London Police got THE WRONG FUCKING GUY

[Modem Butterfly]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/23/london.tube/index.html

This poor bastard ran from five armed men. Gee, why would you do that? How foolish, thinking that you couldn't trust the police. It's not like they NEVER FUCK UP and accidently KILL PEOPLE.

:grr:

[Taxloss]

1. This is an unprecedented incident.

It is being closely investigated.

[skooooo]

2. Wow ok...

I have a hard time feeling sorry for the poor bastard who jumped a turnstile, and didn't stop when he was told to the day after a bunch of bombs were set to go off. Honestly, what exactly are the police to do? Let people running around in coats in July jump turnstiles and disobey orders to stop?

[tk2kewl]

4. what would you do if you were chased by guys in plain cloths with guns?

let me know after it happens to you.

[Taxloss]

This is Britain.

People do not have guns. They would have shouted "Armed Police! Get Down!" as the people on the train reported they did. What part of that is not clear?

[tk2kewl]

13. there was a guy not far from my house that was pulled over by a

fake cop, robbed and shot dead.

[beam me up scottie]

19. You live in London ?

[tk2kewl]

26. no

do you?

[beam me up scottie]

31. I'm not the one pretending

that shootings are an everyday occurence in foreign cities.

[tk2kewl]

42. did i say a single thing whatsoever about the frequency of shootings

in london? i said it's not unnatural to be afraid when people with guns are after you.

[Benbow]

72. It is even more natural to be afraid of suicide bombers

[ret5hd]

78. not really...

what's the incidence of people dying from suicide bombers per 100,000 people in your city...compared to gunshot?

[Benbow]

84. The trouble is, with a gunshot you have a good chance of surviving

but with suicide bombers, it will be days before the emergency services have found enough of your body to give it back to your family for burial.

Please have a frigging heart - this is not about how statistically likely you are to be blown up.

[ret5hd]

97. well then, i guess i should be REALLY REALLY worried...

that a grizzy bear will attack me if i visit alaska...
or SHARKS! (it's shark week isn't it)
or, at the time, that iraq would shoot an atomic missile at the u.s.

after all, it's not about the likelyhood of it happening...it's the internal drama we've built up in our heads.

Read this: The Culture of Fear: Why Americans Are Afraid of the Wrong Things by Barry Glassner

[Benbow]

113. No, it's about how risk-averse people are - and everyone is different

Alaska is so much bigger than London, and so much less populated, and not the capital of any country, and its Prime Minister is not Bush's poodle, and so on.

Fox News is already telling its audience that Iraq (or Iran) is about to nuke Washington.

[ret5hd]

119. my point exactly...

as i said, it's not about the likelyhood of an event...

[tk2kewl]

80. i understand that you might feel threatened...

and you're willing to give up some liberty for safety. i was pretty angry and scared living in NYC after 9/11, but i am definitely not interested in an american police state.

[Benbow]

85. The US is pretty well a police state, and the UK is nowhere near being one

[beam me up scottie]

89. Exactly.

How ignorant to believe otherwise.

[chascarrillo]

158. They are in London

An average of two homicides by firearms every three days in London. But don't let the facts stop you from making assertions...

[KG]

61. see, it happened in london, so that makes it all ok.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[H2O Man]

91. It is complicated.

And there are not easy answers; anyone who says there is, is clearly wrong. But the British do have a history of violence towards communities that they consider to be both "at risk" and "of lesser human value." Many of the tactics that US special forces having been employing on "terror suspects" are those that were developed in Northern Ireland since the 1970s. Many of us are familiar with events that are not unlike the death of this "suspect."

I admit that I am not entirely objective on this topic. It is not entirely one-sided. Surely, these cops are under a huge amount of pressure, and were not going out to have the pleasure found in killing an innocent man. They will likely carry a burden for trying to do what they thought was right. Yet the victim's burden is greater.

[beam me up scottie]

96. I have been listening to the coverage of the events in London

since it began.
I do not listen to the American news media, which may be why I'm more "objective" than others.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KG]

127. come on, don't be that way. i'm really interested!

i'm sure i'd find your simplistic explaination of all these very complicated justifications for the killing an innocent man to be highly amusing to read! :eyes:

[Modem Butterfly]

48. No bad guy would ever pretend to be something he's not

No, that would never, ever happen.

[H2O Man]

79. Not many years ago

I used to do trainings with police, on how to deal with the mentally ill in the community. I am not saying this person was mentally ill, or not. But a couple things seemed curious to me. One of the things that is often a clue that a person might be experiencing symptoms of such an illness is wearing clothes that don't fit the season. Might be a heavy jacket in the summer, or just a t-shirt in the winter.

If a person was, say, mildly psychotic, but breaking no law, just walking down the street ..... he or she is far, far less likely to commit a violent crime than to be the victim of one. If five people, in or out of uniform, came at such a person, he would likely run.

I have no idea what the exact circumstances are. But I see us becoming a world that crushes the most vulnerable among us, in the name of law & order.

[Benbow]

90. Unfortunately, that might turn out to be the case - however, the mentally

ill are, some of them, a risk to others as well as to themselves.

