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Mayberry Machiavelli: Will Otis Rove Go To Jail?

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:15 PM
Original message
Mayberry Machiavelli: Will Otis Rove Go To Jail?
{1} Phillips on Machiavelli & an American Dynasty

"I'll play the orator as well as Nestor,
Deceive more slyly than Ulysses could,
And, like a Sinon, take another Troy.
I can add colors to the chameleon,
Change shapes with Proteus for advantages,
And set the murderous Machiavel to school."
-- Shakespeare; Henry VI

Kevin Phillips, the former Nixon White House strategist, uses this wonderful quote in the beginning of the "afterword" in his book "American Dynasty," (Viking, 2004). This book carries a warning, actually the very same that Benjamin Franklin gave in 1787, when asked if the Constitutional Convention had created a monarchy or a republic: "A republic, if you can keep it."

"The political thinker Niccolo' Machiavelli (1469-1527), long a believer in the famous Florentine Republic of the Renaissance, began to lose faith in his later years as the tides of imperial war and ambition -- French, German, and Spanish -- swept across the Italian peninsula, washing away the old republican politics of city-states like Florence and Siena too small to survive on their own. Unlike Machiavelli's less-well-known books, which embraced republican politics and institutions, his most famous volume, The Prince, was dedicated to Lorenzo de' Medici, the duke of Urbino. It encapsulated the techniques, from amorality and fraud to religion, by which ascendant princely rulers might govern most successfully.

"As the 2004 presidential election took shape, another such Machiavellian movement was at hand. U.S. president George W. Bush, while hardly a Medici, was a dynast whose family heritage included secrecy and calculated deception. Harkening to the increasingly imperial self-perception of the United States, the president's theorists and tacticians boasted of taking the advice of Machiavelli and the Chinese strategist Sun Tzu. The late Lee Atwater, chief political adviser to the elder Bush, and Karl Rove, strategist for the younger Bush, friends and collaborators, were both devotees of Machiavelli and The Prince, hardly a coincidence. "
-- "American Dynasty"; Kevin Phillips; pages 320-321

Phillips was not the first author to note the Bush family had a tendency to Machiavellian, of course. One of the strengths of his book is his book is the foundation he builds by quoting other sources: in "Marching In Place," authors Dan Goodgame and Michael Duffy describe Bush1 as "remoreselessly deceitful when it served his purpose." (Simon & Schuster; 1992; page 11)

"George W. Bush is in a class by himself when it comes to prevarication, " authors Drake Bennett and Heidi Pauker note in an article comparing him to LBJ and Nixon, who had previously been considered the best liars of recent vintage. "It is no exaggeration to say that lying has become Bush's signature as president." ( "All The President's Lies"; The American Prospect; May 2003; page 29)

Of special interest, even excluding an infamous "16 words," was President Bush's 2003 State of the Union address. It was described in David Broder's March 9, 2003 Washington Post column as reflecting a "gulf of credibility," and "artful misdirection," as well as being "surreal" and a "bald-faced lie." ("Bush's Tax Brush-Off")

And, in the classic "Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove Made George Bush Presidential," authors James Moore and Wayne Slater write that Rove prides himself in helping the president use the Machiavellian arts. "Perception is reality," Rove is fond of quoting from The Prince. "The great majority of mankind is satisfied with appearances, as though they were realities." (Moore & Slater; 2003; pages 31 & 43)

And so it is no surprise when Phillips, on page 148 of his book, writes that "...American readers of 'The Prince' may feel that they have stumbled on a thinly disguised Bush White House political memo."

{2} Karl Rove's Quest for Power

"...(T)he reign of the Mayberry Machiavellians, in which everything -- I mean everything -- (is) being run by the political arm .... There is no precedent in any modern White House for what is going on in this one: a complete lack of a political apparatus."

This quote from University of Pennsylvania professor John DiIulio, who had been the first director of the White House's Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, explained why he quit in disgust. (See "State of Disunion"; Eric Alterman; The Nation; 2-10-03; page 10) Phillips uses it to, I believe, show the distain he felt for those in the Bush administration who mistakenly believed they were of genius status. Let us look at the Mayberry Machiavellian's very own Otis, Karl Rove.

In this week's edition of Newsweek, in an article titled "Rove At War," author Howard Fineman does his best to portray Rove in a sympathetic light. He was deeply impressed by the Nixon- Kennedy debates in 1960, and decided he not only wanted to be a masterful debator, he wanted to be president. However, unlike young Americans with healthy minds, Karl was not a fan of Kennedy. Fineman notes that Rove's heroes became Richard Nixon and J. Edgar Hoover.

His dream of becoming president ended the day he met George W. Bush, however. Fineman describes Rove as recalling "the scene in a kind of gauzy cinematic slow-mo: 'He was weraing jeans, and a bomber jacket, and he had an aura of confidence and charisma'." The description seems closer to Hoover than Nixon. But, were Fineman to be more honest in his "Rove At War," he might have quoted one sentence from Bob Woodward's "Bush At War." On pages 276-7, Woodward describes Bush throwing out the ceremonial first pitch of the third game in the World Series, between the New York Yankees and the Arizona Diamondbacks. After he tosses the pitch, the stadium erupted. Then:

"Watching from owner George Steinbrenner's box, Karl Rove thought, It's like being at a Nazi rally."

Rove also tells Woodward that "the war would be measured by the outcome. 'Everything will be measured by results .... The victor is always right. History ascribes to the victor qualities that may or may not actually have been there. And, similarly, to the defeated." (pages 337-8) And so began America's response to 9-11.

{3} Karl and Tricky Dick Cheney.

"Draft #6 also contained the line: 'And the regime has been caught attempting to purchase up to 500 metric tons of uranium oxide from sources in Africa, a central ingredient in the enrichment process.

"The basis for this was an unsubstantiated report from British intelligence that Iraq had recently attempted to buy uranium oxide, known as 'yellowcake,' from Niger. The CIA was unsure of this for a number of reasons and had shared its concerns with the British. A former ambassador, Joseph Wilson IV, had been sent to Niger to check out the report and had found nothing to substantiate it. The CIA memo recommended that any reference be dropped from the Cincinnati speech, and it was."
-- "Plan of Attack"; Bob Woodward; pages 201-2.

