing (nothing at all) about it. New Orleans (at the very least) will be under water by 2050. All US coastlines will lose real estate.

Oil prices aren't coming back down - ever. Everyone is operating at full capacity, supplies are dwindling and demand is going up every single day. The US economy and almost the whole of US society are built on the false assumtption that oil will never run out, but it is running out and the US is doing nothing (nothing at all) to adjust.

The US water supply is dwindling, this is going to be a much larger issue than oil and it's going to be an issue very soon. Not only will there not be enough water but the loss of water and increase in temperatures are going to mean that the US has to cut back on agriculture.

Global pandemics are out there brewing and the US is doing nothing to prepare for them.

China and India are going to be the world's new superpowers. That's not a maybe or an if/when, China is basically already there and the US needs to decide how to live in a world where China is a economic and military superpower and the US is not.

just to name a few.

[SammyWinstonJack]

8. Just when I thought it wasn't possible to be any more depressed

the I currently am, I have to go and read your post. :cry: :-( :scared:

[shadowknows69]

39. That's the problem

I think our leaders would take us into nuclear doom before givning up the #1 spot> I really fear that's how it might go down someday. China, Russia and europe finally get together and tell us to cut our shit out and we give them an ICBM shaped middle finger back.

[justinsb]

40. The #1 spot is already gone

This is just a few more moments in the spotlight, bought with money borrowed from China. It's a very Courtney Love kind of moment.

[shadowknows69]

42. Ok J I agree with you.

just try not to get the message to the cowboy with the nuclear button. We have to get rid of his ilk first.

[justinsb]

46. lol...don't worry, I won't tell him

I'm just trying to get a message out here (that there are way more important things going on than Rove) and I figured "Rove Doesn't Matter" would garner some interest where little else does.

[donco6]

2. Oh c'mon. Admit it. It's just too damn fun!

Too stupendously ironic . . . too karma-confirming . . . too bloody funalicious not to post on.

[QuettaKid]

3. Fight the Power!!!

[donco6]

5. See what I mean?! eom

[sandnsea]

4. It's our best hope

I am generally not much for dirt throwing. But this is different. If we can make them the party of Nixon, Iran/Contra, and the Plame Leak; then it's a pattern. Throw in McCarthy and compare it to Schiavo. Throw in Delay and compare it to Teapot Dome. This is who they are. Corrupt corporate bastards.

[justinsb]

7. even if you are right

I don't see it changing anything significantly.

[canadianbeaver]

10. then carry on with yourself......cause everyone else wants to...

stay for the fight....NGU NGU NGU.....NEVER GIVE UP.....YOU JUST DID!!!!!!!!!

I STILL BELIEVE......FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS AMERICA!!

[justinsb]

11. No, I didn't give up at all

However I'm not so distracted by the pretty lights coming at me that I don't notice the train they're attached to. Good luck grabbing hold of the headlight.

[canadianbeaver]

12. I hear ya......but stay close then....cause the wind will blow your mind

just make sure you check in every once in a while....let us know how things go!

[justinsb]

15. I'm not going away

I'm just going to ignore the Rove stuff and bang the drum on other things people need to know about. People generally ignore these messages, or respond to them by pointing out how evil Bush is, but many of these problems were not created by Bush, and no one in either party is proposing any serious solutions.

[canadianbeaver]

24. you know that if we all really looked at the big picture.....

it would scare the hell out of people.....I mean I have been thinking about this for years..years....I have cried a million rivers for what has been done and is being done on this planet...I guess we can only do what we can....its gonna be a hell of a fight to change anything on this planet, and I mean anything...with all the people who are in power..and I mean real POWER...how do you go up against that....you would have to have some great WILLPOWER to accomplish it...not to mention someone willing to risk it all for the betterment of the planet/people...are you willing to risk your life for another..?

I feel that a BLOODY revolution would be the only way....

[justinsb]

27. I don't think it's the only way

I think the number of truly evil, evil people in the world are actually very few. I think there are alot of people who are narrow minded, self absorbed and somewhat greedy, but even alot of them can be reclaimed. What has to happen, IMO, is that the big picture needs to really get out there. People have to face reality (and not the "Survivor" kind) but real reality and they have to figure out what they want to do about it, because doing nothing is signing your own death warrant.