[H2O Man]

94. Well, many drivers

pose a potential risk to themselves and others, as well. Hope the police don't begin executing them. (Perhaps those using cell phones while driving deserve to be shot, however.)

[Benbow]

109. Yes, those using mobile phones while driving ...

[beam me up scottie]

"I have no idea what the exact circumstances are"

Thank you for admitting that.
Now if we can get everybody else in this thread to admit it, we can stop the hysteria.

[H2O Man]

99. I think there can be

very serious concerns, without those concerns being called hysteria. I also think that it is worth considering that as harshly as people here view this, there is little doubt how this event is playing in the Muslim world.

[beam me up scottie]

117. Blaming the cops

without any evidence and claiming that they are shooting innocent "brown" people with reckless abandon qualifies as hysteria in my book.
It's irresponsible at best and belongs in the PCT category.

[H2O Man]

124. Maybe you would benefit

from listening to something a little more informative than that British news. Actually, I think you are making valid points, at least in about 90% of what you are saying. But I think that the other 10% is a little off. I think that the intense hatred that this incident will stir up -- and I'll bet that it will include some brown skinned people -- has a heck of a lot more to do with the shooting than the posts on DU that you seem to find more offensive than the killing in question.

[beam me up scottie]

130. I do listen to other independent news organisations.

And I also listen to the people who live there, as well as in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East.
Perhaps you should as well.
People in America are trying to view this incident the way they do police shootings in Cincinnati and LA.

Misinformation and inflammatory statements ARE dangerous, regardless of what others may think.
Or did you forget what happened in the days following Sept. 11 ?

[Benbow]

132. The police have apologised, and one priority now is damage-limitation

with the Muslim community, as well as the formal inquiry.

[H2O Man]

139. I view it

as I view the killings in Ireland. And I've seen little evidence that anyone confuses the event with LA. It might be closer to something that would occur on Pine Ridge. And I agree that attempting to connect his death with anything related to 9-11 is dangerous.

[beam me up scottie]

152. Read the thead.

Every other post is by someone citing shootings in America.

[H2O Man]

167. I've read the thread.

But, as I pointed out, no one is mistaking it for LA. And, as I said, it could be compared to other killings without mistaking it for them. You wouldn't be so upset, I hope, if I said that the US war in Iraq is similar to Vietnam. Even though you may have little regard for my opinion, you hopefully recognize that I could find both Iraq and Vietnam on a globe.

[beam me up scottie]

170. delete

inexcusable behaviour on my part

[Modem Butterfly]

190. Self-delete

[beam me up scottie]

196. It wasn't meant as a blow.

It was meant to show that people are using their experiences here to speculate about the Brits and the London police.
I apologize that I offended you and I still consider you my friend.
I never should have entered this thread, I was still pissed off at the other one that accused them of being part of the conspiracy.

[H2O Man]

199. Had you said Atlanta,

everything would have made sense.

It's a horrible situation. Innocent people in England suffered and died, because of a conflict that they do not want. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Blair, the British people have been outspoken in their opposition to the madness of George Bush. It shows the insanity of the terrorists.

I do appreciate how difficult the policemen's jobs have become. Perhaps, if nothing else, this incident shows how quickly out of control violence spirals. And that only "benefits" those who seek to destroy that which is good in society.

[beam me up scottie]

203. Thank you.

It is horrible and I hope that Americans are paying attention to how a police shooting is handled in London.
The people at work couldn't understand why everybody was so horrified over one person being shot.
It's different in the UK and I wish it was that way here.
I forget what it's like to live around gentle people.

[H2O Man]

210. Hopefully

the gentle people of the world, no matter if they are from England, the USA, Iraq, or South Africa, will rise up in peace and take the "out-of-control power" from our sick & violent siblings. Doing so will, of course, include some discussions where tempers may flare -- however momentarily. I say that to say this: the comment a few posts north of this one was not a "blow." I understood what you were saying. And it's really not a matter of "right vs wrong" in discussing this. Both you and M.B. make a heck of a lot of sense on here, and most all the other threads. It's important that people can disagree -- even strongly -- and still be good friends.

[Taxloss]

151. MB, with all due respect, you're way off beam on this one.

These police will be punished. This incident has been met with shock in the UK. The rules of engagement are being redrafted as we speak. I would humbly advise dropping the subject until we know more.

[still_one]

195. is that what free speech is all about?

[Taxloss]

215. So "free speech" means I can't make a humble suggestion?

Wow, the definition has really narrowed.

[marions ghost]

213. so perhaps we DUers who

discussed this from the earliest reports were NOT wrong in our initial speculation that something clearly did not add up. And yet we were called conspiracy theorists, accused of starting flame wars, and received a severe tongue-lashing for questioning the police behavior from several posters...

On the positive side: I commend the British police for being open about this tragedy. At least they did not put the public through a cowardly cover-up about it. Mistakes can be forgiven more easily than lies. I hope you will keep us posted about the opinion in Britain on the ground about this event, taxloss.

[Taxloss]

214. On the flipside,

those of us who said that it would be wrong to speculate and who said that we knew little were also entirely correct in our reaction. We did nothing to support or condemn any reaction, we simply acted against hysteria. And even now we do not know the facts in full - and they will be publicly released as soon as they are established. I know you're now dealing with a secrecy state, but we're not like that yet.