Woodward's second book on the Bush administration contains a wealth of information on the inner conflicts that took place in the lead-up to the invasion of Iraq. Simply put, "Karl Rove had come to love Cheney." (page 429) This is similar to what Fineman writes in Newsweek: Rove had begun to call VP Cheney "Leadership" as the case for war in Iraq was being made. As Colin Powell and George Tenet expressed doubts about the intelligence Cheney was pushing, Rove became "personally and operationally close to Cheney';s chief of staff, Lewis (Scooter) Libby." (Newsweek; 7-25-05; page 28)

At the same time, Rove came to dislike Powell. "Rove detected a subtle, subversive tendency, as if Powell were protecting his own credentials and his own political future at Bush's expense," Woodward writes on page 12 of "Bush At War."

"Rove was disturbed and felt Powell was beyong political control ... 'It's constantly, you know, "I'm in charge, and this is all politics...",' Rove told Woodward in private. (Bush At War; page 13)

"Rove, for one, was saying privately that he thought Powell had somehow lost a step and that it was odd to see him uncomfortable in the presence of the president." (Bush At War; page 14)

The wek before 9-11, two magazines stood out. TIME ran a cover story, "Where have you gone, Colin Powell?" It was clearly done at Rove's request. And The Weekly Standard's cover story, "The Impressario, Karl Rove, Orchestrator of the Bush White House," had a cover showing a respectable looking Rove with a tiny clownish Bush in his pocket.

{4} Wilson Exposes The Mayberry Liars

"How do you publicly counter a guy like that? As 'senior advisor,' Rove would be involved in finding out. Technically, Rove was in charge of politics, not 'communications.' But, as he saw it, the two were one and the same -- and he used his heavyweight status to push the message machine ..."
-- Newsweek; "Rove At War"; page 30.

Rove's goals are described in Newsweek: surprisingly, they are not to protect President Bush. Rather, Fineman is clear, "The message: protect Cheney by explaining that he had nothing to do with sending Wilson to Niger, and dismiss the yellowcake issue."(pages 30-31) Think of the implications in that; protect VP Cheney by separating him from the mission to Niger and the significance of the yellowcake claim.

As we know, Rove has been caught lying about his role in this effort. We know that he spoke with Time's Matt Cooper, with Robert Novak, and with Chris Matthews. The White House message machine is attempting to dismiss the significance, but it isn't going away. Recent reports show that the issue is not limited to who exposed Valerie Plame. Under another statute, it can be a felony to "willfully disclose information from a classified document. (Newsweek; page 31) This involves the State Department memo, as well as Condi Rice's briefing book. And it goes beyond "Otis" Rove, drunk with power. (Of course, the White House is planning to set-up Colin Powell. I say that we need to keep a close eye on Dick Armitage .... he will not let that happen!)

{5} Conclusions and convictions.

Last week, after Matt Cooper testified to the grand jury, Rove's attorney called Fitzgerald, and asked if he needed to talk to Karl again. "Fitzgerald didn't bite," Fineman reports in Newsweek. " 'We'll get back to you,' the prosecutor replied curtly, and quickly got off the line." (page 32)

Since then, Rove and his gang have been trying to get the neocon machine in gear. But Fineman notes it is hard, because they are trained to attack, not to defend. He notes that Rove's friends are concerned, and Rove is shaken by the "speed ... and direction" that Fitzgerald is moving in. Karl is used to being in control, Fineman writes. But his little Machiavellian play is spinning out of control.

Too bad he didn't study Shakespeare!
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Their hubris is unparalleled in US history...
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 12:23 PM by Cooley Hurd
...right down to this quote from Paul O'Neill/Ron Suskind's book:

"We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality - judiciously, as you will - we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors... and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

I mean, Who the FUCK do they think they are???:grr:

And, do you remember, during the 2000 recount, BEFORE the USSC ruled in their favor, they were already officially calling the Crawford pig ranch the "Western White House?":grr::mad::grr:

Excellent post, and nominated!:thumbsup:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thank you.
I hope it helps bring the Rovian crimes into sharper focus.
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Prisoner_Number_Six Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
50. Only SLIGHTLY full of themselves!
I truly hope we witness the Bursting Of The Bubble for these assholes...

Wanna bet their shit actually stinks just like that of the least little peasant who lives under the off-ramp?
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. I totally recommend American Dynasty!
It lives up to it's subtitle: Aristocracy, fortune, and the politics of deceit in the house of Bush"
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. It's credibility cannot be dismissed, either!
Kevin Phillips is a life-long republican who is obviously alarmed and disgusted by the Bush family (as every American should be)!
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. Video Background-
CBC News - the Unauthorized Biography of Dick Cheney
One of the most powerful and well-connected men in the world, Cheney accumulated total power relentlessly. CBC shows how he accomplished this, what it involved in terms of costs for others and what history's judgement could be.
 
real player
 
---    

BBC Three - Bush Family Fortunes
Investigation by the BBC and Greg Palast
 
windows media player
 
----    

Kevin Phillips - former White House strategist
Phillips spoke at Berkeley, California in January 2004. He exposes four generations of criminal activity by the Bush dynasty
stream  
windows media player
download   
real player

http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/video_elitesecretsocieties.htm
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. Karl Rove described as "shaken"!
Thanks for posting this H20 Man.

The one book you cited, Marching In Place by Dan Goodgame and Michael Duffy contains a chilling quote by George Dubya Bush aboard Airforce One right after Saddam surrendered in the first Gulf War. The word was that Poppy Bush had warned his staff not to gloat over the speed of the victory, but I guess Dubya just couldn't help himself. I am paraphrasing because I don't have the book in hand, but he said something like "Why would ANYONE vote Democrat now?"

George the Warmonger Bush realized way back then how he could manipulate the emotions of a country at war for political gain.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. It's curious ....
how rough and tough guys like Bush2 and Rove are, when someone else is doing the fighting. But as soon as they become a target, as in the grand jury investigation, they get shaken, and aren't so tough after all.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. Grateful, as always, for your post.
Thank you for sorting it out and helping us all connect dots
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. I think it shows
how Rove has a history of manipulating the news, including the Time cover article meant to humiliate Powell. In the upcoming week, I suspect we'll see Rove, Libby, and Cheney's attorneys planting more stories that point fingers at Powell for making the document available.
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Lecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #19
65. I don't get it though
What good is it for them to plant stories to take the heat off of them when it has no effect on any GJ indictments? Not denying that you are right but I just don't see the point of doing that...
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. Maybe, there are those who DO have values & principles.
Imagine that. If you are a moral human being who cares about things beyond your egotistical self,...such possibilities are within your realm.

