Here we go again: Sims 2 content "worse than Hot Coffee," says lobbyist

[aresef]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/22/news_6129609.html

How do you like your hot coffee? If you're Jack Thompson, you like it scalding game publisher's laps. The Miami attorney and anti-gaming activist has done his share to see that games do not fall into the wrong hands--and lately, those hands have belonged to almost everyone.

Thompson was among those who spearheaded the recent effort to slap an "Adults Only" rating on Rockstar Games' Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, and he's often been on the forefront of many other gaming issues, several of which have targeted the crime-spree GTA franchise. In the past, he has represented defendants who have been the victims of GTA-inspired crimes, including a triple homicide of three police officers by an 18-year-old boy in Alabama.

His beef with San Andreas? Unused code in the game that depicts sexual acts. These minigames can be unlocked by using game cheat devices or patches available on the Internet.

-----------------------------------

Go to stopkill.com and email this conservative idiot. I already sent him one, the text of which is below.


--------------------

How can you expect publishers to control what people do with their games? It says right in the End-User License Agreement of every game on the market that consumers should not modify content, and the publisher is not liable if they do so. In Grand Theft Auto San Andreas, the sex minigame, while it was indeed in the game, was INACCESSIBLE, I repeat, INACCESSIBLE to the player without several hours of legwork, and said intercourse was fully clothed without the infamous modification. How many kids have the attention span and the technical knowledge to do it? Not many I know. If anybody should be punished in either this case or the Sims 2 scandal you're trying so hard to start, it's people like the modders who publicly release these hacks and the manufacturers of devices like Game Shark and Action Replay, NOT the publisher.

Additionally, you are quoted by Gamespot.com as saying, "The sex and the nudity are in the game. That's the point. The blur is an admission that even the 'Ken and Barbie' features should not be displayed. The blur can be disarmed. This is no different than what is in San Andreas, although worse." Did it ever occur to you that it might have been an artistic thing? "Comical," as the article described it?

And the average gamer is not a kid. In fact, the average gamer is around 30. Not 12. Stop trying to spread the misconception that games are children's toys and publishers are trying to destroy children's morals.

Find another form of free speech to villify, you ignorant, conservative nutjob.

[JohnKleeb]

1. Some people really have too much time on their hands

[Deja Q]

147. Or, perhaps, not enough on their hands...

:hide:

:yoiks:

[lala_rawraw]

2. Oh please, I play this game

To relax, building really cool houses and lofts. What can I say, I am a builder at heart.

[jane_pippin]

37. Me too, for the same reasons

Although I don't have 2 yet, so I don't know how nudie sims 2 compare to nudie original sims, I highly doubt it's anything remotely close to "shocking."
Oh please indeed.

[FreedomAngel82]

139. I love the Sims too

I play them all the time. I have a bunch for the computer (the various levels and all that) and one for my XBox and I'm twenty-three.

[merwin]

3. LOL, I posed the "What about the SIM's" post last week.

Apparently I'm ahead of my time :-)

Honestly, these people have WAY too much time on their hands.

[Tux]

4. I say censor them

It takes a village to raise a child so the parents don't have to. I hear that non-stop. Let them censor games then ban them. Let them censor kid's books and ban Harry Potter then all fantasy/SF. Let them ban all things that may cause kids and adults to think.

Nanny state doesn't work. If parents can't raise their kids, they shouldn't have kids. That simple. Nanny state is no different than communism - everyone owns the kids.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. You also do not know waht communism is either

free clue, the USSR was not communist, in spite of the propaganda

[Ian David]

5. The guy is a LIAR to boot...

Speaking about Sims 2...

<snip>

In the statement, Thompson says, "Sims 2, the latest version of the Sims video game franchise... contains, according to video game news sites, full frontal nudity, including nipples, penises, labia, and pubic hair."

<snip>

Thompson doesn't seem to care. He cites a cheat code that can remove the blur which covers nudity. "The nudity placed there by the publisher/maker, Electronic Arts, is accessed by the use of a simple code that removes what is called “the blur” which obscures the genital areas. In other words, the game was released to the public by the manufacturer knowing that the full frontal nudity was resident on the game and would be accessed by use of a simple code widely provided on the Internet."

It's not just the adults that are liberated from their wardrobe. Sims kids can also be nudified, "much to the delight, one can be sure, of pedophiles around the globe who can rehearse, in virtual reality, for their abuse."

<snip>

Jeff Brown, vice president of corporate communications at EA, in response to the accusations, told GameSpot, "This is nonsense. We've reviewed 100 percent of the content. There is no content inappropriate for a teen audience. Players never see a nude Sim. If someone with an extreme amount of expertise and time were to remove the pixels, they would see that the Sims have no genitals. They appear like Ken and Barbie."

More:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/22/news_6129609.html

Jack Thompson is...
A Lying sack of crap. A Lying sack of crap...

If he wants something to be concerned about, check-out the sexually aroused frogs in the cartoons produced by James Dobson's Focus on the Family

January 22, 2005
Erect frog on Dobson kiddie site
By Bob Cesca

Horny toadDr. James Dobson is on a homophobic crusade against SpongeBob for promoting tolerance towards the gay community.

However, I clicked over to Dobson's Family.org website and onto his kiddie section called "Ribbits". Cute enough, except for the frog with the giant erect penis -- WHAT?! A purple frog with a big ol' woody. Dr. Dobson! An erect purple frog? A horny toad, if you will? Gasp!

Write to Dr. Dobson or simply dial 1-800-A-FAMILY and ask him why he's forcing children to look at frog boners.

UPDATE: More Dr. Dobson frog boners found. Thanks to commenter DiDi.
http://www.realitybasednation.com/blog-archives/2005/01/more_erect_frog.html

More:
http://www.realitybasednation.com/blog-archives/2005/01/erect_frog_on_d.html

[Zhade]

22. "frog boners" - one of the funniest phrases I've ever heard!

:rofl:

[anotherdrew]

6. and nudity harms in what way? why should anyone care?

Damn to hell with these asshole, what's next censoring kids imaginations?

[MercutioATC]

44. Beating up a hooker to get your money back isn't "nudity".

...but it IS part of GTA...

[ibegurpard]

59. And I think it's pretty clear that most of us

although we agree that GTA is pretty disgusting, aren't ready to make any moves to ban it because it simply provides ammunition for people, as this article clearly demonstrates, to take it further and further.

[MercutioATC]

63. Nobody's talking about banning it...just labeling it.

[ibegurpard]

67. Uh, this guy is talking about banning it

Did you read the article? And the games are already labelled.

[dissent1977]

90. It is labeled

It has a giant M for 17+ on the front of the package, and on the back it very clearly says the reasons why it has the M rating. "Blood and Gore, Intense Violence, Strong Language, Strong Sexual Content, Use of Drugs". Looks pretty clear to me that this is not a kids game just by looking at the package.

[MrBenchley]

69. Remember, the corporation deliberately hid objectionable content

in order to get a softer rating...

[MercutioATC]

73. Why not just remove it? If it's on the CD, it's accessible.

[MrBenchley]

74. Why put it there and lie about it in the first place?

And it's not like the rest of this puddle of pus is anything but objectionable in every way....look at the "progressive values" on display here...

[MercutioATC]

75. Well, I believe they have every right to sell it...

...I just want the contents accurately disclosed on the packaging.

[MrBenchley]

77. Exactly...

If there's sick adults who want to play a violent racist game and whack off afterwards, that's their loss. But trying to pass this off as something it is not is a crime.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

127. And

If there are closet Right Wing people trying to pose as something they are not, let them. It's there loss. Or stupidity. We should all just ignore them.

[Maru Kitteh]

148. I'm the biggest left wing freak I know but I am all for regulating and

properly labeling filth like this to keep it out of the hands of kids.

I've seen it. It has no more redeeming value than the collective wet dream rantings of a pack of white supremacists. If "adults" want to degrade themselves, whatever, have at it, but you should have to prove you are 18 to buy it. Period.

[dissent1977]

91. It is not as simple as many think to remove it

Removing code from a computer program can result in unexpected bugs. It is much simpler to leave it on there and make it inaccessable. Besides if people see the other stuff that is in the game, I don't think two fully clothed cartoon charachters making sexual motions is going to do them any additional harm. There is much worse stuff in the game than this scene, it is not a kid's game and it says so on the package.

[aresef]

130. It doesn't just say in the ratings box.

Let's not forget, the game is named after a felony. And the box art isn't exactly flowers and puppies either.

[aresef]

78. It wasn't deliberate.

From a great article on allgames.com:
"This is a common practice in any computer industry for QA reasons. If you actually remove the code, you run the risk of breaking other functions. Even in my (non-gaming) profession, there's functionality I've coded and left in the final product even if we took that functionality out - we just remove any calls to it, but the actual function is still there."
http://www.allgames.com/mt/archives/2005/07/oops_did_you_sp.php#more

[Jack_DeLeon]

122. Ah, MrBenchley, anti-gun and anti-games....

how very progressive of you, comrade.

[FreedomAngel82]

140. Well then by that notion

I guess that Ken and Barbie shouldn't have anything either. I remember when I was young I'd play with my dolls in the bath-tub when I was a little kid and would take off their clothes and all that. :eyes: I guess by that notion I was scared for life eh? Because of Ken and Barbie naked in my bath-tub. Oh brother.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. The average gamer is not a kid?

Somehow I find that very hard to believe.