Edit: typo

[skooooo]

10. If they yelled "Stop police"!

I'd stop -- especially if I was in a subway the day after a bunch of bombs were set. What would you do?

[Eric J in MN]

14. We don't know if they shouted that. (nt)

nt

[skooooo]

27. You think they didn't tell him to stop??

I would be very, very surprised that the cops would be chasing people in the subway not giving warnings. On top of that they THOUGHT he was someone of suspicion. Given the other facts (his behavior and the circumstances in London), I DON'T BLAME THE COPS AT ALL, AND I THINK SOME PEOPLE ON HERE ARE BEING RIDICULOUS IN THEIR CRITICISMS.

[Benbow]

33. Hear hear

People are forgetting also that, it being underground and full of people, the police could not safely fire warning shots.

[Bluebear]

28. Did they yell that?

[beam me up scottie]

38. According to witnesses, yes, they did.

nt

[skooooo]

49. People aren't interested in what the witnesses saw happen..

...they want to project their own beliefs onto this incident - play this off like it was some kind of police conspiracy. Believe what you want to believe.

[beam me up scottie]

55. Education is painful for morons.

Ignorance is bliss.

[mdmc]

136. I would probably get shot

[tk2kewl]

140. and according to some people here, that would be your own fault

:eyes:

[mdmc]

144. a month ago, I would never accepted blame

the day after a bombing, I would take partial blame.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

175. Shoot First, ask Questions later

Thats all there is too it. Instead of taking a man into custody, you just shoot to kill, now that makes perfect sense :sarcasm:

Unless someone is killing people in front of your eyes (or brandishing a weapon with a hostage), no one should ever be shot for suspicion.

[Taxloss]

5. Quite.

This guy acted in a completely stupid manner, given the circumstances.

[baby_mouse]

18. Quite what?

What circumstances?

Tell me the rest of this story that I'm missing, I bet I'm missing something, then.

[beam me up scottie]

20. Did you read any of the reports ?

[Taxloss]

44. OK, you have a city on very high alert, possibly the most elevated

it ever has been. Police and the emergency services are dealing with two massive security breaches within the space of two weeks. Police have been drawn in from across the country to redouble an unprecedented security effort, and the day after the most recent round of EIGHT successful or attempted suicide bombings, a guy you are following breaks for a train.

Pop quiz, hot shot. What do you do?

Here's a clue. British police are not armed - special units of them are, and are deployed according to need. Even then, they are not permitted to open fire without the specific permission of a superior who is not on the scene. It's not like America.

Secondly, it seems this officer over-reacted in a horrible manner. He will very probably lose his career. So it's not like he swanned home smirking.

[Benbow]

37. Hear hear

[Modem Butterfly]

6. Well gee, the I guess it's okay they MURDERED someone in COLD BLOOD?

You don't AIM FOR THE HEAD unless you WANT someone to DIE.

Geez, I guess jumping the turnstiles is now a CAPITAL OFFENSE in London.

And why would someone wear a coat in London in July? It NEVER RAINS there, and it's CERTAINLY as warm as EVERYWHERE else in the world!

[skooooo]

15. Agree to disagree then...

I feel more sorry for the cops and the people on the trains, instead of for someone wearing a coat in July, jumping turnstiles, and flipping out when told to stop by the police.

[Eric J in MN]

21. he probably didn't know they were the police (nt)

nt

[beam me up scottie]

25. HOW do you know that ?

Why are you making this up ?

[Eric J in MN]

32. They were plain clothes following him for surveillence.

They could have said to him as he left his house, "We're the police and we'd like to talk to you."

When a bunch of guys start following someone, he usually doesn't know who they are.

[beam me up scottie]

45. They "could" have been wearing clown outfits too.

Why do you insist on posting inflammatory speculation ?
Why don't you read the reports before posting what "could" have happened ?

[Eric J in MN]

58. It's public information that they were plain clothes cops (nt)

nt

[beam me up scottie]

76. That means he didn't know they were cops ?

How ridiculous.

[Modem Butterfly]

88. If someone in street clothes pulled a gun on you...

...would you automatically assume they were cops? I wouldn't. I don't think I would panic and run, but I might.

We had a rapist here in Atlanta that had tricked his car out with police lights so that it looked like an unmarked police car (there's a very distinctive row of lights that these cars have in GA). He pulled over people in out of the way areas and if they were female, robbed and raped them. He had several victims. He's not the first one to try this tactic, either; we've had a number of home invasion robberies perpetrated by fake plainclothed police officers.

I would insist on seeing a badge.

[beam me up scottie]

106. This is nothing like the US.

And there was an obvious police presence in this area of London.
People knew they were looking for suspects, they could see the cops everywhere.

[Modem Butterfly]

116. They also know there are terrorists around

I was in Atlanta during the Olympic Park bombing. If I'd seen a guy in street clothes with a gun in those days I would not have assumed he had my best interests at heart.

The victim panicked. Some mistakes cost you your life. But that does not excuse the cops, who fucked this one up, pardon the pun, royally.