Yes? :bounce:
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Lecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. LOL you completely misunderstood me
I don't understand why Rove or Libby's lawyers would put leaks out there regarding this case.

I can see the short-term effects...but what will it matter when indictments are made?

Not sure what this has to do with morals...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. Due to public image n/t
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thanks for a great post, H20 Man! Rove will be lucky to go to jail.
Outstanding overview and profile of the BFEE megaturd Karl Rove, WaterMan. I've bookmarked it as a resource.

If I may, I'd like to pile on the list of criminality of that rascally Rove. For instance:



Karl Rove's White House "Murder, Inc."

Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:50:18 0200
By Wayne Madsen.
Online Journal Contributing Writer.

SEP, 2004- On September 15, 2001, just four days after the 9-11 attacks, CIA Director George Tenet provided President Bush with a Top Secret "Worldwide Attack Matrix"-a virtual license to kill targets deemed to be a threat to the United States in some 80 countries around the world. The Tenet plan, which was subsequently approved by Bush, essentially reversed the executive orders of four previous U.S. administrations that expressly prohibited political assassinations.

According to high level European intelligence officials, Bush's counselor, Karl Rove, used the new presidential authority to silence a popular Lebanese Christian politician who was planning to offer irrefutable evidence that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon authorized the massacre of hundreds of Palestinian men, women, and children in the Beirut refugee camps of Sabra and Shatilla in 1982. In addition, Sharon provided the Lebanese forces who carried out the grisly task. At the time of the massacres, Elie Hobeika was intelligence chief of Lebanese Christian forces in Lebanon who were battling Palestinians and other Muslim groups in a bloody civil war. He was also the chief liaison to Israeli Defense Force (IDF) personnel in Lebanon. An official Israeli inquiry into the massacre at the camps, the Kahan Commission, merely found Sharon "indirectly" responsible for the slaughter and fingered Hobeika as the chief instigator.

The Kahan Commission never called on Hobeika to offer testimony in his defense. However, in response to charges brought against Sharon before a special war crimes court in Belgium, Hobeika was urged to testify against Sharon, according to well-informed Lebanese sources. Hobeika was prepared to offer a different version of events than what was contained in the Kahan report. A 1993 Belgian law permitting human rights prosecutions was unusual in that non-Belgians could be tried for violations against other non-Belgians in a Belgian court. Under pressure from the Bush administration, the law was severely amended and the extra territoriality provisions were curtailed.

Hobeika headed the Lebanese forces intelligence agency since the mid- 1970s and he soon developed close ties to the CIA. He was a frequent visitor to the CIA's headquarters at Langley, Virginia. After the Syrian invasion of Lebanon in 1990, Hobeika held a number of cabinet positions in the Lebanese government, a proxy for the Syrian occupation authorities. He also served in the parliament. In July 2001, Hobeika called a press conference and announced he was prepared to testify against Sharon in Belgium and revealed that he had evidence of what actually occurred in Sabra and Shatilla. Hobeika also indicated that Israel had flown members of the South Lebanon Army (SLA) into Beirut International Airport in an Israeli Air Force C130 transport plane. In full view of dozens of witnesses, including members of the Lebanese army and others, SLA troops under the command of Major Saad Haddad were slipped into the camps to commit the massacres. The SLA troops were under the direct command of Ariel Sharon and an Israeli Mossad agent provocateur named Rafi Eitan. Hobeika offered evidence that a former U.S. ambassador to Lebanon was aware of the Israeli plot. In addition, the IDF had placed a camera in a strategic position to film the Sabra and Shatilla massacres. Hobeika was going to ask that the footage be released as part of the investigation of Sharon.

CONTINUED...

http://globalfire.tv/nj/04en/politics/rove.htm



When it comes to the Truth: Don't avert your eyes. Plagiarize. If you have to, to get it out.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I had a feeling
that you were likely not a Rove fan.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Jeez, H2O Man...
What tipped you off?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Intuition.
I just had to pay for my younger son's first semester of college, and so I am familiar with the theory of intition. (grin)
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. Till ya sumpin' ess: Michael Ledeen knows that Niccolo fellah.
If you think Karl Rove know Macchiavelli, imagine what a turd with a college degree can do with "The Prince" in his hip pocket? Mass murder is NOTHING to such men, which helps explain their roles as war criminals.



Everything You Need to Know About Michael Ledeen
 
By Katherine Yurica
April 7, 2005

Would you be surprised to find that a man who was deeply involved in the Iran-Contra scandal during the Reagan Administration, a man who is the darling of the Bush White House and is an adviser to Karl Rove, a man who loves Machiavelli and studies him, a neo-conservative who has close ties to one of America’s leading “Christian” Dominionists—Pat Robertson, and a man who called Pearl Harbor “lucky” and a providentially inspired event—may be the man who is behind the forging of the Niger documents that convinced America to launch a preemptive strike against Iraq?
 
Ian Masters, host of Background Briefing, in Los Angeles, interviewed Vincent Cannistraro, the former head of Counterterrorism operations at the CIA. Cannistraro came close to naming the man who forged the Niger documents. When Masters asked, “If I said ‘Michael Ledeen’?” Vincent Cannistraro replied, “You’d be very close.”

SNIP...