[JohnKleeb]

8. depends on which game

I got in to gaming around when I was 6, the first games I played were World Series Baseball, the controversial Mortal Kombat, and Street Fighter.

[aresef]

12. Well it's true.

[democracyindanger]

20. From an industry report

http://www.theesa.com/files/2005EssentialFacts.pdf

Average age of gamers is 30;
35% under 18
43% 18-49
19% 50+

Also, women above age 18 are a larger percentage than boys 6 to 17 (28% and 21%, respectively).

[Zhade]

23. It's a fact.

Lots of people have posted evidence of this fact in the last week. Do a search, you'll definitely see that adults are the majority of video game consumers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. True, they are not

for the PnP maerket the average age is 16, but the market is all the way to 25, then for hte most part they have gone electronic.

[Zhade]

28. See post #20. For video games, it's a fact.

NT!

[GeekMonkey]

27. average gamer age is 29

look it up

[Xithras]

110. And climbing.

The average age of video gamers is climbing as GenX'ers age. I'm 31 and grew up on Atari, Nintendo, and Amiga games, and I still play as often as my own children. Unlike older generations, we still consider it to be a legitimate form of entertainment and not just "kids stuff".

Eventually, as the older generations die off, the age of the "average gamer" should stabilize at about 35...the age of the average American.

[Kraklen]

29. Then you've got a lot to learn about video games.

Like Geek Monkey said, the average gamer is in their late twenties and rising.

It's a generational gap, not a youth thing.

[ibegurpard]

56. Then, quite simply, you're ignorant.

And can't be educated about it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. I am not ignorant of the fact

that nearly every kid I know plays GTA. Yes, it may be labeled as an adult game and yes, it may be sold only to adults, but kids play it and love it.

Now I happen to believe that allowing kids to play a video game which glorifies crime, shooting cops and beating up on women is just not a very progressive value. But you are more than free to disagree. :eyes:

[dissent1977]

92. The gaming market has changed a lot

Today the average gamer is a male in his mid twenties. Look at all the sales figures and you will see that is the group that buys the most games. There was a time when games were primarily kids material, but as the technology has increased games have become much more complex and there are many games out there today marketed almost exclusively to an adult audience. Not all of these games are filled with violence either (although GTA is), there are many non-violent strategy games that would fly way over kids heads.

[proud2BlibKansan]

94. And who are we getting those sales figures from?

No reason for the gaming industry to exaggerate about the age range of gamers. :sarcasm:

[dissent1977]

105. No offense, but you obviously know nothing about gaming

There are millions of adult gamers, and EVERY set of sales figures you can find on video games will back up what myself and others are saying. It is primarily adults buying these games. It is a FACT that most gamers are adults, anyone who says otherwise knows nothing about games.

You find me proof that children are the primary market for video games today, I guarantee you will not be able to

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. Of course adults buy them!!

How many kids have the kind of money it takes to purchase them? Besides, we have this rating system that limits the sale to adults.

That does not however, explain the number of GTA games we confiscated from kids at my elementary school this past year. It does not explain the number of kids in our school library who tried to access web sites with GTA cheat codes on our computers.

I don't need to know much at all about gaming to know that GTA is NOT appropriate for kids in elementary school. I have seen and played this game. That is all I needed to know.

I have tried to tell you guys repeatedly that the current system is NOT working. Kids can and do play this game and they love it. As long as this continues, more and more parents (especially the fundies) will become concerned enough to lobby for that censorship you so desperately fear.

[dissent1977]

111. I agree, the game is NOT appropriate for elementary school kids

No one here is arguing that it is. It is the same situation however with many R rated movies. Kids do see those movies even though they are not supposed to. I do not think it is fair however to limit adults access to these materials, and that is what stronger restrictions would do. I do not want to see the day in which I have to go to some porn shop to check out an R rated movie or an M rated video game. Parents need to control what media their kids have access to, and I realize that is not easy to do all the time but I don't see any other way around it.

Grand Theft Auto is clearly labeled M for mature, and I think any parent should know it is not a kids game just by reading the label on the package. Rockstar has always made clear it is an adult game, and their marketing has been aimed at an adult audience. Of course, there are many kids who are still going to want to play it and there is nothing anyone can do to stop that aside from restricting their access to it and the parents have to take the responsibility to do that the best they can.

And as far as the sales figures go, most of the people buying the games are in their mid to upper twenties. Most of them do not have kids yet, or if they do the kids are very young and would not be able to comprehend the types of games these adults are buying. The rating system restricts access to M rated games but most games are rated either T (teen) or E (everyone). Adults are buying many of these games as well. I just graduated from college, and I can tell you that a lot of college students play games, it is not just kids.