[Benbow]

118. You keep forgetting - in the UK, we do not have gun-human being parity

[beam me up scottie]

123. The terrorists in London

were using bombs in knapsacks, not guns.
And the cops identified themselves and asked him to stop.
Perhaps they were not justified in shooting this person and I agree it should not have happened.

But it also would NOT have happened three weeks ago.

That is what I'm getting at.
London police are nothing like ours and it's extremely unfair to the Brits to infer that they are.



edited for clarity

[Modem Butterfly]

131. Same thing here

I still wouldn't have assumed an armed apparent civilian wasn't a terrorist. Nor am I willing to take someone's word for it on being a cop. And if this guy really was from Brazil, depending on what part of the country, he might very well not either.

But it also would NOT have happened three weeks ago.

Yeah, that's true.

London police are nothing like ours and it's extremely unfair to the Brits to infer that they are.

Cops are humans, and capable of error, whether British, American, Tanzanian or Australian. Unlike other humans though their errors can cost lives and get excused simply because of their job descriptions. This cop fucked up, shot into a crowd at an unarmed, innocent man. He shouldn't get a pass on that just because he has a badge.

[Benbow]

134. Tell me how often US police have apologised for killing the wrong person

[Modem Butterfly]

138. Yeah, an apology makes everything better, doesn't it?

The dead guy, killed in error, can just stand up and say, "No harm, no foul, dude. Nice shot!"

[beam me up scottie]

141. That's not what he means.

In the US cops kill people all of the time and they find ways to excuse it.
They never would have admitted to the mistake as quickly as the London police did.
Hell, they would never have admitted it was a mistake.

[Modem Butterfly]

149. It doesn't fix anything

The guy is still dead. The cops could apologize until the end of time and that wouldn't fix anything.

I'm not sure what the contrast with US cops has to do with this matter. Cops are humans, everywhere you go, and this was a human error.

[beam me up scottie]

159. You are accusing the cops of intentionally murdering an innocent man.

Your op suggested that the London police couldn't be trusted.
That's baseless speculation.

Cops in America carry guns and use them all the time.
How often does something like this happen in London ?

[Modem Butterfly]

165. You know what? You're right, BMUS

I guess I'm a mouth breather too.

The London police shot an unarmed, innocent man. They panicked and shot the wrong guy. That doesn't sound trustworthy to me. And it doesn't sound more acceptable because it doesn't happen frequently, and the quick apology doesn't make it any easier for me to accept, and you know, as a person who rather resembles the guy they killed, it doesn't set my mind at ease.

[beam me up scottie]

174. I never SAID that they didn't shoot an innocent man.

I never SAID that they didn't make a mistake.
They admitted that they did and are in the process of making sure that it doesn't happen again.
And from what I've read, the responsible parties will be punished.
The Brits are outraged over this and they should be.
THAT is why brown people (and myself) should feel a hell of a lot safer on a London tube than in Texas.
At ANY time.


You went overboard with your accusation, it was unnecessary and hurtful to the British DUers, but that's just MHO.

[Modem Butterfly]

180. By that logic...

...every post you've made about the US police is hurtful to American DUers.

[beam me up scottie]

186. No, it's not.

Unless you claim that the shootings here are investigated thoroughly and the appropriate punishments meted out.
Because I sure the hell don't.

[Modem Butterfly]

34. They were plainclothes

[Benbow]

81. They were carrying automatic weapons, according to witnesses -

those are big guns - a bit hard not to notice.

[CJCRANE]

133. I thought the plain clothes

guy only had a handgun. There were three plainclothes in the train. It also seems that several uniformed officers with submachines were also following on.

[Modem Butterfly]

30. You FEEL SORRY for the COPS in this SITUATION?

Words fail me.

:puke:

[skooooo]

35. Words fail you...

The whole thing is a tragedy, admittedly. But, no, I don't blame the cops. Now that the words fail you, will you stop replying to me, or shall we talk more?

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[skooooo]

43. I disagree with you, so you call me a fascist.

Ok, whatever.

[Bluebear]

50. "I DON'T BLAME THE COPS AT ALL" you said.

Without knowing all the facts, can you manage to at least feel bad that an innocent man was killed? Or have you pictured the whole scenario in your head and you have made up your mind? Just sayin.

[skooooo]

59. I feel sorry for both...

...of course. The man, as far as we can tell, was "innocent" of what ever they thought. They THOUGHT he was involved which is why they were following him. They made a mistake. I'm just saying that in London, today, if someone is in the subway, and told something like "Stop police!" -- which apparently happened, because that's what witnesses say -- then, for CHRISSAKE STOP.

And if you don't, then YOU are playing with YOUR life. That's the sad fact. And please don't call me a fascist. Online discussion is not the best way to communicate, so maybe I came off a certain way, but I am not a fascist.

[beam me up scottie]

66. If anybody who doesn't believe that all cops are evil

and love to kill innocent people is a "fascist", then I'm one too.

[Modem Butterfly]

73. So do you agree that this guy was asking for it?

[beam me up scottie]

82. I agree that this was an unusual

occurrence and that it is being investigated.
I agree that running from the police after being told to stop is not usually a good idea.
I believe that London police do not make a habit of shooting innocent civilians with no reason.
As a matter of fact, I believe that London police do not make a habit of shooting people at all.
Am I a fascist for waiting to hear the results of the investigation before condemning the police ?

