Military morality

[undergroundpanther]

I never asked for their sacrifice. The president ordered it of them, and they obeyed. I had no say in it. I would prefer they DIDN'T go to die and fight against people in faraway places, killing people they don't know, in old-money's profit-making wars.


http://www.unknownnews.net/031126a-up.html





Response to a military man...about Military morals
http://www.unknownnews.net/031230d-up.html



....These guys not only haven't thought about WHY. they refuse to. It's easier not to, and more efficient, they're encouraged not to think and they don't. WHY is not in the job description. Without thinking


they will kill Iraqis this year and Iranians next year



and win medals for it and be called heroes, and if anything about this fucked up war made sense I wouldn't even complain because you bet your ass I'm not thinking about WHY when we're out there. but I haven't stopped thinking entirely. When we get back to camp I think, but some of these guys don't. and if someone in rank ordered these blank slates to kill your sister they would kill your sister. I have heard some of them brag about that in those exact words, and others laugh.

( I gotta add..Look at the club Gitmo gear it's the work of bullies,WAKE UP..The Bullies in our population are running our country and our lives into the ground people. Too many sociopaths with too much power..The sociopath people are shaping our policies and enforcing them without the capacity for feeling SHAME for doing wrong to anyone.. That is the issue These people are messed up,thew true definition of insane can look very,very normal people..Torture is being normalized because in the mind of a sociopath torture,rape all of it is not really WRONG, is good entertaining FUN IF you can get away with it! They love ripping apart bodies and minds for entertainment and an ego buzz because they feel no empathy shame or attachment/love the survival based emotions that keep our kind of society for people like us healthy and worth existing in. For sociopaths destroy a society like ours. To the sociopath society is prey,law is a game of getting control,"winning",assuming authority, getting more,going up a chain of command and more getting rewards/less punishments and getting away with anything that gives them a rush and is a relief from the unrelenting boredom their emotionally dead lives are.. )

[mike_c]

1. the U.S. military does not deserve support for its role in Iraq....

The war against Iraq is a war of aggression in which the U.S. military is serving the same role that the German military served during the invasion and occupation of Poland and other European nations last century. They are not defending America or its ideals. There is nothing honorable about serving fascism.

[cornermouse]

5. The U.S. military is, for the most part I think, obeying orders.

That's how you know that they're in the military. A lot of them are caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place.

[mike_c]

7. that's what these guys were doing, too....

http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/photos/radasky_burning_housing_block_1943+large.jpg

Just following orders. That's what Nuremberg was all about.

[CrispyQ]

2. Excellent commentary!

I'm printing this out & will send to every repub I know. I will also send it to my dem friends - so many who have gone apathetic since November - in hopes it will wake them up, too.

Nominatied.

My favorite part:

snip...

I don't care if the sick way of life we lead here is threatened. We stole this country from the Indians. We live this well because most of the rest of the world lives in abject poverty and disease, and they think they are powerless. If we as people don't start taking responsibility for what we do, personally, and if we don't get the balls to be insubordinate, ask the ugly questions of authority, and get a moral compass of our own, our way of life will collapse under the weight of it's own corruption, pollution, hubris hypocrisy, mental illness, greed and consuming.

Our way of life is about growth, and constant growth NOT sustainable on a finite planet. When constant growth occurs in the human body it's called cancer. When it's an economic system is based on constant growth it goes undiagnosed as it ravages the Earth for those greedy hungry ghost elites who cannot stop themselves when gorging at the trough of this Earth's bounty.

If you piss on enough people in other countries by bullying, exploiting, enslaving and lying to them, then of course they'll want to bash you. So the military of America has become a bully for the state (read the top 1 percent wealth's goons). I don't respect this bullying.

===
Reminds me of the book "Economic Hit Man."

[undergroundpanther]

3. The bullies

Cannot be reasoned with,tolerated or accepted..

They use our compassion against us.
They use our tolerance against us,
They don't care about reason..

They just want to win and get away with what they want,


They cannot be helped.Psychology proves this.

We need to do something to stop these bullies and fast.
They will destroy the world because fascism is THEIR culture.
And they will not stop until they have converted and subjugated and plundered the world.

[Bluerthanblue]

39. ya know, i just stumbled onto your

post Undergroundpanther,

and as i read it, i heard bush talking about 'the evildoers'=
not us talking about 'the US'- let me clarify the bush U.S.-

and my stomach just dropped to the pit of me....
because you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT- and bush is spouting his own
deep desire, pretending it's all about an 'attack' from without
when ALL ALONG it is an attack from within- the most devious, decietful, and dangerous kind of attack-

and i dont know if we can ever stop what has been set in motion.

not without alot of bloodletting right here in the us.

[undergroundpanther]

42. I welled up with that comment

Because I have been saying this forever..

And I get the same responses out of people..they are playing make believe....words that that amount to PITY the abusers,act like Christ,be a punching bag.. I can't stand up,I can't leave and disobey that master...

And I fear that people are so caught up with bullshit and games they do not see it is NOT about themselves. Most people would NEVER torture a child..

But 1 in 24 WOULD torture a kid rape whatever if they could get away with it.They do not feel emotions like love,remorse,empathy,guilt or shame all the things that make us capable of living together in peace and making life safe and respecting of human dignity and the right to not be hurt.

Sociopaths do not deserve any pity out of any of us.Just kill them without fanfare.(they get off on dramas).Sociopaths live by using people by hurting them,controlling,abusing,They will do anything to Win some game they play,to get something from others and give nothing back,they like to steal, to scam to abuse and gaslight people to give themselves 'entertainment,sociopaths like making people scramble and react and jump on their command.They are hopelessly toxic diseased people that cannot be reformed and cannot be trusted and cannot live among us..

