German artist rendition of latest torture photos (sorry if dupe)

[Union Thug]

Ok, so pictures of soldiers torturing an EIGHT YEAR OLD GIRL are among the yet to be released photos.

If these are accurate, then I have lost ALL faith in our system. I'll tell you something, if I received orders to abuse an 8 year old girl, you can probably guess where my aggression would be directed - and it wouldn't be at the child. I'm sick. All involved need to be incarcerated for the rest of their lives.

I'm generally pretty easy on the grunts, but not if this is true...How could ANYONE think abusing a child is OK?????? Fuck these people, both high-level maniancs in the administration and the assholes that carried out the orders.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/23/15839/3683

[tsuki]

1. Dittoheads would gladly watch the torture of an 8 year old girl, if

they could wave a flag and recite the Ten Commandments. What else can you say about a bunch of fanatics who want to radiate the world so the Sky Taxi will come for them?

[RPM]

20. holy fuck

that is just awful.

how did the germans get them and we havent? I know ** has it locked up, but how did they get copies in germany?

[tsuki]

37. As a friend of mine always say: The truth will out; God never sleeps.

[RPM]

40. i subscribe to that - although in slightly different form

- An illusion requires energy to maintain
- the bigger the illusion, the more energy required
- because of entropy, the efforts spent to maintain the illusion will eventually fall apart
- when they do, the truth is revealed.

i think we are in the middle of step 3 right now. :D

[Freedomfried]

54. deleted

[RPM]

59. huh?

PM me what you had to say if you dont want to post it here - would love to hear what you have to say

[ConfuZed]

38. Holy shit is that poor little girl naked and...

who are the animal soldiers doing this?

[mom cat]

44. Their "Sky Taxi" goes only straight to hell!.. a hell of their own making!

[librechik]

73. somebody ELSE's little girl--a brown one with a different religion

yeah, I think they might enjoy it in fact. They have no empathy, because they are too fierce in their god-sanctioned hatred of the Other.

[Lord_StarFyre]

2. If these renditions are even remotely accurate

...Then Bush's crimes against humanity ARE at the level of EVIL.

This man is proving to be a worse tyrant than those he and his minions claim to want to vanquish.

His Impeachment, Conviction, and Imprisonment should be the sole focus of all who love this country, and all it is supposed to stand for.

2006 is our last true opportunity to see to it that this man, and those who support him are removed from power, and served the justice they so richly deserve.

[habitual]

3. makes sense why they are desperate not to release them

can you imagine what is going to happen to them if a picture like the ones rendered gets out.... BUSH will not be able to lie enough to quiet the storm.

if the rove situation has cut of his left ball, this would complete the castration.

i can honestly say after seeing the artists pics that there is NO WAY those photos will ever be released while bush is in office.

[tk2kewl]

4. other than kos, who has these?

what is the name of the german mag? how did they get a hold of the pics?

[Union Thug]

5. here's something

I don't know where these are coming from...here's a link I found in the KOS piece... http://www.swr.de/report/archiv/sendungen/040705/07/frames.html

[tk2kewl]

6. yeah, i read that unicef report somewhere yesterday

unreal.

[acmejack]

7. the link has some terrible reading.

If this stuff is true & at this point I fear it is, we'll all be damned by the world for a long time.

[Zorbuddha]

10. Oh God! Here's a snippet

The fall from grace in Iraq -
Reports on maltreated children in the torture prison




Original soundtrack, Suhaib Badr-Addin Al-Baz, TV reporter:

"I saw a camp for children there. Boys, under the age of puberty. There were certainly hundreds of children in this camp. Some have been released, others are certainly still there."

From his single cell in the adults' section, Suhaib heard a perhaps 12-year-old girl crying. Suhaib learned that her brother was being held on the second floor of the prison. Suhaib says he saw her there himself once or twice.

In the night, they had been in her cell. The girl had shouted to the other prisoners and called out her brother's name.

An artist has drawn the scene for the British TV station ITN.

Original soundtrack, Suhaib Badr-Addin Al-Baz, TV reporter:

"She was beaten. I heard her call out: They have undressed me. They have poured water over me."