[canadianbeaver]

36. I suppose many have signed their warrant......

now...to figure out what to do about it...NOW THATS THE QUESTION!!

WHATS THE ANSWER?......I haven't a clue....

[justinsb]

63. Well...if I were suddenly in charge and could act with impunity

without having to get it all approved, there'd be a giant tax hike, massive spending cuts, more investment in alternative fuels and sustainable technology than in the military, research into desalinization plants (where to put them, how much it'll cost, how to minimize the environmental impact etc)., huge increases in fuel efficiency and emissions standards...for a start, along with a withdrawal of all US troops from every base and port in the world until they were all back on US soil and then a scaling back of the size of the military.

Then a world tour of diplomats to see what it would take to mend fences and right past wrongs in the world.

[linazelle]

9. LOL nt

[Karenina]

14. J-Babykins has just had what I call

a SNAPPING experience. Don't laugh at him, PLEASE join me in giving him a big hug! :grouphug:

[Goldmund]

13. Not a bad variaton on the "I'm leaving DU" theme

:eyes:

[justinsb]

16. I didn't say I was leaving

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4168439&mesg_id=4168825

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4168439&mesg_id=4168547

[wli]

17. it looks pretty hopeless here, too

I'm not sure why I bother to be honest. I figure one more vote or something.

[justinsb]

18. It's not hopeless at all

but people have to direct their energies in (IMO) a little more useful fashion

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4168439&mesg_id=4168547

These are serious issues and even if Bush goes it won't change anything unless he is replaced by a real leader, with a solid backbone and some real solutions.

[Cooley Hurd]

19. So, US national security doesn't mean much to you, eh?

Fine. I'm betting you don't live anywhere near NY ot LA. This is ALL ABOUT the US being laid bare to terrorist attacks because Rove DESTROYED our ability to track WMD's when he outed one of our most important assets in the field of WMD's.

Your eye is WAY off the ball, justinb...

[justinsb]

20. Sorry but...

I have no soft spot for the CIA, they are in my opinion a terrorist organization and Homeland Security cannot really protect you. If someone is willing to kill themselves in an attack they can find a way in and they can find a weapon. No politician will tell you that, but it's reality. There are other very serious issues that you can do something about but, apparently replacing Carl Rove with someone equally evil is more important to you.

My eye is dead on the ball, you're not even playing the right sport my friend.

[Cooley Hurd]

23. But, we're talking about Rove outing an asset that was working to keep...

...the US safe from a nuclear terrorist attack. To me, that's the BIGGEST THREAT to the security of US citizens. You're very naive if you think that such an attack isn't possible, and you're fucking HEARTLESS if you don't care what happens to our softest targets (like our coastal cities).

Give up on the Rove angle... let him destroy our ability to defend ourselves against such attacks. What do you care?:thumbsdown:

Oh, and QUITTERS are NEVER my friends...:eyes:

[justinsb]

25. Yep that's a threat

not the biggest one, and not the most certain (some of them are just plain going to happen), but it's a threat. Republicans are the only sheeple.

[Cooley Hurd]

26. No, it's the BIGGEST threat!

Educate yourself about loose nukes, and AQ Kahn, and the black market for such devices, and then sit on the West Side Highway and tell ME if you feel safe...

[justinsb]

28. Your city will be underwater in 50-100 years

nothing can be done about that now, it's going to happen. Global pandemics will, very likely, kill more people in your city in the next 10 years than a nuke would - the US is doing nothing at all to prepare. Oil is not going to go down, the price of gas is going to go up, and up taking the price of everything else with it. The US is going to run out of water, and lose a great deal of it's agricultural land forcing the import of most foods (at great expense because of the cost of oil) forcing the majority of americans to spend the majority of their income trying to get food. The US is deeply in debt, tax cuts and across the board spending cuts will be needed soon just to balance the budget. China will soon be the worlds dominant military and economic power and the US can't do anything to counter them because they hold so much of that US debt. The US is doing nothing about any of this. Not the GOP and not the Dems.

There are a great many threats.

[Cooley Hurd]

29. Well, with that reasoning, we'll all be dust in 1200 years...

Lamest...rebuttal...ever...