Death is the only way to stop them if you cannot incapacitate them or keep them isolated.Just like pedophiles. They never stop because they lack the emotional feeling we have that keep us from raping kids. Understand?

Isn't it interesting how much attention the sociopaths get from us how much they scare us and make society scramble?? all the concern,media time, and law enforcement exists FOR THEM because of their"confident charisma"and abuse loving ways..They use us like fools.And they destroy and abuse us through our good nature and benefit of a doubt,and unwillingness to admit they are what they are.and they have NO conscience.

People with no conscience really do exist,Bush is a prime example..

The enemy looks like us,but he IS not us,he can imitate us however,but not forever or flawlessly.
And people with personalities like Bush's are NEVER to be trusted, given privacy,power,a microphone, or freedom.

The Inuit when they saw a sociopath around the tribe, A group of guys would insist on taking him hunting one day...and when no one was looking and the opportunity arose they'd push him into icy water to die.

That is why bush has put up barriers around the white house sociopaths know the evil they do and do not care who they hurt and they know they are a target of the wounded and good hearted.

The problem with most people who never bothered to look at the sociopath problem as a real epidemic that is killing us off,is they never learned how to detect sociopaths from non sociopaths. It's sad but traumatized people can appear on the surface like sociopaths to protect themselves from sociopaths.



But watch them and how they act,look for cracks in the mask of sanity,look at how they react to words like love,compassion,tenderness..They react to words like that like you would to chair,lemon or box...They get a gleam of delight out of seeing love and innocence being tortured and die.And when asked to articulate how they feel they are FAKE,they stumble on words they ACT....they mix emotion they parrot with word hints about "winning" power or torture.

You can tell who they are...if you know what to look for.
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/psychopath.html

Characteristics of Psychopath
(Sociopath, Anti-social Personality Disorder

1. Glibness/superficial charm.
2. Grandiose sense of self-worth.
3. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
4. Pathological lying
5. Conning/manipulative
6. Lack of remorse or guilt
7. Shallow affect
8. Callous/lack of empathy
9. Parasitic lifestyle
10. Poor behavioral controls
11. Promiscuous sexual behavior
12. Early behavior problems
13. Lack of realistic, long-term plans
14. Impulsivity
15. Irresponsibility
16. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
17. Many short-term marital relationships
18. Juvenile delinquency
19. Revocation of conditional release
20. Criminal versatility (Hare, 1986)

(Narcissism also a characteristic)

"It must be remembered that even the most severely and obviously disabled psychopath presents a technical appearance of sanity, often with high intellectual capacities and not infrequently succeeds in business or professional activities for short periods, some for considerable periods .Although they occasionally appear on casual inspection as successful members of the community, as able lawyers, executive or physicians, they do not, it seems, succeed in the sense of finding satisfaction of fulfillment in their own accomplishments. Nor do they, when the full story is known, appear to find this in an ordinary activity."

--H.Cleckley, "The Mask of Sanity"

"Psychiatrists are often helplessly manipulated by the psychopath; just as are the psychopaths other victims."

--Dr. Ken Magid, "High Risk, Children Without a Conscience."

"There are psychopathic personalities in the highest echelons of government, and even within religious hierarchies in America. You can t just assume that a person with the title judge or hospital orderly got there honestly and won't manipulate the hell out of you."

--Personal com

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

[dutchdemocrat]

25. Natives

[jody]

4. Are you saying we should not have a military force? If not, what would

you do to change the military's obligation to obey the civilians elected by the people?

[undergroundpanther]

12. The revolutionary war was fought

By VOLUNTEERS.

The army once was a VOLUNTEER organization .

Than it became a bribed organization..

Now we got a draft.

The Founding Fathers warned against how standing armies would be exploited by wannabe tyrants and profit seeking pirates.

If a war is right to doI think THE PEOPLE can decide to fight it.
I trust the people especially liberals have a moral compass..Alot of Leaders ..All Ceos.all religious crusaders and all bullies do not have a moral compass beyond "winning" and cannot be trusted to have sane judgements about other pweoples welfare they cannot feel shame,they are comprimized and full of conflicts of interest.These kinds of people want power for thier own reasons,they are UNFIT to lead.

No one has the right to force you to kill anyone.And if you kill it's on your hands.Even if a sargent ordered you to.Why do you think so many vets come back mentally ill with remorse and shame and longing for the past?

And America was won from the Brits by an all VOLUNTEER ARMY..

Freedom requires RISKS..Risk of failure risk of trusting your neighbors and knowing each other.. risks insulated obedient people today who are not used to being free and responsible at the same time, are afraid to face up to.
____________________________________________________________________
The Aztec went to war when the leader said to,BUT unlike Bush co,
The Aztec chieftains led the infantry into the hand to hand combat and died alongside soldiers.

Bush is a tyrant who can send other people to die because he will never be at risk for his actions and not be made responsible.

That is the problem.

Do you think Iraq is a "just war"? If not REFUSE to fight.Refuse to obey orders.Refuse to behave as if bush is your "leader" for he is who is at the end of the chain of command publicly.

[jody]

14. Our Constitution says:

Congress has the power
QUOTE
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
UNQUOTE

and

QUOTE
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;
UNQUOTE

People in the military are obligated to obey the U.S. code Title 10, Chapter 47 most commonly known as the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)

What part of those statements in our Constitution do you want to change with an Amendment or U.S. Code do you wish to change with new laws?