Daily, says Suhaib, one had heard her cries and her whimpering. Some of the prisoners had therefore wept. Suhaib also reports about a sick 15-year-old boy. They had hounded him up and down the corridor with heavy water canisters. So long until he had collapsed with exhaustion, says Suhaib. Then they had brought his father, captive. With a hood over his head. The boy had collapsed again with shock.

In the so-called "Battle against terror", the Americans storm Iraqi dwellings. According to Suhaib, in the course of this they sometimes arrest whole families who appear suspicious to them. Individual statements by witnesses, difficult to check.

We research for further evidence for the imprisonment of children. And indeed. UNICEF in Geneva, the United Nations' relief agency for children. We find an explosive report. Just a few days old.
In this we read:

Quote:

"Children who had been arrested in Basra and Kerbala (…) were handed over as a matter of routine to an internment facility in Um Qasr".

The internment camp Um Qasr. Pictures from 2003, Today it is too dangerous for reporters to travel to Um Qasr. The camp, a prison camp for terrorists and criminals. Here of all places, the Americans are thus said to have kept children interned like prisoners of war.
UNICEF writes:

Quote:

"The classification of these children as 'Internees' is worrying as it means an indefinite period of custody, without contact with their families, expectation of proceedings or a trial."

http://www.swr.de/report/archiv/sendungen/040705/07/frames.html

[rumpel]

131. In the UK it was reported 8/04 Iraq's Child Prisoners

Of course pre-conventions the media does not report this here, I guess, or did they?

http://www.sundayherald.com/43796

A Sunday Herald investigation has discovered that coalition forces are holding more than 100 children in jails such as Abu Ghraib. Witnesses claim that the detainees – some as young as 10 – are also being subjected to rape and torture
By Neil Mackay


It was early last October that Kasim Mehaddi Hilas says he witnessed the rape of a boy prisoner aged about 15 in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. “The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets,” he said in a statement given to investigators probing prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib. “Then, when I heard the screaming I climbed the door … and I saw who was wearing a military uniform.” Hilas, who was himself threatened with being sexually assaulted in Abu Graib, then describes in horrific detail how the soldier raped “the little kid”.
In another witness statement, passed to the Sunday Herald, former prisoner Thaar Salman Dawod said: “ two boys naked and they were cuffed together face to face and was beating them and a group of guards were watching and taking pictures and there was three female soldiers laughing at the prisoners. The prisoners, two of them, were young.”

It’s not certain exactly how many children are being held by coalition forces in Iraq, but a Sunday Herald investigation suggests there are up to 107. Their names are not known, nor is where they are being kept, how long they will be held or what has happened to them during their detention.

Proof of the widespread arrest and detention of children in Iraq by US and UK forces is contained in an internal Unicef report written in June. The report has – surprisingly – not been made public. A key section on child protection, headed “Children in Conflict with the Law or with Coalition Forces”, reads: “In July and August 2003, several meetings were conducted with CPA (Coalition Provisional Authority) … and Ministry of Justice to address issues related to juvenile justice and the situation of children detained by the coalition forces … Unicef is working through a variety of channels to try and learn more about conditions for children who are imprisoned or detained, and to ensure that their rights are respected.”

[IndyOp]

12. From the German article (link in post above):

On edit: Dupe

[IndyOp]

8. Addison on the DKOS thread says they are renderings of described scene

Near as I can tell these are merely renderings of the described scene, not the actual photos. I've recommended the diary anyway for reasons explained below. Mainly, since Bush sinisterly failed to release the actual photos he deserves whatever horrible press he gets when less-real depictions show up.

by Addison on Fri Jul 22nd, 2005 at 23:15:48 PDT

============

This makes sense to me. If the German's had the photos then we would have the photos - the internet is (at the moment) still more powerful than the US propaganda troops.

[jillan]

9. As a mother of 2 daughters, this really makes me sick

I'm sure there is so much we don't know about.
Assholes!

[SillyGoose]

11. This has made me ill...I hope this is not true.

If it is true, everyone from the soldiers who did this to the bastards in the White House who condone it need to be hauled off in handcuffs for these despicable acts.