[Modem Butterfly]

103. You agree that this is an unusual circumstance and is being investigated?

You also agree that water is composed of two molecules of hydrogen and one of water?

Honestly, how can anyone disagree with those facts?

No, running from the police after being told to stop is not a good idea. Running from an armed man in street clothes after being told to stop is not a good idea, either. But it is certainly understandable.

Am I a fascist for waiting to hear the results of the investigation before condemning the police ?

Not unless you immediately absolve the police and condem the victim based on the fact that he was shot and the police have a job to do.

[beam me up scottie]

137. I didn't absolve them and neither did anyone else.

You, on the other hand tried them and found them guilty.
Look at some of the mouth breathers that responded with hate on this thread.
I know that was not your intention and that you are capable of using reason and logic.
The hate mongers are not and I don't think we should feed them.

[Modem Butterfly]

145. That is exactly what some have already done

And holding the cops accountable for their mistakes is not trying and convicting them. Hell, it's a mistake they themselves admit to!

[beam me up scottie]

161. Show me anyone who has exhonerated them.

You accused them of murdering an innocent man, not making a mistake.

You claim that they should have known he was innocent.
How ?

[skooooo]

83. Asking for it?? no!

No, he wasn't "asking" for it. Obviously, something was wrong, though. Maybe he didn't understand English? Maybe he had a half ounce of marijuana on him and was scared? I don't know why he seemed to flip out.

Think if you're a London cop, two days (or whatever) after a second bombing attempt and you're in this situation with a guy acting apparently odd, running into a train car with a coat on. You have to make a decision FAST. They made a mistake, unfortunately. But I don't think they were trying to do the wrong thing.

And it is SAD for the guy, of course it is. There's nothing taking away from that. I just dont' know that, in this circumstance, you can really "blame" the cops at least to the extent that some people would seem to like to.

[Benbow]

93. In the - very unusual and unprecedented circumstances - yes, absolutely

[skooooo]

74. As a rule, I generally don't like cops...

...which makes it feel funny for me to be on the "other" side in this argument. I just feel like after what happened in London, the cops are doing the best they can. They're human and make mistakes. Doesn't make them evil. It's sad for everyone.

[beam me up scottie]

87. It is a tragedy and blaming the police without any

evidence of their guilt is just as bad as blaming brown people without evidence of theirs.
I guess some people believe cops aren't human.

[Bluebear]

71. Well, I didn't call you a fascist :)

I am just saying you need all the facts before exonerating anyone. Remember that just yesterday we were told the man was DIRECTLY linked to the bombings.

Say the guy is from Haiti and doesn't speak English. "STOP POLICE!" being yelled could in his mind represent "Give me all your money!" or "Get out of my country!"

[skooooo]

86. Ok then..

you also need all the facts to condemn someone as well. So neither one of us have all the facts. If I was in London, and didn't speak English, I'd be damn sure I at least understood "Stop Police!"

[Benbow]

62. There was a young British soldier in Northern Ireland who became trapped

by a group of so-called Nationalist women in the Falls Road, Belfast. "He didn't fire either a warning round or for effect and was prevented from making an escape.

A few minutes later someone came out of the crowd and placed two shots into his head. He died and the crowd cheered - even the children."

He had to make a decision based on the information available to him at the time, and unfortunately he seems to have made the wrong one.

I believe that the cops who shot the runaway Brazilian made the right decision - and they lived to go on helping keeping Londoners safe.

[Modem Butterfly]

69. Keeping Londoners safe from unarmed, innocent men?

Those trigger-happy clowns are a much bigger threat to London than their victim.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Modem Butterfly]

111. How was he to know that?

Ever been mugged? Ever been held up? Ever been threatened with a gun?

Sometimes cooperation can cost your life.

[beam me up scottie]

162. And how were the cops to know he was innocent ?

Ever been bombed ?

[Modem Butterfly]

168. Yes I have

I was also at Hartsfield (the Atlanta airport) in the days after 9/11 when a white guy jumped the barriers and ran down an up escalator and they evacuated the airport for hours. You may not remember that incident, because the GA National Guard held their fire.

[beam me up scottie]

176. So they should have let him go ?

Got it.

[mike_c]

207. ever heard of the PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE...?

Oh yeah-- we don't do that anymore 'cause we've got a "war on terror" goin' on. :puke:

[Catrina]

150. But he did stop

admitedly, not necessarily because he was told to, or by his own intention, but rather by accident. Nevertheless, he did stop, and he's not alive today!

So, perhaps his instinct to run was correct! Once stopped, which it is your assertion is all the police wanted of him, whether by chance or in response to their requests, again, according to your assertion, there was no need for him to die, was there? Yet, he did!

However, I am more inclined to blame Blair and Bush as the main reason for this incident, having worked hard on creating a climate of fear to justify their illegal invasion of Iraq. Fear obliterates good judgement often. This is what they have done! And many will pay the price. This unfortunate man is just one more victim of their lies, as are the police who would have been better able to deal with it, had he in fact been a terrorist. All victims of Bush/Blair policies of fear, imo.