[Zorbuddha]

22. Sworn to defend against enemies, foreign AND domestic.

I don't see much defending against domestic enemies of the Constitution.

[jody]

26. The authors of our Constitution were afraid of standing armies and

viewed the state militia as a counter to that threat. They were also adamant that the army and navy would be obedient to the people's elected representatives.

Our military forces are limited by law for domestic purposes, see TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 67 > § 1385 Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus
QUOTE
Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
UNQUOTE

[undergroundpanther]

33. Militrary lovers

And people scared of the responsibility of being free ALWAYS omit that part..Thank you for posting it!Here it is AGAIN read it and THINK!

Our military forces are limited by law for domestic purposes, see TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 67 > § 1385 Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus
QUOTE
Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
UNQUOTE

[wli]

49. ... and Bushler et al are talking about revoking the Posse Comitatus Act

[wli]

48. they're not following these laws

The President is usurping his powers as commander-in-chief.

[bryant69]

6. This is crap

Writing off the military this way is just stupid. I particularly despise the line "I never asked for their sacrifice." Their country asked them - which means you asked them. Those commercials that come on the tv talking about how great the army is and encouraging people to join? You paid for them (I am assuming you are a US citizen, and pay taxes).

They put themselves in harms way to protect us; they are willing to give their lives to protect their fellow citizens. I can understand anger, even fury at the way President Bush is misusing them - but taking it out on the military - well, it's just crap.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. My, my. What a romantic notion you have of the military.

"They put themselves in harms way to protect us; they are willing to give their lives to protect their fellow citizens."

Really? Things sure must have changed since I was in.

[bryant69]

11. My brother served; my father served

So I know it's not all peaches and cream.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. OK. But, don't glorify it or romanticize it. Soldiers are killers.

That's why they carry guns.

All this "sacrifice" and "dying to protect freedom" is pure drivel put out by their masters.

Military training, despite all the recent fuzzy feel good stuff, is about getting some people (usually adolescents) ready to kill other people on command.

The average GI is terrified at the mere thought of stepping out of line and not going along with the crowd of his peers who have been conditioned to follow orders no matter how obscene or even suicidal. The pressure to conform is immense and it takes an incredibly strong person to resist.

I spent 4 years in the marines and never ran across anyone who was willing to "sacrifice" his life to protect his fellow citizens, except in the most abstract terms.

No, I'm not blaming the grunts. But, please, don't make them out to be joyful, well informed, heroes, eager to lay down their lives for their country. They're just ordinary people, good, bad, smart, dumb, gentle, sadistic, put into an impossible situation, forced to do things that most of them wouldn't dream of doing without a uniform on.

[bryant69]

19. So it would be better to think of them as sadistic

baby killing torturing murdering monsters who thoughtlessly prop up an evil government bent on murder and theft?

[undergroundpanther]

32. It's more honest.

nobody in this system gets rich by being a nice,altruistic,generous, gentle good hearted person.Those sorts of values in America are seen as"weak"or ineffecient.

[mike_c]

35. "you will know them by their works...."

eom

[LibertyorDeath]

36. Great post well said Tierra_y_Libertad

[mike_c]

10. their country asked them to sacrifice in defense of America...

...it's Constitution, and the ideals the constitution represents. They are not doing that at present-- they are fighting a war of aggression-- a war crime by definition. People need to get over the attitude that military service is always noble. More often-- historically-- it's the sharp end of brutal regimes. That is what the U.S. military is becoming, and if you don't want them fighting for fascism in our names, you should start paying more attention to what they're REALLY doing and less to the fairy tales.

[bryant69]

13. Fairy tales?

What makes you think I don't realize they have been misused?

But do we blame the grunts or do we blame the commander in chief? You want to waste time tearing down the grunts that's your call, but I think I'll focus on the men who made the decision to send our troops into battle.

[undergroundpanther]

34. In my article

I warn the grunts and pint a finger at the corrupt commanders and thier chain of command holding the sodiers moral compass in threats and symbolic fetters.

[wli]

50. support our troops: stop the orders for them to commit war crimes

[undergroundpanther]

23. If I could keep time in a bottle

Writing off the military this way is just stupid. I particularly despise the line "I never asked for their sacrifice." Their country asked them - which means you asked them.

NO I DIDN'T

I Would gladly say to ANY recruit I am not asking you to die,or kill The rulers want it,not me. Don't sign up it's a racket.

And I write off the military because..It has too much BULLY morality at it's top and ranks.If the bullies were not in control of the soldiers,and the "obedient" maybe would listen to the people around them who are morally against this war, and not to the patriotism god and country,war is a video game drugs peddled on ads on TV paid for and made by those who profit from the racket.


I don't see my bank account increase when wars happen to get"arranged " for the rich.


Oingo Boingo War Again


Don't you know we got smart bombs,
it's a good thing that our bombs are clever.
Don't you know that the smart bombs are so clever,
they only kill bad people.
Don't you know though our kids are dumb,
we got smart bombs, what a joyous thing.
Here we go so let's drink a toast,
to those clever bombs, and the men who built them.
(Chorus)
There they go now, there go all my friends
There they go now, marching off to war again
With their bright flags waving in the wind
There they go now, marching off to war again
Smiling proudly, with their heads in the clouds.
Don't you know this is better than any video friend.
It's an action movie.

Here we go watch the bad guys get their butts kicked.
Really makes me feel good.
Here we go watching CNN,
the adrenaline rushes through my veins.
Don't you know it's a feel good show,
electronic bliss. It's a video, video...
(Chorus)

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs,
it's a damn good thing our bombs are clever
It's a shame that our kids are dumb,
but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now
Don't you know it's a feel good show
and it's suitable for the whole darn family
Come on out everybody shout,
give a big salute to our ingenuity
Don't you know this is better than,
any video friend, it's an action movie...