[proud2BlibKansan]

115. Glad we agree

Most of the solution lies in parent education, and since Hillary endorses that, I am all in favor of her stance on violence in media.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

128. So

why aren't you out there lobbying for prohibition again? After all, there is an age restriction on alcohol , but kids still get it and drink it and they love it. So what's the damn difference? How about you hold some of the parents of the kids you supposedly confiscated these games from responsible?

Also, how did these games come to be confiscated? And what is the number of games confiscated? Were the kids whipping out their play stations and plugging them in while in class or were they just sitting around ogling the the cover of the game? In the midst of all those kids trying to access the internet for the cheat codes were any of them looking for anything else restricted other than GTA cheat codes?

People try and make it sound as if the entire 5-16 age range of kids are doing nothing but playing GTA and looking for cheat codes at school. Why you ask, because it's their soap box of the moment.

Now if you will excuse me, I'm going to play Mortal Kombat, Deadly Alliance on the X-Box with my son.

[proud2BlibKansan]

131. Because these are adult entertainment,

there is no need for prohibition. My problem is with the gaming industry, which markets the games for kids, not just adults. I also have a concern about parents who alow their kids to play these games UNSUPERVISED.

Games are confiscated at school usually due to a dispute between two kids. They bring the games to school and sell or trade with their friends. Since we are a school and not a swap meet, we do not allow that. Our school district policy also forbids video games and other electronic devices at school. (This is typical of most school districts.) They are a big distraction we don't have time for. But unless the game is causing a problem, they usually are not confiscated. We certainly don't search backpacks and desks for illegal video games and other devices.

The kids try to access lots of inappropriate internet sites at school. For that reason, we don't allow them to log on to the internet unless they are supervised.

[democracyindanger]

113. Dumb argument.

The ESA study was for its industry members. It's ridiculous to assert that they'd lie to themselves about the demographics of their consumers. You asked for proof regarding the average age of gamers; you got it. If you're so certain that the report is false or exaggerated, then go ahead and provide contrary evidence that's comparable to a scientific survey based on 1,500 respondents.

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. Think about the agenda of the gaming industry

before you trust their market research.

[democracyindanger]

120. I look forward to your evidence

instead of the anecdotal, arched-eyebrow finger-wagging stuff you've been offering up so far.

[proud2BlibKansan]

121. The only evidence I need

is what I see at the elementary school where I work. Kids play this game. And they love it. Now if I was an adult who enjoyed this game, I would want to keep it away from kids before the fundies go crazy and get it banned permanently.

You can call that finger-waggling all you want. I am just trying to tell you that this could end up being a much larger problem in the near future.

On the other hand, if you think it's okay for kids to play a game that involves crime, shooting cops and beating up on women, then we have nothing to talk about.

[aresef]

143. Then their parents need help, for it's their responsibility

to, well, take responsibility. The parents need to be smart enough to realize that maybe a game named after a felony might not be good for their child.

[aresef]

142. But it's a generally accepted fact that gamers are getting older.

[jobycom]

9. Am I the only one who sees this as a product liability issue?

I don't get the outrage against Hillary on this one. I have no idea who Jack Thompson is or whether I'd like him, but I don't see that as the issue.

GTA admitted they had code in their game depicting graphic sex and violence, yet they rated the game as M. They cheated, in other words. What's to stop Rockstar from writing this code deliberately into the game knowing a mod will unlock it, and knowing that will make the game sell more? (And for the sake of argument, I'm pretending I don't already believe that's what they did.)

I've got nothing against violent games, and certainly nothing against sex, and I think Thompson is an idiot claiming a video game made some kid kill three cops, but I also see no reason corporations should be allowed to get around advisory rating laws. We all get upset when corporations violate labor laws, or consumer safety laws. Why do we defend them for breaking these laws?

If it's the laws we don't like, we should try to change them, not encourage some corporation to cheat the laws to get richer. And even if GTA's graphic stuff was accidental, that shouldn't excuse them. Ford didn't purposely make their Pinto explodable, but they were still liable.

No one banned GTA, no one banned the Mod, and no one's talking about banning Sims. They are talking about putting the appropriate label on them. That's cool with me. I hate cheaters, and I hate corporate cheaters most of all.

Flame away.

[aresef]

11. Not quite

The content was likely axed during QA. To avoid breaking other parts of the game during testing, they removed all calls to it. It was inaccessible without the use of EULA-breaking techniques. Additionally, there is no nudity actually on the disc. When accessed on the PS2 version, according to Gamespot, the intercourse is fully clothed, meaning that's the one bit of new content the Hot Coffee mod DID add (or take away depending on how you look at it).

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. No you are not the only one

[Zhade]

26. You have to break the EULA to get at the content.

Those violating their EULAs don't have a position from which to complain.

The culprit is the one who is breaking the EULA in this case, not Rockstar.