It would be foolish for America’s political strategists and congressional leaders to ignore Michael Ledeen and his interpretation of Machiavelli. Mr. Ledeen speaks from the cutting edge of a group of men and women who desire nothing more than to reconstruct America in their own image. This nation is in grave danger. Ledeen belongs to a group of men, including Harry Jaffa, Pat Robertson, Willmoore Kendall to Allan Bloom, who, according to Shadia Drury, scholar and author of Leo Strauss and the American Right, share “the view that America is too liberal and pluralistic and that what it needs is a single orthodoxy that governs the public and private lives of its citizens.”<1>
 
The belief in a single voice that governs the public should cause all Americans to understand these men want to convert this nation to a permanent dictatorship. Their inspirer was Leo Strauss, a professor who taught Machiavellian methods to many of them at the University of Chicago. In fact, Paul Wolfovitz earned his doctorate under Strauss and many of the neo-cons in the White House studied under him. Strauss believed every society needs a “single public orthodoxy.” As Drury put it, “a set of ideas that defines what is true and false, right and wrong, noble and base.” Strauss believed that the role of religion was indispensable to the political success of a nation. For a political society had to hold together and act as a unit in lock step with the leader. Strauss believed that religion was the means to inculcate the desired ideas into the minds of the masses. He didn’t care what religion—just as long as it was a religion that could link itself to the political order.
 
Michael Ledeen singled out the evangelicals as most like the “Machiavellian” model described by Strauss. Evangelicals, while decrying the aberrant power of a Jim Jones over his congregation, have always had little Jim Joneses telling them what to do and how to live from their pulpits all over America. Evangelicals thirst for power, submit to power, and now are harnessed to a power that is driving them toward the completion of the take over of the USA. Our only hope is to wake up the churches and call them to repentance. And the irony is, as Ledeen points out, if we will stand up and attack the immorality and corruption within the Republican Party, which has reached the lowest depths in the history of our nation, and which the GOP supports, the bedraggled verbally abused Democrats will sit up and notice at long last that they are recognized as the moral leaders they have always been. What Leo Strauss and Michael Ledeen and the other dominionists really hate, is the loving Christian ethics that established FDR's New Deal. You see, the great success of Christian liberalism is that it threatens their greed and that’s what the fight is all about.
 
SOURCE:

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/MichaelLedeen.html





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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Have you heard about: "Karl Rove and the Half-Wit Prince"?
It's a new book by I.M. Howling. I've already got an order in.



Karl Rove and the Half-Wit Prince

By I.M. Howling
07/21/2005

Chapter One

It was nearing midnight and the President was sitting alone in his office, reviewing a long memo about CIA agent Valerie Plame that was slipping through his brain without leaving the slightest trace of meaning behind. He was waiting for a call from former Secretary of State Colin Powell about the memo and between wondering when the wretched man would telephone and trying to suppress unpleasant memories of what had been a very long, tiring, and difficult week, what with the White House being implicated in a government leak of a covert agent's name, the rising death toll in Iraq, and the U.S.' failure, after four years, to catch Osama bin Laden, whose group, Al-Qaeda was responsible for the London bombings, there was not much space in his head for anything else.

The more he attempted to focus on the page before him, the more clearly the President could see the gloating face of Ambassador Joseph Wilson. Wilson had appeared on the news not only to enumerate the President's lie that Saddam Hussein had sought uranium in Niger, but also to explain why the President had misled the American people to embark on a deadly and unwinnable war in Iraq.

He turned over the second page of the memo, saw how much longer it went on, and gave it up as a bad job. Suddenly, he heard a soft cough behind him. It was coming from the froglike little man wearing a long silver wig who was depicted in a small, dirty oil painting in the far corner of the room. Suddenly, bright green flames burst into life beneath his marble mantelpiece. A portly man appeared, spinning as fast as a top.

"Ah, Mr. President," said Minister of Magic Karl Rove. "Good to see you again."

CONTINUED...

http://www.sacurrent.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14893839&BRD=2318&PAG=461&dept_id=484045&rfi=6

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. I hadn't ....
but the first sentence has me sold on it.
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sundancekid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #24
58. you had me at HOW-LO ... please plan for huge printing
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Small world!
What are the chances!

Thanks for adding this. I think that DU has become a heck of a good resource for information tying much of the related cases together.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
8. Good play, Henry VI.
a couple interesting excerpts:

CADE
For our enemies shall fall before us, inspired with the
spirit of putting down kings and princes- command silence.

DICK The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
CADE Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable
thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should
be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled
o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings:
but I say, 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal
once to a thing, and I was never mine own man
since.

King Henry VI by William Shakespeare
ACT IV, Scene II.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Are you sure
that is from Willie Shakespeare? Sounds more like Truman Capote's "In Cold Blood" to me. I wonder if Rove had fantasies reading that?
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
40. Shakespeare never errs
And neither do I, at least about Shakespeare. My mistakes are in other areas . . .

that parchment, being scribbled
o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings:
but I say, 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal
once to a thing, and I was never mine own man
since.

What do you think that bit means?

I don't have a scholarly interpretation to give you. But you know the saying "he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword."

I say, he who lives by Machiavellian maneuvers also dies by them. If Rove can ruin people by spreading lies about them, why can't others ruin him by saying the truth about him? If he chooses to have someone print a story that destroys a woman's career and the careers of her husband and colleagues, why shouldn't his own career be destroyed by such an act? And if in so doing he also jeopardized national security, why shouldn't he pay the consequences?

"I was never mine own man since." He has not been his own man since he started his career of lying and cheating Lord knows how many years ago. When did it start? And when will it end?

Somewhere along the line he made a pact with the Devil, and it will be his undoing one day. I still say that he was once a gifted public servant, and could have used his talents to do wonders for the American people. Instead he used them to ruin many, many people. This will catch up with him -- it is inevitable. Either we will get to see or we won't, but it will happen. I think it is already happening.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #40
51. One often
seals their own fate in surprising ways .... and that parchment, with faded ink, is often more accurate than the best of memories.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. Parchment
or emails, take your pick. The memos, the statements in the SOTU, all these things are going to come back to haunt them.

Once again thanks for a great post. This continues to be a very interesting and complicated issue. The "outing" of Valerie Plame has exposed the * administration as the evil Machiavelli wannabes they are.

I have to admit after reading all this that I am more and more impatient to have the evidence exposed by Fitzgerald. I want to see the results of the grand jury proceedings made public. I want to see it in big headlines in the Washington Post and the New York Times.

The champagne is chilling still, but I'm worried it might go bad before we get to see our frog march. It's odd, but in a sick way I almost (yes, almost) feel sorry for these buggers. As much as I want to see justice, I will be shaking my head with pity when Fitzgerald lowers the boom. This will ruin them, as they have already ruined so many thousands of people.