(Chorus)
Here we go, watch the bad guys get their butts kicked, and it makes me feel good. Don't you know it's Nintendo,
really gets the blood flowing thru my veins now
Don't you know it's a feel-good show,
electronic bliss, it's a video, video


Until they get home with a colostomy bag and PSTD and crawl into a bottle to die alone on the street as their veteran benefits are cut and the businesses who's bank accounts were fattened during wartime..Get the cops to shoo him off their sidewalk because the suits don't like it and customers are offended by the crazy dirty bum..ranting out there in a fetal position with no shoes on in February.

Yeah war is noble career isn't it?

[cynatnite]

8. The military is supposed to be apolitical

It's been used a tool for the repukes for many years now and the abuse, neglect and murder is offensive to me.

You also have to understand the mentality underneath the uniforms. It's not brainwashing and why that term continues to be bandied about as if it's candy given to a little kid is beyond my understanding.

Basic training isn't just about getting everyone to walk in a straight line, saying the same things over and over or killing anything that moves.

The military is supposed to be designed to protect this country. That philosophy was laid to waste years ago by using it to push an American agenda. Prior to this war and after Vietnam, the goals of the military became loftier and many who wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity used it as a stepping stone for a better life and a career. I was one of those.

I went in with practically no self-esteem, no job training and no job. I came out of my training better than what I was and I had real hope for the future. It was the ground which made me the person I am today.

Professionalism and integrity was what we were taught. We were trained to stay away from politics. The reason being is that the military cannot get involved in such matters so as not to run roughshod over one political party in favor of another.

Also, there is a reason why the military is not a democratic body. Not following orders in time of battle can cost the lives of fellow soldiers. War is ugly as we are all aware, but it gets a lot messier when there is anarchy in the ranks.

Those who understand the military best are ones who have been there. I served and can describe much of the mentality. I couldn't tell you a thing about war other than what I have been told, but I can't describe the experience since I have never been there. There are many others here at DU with combat experience who can more than adequately say why it's important for our military to remain as they are.

Also, more and more soldiers are coming forward with their stories. As this awful war continues we will see more of this and when it's our own military, who serve with faith that our country will treat them right, putting truth to the lies, more and more people will have to listen.

[undergroundpanther]

17. Reply

It's been used a tool for the repukes for many years now and the abuse, neglect and murder is offensive to me.
______________________________________________________________
It offends me too..But the repukes are not the crux of this problem it's the cultural tolerance and enabling of bullying that is.
_________________________________________________________________
You also have to understand the mentality underneath the uniforms. It's not brainwashing and why that term continues to be bandied about as if it's candy given to a little kid is beyond my understanding.
_________________________________________________________________
No it's sophisticated reordering of a persons world view and personality and moral understanding of the world.DELIBERATE character changing.And that is done most effectively in the most timely manner by Trauma.
_________________________________________________________________
Basic training isn't just about getting everyone to walk in a straight line, saying the same things over and over or killing anything that moves.
______________________________________________________________
My cousin was forced to run laps while she was puking.They would not let her stop running..They made her do extra laps too.Cults treat people deep inside their orgs this way.To build loyalty and to insure it.She was called every degrading misogynist comment in the book.She was talked to like a dog day in day out.Her letters to me are enough to make you cry.

Today,she is killing herself with alcohol and she wasn't in a war she was a heavy equipment operator.Why did they make her puke and run and what use was degrading her as a cunt,cock-sucking whore ect.ect.What were the rapes for? The military career is such a character building good thing isn't it? Abuse was good for her..Why did she get abused if she was to operate cranes? Why did they abuse her and taunt and threaten her like that?
_________________________________________________________________

The military is supposed to be designed to protect this country. That philosophy was laid to waste years ago by using it to push an American agenda. Prior to this war and after Vietnam, the goals of the military became loftier and many who wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity used it as a stepping stone for a better life and a career. I was one of those.

I went in with practically no self-esteem, no job training and no job. I came out of my training better than what I was and I had real hope for the future. It was the ground which made me the person I am today.
______________________________________________________________________
Good for you.Might not be good for someone else..We are all different people.
______________________________________________________________________
Professionalism and integrity was what we were taught. We were trained to stay away from politics. The reason being is that the military cannot get involved in such matters so as not to run roughshod over one political party in favor of another.
________________________________________________________________
And today they baptize people in Iraq and wear orange club gitmo shirts online where the"enemy" can see their ass,and they torture people..and say it's not torture Riiight... Professional bullies
The stories I read from soldiers today are not much different than the war stories and service stories I heard from wars before.People in the military get raped, hazed,and humiliated before a battle or just for being a soldier..The soldiers are tortured by superiors sometimes in perverse ways to "make them endure torture in the enemies hands"Same shit different war.
_________________________________________________________________
The all volunteer army that fought the british didn't need to be tortured to fight a war where they feared the enemy so much their commanders tortured them before a battle.Why do you think that was?
____________________________________________________________________
Also, there is a reason why the military is not a democratic body. Not following orders in time of battle can cost the lives of fellow soldiers. War is ugly as we are all aware, but it gets a lot messier when there is anarchy in the ranks.
______________________________________________________________________
I agree commanders need to be able to bark orders when it is a life or death situation in battle

But BOOT CAMP is not a battle.