Does Rockstar bank on modding and cracking? Maybe. I don't think they did this on purpose, since they left the characters clothed. People had to jump through two hoops to see the sex in full, and that doesn't seem very conducive to silently encouraging modding to sell more games.

But even if they DO bank on modding, they STILL aren't liable, because the mods require the player to break their EULA, which clears Rockstar of any culpability.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. For god sakes they admited it in their press stattement

[Zhade]

62. My point was that they're not legally liable.

And they're not.

[Chrisduhfur]

38. I see it as being much simpler.

The games that kids are playing should be the concern of the parents of the child. For all I care stores can even put age limits if they wish, but I hate the idea of the government trying to tell people what to do. Let the freaking people do it.

Of course I also reject the notion that some how these games cause kids to murder and commit other such crimes. If a kid is messed up enough to actually murder a cop, then I doubt it was simply a game that pushed him over the edge.

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. The game teaches them HOW to murder a cop

So no, the game itself won't push the kid over the edge, but it helps him know which way to go.

[Solon]

144. Have to respond to the stupidity in this post...

You would have a much better argument if you said the Law and Order, or any number of other cop shows actually showed them HOW to do it! Where in GTA does it show you how a gun handles, how to pull a trigger, how to target properly(without an onscreen crosshairs)? I didn't know guns were controlled by a "fire" button and a thumbstick!

[proud2BlibKansan]

145. The military uses video games to train soldiers

who are going in to combat. If it wasn't an effective techinique, do you think they would be using it? To my knowledge, watching Law and Order is NOT part of military training.

[proud2BlibKansan]

95. No flame here

I think this company who developed this game deliberately put this code in the game, lied about it and are now laughing all the way to the bank while the game, due to this controversy, sells like hotcakes. Pretty despicable, if you ask me.

[aresef]

132. Doubt it. They're going to lose more than $50 mil.

[seriousstan]

10. Don't tell Hillary about this.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. Shit, another game I'm going to have to buy.

When people try to ban things, it's bad for my credit card.

[trogdor]

14. You underestimate the tenacity of the horny teenager.

Big time.

"How many kids have the attention span and the technical knowledge to do it?"

Lots and lots of them. It reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon where Dilbert had written this "unbreakable" pr0n-blocker plug-in, and Dogbert said to him what I'm saying to you.

The energy being wasted on defending GTA's "M" rating could light up Las Vegas during convention season. I say it could be put to WAY better use.

[Kraklen]

18. If a horny teenager is smart enough and dedicated enough...

to figure out how to unlock these things, he's probably old enough to be looking at pixelated sex. God knows he's not going to get it anywhere else.

Well, except for the internet where he's downloaded the mod off of anyway.

[MercutioATC]

42. TEENAGER? Try 8-year-old.

They know how to Google.

[thinkingwoman]

47. no 8-year-old has access

without a parent's permission.

No 8-year-old can drive, or arrange access to the internet, or get a job to earn money to buy the game in the first place.

A parent HAS to facilitate access to this.

[MercutioATC]

50. I completely agree.

However, any 8-year-old has the ability to access the adult content on the game.

I'm not advocating banning it. What's the issue with labeling it "Adult-Oriented"?

[thinkingwoman]

61. I don't have an issue with accurate labelling.

I have an issue with all of the "what about the children" hysterical nonsense I've been reading on threads about this issue in the last few days.

BTW, I'm not lumping you in with that. I just responded to your post to clarify that any 8 year old coming into contact with the sexually explicit material is doing so because his/her parents are not preventing it.

[dissent1977]

96. It is already labeled Mature

It is very clearly labeled that is not appropriate for an 8 year old. An M rating is the equivalant to an R in the movie world, AO is equivalant to a XXX rating. No stores sell AO games, unless you go to the porn shop. GTA is certainly worthy of an R rating, but not a XXX.

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. You don't know many 8 year olds, do you?

I know plenty and yes, most have internet access and will most likely download the controversial addition to this game now that it has received all this media attention.

[thinkingwoman]

108. read closer

I said that 8 year olds don't have access without parental (or adult) permission.

Adults facilitate access (to the internet and the game console and the game itself). These items and access do not fall from the sky.

I have 2 teenage children, and I know more than a few 8 year olds, thanks for asking, er, assuming.

If you want to believe that 8 year olds can drive to the mall and buy the game and use their own charge cards to arrange for internet access at their house, be my guest. Don't confuse it with reality, however.

[proud2BlibKansan]

116. Reality is

that 8 year olds can and do have access to this game.

[thinkingwoman]

126. Are you purposely misreading?

I never said they didn't have access. I said they could not gain access without a parent/adult facilitating it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

129. It doesn't matter whether they have legal access or not.

They ARE playing it.