[H2O Man]

114. You put things in quotes

but provide no source. I do feel bad for the young men from Britain who have suffered while serving in Ireland. The fact that they shouldn't be there, imposing an evil system on the people of Ireland, doesn't change the fact that they are victims, too.

[Benbow]

125. It was in quotes because quoted from another forum

which is subscription-only. The person quoted was a journalist who was based in Northern Ireland in the early 1970s.

[H2O Man]

128. Big deal.

If you won't identify your source, you shouldn't attempt to make it look like it carries any particular accuracy or worth. It doesn't.

[chascarrillo]

135. ...except for the innocent Londoner they killed

Apologies to that guy and all.

[H2O Man]

142. Formal apologies, you know.

It means more from a man in a neck tie.

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[H2O Man]

205. I did think.

Another person -- not you -- had made what I think was a foolish statement about a formal apology. I think that is as poor of a choice of things to say as possible. It does not require one to be "paranoid" to find that type of thinking to be offensive. I believe that it is that type of thinking that will inflame passions in this situation. I can separate the things you are saying, even those that I disagree strongly with, from those that I think will inflame.

[beam me up scottie]

208. I read your post above and I appreciate

your thoughts on the UK citizens and police.

It is a terrible time for them and they are not used to the level of violence we experience here on a daily basis.

I don't believe they will accept that racial profiling and taking away civil liberties is the solution.

That's what many Americans believe, unfortunately.

[Benbow]

51. Yes, and I blame US foreign policy for giving Muslim extremists another

reason for bombing London. Our cops are having to deal with the fall-out of George Bush's military adventurism.

[skooooo]

64. Thats true...but unfortunately, it's British foreign policy..

too. Not just American. It's unfortunate that Blaire when along with Bush.

[SillyGoose]

122. Seems like Blair went along with Bush's miltary adventurism, no?

[Benbow]

126. Contrary to the vocal opposition of several million Brits

[SillyGoose]

147. Millions of Americans opposed Bush's military adventurism as well.

[Garth Beaumont]

75. Who you gonna call........

Ghost Busters?????

[Steve Dallas]

163. I wouldn't call it murder.

More like an unfortunate combination of events with a tragic ending. The guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time; it also appears that intelligence was not his strong suit.

[baby_mouse]

8. I think you're being a little bit

WRONG.

[KG]

22. so, running from cops is punished by extra-judicial execution?

nice.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chascarrillo]

143. Five shots in the head = execution in my book.

Maybe not yours, but please allow our feelings, 'kay?

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chascarrillo]

181. Please point me to where I said that or apologize.

Thank you.

[beam me up scottie]

189. I got your apology right here...

under the word execution in the dictionary

Maybe you can find it now that you managed to correct your spelling.

[Name removed]

202. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

206. Telling you to look up a word is "Trolling" ?

I suggest you take a break since you're violating DU rules.

[Bucky]

24. That pisses me off.

particularly the part about you being right. I put this death on the terrorists, too, whoever they are. London's dud second attack was an incredible stroke of luck, perhaps a sign that the terrorists left are kinda fuck ups. Or a normal statistically likely to occur snafu, an inevitable error when so many bombing attacks are going on. Whatever it is, when the local cops protecting a known target say stop, you gotta stop.

If he was wearing a baggy sweat shirt in July you gotta give the cops the benefit of the doubt. It's also commendable that the cops were so quick to exonerate the poor guy, rather than try, as I think our cops might, to continue to cast aspersions on the guy just to cover their asses.

[mike_c]

197. well give them all medals, for christ's sake....

They chased, shot, and killed an innocent man. In their zeal to prevent a crime from maybe happening, they killed someone who had done nothing wrong (unless you count running from armed men you've been following you down the street in a strange city). This is where the "war on terror" leads-- to a police state where the police murder the innocent to protect the state.

[mike_c]

191. ummm-- any of those things actually a capital offense...?

eom

[still_one]

193. let's they had him incapacitated where he couldn't do anything

and then just fired 5 shots into his head

sounds reasonable

They murdered him, it is as simple as that

[tk2kewl]

3. i believe the cops were in plain clothes too

they might have just seemed like mean guys with guns claiming to be police

[Benbow]

23. Not in the UK - remember we have different gun laws

[Modem Butterfly]

46. Yeah, and bombs on the subway are unusual too

I think it's ridiculous to blame the victim in this situation.

[Benbow]

65. If victim, then definitely self-selected victim

[tk2kewl]

57. yesterday i read that they were in plain clothes... not so?

:shug:

[bluestateguy]

7. Here's what the spin will be

1. He did not follow police instructions. His being killed is, well, unfortunate, but he should have followed directions.

AND/OR

2. Well, he was a radical Muslim, and he must have sympathized with the bombers is some indirect way. He attended a meeting of radical Muslims once over 10 years ago!!!!

Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just saying that's how the spin will sound. Don't go expecting the angry white men of the world to go crying their beer over this case. To them it's just another dead "Sand Ni**er".

[Eric J in MN]

11. We don't have all the facts.

Did they pull out their badges? Did they say they were the police?

[Taxloss]

17. They shouted the standard formula: "Armed police! Get down!"

According to witnesses.