And I think the lawlessness in the ranks comes when the troops are hopeless and MORALLY UNSURE about WHY they are even in the war.If they are SURE that what they are doing is the best solution to a problem they fight with a clear conscience. If they are UNCLEAR about why they are doing it,they must be convinced,lied to, coerced and bribed to fight it..And and their egos have to be shattered ,broken and torn down and a sociopathic side built in to replace that moral compass that questions the morality of superiors..
____________________________________________________________________
Those who understand the military best are ones who have been there. I served and can describe much of the mentality. I couldn't tell you a thing about war other than what I have been told, but I can't describe the experience since I have never been there. There are many others here at DU with combat experience who can more than adequately say why it's important for our military to remain as they are.
___________________________________________________________________
BULLSHIT. ANY abusive situation where your life is in real danger of ending is adequate with empathy and compassion to describe that sort of terror soldiers MAY face.Frankly if I had an army to help me my traumas might not have hit me so hard.
I got PSTD and I never served.My father did and he helped me get PSTD.My father put a gun in my face I know what it feels like in enemy war zone my house was one.
___________________________________________________________________________________
Also, more and more soldiers are coming forward with their stories. As this awful war continues we will see more of this and when it's our own military, who serve with faith that our country will treat them right, putting truth to the lies, more and more people will have to listen.
_______________________________________________________________________
I hope so.I think the founding fathers knew what they were talking about more than you or I do here.

[cynatnite]

21. One bad experience in the military does not mean all are

No it's sophisticated reordering of a persons world view and personality and moral understanding of the world.DELIBERATE character changing.And that is done most effectively in the most timely manner by Trauma.

You see it as bullying and trauma. I do not. It was a tough character building experience for me. Not everyone will view basic training the same as I do, but at the same time, keep in mind that the military is a unique body and can't be compared to the civilian world. It's very reason for existing is unique.

My cousin was forced to run laps while she was puking.They would not let her stop running..They made her do extra laps too.Cults treat people deep inside their orgs this way.To build loyalty and to insure it.She was called every degrading misogynist comment in the book.She was talked to like a dog day in day out.Her letters to me are enough to make you cry.

Today,she is killing herself with alcohol and she wasn't in a war she was a heavy equipment operator.Why did they make her puke and run and what use was degrading her as a cunt,cock-sucking whore ect.ect.What were the rapes for? The military career is such a character building good thing isn't it? Abuse was good for her..Why did she get abused if she was to operate cranes? Why did they abuse her and taunt and threaten her like that?

I don't know when your cousin served, but when I was in that sort of behavior by drill instructors was considered unacceptable and they would have been met with harsh punishment. As I said before, I'm not her and she's not me. Also, not every woman ended with the sad result of your cousin. Please don't use her experiences to color everyone else who went through basic training. It's just not the case at all.

And today they baptize people in Iraq and wear orange club gitmo shirts online where the"enemy" can see their ass,and they torture people..and say it's not torture Riiight... Professional bullies
The stories I read from soldiers today are not much different than the war stories and service stories I heard from wars before.People in the military get raped, hazed,and humiliated before a battle or just for being a soldier..The soldiers are tortured by superiors sometimes in perverse ways to "make them endure torture in the enemies hands"Same shit different war.

Baptizing in the military whether in war zone or not is not unusual. I would expect the rate to be higher in a war zone considering how much death is dealt with on a regular basis. As I said in my post, at one time the military wasn't used in the way it is today. War changes people and in many cases for the worse. There is a movie called 'Casualties of War' with Michael J. Fox. It deals with this in a realistic fashion and shows how wartime can make even the best of people become the worst. That's not to say I approve of the atrocities we've read so much about. It just offers a good understanding of what happens in war to even the best of us.

I agree commanders need to be able to bark orders when it is a life or death situation in battle

But BOOT CAMP is not a battle.

And I think the lawlessness in the ranks comes when the troops are hopeless and MORALLY UNSURE about WHY they are even in the war.If they are SURE that what they are doing is the best solution to a problem they fight with a clear conscience. If they are UNCLEAR about why they are doing it,they must be convinced,lied to, coerced and bribed to fight it..And and their egos have to be shattered ,broken and torn down and a sociopathic side built in to replace that moral compass that questions the morality of superiors..

Boot camp is a first step in training for battle. They have to be prepared to face that time at a moment's notice. My husband was sent to war three times. One time turned out to be a training mission, but he and his unit did not know that.

I do agree there is a breakdown in the chain of command which has led to so much atrocity. It pisses me off that those generals who run the show aren't punished for their own failures because their lack of leadership has filtered down through the ranks. The top brass should face the music for their criminal negligence. It's easy to use the lower ranks as scapegoats.

BULLSHIT. ANY abusive situation where your life is in real danger of ending is adequate with empathy and compassion to describe that sort of terror soldiers MAY face.Frankly if I had an army to help me my traumas might not have hit me so hard.
I got PSTD and I never served.My father did and he helped me get PSTD.My father put a gun in my face I know what it feels like in enemy war zone my house was one.

Your experience, as tragic as it is, is nowhere near the norm of the military and their families. I and many others who have served never looked onto the military as abusive, though it does exist. I have never experienced abuse of any kind during my four years in the Army. Keep in mind this is not the norm. I come from a family where the majority have served and it was as boring and normal as it comes. My stepdad served during Vietnam, too.

I hope so.I think the founding fathers knew what they were talking about more than you or I do here.

I completely agree. :)

[undergroundpanther]

30. Unique reasons>

>... but at the same time, keep in mind that the military is a unique >body and can't be compared to the civilian world. It's very reason for >existing is unique.


Tell me what those UNIQUE REASONS for a bullying corrupt military like ours has to exist are?