[thinkingwoman]

133. ok, I give up

You're not getting the point of my post. I don't know if that is purposeful or simply an inability to read and understand. Either way, it's pointless to continue this conversation.

Have a nice day.

[philosophie_en_rose]

79. Parents are being lazy.

How does an 8 year-old get 50 dollars? Buy a game with an M or AO rating. Download and install a specific computer program, instead of download non-digital porn. Play for several hours - murdering women.

How do they do all of this undetected?

Frankly, this is all an excuse for the complaining parents to not have to monitor their own children. If you don't want your child to play GTA, then don't buy it and don't let them have it. If you rely on the rating to judge the game, you are kidding yourself. Better yet, raise a kid that doesn't enjoy killing hookers for money.

[thinkingwoman]

146. Thank you!

I've been posting the same thing and getting nowhere. :shrug:

[Xithras]

112. Here's the problem with that theory.

In order to unlock the nudity, the average kid is going to go to Google, type in "HOT COFFEE MOD", download a patch, and install it. If he's successfull (and doesn't get one of the virus infected clones already out on the net), his reward will be cartoonish, pixelated, fake looking sec.

If the kid really wants to see nudity, he could instead type "HOT HARDCORE SEX" into Google and browse any one of the thousands of free hardcore porn sites showing REAL sex, with REAL women. As a bonus, there's no chance of viruses, he won't have to mess with installing anything, and he'll have the added joy of seeing an endless variety fof porn rather than watching the same short clip over and over.

The silliness of this entire "issue" boggles the mind.

[aresef]

124. From what I've heard, installing isn't just a few clicks and you're done

You need real technical knowledge.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Yep Hot coffee gave him the gale force wnds

he needed... but there were no consequences huh?

[ibegurpard]

55. yeah, and you're right there cheering him on.

congratulations.

[Zhade]

19. Excellent letter!

NT!

[progressivebydesign]

21. I'm still wondering why GTA was okay before.. and not now.

I mean, since when is it suitable entertainment for a teen to beat someone to death? But.. throw some explicit sex in there, and everyone gets their panties in a bunch. I'm just having a hard time with the culture of violence in America. The people in their 20's and below have zero sensitivity to violence.. kids can watch violence, and play violent games, without a shudder. That is fucking scary. I NEVER EVER want to lose my adversion to violence, real or fake. Watching someone die is NOT entertainment. But.. America being the sick society it is, can only complain about sex. No wonder other countries think we're all nuts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. On that I agree with you

I will nto telll the company to stop producing though, but UNTIL we as a culture stop buying this, it will not change... but it is a general culture of violence we have, becuase it is FUN... I was a medic for ten years and saw real people get beaten up, raped, burned, crushed, and oh yes tapped in the head... so for me GTA has absolutely no atraction. I am also a producer and though the game setting involves wars, some of my characters have gone through hell and then some and shit people die in war, so I am offing major characters as well... but I am breaking from the trend.

I am not tryying to glorify war...

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. GTA has NEVER been okay in my book

I am appalled by the popularity of this game among kids. I find stealing cars, running from and assaulting cops and the other crimes in this game not very entertaining and definitely inappropriate for children. The added sex scenes are just icing on the cake, as far as I'm concerned. And I am sort of glad this happened; it draws attention to this game.

[Zhade]

31. You make a good point.

I know there were parts in the game that bothered me a lot.

[Kraklen]

32. Just goes to show you...

it's all about censorship.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

33. "Anti-gaming activist." The very fact that such a thing exists

makes my mind reel.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. they have been around since oh at least 1975

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

36. The evils of PONG! (nt)

[genieroze]

39. love + sex = bad while hate+ war = good

[MercutioATC]

40. Sorry, I agree with this "conservative idiot".

It takes the average kid 14 1/2 seconds to find codes to unlock games.

If you need to put the sexual content in, you should live with the "M" rating.

Case closed.

[Kraklen]

43. It's already got an M rating.

And the mod requires downloading from the internet. If they can download the mod, they can download actual porn.

[MercutioATC]

48. Yes, but they can download the mod at the library...

...and bring it home filters won't catch it.

It all boils down to this:

1) They put sex scenes in it.

2) Those sex scenes should not be viewed by children.

3) An "adult content" sticker is warranted.

[gollygee]

51. The sex scenes shouldn't be seen by children BUT the violence is OK?

I wouldn't particularly mind a kid of game-playing age of mine seeing some simulated cartoon sex, but the violence in that game would make it unacceptable to me.

[MercutioATC]

52. The violence isn't O.K. to me either.

I'm just asking that if a game has "locked" sex sections that anybody can unlock, why is it a problem to label the game to reflect this?

[gollygee]

53. I don't really understand what's up here

did they purposely put in these locked sections or were they in the game and then locked because they were considered too sexual?