:cry:

[Clark2008]

60. It is true.

I knew about it nearly two years ago and reported it on the Clark blog.

My ex-husband's family is in Jordan and they had heard the tales of the children who were being tortured. CHILDREN.

Then, about three weeks after I posted this unbelievable story, Sy Hersh spoke about it somewhere, so I was vindicated in my reports.

There has been rape and evils so evil I can't even begin to tell you.

I believe it happened.

I can't believe it will go unpunished.

[SillyGoose]

72. As a democrat I've been accused of many things.

I've been labeled a baby-killer, a traitor, of wanting to give terrorists therapy, of being a terrorist sympathizer, of not being patriotic, of engaging in petty partisan politics, of not having the proper morals and on and on and on ad nauseum. I'm sick of the bullshit. I want an answer from the REPUBLICAN leadership about this latest outrage. I want to know what morally superior REPUBLICAN authorized this despicable behavior. I hope they rot in hell for this.

[Jo March]

87. I cannot process this

My two children, who are 6 and 3, are playing in the toy room which is about 6 feet from me. I hear them chattering about toys and I CAN'T FUCKING PROCESS SOMEONE RAPING AND TORTURING THEM.

Oh, Christ, forgive me for the thoughts in my head.

I can't even think straight about this anymore.

God will avenge. They may escape in this life, but I truly believe in my heart that they will pay in the next life.

[Melodybe]

105. They've ruined more than their next life, they'll need hundreds of lives

to fix their karma on this shit.

I have a 3 1/2 year old and a 2 year old, someone hurting them like that would make me homicidal.

I am comforted in the fact that they will suffer in their after lives, Tibetan book of the Dead.

[Jo March]

123. Yes, they will suffer because they will never repent

They think that it's okay because these aren't white children or American children.

This is sickening. If it happened to my children, I would forget all about my pacifism.

This is how we create the monsters who fly into buildings - not because they "hate our freedoms."

[YOY]

Sorry ...I'm skeptic

I do believe torture is going on there. Nothing to be accepted or laughed at.

I don't believe grown men are kicking the crap out out of 10-year old girls.

Simply put BULLSHIT. If you need lies and shock tatics to believe this then your just as bad as the RWers.

[Lord_StarFyre]

14. I wonder

...how many well meaning folks in Germany said exactly the same thing a few years back....

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[YOY]

16. Actually I hate Rush and you didn't read my damn post.

You just read the damn title.

I do not accept, condone, or think that torture is just groovy.

I believe there is torture going on there. But 4 grown men kicking the crap out of little girls??? Give me a break. I would like pictures. NOT ARTISTS' interpreteations.

next time read the flipping post...

AND I NEVER BELIEVE ANYTHING ANYONE TELLS ME UNTIL I SEE IT WITH MY OWN EYES. Like the pictures last time. I believe those!

Yes, there is bad stuff going down. Yes, it should stop.

However: No, I will not jump at every allegation that makes the scenario worse than before.

THERE IS NOTHING I WOULD LIKE MORE THAN TO GET A VIDEO CAMERA OR A CAMERA IN THERE.

[Bluerthanblue]

24. honey, i hate to tell you this,

but it happens- it even happens by what WERE decent good old american boys-

i know this, because i've heard it from the lips of Vietnam Vets- who cannot forget what they witnessed....

and i say "honey" not as a put down, or a flippant term, but because i would say to my 21 yr old (my oldest child) the same thing- because i hear in your anger, and inability to believe this without proof, a beautiful, but so fragile innocence-

one that i never remember having- and have seen be stripped from everyone i know, at some point in their lives- humans are the cruelest beasts ever created- but also potentially the kindest as well-

Denial is a natural defense mechanism- but can kill- and allow killing and abuse to continue- This is a fucked up government- TOTALLY fucked up- and war is a kind of insanity-

[Karenina]

36. This is exactly why

the photographic evidence MUST BE RELEASED. Amis can stay in denial as long as they wish to tacitly support the atrocities, which is the reason *co is in contempt of court. The TRUTH is the photographic evidence now being withheld is ONLY THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG.

[Bluerthanblue]

46. i agree Karenina, but

even if the photo's NEVER come out- i don't have any 'difficulty' believing that this is truth.

And i wish with all my heart, that i believed the actual photo's would change the hearts of my fellow countrymen and women- But i .... quite honestly don't.

People are CHOOSING not to believe how bad the US is behaving in this world, our greed, our arrogance, and our thinking we are 'above the law'- Because to admit how rotten this government has become, would mean needing to DO something-

All the letters i've written, the calls i've made, the marches i've attended, the protest meetings i've gone to have still brought us here... where we sit, with the blood of litterally thousands upon thousands on our hands- and a world that is so saturated with hatred, suspision and fear, that i don't (honestly) see any way out-

i wish, i'd been holding hands with those i loved on a flight on sept. llth-

that may seem like a TERRIBLE thing to say- it is surely a selfish one, but the frustration of not being able to wake up the sleeping, to rouse the GOOD people i know are a part of this country, but chose to do nothing- and thus, do wrong- by enabling wrong is getting to be more than i can take......

and not the world i wanted to see my beloved children inherit, nor the children of ANY part of this big blue planet circling mindlessly through space.

[il_lilac]

65. I wish i'd been holding hands with those i loved on a flight 9/11

i too have felt that. We were so comforted in our ignorance. Now the truth tells us we're all guilty as a nation. I too have cried, marched, called, written trying to wake up a sleeping nation. Alas, we're living a nightmare and I long to awaken.

[TankLV]

76. Yes! That is the whole point.

"They" say that "Oh, we never do that and we can't release the photos because of nat. security" and when the photos are released, "Oh, that's just a few rove bad apples - it's an isolated incident - our soldiers the good guys" and other such crap.

This is INSTITUTIONALIZED policy from THE HIGHEST LEVELS since this bunch of WAR CRIMINALS took over our government.

This GOES ON EVERY DAY - and WHAT WE KNOW IS ONLY HALF AS BAD AS WHAT REALLY IS GOING ON 24/7/365 with this bunch in charge.

[yurbud]

28. I read your post, and that drawing is consistent with reports

collected by those various agencies and reporters like Seymour Hersh of the New Yorker.

the point of showing the drawing is underlining that the Bush people AREN'T letting us see the last of the real pics.

Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[YOY]

29. and I really WANT TO

but will not accept an artist's interpretation in lieu of this.

[YOY]

75. and you called me a dittohead

I do not appreciate that.

I hate bushco as much as anyone. I just believe that solid ammunition is needed and not an "artist's interpretation"

"The Death of Marat" is an artist's interpretation of a nasty little man's death painted up like christ. The artist was never there and used is personal politics to influence the issue.

Photos are hard pressed to be put under similar scrutiny

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Frederik]

117. Your reaction is typical

This is why it is so important that the photos are released. Too many people refuse to believe things are as bad as they are, until they are shown undeniable photographic proof. Seymour Hersh has seen these pictures, mkay? He's not making things up. But the government is refusing to release them, defying a court order, because they know most people won't believe it, until they see it.

[mike_c]

17. then why is the administration so desparate to keep Americans...

...from seeing those photos? The truth WILL eventually come out. I predict that you'll eat those words.

[YOY]

18. I hope I do not...

Not for the sake of being right, but for the sake of imagining grown men on government parole beating children.

Blind faith to everything that supports one's believe system is for RWers.

[Lord_StarFyre]

19. ...But another core of their beliefs is...

....Ardently denying that Government Employees could actually do such things, especially when they are under the eyes of Emperor Honorifousness and Dignitude...

[YOY]

22. I don't "ardently deny" the torturing of adults

It is happening and it is intolerable.

I just don't want to "ardently beleive" based on one Artists interpretation.

Photo's (almost) never lie.

[Lord_StarFyre]

23. That is all well and good YOY

But if you Believe it's happening, and you Think it's intolerable, then why do you find it such a stretch to believe an artist's rendering based upon what has been described?

Is what is being rendered such a stretch? If Torture IS happening, why do you think what is rendered is beyond belief?