Let me ask you, WHY did you feel the need to dissuade DUers from following the Rove story? Pretty stinky, if you ask me...:eyes:

[justinsb]

31. People here don't seem to talk about anything else

My point originally was that there are a whole lot of issues to deal with and what happens to Rove is not going to make a huge difference one way or the other.

However, I don't really see any point in continuing to talk to you. You have - without displaying any intelligence at all - been nothing but insulting and since trying to teach sheep to read is a thankless task, I'm just going to put you on ignore but, just so someone somewhere has told you - you are as much a part of the problem as any freeper.

[Cooley Hurd]

32. Boo hoo...

"I can't debate, so I'll put you on ignore... waaaa!"

Whatever... whether you like it or not, the Rove story is VERY important because it gets to the very heart of why the Bush admin should be removed from office.

C ya! :hi::eyes:

[Mairead]

30. Overstating the case just a little, are you?

"Rove DESTROYED our ability to track WMD's when he outed one of our most important assets in the field of WMD's."

'Hyperbole' is the only descriptor that seems to fit here.

[Cooley Hurd]

33. Um... not my words - did you watch the hearings today?

Obviously not.. :eyes:

If you did, you'd know that Rove and Libby's actions did ENORMOUS damage to our ability to protect the US from nuclear terrorism.

Guessing you're not in a port city, either...

[Mairead]

58. Not your words? Like hell----I cut-and-pasted them from your #19

They're exactly your words, unless you've got a mouse in your pocket doing your talking for you.

As to the damage...long, long ago --it was during the Wurm Glaciation, as I recall-- I used to snoop for the USA just as Valerie Wilson did more recently. Any time they liked, the bad guys could have fitted me up with a pair of concrete valenki and dropped me into one of the local bodies of water, but they didn't bother because although I held a position analogous to VWilson's, my death would have caused only a momentary hiccup in a small area of the intelligence flow. That's all any one person can handle: a small area. Intelligence services don't put all their eggs in one basket. It's not James Bond with his flash cars and natty suits foiling SmerSh, it's a thousand people like 68-y.o. Irina Poniatowska with her aching feet and high blood pressure who reports that a friend tipped her off that next week she's losing her job cleaning the officers' quarters, and oh by the way everyone seems very busy but it's all at night. Which some VWilson or MMacDonald then tries to evaluate in light of all the other hundred or thousand wee scraps coming in.

So don't kid yourself. VWilson was not that important. Nobody is.

[hippiegranny]

21. maybe what you're actually trying to say is

that you intend to think globally and act locally? not a bad place to go. as long as we all do our part to spread good in some corner of the world, all is not lost. there will always be plenty of us left to keep an eye on the evil bushco.

[justinsb]

22. I already do that

What I find frustrating is that unless it pertains to Carl Rove or someone else in the administration directly, it is hard to drum up much interest here. Bush will go, but unless there is a strong, creative, intelligent, diplomatic and progressive leader to follow it will do no good. I am not even in the US anymore. But I do have friends and family there and I get the sense that people are so busy watching the monkey dance that they don't see the piano falling toward their heads.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=141662&mesg_id=141662
(for more on the piano). :hi:

[The Great Deceiver]

34. self delete

[The Great Deceiver]

35. probably most likely

the folks that are concerned about the things that you seemed to be concerned about are too busy being activists that they haven't the time nor energy to be keyboard commandos (still an important part of the fight).

Maybe you should go get involved in some local rallies, calls to action, LTTEs, Amnesty International, Greenpeace, environmental action groups, and what have you, if you're not already. All politics is local and, as you yourself pointed out, there are many issues that outline our fight right now. But think of Rovegate as one crack in the facade that could bring down this administration that has severely rolled back most advances made in the very fields that you seem to care so much about. Surly you can understand that.

[justinsb]

37. I am involved in and have been involved with

such groups for many years now. My problem is that people don't seem to want to talk about anything but Rove (and related issues.) and I don't think, in the grander sense the Rove issue will make much difference, even if the administration comes down it won't matter unless it is replaced by something much better.

I'm not even in the US anymore, but I have friends and family there that I care about. The US, imo, needs a real leader, with vision and backbone (someone far superior to Bill Clinton) and the only way that's going to happen is if people really understand what is happening and are prepared to empower such a leader. I get the sense with too many people here that putting a D any D in the white house is more or less the endgame unless the person who takes over is as I described above, the problems facing the US are going to continue to get worse and the window of opportunity to fix any of it short of complete disaster is closing rapidly.