As I recall from an earlier thread, this game has a warning that says there is strong sexual content or something. That covers this coffee thing in my opinion.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

65. The content unlocked by Hot Coffee was already purposely locked.

This particular content can only by accessed through the downloaded patch. There's no way you can accidentally encounter this specific content.

As far as the current label on the game about sexual content, there is a fair amount of this already in the game, but it isn't nearly as explicit as the Hot Coffee content.

[dissent1977]

99. It is not as easy to unlock as people are making it seem

To modify an XBOX or Playstation 2 game is far more difficult than people are making it seem (PS2 especially), you really have to hack into the hardware of the system to get these mods to work. Now the PC is a different story, virtually every PC game can be modded but if you download a mod then the ESRB rating no longer applies. The ESRB rates the code that was submitted to them, not a modified version of the code. If a parent wants to prevent their children from seeing this type of material they should not let them play PC games, or at least restrict their access to mods for those games.

[aresef]

60. The mod is tough to install, I hear

[Occulus]

81. Actually, they took out the scenes before publication...

...and someone enabled it, in their home, after they bought it.

But go ahead and mischaracterize the actual incident if it makes you happy, because you know all the clueless fools here who DON'T play games and DON'T know what modding entails will lap it up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Actually the AO rating it has the M content already

[aresef]

46. You misunderstood

You can't press Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A Start and see sex. The Hot Coffee PC mod, I'm told, is difficult to install, and it takes lots of legwork (several hours worth according to Gamespot) and an Action Replay to do it on the PS2.

[MercutioATC]

49. It's still on the CD/cart.

If you're going to release adult-oriented material, it should be labeled as such.

[Occulus]

82. Everything released with Half-Life 2 makes it possible

for a user to create the EXACT SAME SCENE that appeared in GTA:SA.

The EXACT scene. WITH custom audio. All you need to do is re-skin the models that ship with the game- and I'm betting there are already some pre-made nudie skins appropriate for human character models out there on the web.

You just don't have a leg to stand on on this issue. You are going to end up being responsible for the end of user content if your outrage continues.... and then, I'll be REALLY pissed off.

In fact, I'm pissed enough to go and make a HL2 map containing as faithful of a reproduction of the GTA scene as I can, just to rub it in your face.

[MercutioATC]

87. But why have it there in the first place?

[aresef]

89. It was planned, the scrapped late in production.

It was inaccessible without the use of the EULA-breaking Action Replay device.

[MercutioATC]

135. My question remains the same. Why not simply remove it?

Regardless of what it takes to access it, the company is disseminating it when it clearly had the option not to.

[aresef]

141. They didn't want to accidentally create any new bugs by removing it, so...

...they removed all calls to it in the game.

[OrlandoGator]

57. The PS2 and XBox versions require external equipment to use the mod.

It's not just entering a code by pushing buttons.

[MercutioATC]

86. Like a GameShark?

...something almost every kid already has?

[aresef]

123. No, Action Replay, I believe. Which not every kid has.

[MrBenchley]

70. I agree as well....

[Occulus]

83. Are you a gamer? n/t

[fujiyama]

84. Why do movies with sex scenes get an R rating

At least be consistant.

And Jack Thompson is a nutcase. You should read up about him. He ran againmst Janet Reno in Miami for some position and lost, calling her a lesbian and saying she was part of the mafia.

He's a freak and this is his only mission in life - to censor society to the point of it being safe for a 5 year old.

[MercutioATC]

85. I meant that I agreed that GTA should have an AO sticker.

I'm not in favor of banning things in general, nor do I buy into the "violent game/movie" defense for violent crimes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. The internet on my classroom computer

found this website in less than 30 seconds. And we supposedly have a very 'up to date' filter on our district computers which won't allow us to access inappropriate content on the internet. hmmmm

[genieroze]

41. I think this nut has been playing too much of this game.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/thedopegame/index.html?tag=mp_2to9

[ibegurpard]

54. Congratulations all you video game nannies.

No, they're certainly not going to stop with GTA San Andreas and when they're finished with computer and video games they'll be moving to other areas that you might not be so happy about.

[Ariana Celeste]

58. But!

Think of the children! :sarcasm:

I agree. They will certainly NOT stop there.

[Democat]

64. Hillary Clinton is hurting the future of the Democratic Party

She is driving away the youth vote and she isn't bringing in a single Republican to vote for Democrats.

When will our side learn that you can't win by being more right wing than them.

Hillary is acting like an idiot with no real strategy.

[MrBenchley]

68. What a ridiculous statement...

"When will our side learn that you can't win by being more right wing than them."
Jeeze, you're talking about a game that's a right wingers' wet dream--racial stereotypes and assault weapons.