So the rich in their wealth bubbles can be insulated from responsibility and get anything their heart desires,so these pigs can plunder without responsibility for their crimes? Or Making the world into a efficient soulless mono culture so bullies feel in control of themselves? Is it religion,Convert or die crap?
A sociopaths pipeline of porn supply? What?
Tell me the wonderful unique special purpose of this HUGE deadly sick S/M racket !!


>Baptizing in the military whether in war zone or not is not unusual. >I would expect the rate to be higher in a war zone considering how >much death is dealt with on a regular basis.

So much for a politically neutral force.


> As I said in my post, at one time the military wasn't used in the >way it is today.
>War changes people and in many cases for the worse.

THAN WHY KEEP DOING IT if it MAKES THINGS WORSE?
And war atrocities of long ago and military conquests all look the same to me as war atrocities today look it's all trauma,rape and torture killing kids,blowing apart bodies kill kill kill..

FOR WHAT?


Why are we in IRAQ?

EGO?
The special purpose of the military is to serve the dominator's that dominate the most..it's pecking order henchmen serving a racket for their leaders..A slave state function a big Sado-masochist club.
Unless there is an ulterior motive..like a RACKET that is too profitable to end..There is no reason that is a morally legitimate one.Not anymore.
War has been around too long..it has proven it's worthlessness at resolving conflicts because of it's 'values'sociopaths are whom rise up in power in such organizations...and the military reflects sociopath morality.Kill kill kill Dominate KIll rape plunder enslave Kill...Winnnner!!!You keep what you kill it's the Necromonger way!!
Time to try something ELSE.Don't you think?

[cynatnite]

37. The military does not dictate policy

The chickenhawks have done plenty of that. I support the troops and will never apologize for it. However, I do condemn in every possible way those who abuse, neglect and murder our military.

Don't confuse politics and religion in the military. In the civilian world those have been obscenely melded together. Baptisms, confirmations and other religious expression does happen in the military. It's considered acceptable as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others.

Before anyone mentions the abuse in the Air Force academy, keep in mind the world of the officers is in most cases considerably different than that of the enlisted. When I was in, no one gave a rat's ass who worshiped what.

Don't get me wrong here...I'm not trying to make excuses for the bad behavior of this administration and many other people involved in this atrocious war. I'm just trying to bring a little more understanding of the motivations and how things work on the military side of the coin. As with any group, not all are bad and not all are out with the same agenda as this regime we're living under.

I personally believe that we as humans have no choice but to evolve. If we do not we will ultimately destroy ourselves whether it's this generation or ten generations from now. I do believe it will be by our own hand no matter how inadvertently it might be unless we work to better ourselves and the world we live in.

[undergroundpanther]

38. ???

"The military does not dictate policy"


Than WHO does the dictating and why are they HIDING from being accountable to US? to ME? Is it because they know they are doing wrong and know if we knew exactly the extent of thier crimes we'd piut thier head on a pike and post it outside washington DC? I think they know could not get away with what they do if we all knew.
Why are they all passing the buck around and obstficating and stonewalling when the truth leaks out, and the top brass in the old boy network always seem to evade responsibility while the grunts and lower downs take the heat?

Why do you think that is?

A real leader as I define one will admit wrongdoing and abuse of power and STOP doing it.A real leader isn't evasive and manipulating of his charges when those under him get into deep shit because of HIS plans.. Real leaders are human,they admit mistakes admit they may be unsure,they AGONIZE over decisions,and when they fail they take what they deserve when they fuck up with dignity and wear that earned shame.. and they die if that's what is required to make things right.

We do not have real leaders leading this country or our military. Our country is run by cowards bullies and pigs.Is that why they hide and try to stay faceless hiding in"chains of command" and need to know and secret excuses.Do you agree something is very wrong or not?

>The chickenhawks have done plenty of that. I support the troops and will never apologize for it. However, I do condemn in every possible way those who abuse, neglect and murder our military>

Than encourage the military to do something about the corruption in it! Encourage people to NOT enlist and disobey the drafts the corrupt want..Do something to stop the abuses,the guy who released those Abu Gharib torture shots is a HERO.Yet he was threatened with murder his family too,he went into hiding,and he murdered I believe..TYhis is what dysfunctional abusive people do to people who speak out against abusers,that is why denial runs thick and it keeps abusers happy and in power.Encourage people to resist corrupt authoritarian orders and to not do not participate in them !NO one Can take away your right to REFUSE and RESIST.

They say in the military a fish rots from the head down,Well the shit going on in there now means the head is very rotten,the death stench and guilt of the "leadership" and the relationships they protect waft out despite secret keeping ..Lying as if death and plunder is in OUR national interests..Look it is a symptom of corrupt abuses of power an uncontrollable evil and sickness killing us that exists because of BELIEFS ,and it is spreading down the"chain of command". Because someone WANTS it to someone "helping out" mother nature. Someone who wants a world without love.

How bad does it all have to get before you say Enough? So I think the military is who has to ACT on taking the rot out..If they want their secrets and games to stay that way. Because if the rot gets too far people will not let excuses like national security or whatever be used to protector the corruption that threatens their lives and the other decent people of this world.
If the military doesn't fix itself soon we'll all be dead.

>Don't confuse politics and religion in the military. In the civilian world those have been obscenely melded together. Baptisms, confirmations and other religious expression does happen in the military. It's considered acceptable as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others>.

Well I know certain religions will get you pounded by the christians around you and the Sargent's "look the other way" Why is THAT?