[Cooley Hurd]

38. Hmm... and got a Clinton-bash in there, didn't ya?

Talk about "outing..." :eyes:

[The Great Deceiver]

41. Now your tone

has taken a completely different turn...you've gone from concerned activist to defeated nihilist. Which is it?

[justinsb]

44. Those are the times we live in

It can well be both. I'm not defeated but nihlism is the likely outcome of not seriously, and I mean seriously addressing these issues. Not for me, but the US is in huge trouble and neither side appears even willing to admit it. Neither side even seems terribly interested.

[The Great Deceiver]

49. by the same token

it is concievable that activits here (and abroad, for that matter) can focus on rove/plamegate with equal ferocity and intensity that they can continute fighting the facist tendencies of this admin that manifest themselves in the errosion of civil rights, rolling back of environmental regulation on big-business, emperialistic pursuit of the worlds oil reserves, etc., no? or is it one or the other?

[justinsb]

54. One or the other apparently, but that wasn't my idea

I've already devoted a lot of time and energy to Rove, just to appease people here but Rove really doesn't make much of a difference in the grand scheme. It's people here who've largely decided it is the one and only thing worth talking about or doing anything about.

[The Great Deceiver]

69. that's some circular logic you've got there

you're upset that "we" (yourself included, by your own admission) have devoted too much time and energy on rove/plamegate. So your intention is to call all of us out for spending (wasting) too much time on rove/plame, including yourself.

I'm sorry, I'm not qute sure where you're going with this.

But really, now's your chance, now you've got this forum and this thread to which many are responding, so ... to what do you propose we turn our collective efforts?

edit: spelling

[Rebellious Republican]

51. Personally I would prefer to have a Pres that gets a Blow job once in

awhile and gives us eight years of prosperity.

As opposed to a pres that lies about the reasons for putting our children and our nation in harms way by having an unjust, unprovoked, illegal, immoral war.

Who has also sold our country out to big business for personal profits and gains.

Who also is trying to tear down our old age Social Security net in order for Wall Street and big business to profit even more.

Who also is tearing down environmental laws that was actually started by a former republican president Richard M. Nixon, that protect us from becoming a pestilent waste land for big profits.

Who also commits treason during a time of war, making us common people ( The ubber wealthy certainly do not have to much to worry about sitting in their ivory towers) that much more vulnerable to terrorist attacks.

Who also runs one of the most influential and powerful nations on earth, and has squandered that influence and power only to the detriment of peoples and nations around the globe.

Should I keep going on or are you getting the picture. I am all for taking this cabal down anyway we can.

Joe Sixpack does not understand the complexities involved with this CRIMINAL and what he is doing.

Joe needs something simple and easy to grab onto in order to expose the rest of his treachery.

If Karl Rove is the KEY that will allow us to remove this blight on mankind, then so be it!

[justinsb]

53. I do understand

but until there is another election he will only be replaced by someone just as bad and there are other, much bigger problems out there than Rove. Clinton was fairly right wing anyway, much of the prosperity of the 90s was not Clintons doing, it was because there was a huge technology boom and rapid growth in Asia (they bought the technology, learned how to use it and are now taking over that industry). Clinton was not good on social programs, wasn't good on the environment, wasn't good on ME relations, and really didn't solve a single problem in the long term.

[The Great Deceiver]

55. ....

:popcorn:

[Rebellious Republican]

56. Well let me ask you this, do you really believe that we actually have

elections in this country?

Do believe that if this current admin is left unexposed, we will ever have free elections.

Also who would you have for a President, seriously?

[justinsb]

59. Pretty much

There may be some places where elctions are tampered with but if the country wasn't so close to 50/50 it wouldn't matter. There have, honestly, always been places where people cheated. It just never mattered so much before.

There are a number of good people out there - Kucinich, sereral members of the Congressional Black Caucus, and many others.

The other thing is, if you can put real issues on the table, have a real discussion and change people's minds on issues - social issues, the environment, health care etc., elections won't matter that much. People in Washington follow public opinion fairly closely. If there is enough demand they will act, regardless of who it is (or at least enough of them will act to get things done).