[theHandpuppet]

41. According to the BBC News

It is believed the guy was Brazilian. Chances are he may not have been fluent in English, and that would also explain why he was wearing heavy clothing which may have seemed odd for the British summer.

Note to brown people, especially non-native English speakers: stay out of Britain. Any moves or apparel deemed "suspicious" may result in your execution.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theHandpuppet]

68. Yes, it does happen here every day

That's why we can recognize racism and injustice when we see it. Perhaps we were hoping that the Brits were just a wee bit better than us.

You can call what I said assholish if you want, but the truth hurts. The fact that we witness such injustice on a regular basis is not a defense.

[beam me up scottie]

148. Truth? You stated that people will be executed in London for being brown.

Note to brown people, especially non-native English speakers: stay out of Britain. Any moves or apparel deemed "suspicious" may result in your execution."

The truth ?
No, it's called paranoid hysteria and hate mongers love to spread it around.

[theHandpuppet]

172. I said "may", not will

Don't play games of semantics with me, for you shall surely lose.

[Name removed]

178. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theHandpuppet]

194. And still the truth

Sorry if the truth offends.

[beam me up scottie]

201. No, it's a paranoid speculation

but I'm sure in your mind it's true.
PCT's shouldn't be allowed in this forum.

[theHandpuppet]

211. Here's some more "paranoia" for you

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,,1527344,00.html

[Taxloss]

56. There's "suspicious" and there's "stupid".

You're in a foreign, but civilised, country. In the middle of the day, in a built-up area, surrounded by people, armed people in plain clothes start chasing you and shouting. You don;t understand them. (It is also the day after a second wave of attempted suicide attacks - maybe that passed him by.)

What do you do?

a. Stop.

b. Run into a train station, jump the barriers, and dart onto a train.

[Modem Butterfly]

60. I don't know about staying out of Britain, but staying off the tube...

...right now is probably wise.

[Benbow]

101. Yes, because of the suicide bombers who escaped - remember those four

still at large. I can tell you that thousands of Londoners would LOVE to stay off the tube but they have no other way of getting to/from work - earning their living - and those four would-be suicide bombers are still free, to do it again and perhaps pull it off.

[Modem Butterfly]

110. By all means then, killing unarmed innocent men is the answer

Come on. The police panicked and fucked this one up. The guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time and also panicked. But that doesn't make him guilty and it doesn't absolve the police in this instance.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

12. THis happpened in London

not Texas.
I think you're projecting.

[Modem Butterfly]

156. I was robbed at gunpoint in London once

I thought it was pretty ironic. All he got was some WAM (walking around money) and a maxed out VISA from me, but he got my companion's passport.

[beam me up scottie]

169. Uh, okay. So then that makes it okay to accuse the Brits of

murder and conspiracy, which is what that poster just did.

[Modem Butterfly]

173. I can't be responsible for posts that aren't my own

Sheesh.

[Benbow]

67. He was a Brazilian, so probably Roman Catholic

And, yes, if he wanted to maximise his chances of living - given the recent spate of bombings (the worst peacetime attack in 50 years) - he should have obeyed the command to do nothing more complicated than Stop.

[theHandpuppet]

77. That's funny...

On the LBN forum you assumed that since the guy was a Brazilian he must be a cocaine dealer.

[Benbow]

102. The two things are not mutually exclusive

[theHandpuppet]

171. And you still haven't stated the basis for your assumption...

... that because the guy was Brazilian he was probably a cocaine dealer.

[Eric J in MN]

9. Wasn't there a case like this in NY in which plain clothes

police officers tried to arrest an immigrant and he thought it was a holdup and pulled out his wallet and the cops thought it was a gun and shot him many times?

About 7 years ago.

[beam me up scottie]

16. This was nothing like that

and London is nothing like NY or LA.
Shootings are not a daily occurance.

[Eric J in MN]

39. plain clothes police, confusion, innocent man killed by the cops

seems smilar to me

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catrina]

92. You forgot to add

'innocent man of color'.

In NYC, while Giuliani was Mayor, several incidents of innocent people of color being abused or shot at by police occurred. Giuliani always stood by the police in these cases. There have been none that I know of since he is no longer mayor. I hope it continues that way.

Giuliani it seems, is now in the 'security' business. He was in London when the 7/7 bombings occurred. With his defense of a 'shoot first ask questions later, especially if the suspect is dark skinned' type street justice, I hope the London police have not been receiving any advice from his security company.

It is commendable that the London police have cleared the man's name as quickly as possible, ending any possible harrassment of his family or the further pain they might suffer were his name to have been associated with the bombings there.

To clear the name of Amado Diablo, in NY, by contrast, it took a major effort on his behalf, before it became clear that he was completely innocent of any crime.

[beam me up scottie]

183. You've got to be kidding me. You link this to Giuliani and the PCT?

Let me guess where you've been getting your information...

[Paradise]

98. 1998 - amadu dialo - shot 41 times n/t

[Benbow]

105. If 5 shots is an "over-reaction", what does that make 41 shots?

Pot meet kettle; kettle, this is pot.