Before anyone mentions the abuse in the Air Force academy, keep in mind the world of the officers is in most cases considerably different than that of the enlisted. When I was in, no one gave a rat's ass who worshiped what.

Well Why is the officers allowed a different world? Are the SpeCiaL?
Or are they disconnected and haughty?I bet grunts see officers differently that offers see themselves and vice versa.That's what elitism does it rots people.

>Don't get me wrong here...I'm not trying to make excuses for the bad behavior of this administration and many other people involved in this atrocious war. I'm just trying to bring a little more understanding of the motivations and how things work on the military side of the coin. As with any group, not all are bad and not all are out with the same agenda as this regime we're living under.>

I agree but if they are not bad going in they face shit that CHANGES them and it is not always a good change.

I personally believe that we as humans have no choice but to evolve.
Evolve.. Evolving implies changing into something else what do YOu think with the state of things as they are,we are evolving into..

I think it's a world without love.
And I would rather die than evolve if that is the"grandee" plan of these elite lizard hearted monsters trying to do their little social Darwinist crap to"help out" nature.Control freaks control nothing....


>If we do not we will ultimately destroy ourselves whether it's this generation or ten generations from now.


I agree Oh destroying the world to dominate it..that is a wonderful goal for the"winners" no world no problem,right? Destroy love and everything good yes that is what all sociopath lovers of death want.
I do not want that obey or die fascist world.Fuck that kind of evolutionary direction.


>I do believe it will be by our own hand no matter how inadvertently it might be unless we work to better ourselves and the world we live in.>

And to save ourselves we need to get some courage,disrespect authority,question authority,question "The Powers that Be", all cherished beliefs and "traditions, ect..and realize the machine we made is grinding us up.. A machine a system,a Web of lies a game of make believe WE made that is not from nature,a sickness is consuming the world through us as if we were agents of cancer..and it will not stop destroying unless people stop playing winner and loser with each other and stop this big game of make believe.And destroy the sociopathic..we can start healing by stopping the war and profit industry right NOW.

We can become RESPONSIBLE for how we relate to one another and protect OUR own freedom by ourselves working together without it being dominated from above. We can make it without a boss or system of control.We were free for a long time,millions of years,before civilization led us HERE to THIS MESS.. So Fuck "leaders" they are all sociopaths with no soul apparently I don't trust anyone wanting power...Fuck their rules and regulations and their paper fetters on us.Fuck the archons.Every.Last.One.

That is how I feel.

[ridgerunner]

15. War is a Racket--Smedley Darlington Butler

WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

In the World War a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.

How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy? How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?

Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. They just take it. This newly acquired territory promptly is exploited by the few – the selfsame few who wrung dollars out of blood in the war. The general public shoulders the bill.

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

[undergroundpanther]

18. It's the Necomonger way

Convert or die, and you keep what you kill. The oldest scam on earth..The bullies cult of winner and loser .The poecking order of sociopaths. Time for the games and scam to end.

Remember the Chronicles of Riddick? It is a cheesy movie I know..But it has a tidbit or two of real wisdom in it..And this applies in the miliatry because the type of evil riddick was is just the thing the military needs to make it a decent outfit again..and not be like a necromonger cult.

In the story premise it said something like...in certain times the forces of good could not fight evil anymore..The good was ineffective, So an evil of another kind has to step up and fight it and change things.So the good people in other words are handicapped in the face of radical abusive evil... And this is what I mean when I say fighting bullies is not the same as fighting a resonable person...this is why liberalism is still failing to fight the neocons .Most liberals are too "good" they are not radical enough or evil enough to do what it really takes to stop the sort of evil the neocons are about.Art sometimes really does imitate life,just not in the way we always assume it does.

http://www.thechroniclesofriddick.com/

[Zorbuddha]

20. Talk about bullies, have a look at this

thread.

Silent US Genocide against the "Heart of the World: Kogi Indians

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4171434

If you haven't seen it, it is situation critical.

http://www.crystalinks.com/kogi.html The Kogi (background info)

[undergroundpanther]

24. Fuck!!

I am so sick of this killer mentality being dressed up as noble deed I could scream.

Dammit the American God fearing "patriots" killed of my ancestors too..in that evil way,for their great civilization parasite that is currently denuding the planet of life the land grab..My ancestors were forced to hide and assimilate with the"whites" marched across to ta barren place(trail of tears)..Fuckers..The fucking government thinks it can tell indians who is an indian too,as if they could ever know..... War is the most evil racket ever and America devotes MOST of our taxes to pay for more war death and torture....and I wish more people would realize they do not need armies to protect them from other people IF their leaders were not such arrogant,selfish,two faced,asshole,bullying,evil sociopath thugs and pirate pieces of shit ,
People need to see the monsters in a "normal guy" suits..for what they ARE.

Dammit.

[solinvictus]

51. We don't need armies?!?!?

"I wish more people would realize they do not need armies to protect them from other people IF their leaders were not such arrogant,selfish,two faced,asshole,bullying,evil sociopath thugs and pirate pieces of shit "

It doesn't matter who the piece of shit is in charge: we will always need a military. Right now, Red China is building its military capacity on the backs of displaced American workers and American consumers too stupid to realize that the cheap shit they purchase is threatening our country's international security. China has stated over and again that they will use overwhelming offensive force against Taiwan once the instant presents itself and they can do so with decisive force. Now, who does Taiwan have security agreements with at present? Us. Where are those billions of dollars of military hardware that Wal Mart, Dollar Tree, and others purchase point? Toward us.