[Rebellious Republican]

61. Justasithought Justinsb.

You have all the talking points down to an art form.

So do I, being a FORMER republican myself.

:crazy:

[justinsb]

65. Never, for a day in my life

have I been a republican.

[Rebellious Republican]

66. Here is a news flash for you................

My sis, who lives in DC is a registered Democrat, you ought to hear her spew forth the rightwing bile.

Her husband works at the Pentagon, go figure.

[Lecky]

70. I don't think you understand the current mindset of most

Americans right now. I agree that Global Warming is very important but you think most people in this country give a rip? Half of them are still convinced it doesn't exist!

No question that Clinton was too right for your taste but over half the country would disagree that he was too much of a Republican. Right now the USA is too the far right of the political spectrum, I would LOVE to have more of a Green candidate be the POTUS...but do you really think that's going to happen anytime soon? It could happen but the democrat will have to campaign in a manner to attract everyone from the left as well as those who consider themselves to be Centrists.

Some of you people forget that the far left is not the mainstream in America...although I wish it was. We are approaching fascism and it seems like most Americans are fine with that...scary times. We need a strong realistic Democratic leader to lead us in the right direction and we need all neocons to be purged from power ASAP. They are leading us into WW3...

[Rebellious Republican]

71. Well said Lecky! N/T

:toast:

[Minstrel Boy]

43. I agree

Karl Rove can go down, and nothing will change. Because as rich as the story is, the Plame case remains political, and politics - as demonstrated by recent election cycles - doesn't really matter all that much anymore.

The issues are deeper, and darker, and Rove's fall won't address them so much as distract from them.

[justinsb]

45. Thanks, glad someone does

but...it appears that you too are in Canada. :shrug:

[The Great Deceiver]

47. Yes

both of your objectivity allows you to examine the situation from the outside looking in; a luxury those of us mired in thie 8 year nightmare do not have. The prospect of the architect of both of bush's "election victories" actually facing criminal charges is a step in the right direction. yes the the dangers contained within the neocon movement and the PNACers go way deeper even than bush himself, but this is a step in the direction of rooting out that evil and not one that we can afford to sit are hands and hope for the best. My $0.02

[justinsb]

48. Thanks...and yes it does give a different perspective

But the US is far from being the only place to suffer from Bush and from an outside perspective the problems in and with the US didn't start with, and are unlikely to end with *

[Media_Lies_Daily]

50. Way to quit, quitter.

[justinsb]

52. Sorry too rediculous for a serious reply

enjoy your sheephood and welcome to my ignore list

[oasis]

57. Rove/Plame involves the "damage of intelligence assets" according to CIA

testimony. Thers is nothing more important than national security.

[justinsb]

60. That may be, it depends on what you are trying to protect it from though

people are not the biggest threat

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4168439&mesg_id=4168547

[oasis]

62. "people are not the biggest threat" to national security?????

[justinsb]

64. Nope

at the moment I'd say it's a virus (H5N1 influenza) and over the next decade massive oil and water shortages are the biggest threat.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

67. Yeah, it's just a third-rate burglary.

oops

[Lecky]

68. I see things a bit differently

I agree, the Democrats can not win purely on Bush's failures or because of the current corrupt state of his administration BUT if the democrats were smart they would certainly take advantage of it.

Remember all the people who fell for the Republican shtick about bringing back morals and values to the White House after Clinton? This whole Rove/Plame scandal is a perfect example of the corrupt thugs that are leading this country right now. They should be exposed, and little by little I see it happening. I see Republicans waking up to the horror that is now their party. I don't see it as sticking up for the CIA, but shining a light on the fact that the repukes will shit all over anyone that gets in their way. Even if that person happens to be working in our nations best interest.

I do agree with you that we should be spending time on larger issues that we face as a nation. In order to win any elections Democrats really need to work on their message and their solutions that set us apart from the repukes.

I'm not going to stop talking about the current scandal...it's getting way too juicy. I'm also in awe at what this current administration has been able to get away with and scared to death of the direction that they are taking us.

[Cary]

72. The whole idea of smear politics must be discredited

I know that smears have been with us forever, but that doesn't justify the practice. If you think about it Karl Rove stole from us our right to an election based on the issues.