I wonder if they wish they could take it back. Or if maybe they are just angry that their plans will be exposed. Probably the latter.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
11. Excellent!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. Well, You've Done A Brilliant Job Here
in putting together a much clearer picture and dropping even more breadcrumbs on the path.

In reading about Rove I was struck by a couple of thoughts. I've read the description of his seeing **sh for the first time before and each time it seemed like he was watching his "dream girl", stepping off the train. From that time he has worshiped adoringly at jr.'s feet. It could also be that that vision was everything, pale, pudgy, balding KKK would never be, he would also never be the heir presumptive of a dynasty, so he became jr.'s James Baker (consigliere), becoming the chancellor to the "king". But the Cheney factor is something I wasn't as clear on and it is forceful in terms of Rove's psyche. Is Cheney the father, he never really had, the parent the rumored bastard son has been seeking? And to whom does he owe his greatest allegiance, the love of his life or his adoptive father? In many ways it's a classic story. The beggar at the table rising up to rule the land, and then crashing to earth when all his evil deeds are exposed for what they are.

As for Powell, never was a big fan of his, feeling there was more hype than substance to the man. And his trip to the UN just confirmed for me who I thought he was and wasn't. He was the "good soldier" and ate the lie, spreading it throughout the land, and in doing so, he too has bloodied his hands. Those soldiers who he helped send into a faked and unplanned, mismanaged war should lay heavy on his conscience. I also wonder about the "apple never falls far from the tree" theory, for his son Michael was a disgrace and cut from the same cloth as the neo-cons, those who betray us for money and position.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Howard Fineman discusses
Rove's need to divide the world into "friends and enemies, light and darkness, good and bad, Bush versus Saddam."(page 28) He goes on elsewhere to say that this need, in the context of his political view, "gave him a sense of order and belonging, which he may well have needed. His dad walked out in 1969; in 1970, he learned that he and a brother had been fathered by someone other than the man he had called Dad. (Eleven years later, his mother committed suicide.)" (page 33)

Clearly these tragic events would create issues for Karl. I think that one can feel some sort of compassion for any human being subjected to such extreme circumstances, and recognize how it creates issues with trust. However, it does not give Karl license to create similarly tragic circumstances for thousands of Iraqi and American children.

The description of Rove recalling his first viewing of Bush is too close to Dudley Moore seeing the woman of his dreams in the movie "10" to be ignored.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. "10"
Just so!

As for Rove's difficult childhood, many have endured worse and gone on to turn pitch into gold. The problem for him, I believe, is that he believes the perception is reality business, that is the core substance of his being. Hubris has blinded him to the fact that eventually the "Gods" require payment from those such as he. I'm not surprised that he would be shaken for he doesn't have the substance within that would allow him to shed his snake skin, any more than that chicken hawk he made into a president has it in him to tell the truth and stop living a lie. These are the despicable ones who who will never see redemption for they have lost the intuitive map that recognizes the need to ask for directions, or to change their course because they've taken the wrong road. Come a day when they will find all the filling stations closed. And who, I wonder, is Rove's Banquo's ghost?

So who do you think he will choose if it comes down to it, jr. or the dick?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. Fathers betray
in the strangest ways. He'll stick with his hero.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. So then...
We know Rove was furious with Cheney's office after the David Corn article pointed out it was against the law to "out" a CIA agent, so his anger must have been directed against Libby and not the veep himself, correct? Now who will Cheney stand behind, Libby or Rove, will it come down to war between the two offices if there indictments against Rove & Libby? Is is possible that while Rove might only face obstruction, conspiracy & perjury, that Libby might also face some type of espionage charge? Where does Newt and & Wolfowitz fall into this?

As for Armitage, what power does he have, any weight to pull if he defends Powell? And how did Mr. Smart Guy Powell let himself get taken by this? And, was Ari F. the conduit in setting up Powell? What is his role in all of this?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Good questions, as usual.
We can see that Rove has views of each person playing very specific roles within the administration. Within each of those are the public and the private roles, which he clearly sees as distinct. As Machiavelli wrote, "Everyone sees what you appear to be, few feel what you are."

Rove sees his own role as advisor to the Young Prince. He knows that George W. Bush has a tendency to "talk off the cuff" in such a way that it could damage the way he "appears to be." So Rove practices the great care of Machiavelli: "A prince must take great care that nothing goes out his mouth which is not full of the above-named five qualities, ans, to see and hear him, he should seem to be all mercy, faith, integrity, humanity, and religion." And thus he has packaged Bush for public consumption.

Then Libby and Cheney erred, and allowed a huge mistake to be committed that could seriously wound the administration. Not only "Leadership" and Scooter. But the Prince and the author of this administration.

Rove could admit to himself that he may have done something wrong, but he also was the only one who fully appreciated why he did it. After all, had Fitzgerald read "The Prince"? Could Karl, when under oath, wow a grand jury by quoting a favorite piece from "The Prince": "A man who wishes to make a profession of goodness in everything must necessarily come to grief among many who are not good. Therefore, it is necessary ... to learn how not to be good, and to use this knowledge and not to use it, according to the necessity of the case."

Or would the judge direct him to answer the question?

Karl had felt armed with the Cheney lie about yellowcake. Then the enemy of his America, the man who would challenge his Prince -- Joseph Wilson -- disarmed Cheney. Then, briefly, a man called "Scooter" (with the help of others) armed them with the knowledge that could destroy Wilson, separate Cheney from his lie, and make the yellowcake fade like dust in the wind. Expose Wilson's wife. It was the new weapon -- the neocon's WMD, if you will.

And now Patrick Fitzgerald has taken that weapon from the administration .... and is threatening everything Rove has believed in for 40 years with it. And poor Karl knows that Machiavelli warned his prince: "Hence it comes that all armed Prophets have been victorious, and all unarmed Prophets have been destroyed."
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Part Two of the answer ....
Sorry, I forgot a few things. Regarding Ari Fleischer, Fineman writes that Rove ordered he and Dan Bartlett to trash Wilson by focusing on "who really sent Wilson to Niger" on the president's trip to Africa. It seems that they might claim that Powell made that information available to them in the form of the State Department memo.

When I look at Powell, I remember Arthur Schlesinger Jr quoting a friend on VP Lyndon Johnson, saying that he was a sad example of what happens when an old bull is made into a steer.

In terms of Armitage, I remember saying on a Plame Thread about a month ago that people need to choose their enemies carefully .... and that I think of Wilson as one of the last people that one would want angry at them. Dick Armitage surely fits that description. While both Tenet and Powell seemed willingly to publicly not only "fall on their swords," but to humiliate themselves, I don't believe Dick Armitage would go that way. I think he recognizes what the neocons did to Powell.

Woodward describes him thus: "(Powell) reached Richard L. Armitage, the deputy secretary of state and his best friend. They spoke several times, but real talk was hopeless. Armitage, a 1967 Naval Academy graduate, had served four tours in Vietnam, and later as an assistant secretary of defense in the Reagan administration. He was an outspoken, muscular, barrel-chested man who deplored fancy-pants, pin-striped diplomatic talk. Even before they took over the State Department, Powell ans Armitage talked several times each day. 'I would trust him with my life, my children, my reputation, everything I have,' Powell said of Armitage." (Bush At War; pages 10-11)

When I describe Rove as suspicious of Powell, and hostile to his positions, this includes Armitage. Keep in mind that after Bush's State of the Union in 2003, there was intense pressure from some -- including Cheney -- for Powell to use the Niger lie in his address to the U.N. He refused to do that. Tenet was positioned right behind him during the presentation.

Who would have convinced Powell to refuse to use the Niger lie? Tenet? Maybe. But it might have been Armitage's influence, too. And so when you ask what juice he has, I guess I'd point to that as one example.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Continue Please...
par example, does Armitage have friends behind the scenes who could and would start their own series of leaks? Does Powell know he's being set-up and is he doing anything about it? Can we expect inter cine warfare between the prez and vice pretzel's office? Is there a choosing up of sides going on, ala crips and bloods? Given that Ari "got" the info from Powell and then talked to Rove several times from the plane, is Ari a target for passing the info along? What's Newt's placement in this dung-heap?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. A couple things.
A guy like Armitage, no matter what you think of him, has a built-in system of associations. I always think that one needs to look closely at high-ranking officials with naval experience.

In the Watergate years, the Nixon administration, during the criminal trials of the burglars, wasn't concerned about McCord. They knew that he didn't have first hand knowledge of senior officials being involved. Between him and FBI director Gray, testifying at his confirmation hearings, blew the case wide open.

Now, of course, Armitage isn't directly involved here. And there may be no reason to suspect that he has been talking. But I'll bet that he makes some people pretty nervous.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. Top of shit heap for the Mayberry Machiavellis ?
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 01:43 PM by SpiralHawk
Commander Cuckoobanannas
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
20. It is a certainty that Rove has much nastier secrets.
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 02:24 PM by Zorra
Of course, I'm not insinuating anything at all in this post. Of course I'm not. Karl Rove, as we all know, is a fine, upstanding example of the ideal republican. The essential republican, that would never do anything underhanded for political gain, money, or power - (anything that he wasn't sure that he could get away with without getting caught at least).

So of course I am not insinuating anything by this post, Mr. Fitzgerald sir.....

May 9, 2002

Paul Wellstone is a hunted man. Minnesota's senior senator is not just another Democrat on White House political czar Karl Rove's target list, in an election year when the Senate balance of power could be decided by the voters of a single state. Rather, getting rid of Wellstone is a passion for Rove, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush and the special-interest lobbies that fund the most sophisticated political operation ever assembled by a presidential administration. "There are people in the White House who wake up in the morning thinking about how they will defeat Paul Wellstone," a senior Republican aide confides. "This one is political and personal for them."

That has made it political and personal for Wellstone. The man who decided to abandon a self-imposed two-term limit on his Senate service at least in part because of his determination to block Bush's conservative agenda wears the target with pride. At a moment when most Democrats are still trying to figure out how to challenge a popular President, the former college wrestler is leaping into the ring. Wellstone is not running for cover; he is running to deliver a message about politics in a state and a nation that he believes to be far more progressive than the readers of political tea leaves in Washington could begin to imagine.

"This race is going to be a case study of whether you can maintain liberal, progressive positions and win in this country in 2002," says Wellstone as he campaigns among Laotian immigrants on a sunny spring morning in St. Paul. "We're not running a race that asks people to vote for me because, as a Democrat, I will be a little more compassionate, a little better for working families and children and immigrants, than a Republican. We want to draw the lines of distinction. I'm saying that there is a big difference between the America the conservatives want and the America I want." He adds, "I don't want this to be just about me. This race has to be about basic questions of whether liberals and progressives can flourish in national politics. That means there is a lot more on the line than whether Paul Wellstone wins or loses."

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20020527&s=nichols

ROVE’S ROLE IN MINNESOTA

As this election season shows, the Clintons and Bushes have become the organizing principals of American politics. Their latest field of fire is Minnesota, one of a half-dozen states that will determine control of the U.S. Senate. Bush and Karl Rove, the political consigliere who has been with the family since 1973, personally selected Norm Coleman to challenge the Democratic incumbent, Paul Wellstone. They rearranged the landscape of Minnesota politics to make it happen, cajoling the locals into accepting the roles the White House wanted. Rove scheduled the president into seven visits to the state, including one next week.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3067972/

July
Coleman 46%
Wellstone 42%
Source: Voter/Consumer Research (R) poll for the NRSC, 7/14 - 7/15.

September
Coleman 44%
Wellstone 40%
Source: Public Opinion Strategies (R) poll, conducted 9/8-9.

Wellstone 47%
Coleman 44%
Source: A Mason-Dixon poll, conducted 9/12-14.

Wellstone 46%
Coleman 42%
Source: Minneapolis Star Tribune poll, conducted 9/13-17.

Coleman 47%
Wellstone 41%
Source: Zogby Int'l poll, conducted 9/19-20

October
Wellstone (D)- 46%
Coleman (R)- 37%
Moore (I)- 6%
Tricomo (Green)- 1%
Not sure - 10%

http://greennature.com/article804.html

October 25, 2002

Democratic Sen. Paul Wellstone, his wife Sheila and daughter Marcia died Friday in a small plane crash near Eveleth, Minnesota, that also killed three staff members and two pilots.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/25/plane.crash.minn/

So, obviously, and at the risk of being redundant, I would never suggest that Karl Rove, a man that sold out his country by illegally revealing the identity of a covert CIA agent solely as an act of petty political revenge, would ever do anything as dastardly as arrange the death of a US Senator.

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dalaigh lllama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. Mel Carnahan
a popular democrat here in Missouri, died in a small plane crash, too. He was running against John Ashcroft. Although Mel died weeks before the November election, he still beat John Ashcroft. (One of the funny moments in F9/11.)
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
48. In hindsight, a chilling quote from Sen. Wellstone:
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 09:10 PM by Jim Sagle
This race is going to be a case study of whether you can maintain liberal, progressive positions and win in this country in 2002.


In 2005 the question is whether you can maintain such positions and live to tell about it.
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. and of course
In 2006 the question will be "What is the final solution to the ``liberal'' question?"

In 2007 the "final solution" will be implemented.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
21. Nice post!
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 02:07 PM by gulliver
This is an enjoyable read. I like the invocation of Machiavelli, although I find the "Mayberry" and "Otis" symbols distracting.

Everybody in Mayberry is harmless, even if they're toting a shotgun. It's only the outsiders (from Raleigh, etc.) who represent real danger.

Rove is not a Mayberry Machiavelli. The country is like Mayberry without Andy Taylor. Rove is the outside slickster waltzing into Mayberry and leaving it broke and, if he keeps going, in flames.
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wovenpaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
25. I always look forward to reading your posts
Thanks again for another good one! BTW, I'm (finally ) reading Joe Wilson's book "The Politics of Truth".

Patience is a virtue!
:yourock:

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. I think
Wilson's book has come out in an "updated" paperback version. I'll have to get that to read the updates! Then the folks on DU will have to put up with dozens more threads from me!
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wovenpaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
45. good! n/t
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
27. Will rove go to jail?
I believe that absent an event to declare marshall law, that yes in fact rove will go to jail. The weight of his past is bearing down hard now, and those ghosts are catching up.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. I pray that he looks at the world with black and white bars before him
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Jazzgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
31. This is off the hook.
As usual H2OMan...you nailed it again. With the Plame leak investigation, I have always felt Rove had no control and it is driving him absolutely nuts. You're right about The Prince. They truly do believe all the ideas in the book. When I began to read it I immediately saw the parallels with this misadministration. Excellent summary!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Thank you.
I appreciate that people find reading my contributions to DU worthwhile.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
35. #5 lends weight to what Molly Ivins said about Bush. She said
bush is not good at playing defense.

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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
41. Too bad he didn't study Shakespeare!


it certainly is :applause:


and Karl, when it comes to treason, a rose by any other name...

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
42. "Why The Leak Probe Matters"
This is from a wonderful one-page article by Jonathan Alter in Newsweek, which follows Fineman's article on Rove. He starts by saying that while he had supported the war in Iraq at first, and even hopes that some good eventually can come from, that he does not think history will treat Bush kindly. He notes that not only has Bush's leadership been a "fiasco," focused primarily upon rewarding his wealthy friends with tax-cuts during this expensive adventure, but more: Bush has not been honest about why he brought the nation to war. He then focuses on the lies:

"Why do I mention this now? Because for all the complexities of the Valerie Plame case, for all the questions raised about the future of investigative journalism and the fate of the most influential aide to an American president since Louis Howe served Franklin D. Roosevelt 70 years ago, the story is fundamentally about how easy it was to get into Iraq and how hard it will be to get out."

Alter then notes that it is no longer a question that the administration purposely "cooked" the intelligence, as indicated by the DSM. And he writes that when Wilson dared confront their fictions, they decided to "fix" him, too.

"Was Plame 'fair game,' as Karl Rove told Chris Matthews? George H.W. Bush didn't think so. Even after Wilson embarrassed the president publicly, Bush Sr. wrote Wilson --whom he had appointed to various ambassadorial posts -- to congratulate him for his service and sympathize with him over the outing of his wife. The old man was head of the CIA in the 1970s and knows the consequences of blowing the identities of covert operatives.

"But does his son? A real leader wouldn't hide behind Clintonian legalisms like 'I don't want to prejudge.' Even if the disclosure was unintentional and no law was broken, Rove's confirmed conduct -- talking casually to two reporters without security clearances about a CIA operative -- was dangerous and wrong. As GOP congressman turned talk-show host Joe Scarborough puts it, if someone in his old congressional office did what Rove unquestionably did, that someone would have been promptly fired, just as the president promised in this case. Scarborough, no longer obligated to toe the pathetic Republican Party line, say's it's totally irrelevant if Joe Wilson is a preening partison who misled investigators about the role his wife played in recommending his Niger trip. The frantic efforts of the GOP hit squads to change the subject to Wilson show their fears that Rove -- the master of their universe -- will be held accountable for his destructive carelessness. .....

"If Bush isn't a hypocrite on national security, he needs, at minimum, to yank Rove's security clearance. 'Whether you do it intentionally or unintentionally, you have not met the requirements of that security clearance,' Mahle told me"

Alter discusses the damage Rove did to the CIA and to US security with Melissa Mahle, a former CI covert operative turned author. His article is definitely worth reading.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. bookmarked
thanks as always :toast:

peace
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
44. Rove is ChumP!
:)

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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
46. Nice cartoon
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Wow!
That's great.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
52. Once again, excellent work, H2O! :-) The parallels between....
...the chief prosecutor of the Nuremburg Trials, Justice Robert Jackson, and Fitzgerald are growing with each passing day.

Good link here:

Stonewalling Justice
US Opposition to the ICC

<http://hir.harvard.edu/articles/1239/>
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
54. Dat Two: from "Plan of Attack"
On January 25, 2003, Scooter Libby was given the task of informing the top senior officials with the Office of Special Plan's interpretation of a 40-page CIA study of Iraq that Tenet and McLaughlin had sent to Bush and Rice.

This was at a time when Powell and Armitage had expressed concerns that VP Cheney had lost the ability to be objective when examining intelligence reports. One of them told Woodward that Cheney had developed a case of "war fever." The vice president felt every report had hidden significance that justified the aggressive military policy he was advocating.

Libby worked closely with Cheney on a daily basis. Libby took the position that the CIA and other intelligence agencies were unabled to properly evaluate the intelligence they were sifting through. This takes on more significance when we remember that Cheney and Libby were pressuring CI to confirm the Niger story.

The Office of Special Plans had but two men reviewing the intelligence reports that would find their way to the VP. It is safe to say that, no matter what short-comings CI may have had, no two man review operation could possibly be capable of processing intelligence reports in a more insightful and objective manner.

Libby's hour-long presentation, given in the Situation Room, was given to Rice, Hadley, Armitage, Wolfowitz, Dan Bartlett, Michael Gerson, Karen Hughes (no longer a White House staff member), and Karl Rove. Libby made clear that between himself and Doug Feith, they had determined that Saddam had an active WMD program which was producing and concealing chemical and biological weapons, and that they had numerous and strong ties between Saddam and Usama bin Laden. Woodward writes that:

"Armitage was appalled at what he consideredoverreaching and hyperbole. Libby was drawing only the worst conclusions from fragments and silky threads.

"On the other hand, Wolfowitz, who had been convinced years ago of Iraq's complicity in anti-American terrorism, thought Libby presented a strong case. He subscribed to Rumsfeld's notion that lack of evidence did not mean something did not exist. He was taken with possible ties between Iraq ans al Qaeda. The absence of firm evidence was to be expected because al Qaeda had tight operational security, so good that some heads of state had wondered to Wolfowitz whether former KGB officers were not training al Qaeda. Some Arab leaders thought it was Israel's Mossad. Wolfowitz had been pushing the CIA to investigate whether former East German security services were involved. He thought it was more than coincidence that al Qaeda, which had been relatively inactive since 9/11, had resumed activity after the president had gone to the U.N. and threatened unilateral action against Iraq. That included the October 12 bombings of a nightclub in Bali that killed 202, the shooting of two U.S. Marines in Kuwait and an attack on a French oil tanker off the coast of Yemen in the span of a week.

"The most important response came from Karen Hughes. As a communications exercise, she said, it didn't work. The sweeping conclusions at the head of each section were too much. The president, she said, wanted it to be like the old television series Dragney -- 'Just the facts.' Letpeople draw their own conclusions.

"Rove, who had the Top Secret/codeword security clearances, thought Libby's presentation was very compelling and very strong -- also incredibly scary. He was particularly struck by the evidence that Saddam had hundreds of millions of dollars, probably several billion, from illicit oil revenue that could be used to buy WMD. For Rove, it was a potent, deadly combination -- a history with WMD, a desire for more, scientists with the know-how, a closed police state and a bunch of money. He was fascinated to see the differences in the approach of Libby with his lawyer's mind, and Hughes with her comunicator's mind. He was on Hughes's side. This was a communications problem, not a legal one. Even the best advocacy entailed presenting facts and letting people reach their own conclusions. He, for one, was convinced." (Woodward; "Plan of Attack"; pages 290-1)

In the next 24 hours, Rice, Hughes, and Dick Cheney would tell Colin Powell that it was his job to present their case to the U.N. They would urge him to make a 3-day presentation. He was encouraged to present the Niger "intelligence" that President Bush had high-lighted in his State of the Union address. While he was willing to humiliate himself, he did draw a line on both the length of the presentation and the Niger lie. Someone obviously convinced him not to do everything he had been instructed to do.

Any guesses who?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. And The Info Keeps On Coming
Keep the details coming...Tenet?
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #54
59. my guess would be
Tenet, also. Come, fess up. Who warned Powell not to repeat the Niger lie?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Waiting For Answer To Pop Quiz
and anything else that might come along
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Wouldn't you know it.
H gives us a pop quiz then disappears. Rat.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. I'd already given the answer.
Of Tenet, Powell, and Armitage ..... who was standing up? I'll give another clue: when a mid-level official said he could "bridge" the gap, Armitage said, "I've known all those fuckers for thirty years. You ain't bridging shit." Another clue: in 2003, when discussing the VP's cult pressuring Powell, Armitage would tell his best friend, "Tell these people to fuck themselves."

These gems are found, among other places, in Woodward's "Plan of Attack."
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
56. Hitting the nail on the head, H20 Man!
It's like watching a slow motion train wreck with this story slowly unfolding. I can't wait to see them marched in front of the cameras, trying to defend their traitorous acts and misdeeds. Kicked and nominated!

:kick:

:yourock:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. When we realize that
last week's news was mainly the lawyers for senior White House officials attempting to spin events to make their clients look good .... it becomes apparent that we are in for a hell of a show.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
64. Your discipline and capacity to assimilate information,...
,...never ceases to amaze me. The contributions to this thread are inspiring.

If only we were willing to chisel this judicial case down to a lesson understood by ALL PEOPLE.

Never take your knowledge for granted. That knowledge is a HUGE painful burden,...truth does that. Meanwhile, we can embrace eachother, every day, as we work through this common struggle. :hug:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #64
69. "That knowledge
is a HUGE painful burden ...." I suppose it is for the poor people that have to listen to my nonsense!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
70. Well.
This Plame business sure is interesting. Isn't it?
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
71. Bravo!
To this whole thread and all its contributors! :toast:
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hippiegranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
72. to answer the subject line
I was at a party this weekend, all the guests were Dems and most were pretty well informed, (but no DU-ers, so probably "typically" informed.) Every last one of them think that Rove will walk. People no longer have faith in justice or fairness. They see the corruption as so pervasive there is no chance of the right thing being done on our behalf. Sad, really.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Now, HippyGranny!
You should be inviting a Water Man to those parties! Give me an Irish beer, and I'll sing some old ballads that tell Rove's past, present, and future.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
73. Kicked and bookmarked!
Rove has the worst kind of inferiority complex. I can't remember where I read about this, perhaps it was in Wilson's book, but I seem to recall reading about how Rove SCREAMS on the phone when events don't conform to his perfect world order, screaming obscenities like, "I'm gonna fuck him like he's never been fucked before!" He imagines himself as some kind of "tough guy". Real tough guys like Armitage are going to have to school him on more than just Shakespeare!

:kick:
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