[dissent1977]

104. Have you played GTA?

It is certainly not a right-wingers wet dream. Listen to the radio stations, particularly the talk radio stations, that appear in the game. The commentary and the advertisements absolutely rip on the right-wing consumer based ideology to no end.

And the game is not promoting violence or racism in any way. The game is a satire, it pokes fun at our society's obsession with sex and violence. That is not to say it is a clean game, it most certainly is not, but it is not the evil that people make it out to be. People have to have a sense of humor when they look at it, it is not meant to be taken seriously. It is certainly not for kids, but I think most of its critics have not actually played the game and are getting their information from second hand sources. Everyone who has played it should be able to realize that the game is a satire.

[TheMightyFavog]

125. Especailly when you do the missions with the CIA.

The agent that you work for justifies his actions by saying that if he doesn't bring drugs into the country, there will be "Communism in Ohio, people sharing and not buying stuff."

If that ain't skewering the Right, I don't know what is.

[rman]

76. She has a strategy allright, it's just not a progressive strategy. n/t

-

[ConfuZed]

101. I agree she is but no matter what Bill or Hillary does there is some

sheep out there that will defend them vigorously

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. So protecting kids and educating parents

and consumers is all of a sudden only a right wing value?? We on the left should NOT be concerned about this issue?

[ConfuZed]

107. No it isn't but...

Censorship,fascism and draconian laws are all right-wing values and it seems in the mist of the war,supreme court and cia leaks quite a few of our "leaders" find it more important to censor us further to protect our children its no different than what the right wing does except they use both terrorism and "family values"

[proud2BlibKansan]

109. No one, especially Hillary,

is advocating censorship. You are grossly exaggerating what Hillary is trying to accomplish.

[Solly Mack]

66. I'll shall create a SIM character tonight, name it Jack, place it in

a house with no doors or windows, completely bare....and then speed it up to watch what happens.

[MrBenchley]

71. There's a mighty blow for freedom, all righty!

[Solly Mack]

80. I shot him an email too

but the other is for my own perverse satisfaction.

[Endangered Specie]

72. So lets see, mowing down fictional people in a video game: BAD

mowing down real Iraqi's en masse: GOOD.

:sarcasm: :mad:

[GeekMonkey]

88. This is totally ridiculous

If your kids can't tell the difference between pixels on a screen and real life, it's YOUR fault as the parent for not educating them beyond being a retarded fuckwit.

I am so sick of us pretending our kids are too stupid to handle "adult" content. The ONLY reason it is even an issue is because of the insane lengths we go to as a culture to demonize and repress sex.

MY KIDS are smart enough to handle it. They know right from wrong and they have been playing the latest, greatest, goriest, sexiest video games around since they were 8. NONE of them have been involved in any violence, they get good grades, they are respectful, and, are always the most well behaved kids at any family get together.

ENOUGH with this bullshit that somehow video games have a profound impact on a child's ability to tell right from wrong. If your kids can be influenced by a video game, YOU are doing something wrong as a parent.

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. And what do we do about that?

Cause, trust me, it happens a lot more often than most of the folks here realize.

[aresef]

114. The parents need to be educated

Retailers should be required to post ESRB posters and have the pamphlets by the register. State laws should be enacted to keep the retailers from selling M-rated games to kids without a parent present.

[proud2BlibKansan]

117. AMEN

great ideas. And they don't involve censorship, which is an added plus.

[walldude]

134. I'm a gamer and I can get behind that..

There is already a ratings system it just needs to be enforced.

on edit-- My problem is there are alot bigger issues than GTA:SA. Hillary pissed me off because she made this a priority. IMHO the list of important shit is a little too big to be worrying about freaking video games. These people who run around claiming this game or that game caused this kid to shoot 3 cops, have totally lost their minds. There is more condoned violence in the real world every day than in all of GTA:SA. When you have people like Rush comparing torture to a college prank this is what you get. A total lack of compassion. KIds don't need to learn it from games, it's all around them every day...

[Stirk]

119. Thank god we've got DLC Republicrats like Hillary to push this nonsense!

I mean shit- if she started talking about Abu Ghraib, people might actually start noticing our smoke and mirrors political system.

[donco6]

136. Wait til they find out you can make 2 guys have sex.

That'll really push them over the edge.

[Arkana]

137. Oh, please.

Don't idiots like this have ANYTHING better to do with their time????

[FreedomAngel82]

138. Oh brother

This guy is so ridiculous. They have raitings on the front and also on the back a description! Parents should PARENT their kids! If I had a kid who wanted a certain video game I know I'd very well check it out on the description and the raiting of the game and ask the cashier if they know anything about it. Also on gaming website's they have reviews and things like that and even sites like amazon.com :eyes: Duh. It's called personal responsibility! People need to use it instead of griping and complaining all the time. :eyes: