why i will never take the new york subway ever again:

[unblock]

my guess is that 99.9% of all searches will be a complete and utter waste of time. only 1 in 1,000 will not be a waste of time.

my guess is that, of the remaining 0.1%, 99.9% of THOSE will seizings, warnings, or other enforcement of law entirely unrelated to terrorism. that means only 1 in 1,000,000 will be related to terrorist.

my guess is that, of the remaining 0.0001% NONE of THOSE will make a damn bit of difference as to the number of incidents of actual terrorism. in fact, some of them may turn out to be DECOYS to distract the police from the real point of entry for a terrorist attack.


so, in a nutshell, this does ABSOLUTELY ZERO to address terrorism, so it is a COMPLETE LIE to say that this is has anything to do with prevention of a terrorist attack.

in fact, this has EVERYTHING to do with circumventing the fourth amendment and the basic civil liberties we have that inconvenience the police in their enforcement of unrelated laws.

i will never ride the subway again.

i have nothing to fear, i have nothing to hide, but i have everything to protect.

besides, i need the exercise.





http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8660152/

The Associated Press
Updated: 1:52 p.m. ET July 22, 2005
NEW YORK - Subway riders seemed resigned to random bag searches Friday as police across the region stepped up transit security in response to the new round of attacks in London.

“They should have done this long time ago, ever since 9/11,” said Manhattan stockbroker Ron Freeman, 25, who had his backpack searched on Friday morning at a subway station in Brooklyn. “I don’t mind if they’re doing it for the right cause.”

Random searches also are being conducted on buses, ferries and commuter railroads. Anyone who refuses a search won’t be allowed to ride. Those caught carrying drugs or other contraband could be arrested.

[WatchWhatISay]

1. If you were in charge of the problem

How would you solve it?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. Metal detectors at turnstiles and only searching people where

probable cause exists

[TomPainesBones]

10. Do you live in NYC?

Do you have any idea what metal detectors would do to the subway system?

What is it, something like four million riders a day? In a very condensed area? This isn't the airlines we're talking about. It would shut the system down. Imagine rush hour with millions of people racing to work, taking all their metal, jewelry off - including shoes, being 'wanded', etc. Ridiculous.

Only searching people where probable cause exists? If you can get into the system at ONE point you can travel to ANY point in the system.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. I used to live in NYC and have been there many times

It CAN be done...people needn't remove their shoes to create a baseline of protection.

So you favor random searches of anyone without cause?

[TomPainesBones]

38. Actually, I don't favor random searches.

If for no other reason than because it's pointless and won't stop those who are bent on causing harm in the system.

I have metal in my shoes and have never NOT had to remove them once passing through a metal detector at the airport.

The removing shoes issue aside, metal detectors in the subway system WILL shut it down. A 20 minute commute would turn into hours. Plus most stations aren't large enough to handle the log jam at rush hour.

There's so many reasons it wouldn't work.

[MsTryska]

41. would metal detectors slow people down anymore than

turnstiles already do?




what we need is newer technology tho, i think.

MRi or safe X-ray technology or something for humans.

[moez]

30. What constitutes "probable cause"?

[unblock]

7. many obvious enforcement tools are fine.

but randomly searching every fifth passenger is just ridiculous.

first, i'm of the firm believe that doing NOTHING is perfectly acceptable. we frankly do not experience sufficient terrorist attacks to divert money and effort from other priorities. more people die from lightning than from terrorism, fer crying out loud.

but if we must do 'something', here are some things that are perfectly fine:

adding sensors to detect explosives is fine.
adding more and better entry and exit points for emergency use.
adding better fire prevention capabilities.
adding better emergency rescue/response capabilities.
adding more police is fine.
searching people where there is reasonable suspicion of criminal activity is fine.
infiltrating terrorist groups or otherwise improving intelligence gathering about terrorist activities is fine.

searching bags is just plain stupid as a terrorim prevention technique. i mean, really!

[marions ghost]

13. it's good PR

it makes people "feel safer" even if it is really no deterrent. It's a show of doing something, so you can avoid doing the things that would really make a difference.

[Gormy Cuss]

19. My assessment too.

It's like the shoe removals at airports. It's mostly to make Joe Citizan feel he's doing his part.

The so-called "random" bag checks are utterly useless if indeed they're pulling aside every 5th or 10th passenger. Someone intent on doing harm can figure out the interval in a New York minute.

[unblock]

21. they ARE doing every 5th person

which means you now have to budget extra time for getting searched.

i wonder what they would do with my laptop. would they make me turn it on like in the airports? what if my battery is dead?

[Eric J in MN]

20. Dogs who can sniff bombs makes sense.

Random searches don't.

[unblock]

22. bingo (or maybe dingo?) nonintrusive observation is fine.

[Garth Beaumont]

27. I have no idea.......

contained blast, tubular effect? A bomb in this environment would be devastating!

[KG]

2. and the sheeple just submit.

just so long as they get home in time to see the 'american idol' finale. :eyes:

[dogday]

4. They just announced they are putting big brother

in the subways like London. I don't care what people say, get ready police state..... Can I see your papers and open your bag and take off your clothes.....

[napi21]

5. I only wish I had the opportunity to ride a subway to get around!

I'm a long way from access to MARTA in Atlanta, and there is no bus service near me either!

I'm 61, and my house is paid for. I can't afford another home near public transportation!

They're not checking EVERY package/backpack, and it's no worse than taking off your shoes at the airport.

If that's your only reason for not riding the subway, that's sad.

[unblock]

8. i told you i needed the exercise, too :)

and i don't see what's so 'sad' about trying to preserve my rights.

if you disagree, feel free to do so, my position may not be for everyone, fine. but there's no need to describe my views as 'sad'.

[bluestateguy]

6. They're going to spend most of their time confiscating drugs

And of course arrest them and make a big fuss about somebody carrying a little bag of marijuana.

We really don't have time for the "War on Drugs" anymore. If this is a "Post 9/11 world", how about ending the Drug War NOW and diverting those law enforcement resources to counter-terrorism?

[dogday]

9. That is exactly what they are doing with

the patriot act! They are busting people for drugs right and left with a little sneak and peek. You never know they have been there, never know until they come to arrest you that is....

[Warren DeMontague]

16. Mr. State guy, you obviously make way too much sense

anyway, protecting the subways from pot smokers IS counter-terrorism! :sarcasm:

[the_spectator]

18. I don't think the NYPD wants to use this to catch people with drugs -

They've made it very clear that it is only backpacks and other large packages or bags that they will search. If you're holding, you just need to keep it in your pockets.

[TomPainesBones]

23. They've already said

anyone caught with "contraband" will be arrested.
This is their dream come true.

[the_spectator]

29. I'm sure that anyone caught with contraband WILL be arrested -

But as they are only inspecting bags, not stuff directly on your person, no one should be stupid enough to get caught. Im in the NYC area myself, and the news has been explicitly clear in sending the message that this is a bags-only search. Of course, if you have something illegal in your bag, they can then arrest you and search the rest of you. This is the NYPD, not some red-state small-town police force with too much time on its hands. I still think that they really DON'T want to use this to catch people for drug possession.

[TomPainesBones]

33. Probable cause still applies.

And we all know how that can be abused.

There's plenty of Police dogs in the stations now too - "Hey Fido, why you sniffin that Rasta's crotch?"

That's just ONE possible scenario.

[the_spectator]

34. You may be right -- I'm going to be real interested

to see how this all plays out!

[unblock]

11. let's think of the cost-benefit analysis:

q: mayor bloomie, how many police will be added to search every 5th passenger?
a: oodles, many oodles of additional personel. but mostly, they will be diverted from protecting and serving people on the surface.

q: bloomie, how much will it cost?
a: gazillion, many gazillion, but mostly, funds will simply be diverted from saving and improving lives for people on the surface.

q: bloomie, how many terrorist attacks will you foil by random searches?
a: well, over the next 10 years, we estimate approximately zero. but we'll have the satisfaction of knowing that any terrorists will have to plan just a tad harder to avoid that 20% chance of getting searched. maybe they'll have to run instead of walk, or blow up a crowed terminal instead of a crowded train. but it will be very satisfying knowing they had to reeeealy WANT it, and that makes it all worthwhile.

q: thank you for keeping us so safe, bloomie. are there any more basic liberties we can offer up to you?
a: that is all for now, but you'll know soon enough when i've taken away more of your rights.

[Laughing Mirror]

35. Oh, that's good. Really good!

Perfect cariacature. I can hear clearly the great mayor of New York, that nasal high-pitched quack of his, quacking away at those lines.

Thanks for the chuckle! That's that clown Bloomberg spot on.

[CountAllVotes]

12. its like closing the barn door

after the horse has run out. Too damn late.

Next?

:kick:

[DELUSIONAL]

14. Learned helplessness -- Psychological manipulation

This stuff is text book and anyone who has had even an introductory course in Psychology -- or even Sociology should recognize the fear inducing intimidation for what it is.

When you hear people being interviewed saying "I feel safer now" -- this is merely a symptom of Learned Helplessness. Text book examples.

[unblock]

25. and of course it actually makes you feel LESS secure

this goes beyond marty seligman learned helplessness and into the realm of abusive control.

abusers can retain control by creating the illusion that there is much to fear out there and that only your abuser can or will protect you from it.

the best way to feel safe is to either address the problem directly or to remove yourself from it. if you constantly dwell on it, even if dwelling on how to protect yourself from it, you only inrease your fear. FOUR years after 9/11 we haven't had a single terrorist attack here and yet we're all still freaked like it could happen every other day on any street corner.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. But think of all the potheads they will round up!

Mmmmm, the mind reels with joy.

[sandnsea]

17. They've always had this right

They've been doing random searches for various reasons for quite a while. DUI checks comes to mind. My son had to show his ID on a bus in Texas, in an INS search. That or be thrown off the bus. Blonde white kid might be an illegal alien, doncha' know. There was also a case that went to the Supreme Court, someone was searched on a bus and they found drugs. Not a violation of his civil rights. Then, there's the little cameras that take pictures of you and send you speeding tickets. I don't like any of it, but it isn't just related to terrorism.

[Nevernose]

24. I got into an argument w/ INS a 100 miles or so outside of El Paso

In a random immigration checkpoint on some pissant highway. Wife and kids were in the car, and there was nobody on Earth that could mistake our family as being in the US illegally. Hell, I have an East Texas twang -- I couldn't even be mistaken for a Canadian!

Even after giving them my driver's license, they wanted me to prove my citizenship. Exactly HOW was never mentioned, but they were pissed that I couldn't do it.

I suspect it was because of my Nevada ID. They probably don't get a lot of Nevadans along that stretch of road, and thought the concept of someone wanting to see the country on anything other than an interstate highway was at the least bizarre, and probably illegal.

[unblock]

26. the fact that you couldn't prove your citizenship is actually good evidenc

the fact that you couldn't prove your citizenship is actually good evidence that you ARE a citizen. most citizens don't carry around birth certificates or passports. only an illegal alien would be clutching (forged) papers at all times!

:evilgrin:

[Carni]

28. The random aspect is asinine

Not sure what I think of the searches in general (I tend to be against them but I don't live in NYC)

Why don't they just use common sense and search people with large bags, or baggy clothing?

Wouldn't that make more sense if they insist on doing this?

[unblock]

31. the 'reason' they do it this way

is because it's very easy for someone's idea of 'using common sense' to turn into discrimination on the basis of race or ethnicity.

explicitly random or every fifth passenger protects them from this accusation.

so this way, we're equally inconvenienced. but it's lost on them that we're all inconvenienced and they focus on that they get to be seen 'doing something' about terrorism.

[mdmc]

32. this effort comforts the public psyche

like the PATRIOT act.

[dutchdemocrat]

36. Ride more bikes

Like us urban dwellers in Holland where 75 percent of the population rides to commute.

[Laughing Mirror]

39. Holland is much better set up for bikes than New York

So is Paris. So is Berlin. Other than a nice bicycle path running along the Hudson, New York City hasn't expanded bike lanes or done any other things to attract bike riders onto the actual city streets, and up and down the break-neck four-lane avenues.

I think that it scares a lot of people to be on a bike on the streets of New York. The street planners certainly make few concessions to people riding bikes. But maybe with the constant hassle of all the hysterical bag searching on the subway people will be driven back to the open air, and being on a bicycle racing down Broadway going with the flow will become all the rage. It would be great.

[AndreaCG]

40. I commute from midtown Manhattan to the Bronx

Not having ridden a bike since I was a kid, and going through some rough neighborhoods, make that an impossible solution for me.

I can take an express bus to work but it is further than the subway and runsl less frequently.

Frankly if they want to search my bag I will cheat and show them my court clerk ID and see if that gets me out of the search. Maybe, maybe not.

[seabeyond]

42. i havent been on a plane since 6 months after 9/11 and the way they

treated me. i dont do stupid. i dont care what anyone says, a 43 year old woman living in the panhandle of texas is not going to blow up a plane at 6 am, before enough coffee, with her 5 and 7 year old sons, and husband,......off for a week vacation in florida.

dont give me the random shit. it is not protecting a single person. it is stupid. and it is not going to stop terrorism

i dont accept it. simple as that

then to send a man over to intimidate me, cause i dared to grumble, this is a bunch of crap, IS a bunch of crap.

lose my dollars. i can drive. i dont need ot go anywhere, bad enough

[brindis_desala]

43. Thank for this post. I have been perusing DU in my few spare moments

(hectic lately) and been appalled at the great pace with which purported progressives not only leap to accept highly suspect government "accounts" but would support costly and rather lame-brained intrusions upon their rights on the timorous notion that the state a, can, or b, has any interest in saving us from hypothetical acts of "terror" when govt. has starved NYC's funding for first responders, (that should have Bloomberg's first cry) slashed the Coast Guard budget and left our chemical plants as volatile targets. If this is the knee-jerk response from the informed "liberal" segment of the political spectrum democracy is doomed. I pray the true balance lies in your favor.

[geek tragedy]

44. It would be nice to have that option, but those of us who live and work

in different boroughs need to take the subway.

I'm just going to take a bag to work less frequently.

[Salluc]

45. Exactly!

For those if us who live in NYC, this is a really complicated issue.

We are going to be hit again. We have assumed since 2001 that we will be hit on our subways. And yet, we are completely dependent on mass transportation to get to our jobs. Unfortunately, we are not a bicycle friendly city...and biking deaths (hit by trucks and/or cars) are not uncommon here.

I'm very sensitive to privacy issues...and this move by the police is disturbing in this light...but we - New Yorkers - have no viable or realistic choice but to get on our subways every day.