[undergroundpanther]

27. I know about the Kogi

I also knew they were in danger too. For the greed of the rulers will not stop until everything is dead or all the same.
The ruler class is given power by a kind of blind feeding parasite cancer mentality and,a bully consiousness.

[Zorbuddha]

28. Please, help spread the word

Contact anyone you can think of with a voice loud enough to help get this out.

[undergroundpanther]

31. will do

[w8liftinglady]

29. Don't be so sure...

...that these soldiers are walking lock-step with their commanders.I am probably not the most objective person,because my son is a soldier in baghdad(for the second time)...but these boys have little loyalty to anyone but each other.They were mislead by their recruiters,their commanders,including their commander-in-chief.They are doing their jobs as well as they can,and for the most part are trying to keep casualties down to a minimum.But,I can't,in good conscience,allow you to malign my kid,or these countless other kids who are trying to survive their MULTIPLE deployments to Iraq.This is NOT the path we as Democrats need to take.Our soldiers and veterans have been screwed by the Republicans.The other democrats that I meet agree that we need to focus on that group as a large coalition base.Nothing will disenfranchise us more than if we come out against the troops.We can be anti-war(I am),but we really should be advocates for people who have served this country-especially in Iraq,because they will have their own demons to battle when they get back.

[Qanisqineq]

45. well said w8liftinglady

I hope your son makes it home safely. My husband served in Iraq and has been a soldier for 10 years. He didn't join because he had some sick desire to kill. He does not have the killer mentality, nor do the soldiers he works with. Actually, anyone that has the desire to kill is dealt with -- and I don't mean promoted (as some will want to make the snide remark). They are relieved of duty. I am not saying that this is the way it is all across the military, but my husband has been in three different companies in the last 3 years and it is this way in all of them.

I am not a fan of the military at all (but I do understand the need for a military in case we are attacked). I certainly never thought I'd be married to it. I hate war, I hate killing, I hate getting involved in other countries' business, I hate hate. And I hate the way the military treats families, as if they don't really matter. They talk a good talk, but don't actually care. Or so my experience goes. I could never be in the military as I could never handle anyone giving me orders and expecting me to call them sir. Believe me, I hate the military, but that does not mean I hate the soldiers and I am writing them all off as robotic killers. I hate the organization itself.

But I am tired of having to read that all soldiers are this way or that way or someone's bad experience means the entire military is that way. Generalizations. It just isn't true. My husband works with women who can claim they have cramps at any time of the month and stay home for a few days. I myself find that ludicrous, I couldn't do that at my job. There are women that do have serious problems with menstrual cramps, but it is obvious this is being abused -- after all, they aren't paid hourly and won't lose out on anything.

And no, I am not closing my eyes to anything going on in Iraq. I am very much aware of the atrocities, as is my husband who is highly embarrassed for what this has done to the military. But I am open-minded enough to realize that you can't paint a group of over 1 million people with such a broad brush.

[unhappycamper]

40. A picture is worth a thousand words.

http://i17.photobucket.com.nyud.net:8090/albums/b54/unhappycamper/Cambridge-6-14-2005/Camb012-re.jpg

Link to full post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=158x5069

uhc,
Proud member of the Smedley D. Butler Brigade of the Veterans for Peace.

[bloom]

41. I think there are probably

a lot of previously proud military people who liked to believe that the military was a good thing. I don't know how anyone could pretend that now. And probably it never did make much sense.

And so now we have this:

Several senior Air Force officers involved in the
planning are reportedly appalled at the implications
of what they are doing -- that Iran is being set up
for an unprovoked nuclear attack -- but no one is
prepared to damage his career by posing any objections.

http://billmon.org/archives/002051.html


And this interesting comment on military morality:

• On approximately April 27 or 28, 2002, Juma Al Dossari was choked and beaten in his cell by MPs and lost consciousness.  He was carried from his bloodied cell on a stretcher.  The military videotaped the incident.  When Mr. Al Dossari later asked the MP who had beaten him why he had done so, the MP replied, “because I’m a Christian.”

http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/reports/report.asp?ObjID=UsyAjyJ428&Content=599

[undergroundpanther]

43. Torturing infidels for Christ.

Good dog.

I hate this stupid abusive society and this military bullshit fake patriotism.And the fucking zealot fascist religion of the bible excusing it all..I hate all the sociopaths.I wish every one of them would just drop dead.Than maybe I would begin to wonder..maybe there is a good god.
(sarcasm)

[DerekG]

44. Undergroundpanther: Have you read the polemics of Leo Tolstoy?

Sometime in the late 1870's, Tolstoy began his journey into Christian socialism. Soonafter, he would craft one of his masterpieces, "The Kingdom of God is Within You," wherein he denounced statism and militarism. In essence, Tolstoy said that in joining the military, young men were turning their backs on the Prince of Peace, opting instead for a life as a trained killer. A former soldier himself, Tolstoy dismissed his medals as circus ribbons.

Read this and his last novel, "Resurrection," for some pretty radical stuff. "Kingdom," fittingly enough, served as an inspiration for Gandhi.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. If I may intrude.

I have read "Resurrection" and have "Kingdom". I've also read his two big novels "War & Peace" and "Anna Karenina" a couple of times each.

He was, in my opinion (and that of many others), the greatest novelist ever.

He has had more influence on my political thinking than other writer, philosopher, politican, what have you.

Anyway, couldn't help putting my 2 cents in as a great admirer of Tolstoy. A giant.

[DerekG]

47. Your intrusion is greatly appreciated

Although I consider Dostoevsky to be the better novelist, Tolstoy was certainly the better person, and "Kingdom," "Resurrection," and "Divine and Human" changed my life.

Absolutely numinous.