[SillyGoose]

108. Yes... Amadou Diallo was shot and killed by NYPD in 1999

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo_(shooting_victim)

[_testify_]

188. Okay so let me get this straight...

It's not the cops fault that an unarmed brown man was shot to death in London.

You prove that, of course, by referencing how an unarmed brown man was shot to death in NYC in probably the WORST case of police brutality in New York City history.

Oh yeah, I can see that. Amadou Diallo was shot to death because NY cops mistakenly thought he was a serial rapist. That's bad.

Jean Charles de Menezes was shot to death because London cops mistakenly thought he was a terrorist. That's okay.

Wait...maybe you guys should try to explain that one again.

[riverwalker]

36. death penalty for being stupid now?

If so, most of the country is in big trouble. If people are condoning death penalty and instant justice for dressing and acting weird then we will all be dead.
Lord help us.

[candy]

47. Shit happens !

[Bluebear]

53. Oh that post is a big surprise.

[LibertyorDeath]

54. "accidentally" maybe, maybe not.

I wouldn't take their word for it.

[Gloria]

100. I'm still wondering why they didn't aim for the legs to take him down...if

he were a terrorist suspect, they could maybe get information from him, no? Wouldn't they want to do that?

(I understand not shooting at the body for fear of a bomb strapped on, but the lower legs might be less likely to have a bomb attached if you were trying to move quickly. And probably harder to hide on a leg if it was somewhat bulky.)

[Modem Butterfly]

120. I'm surprised they hit his head five times

The head is a small target, and when the target is in motion, it is very easy to miss. It suggests to me that the shooter either has had extensive sniper training, or that the victim was very close or not running. Or some combination of all three.

[Benbow]

129. Now I know that you have not read any of the reports

[Bluebear]

187. About his "running" from the police....

An interesting post from another board....

It's also possible he wasn't aware he was being chased and was simply running to catch the tube. They said on the news that he was on his way to work. The police have told so many lies about the whole thing I simply can't believe their side of the story any more.

Shooting the man was not the mistake - lying about the circumstances was.

[beam me up scottie]

192. How do you know the police told lies ?

Show me the evidence that proves they lied.

[Bluebear]

204. Well I can't get in the head of whoever posted that

As I said, it is a post from another board. But it is interesting that so many say he was "running" from the police, and my point is that many people run for the tube.

[beam me up scottie]

209. There's a lot of evidence to sort through

and so many witnesses gave conflicting accounts.

I do believe that Londoners will demand the truth and I wish our citizens would do the same when someone is shot here.

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WinkyDink]

107. Terrorism didn't just start, you know

There WERE the 1970's.

[mdmc]

115. knock, knock

who's there?

Amado.

Amado who?

The next time the police say freeze, AM-A-DO what they say.


(A NYC cop told me this "joke" after Amado Diallo got shot up).

[Anarcho-Socialist]

146. We're thin on the facts at the moment

The only two things that I can discern from this is:

1. The police f****d up royally by killing someone innocent that they thought was related to terrorist attacks.
2. The Brazilian man decided to ignore shouts of "Stop! Armed Police" and ran towards the London Underground station, leapt over turnstyles and headed towards a populated train - in what can be described as a pretty dumb decision.

[Taxloss]

154. Quite. Exactly.

But hear it told here ...

[chascarrillo]

153. Statistics on violence involving firearms in the UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3195908.stm

Read, then all of you saying that "hey, the guy had no reason to flee from plainclothes policemen 'cause no-one has guns in London", feel free to apologize.

[moondust]

155. London police

do not go around shooting people. Consider that a constant.

[chascarrillo]

179. Absolutely wrong

Man shot by police was unarmed: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/460116.stm

Shot man's family demand apology: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1444512.stm

Man shot by police hunting David Martin: http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/14/newsid_2530000/2530649.stm

Three different incidents. The last is especially lovely:

A man has been critically injured in a police ambush in a west London street in what may be a case of mistaken identity.

Witnesses said marksmen surrounded a car in a traffic jam in Pembroke Road in Earls Court and opened fire.

The driver was shot several times in the head and body.

[moondust]

184. So how does that compare

to police shootings in the U.S. and other "western democracies"? I'd guess probably near the bottom, not close to being in the same league with the wild wild U.S. There are really only two leagues in these gun-related issues: the U.S. and everybody else.

You've got one in 1999, one in 2001, and one in 2003. Three in 5 years (or more)? Is that it? And how many of those victims deserved a nomination for the Darwin awards?

The police had reason to suspect the guy in the first place and if I'm not mistaken bystanders confirmed their suspicions when they saw the guy wearing a conscpiciously heavy coat.

[spanone]

157. Wear a coat-----eat some lead.

[Modem Butterfly]

177. Mods, this thread is useless, please lock it or delete it

Thanks!

[KG]

182. it's not useless.

i've learned alot of rather interesting things on this thread today! :eyes:

[Bluebear]

185. You said a mouthful.

:eyes:

[still_one]

200. I second that

[still_one]

198. why, it is an important thread you started

it represents what happens when people value security of liberty

you have neither security or liberty

[leesa]

212. Well, we went after the wrong fucking COUNTRY...TWICE!!

[Moderator]

216. Locking....

This thread has run its course.


DU Moderator