[Bluerthanblue]

25. another thing Lord,

had this discussion shortly after 9/11, when all sorts of 'fears' were circulating...... usually, what we 'fear' others 'doing to us' is something that begins in our own minds....
Think about that for awhile. When i thought of all the ways 'they' could hurt america.... i was so incredibly ashamed that my own mind could come up with the kinds of things it did- because, the evil deeds begin in the mind- and are carried out by people.

No one would have 'wanted' to believe the horrendus abuses that have gone on in this world- and many of them never had 'photo' proof, but there were witnesses, there ARE witnesses.

There is nothing i don't believe a human capable of.

nothing at all.

[Tommymac]

26. The uniform is just clothing...

grown men beat and abuse children everyday, every hour, every minute.

And just because they are in a uniform, doesn't mean they are all good ... or bad ...men.

I don't want to believe it either, but unfortunately this regime's track record has given me little reason to believe it couldn't happen.

[YOY]

74. Now that I 100% Agree with

But I still want (and the public needs) solid photo evidence before I can state guilt of the parties invoved.

There is nasty stuff going down at Gitmo but we need ammunition and not blanks before commiting ourselves 100% to attrocites.

Instead we should go 100% at finding evidence. If the govt. has nothing to hide then they should indeed let someone unbiased in to photograph.

I also don't appreceate some DUer calling me a dittohead. I am no lurking freeper. I am also no tagalong on important issues.

[jaysunb]

31. There were a lot of things I Wouldn't

have believe 40 years ago when I went to Viet Nam, but some things are burned into my memory. Some people I knew and served with, turned out to be, pretty vile individuals.Their evil actions were not only tolerated but encouraged.
Not much has changed.....

[Al-CIAda]

32. Simply put, read Seymour Hersh's articles on the subject.

Then again, deaf dumb and blind is more comfortable -and easier.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

33. Seymour Hersh: "The worst of the soundtrack is the boys shrieking"

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article6492.htm

Hersh is one of the few outside of government to have seen the videos of little boys being raped by Iraqi prison guards at Abu Ghraib in the children's section (yes, there is a children's section of the prison) while US soldiers looked on and ran their video cameras. Why else would Rumsfeld have called this evidence "radioactive"?

[greblc]

35. Ditto.... these drawings are bullshit. Show me a photo.

[TankLV]

78. Then we DEMAND you come back here and APOLOGIZE to each and every one of

us here when THE PHOTOS PROVE OUR POINT - AGAIN.

But I'm sure you'll be busy or some other bullshit then, just like your bullshit NOW.

Chew on this: If these allegations are NOT proven, IT WILL BE THE FIRST & ONLY ONE of hundreds of other allegations that were initially poo-pooed BUT PROVEN TRUE!

[greblc]

91. Demand this...

Why is it that people assume the worst of our military? I'm suppose to believe every sketch that I see posted on the internet? YOY posted that they have a hard time believing that our troops are kicking the crap out of 10 yr old girls. I have to agree with that. I would imagine there are thousands of U.S. Troops who would trade places with any one of us and play armchair critic of the war. So until you've been there done that in Iraq, save the criticism until there is proof.

Show me some credible proof. Not an Artists rendition.

TankLV you just go on being gullible and believe the "Bullshit" cartoons.
As for an apology... kiss my @$$. I have an opinion that's why I'm here.

Who WANTS to believe children are being tortured? I don't but I'll believe it when I see it.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

94. Have US soldiers never raped underaged girls?

I seem to recall a number of incidents involving the military in Okinawa, the Phillipines, Korea, etc. US soldiers are representative of the general population. Most are great individuals but some are downright dirty scumbags. I hope you can admit to that. Just because accusations are leveled against the alleged actions of some does not mean that "our military" as you put it are all being denigrated. I hope you're not mimicking the type of "thin blue line" mentality that permeates many police departments, whereby the individuals feel they must close ranks against any and all possible criticism. Soldiers are human beings. Get together 140,000 human beings in one place and some of them will show what sadists they are, if given the opportunity.

[greblc]

96. Yes they have.

I don't have any doubts that these alegations are possible. Drawings and even SOME personal accounts are not proof.

Soldiers are not trained to rape. They are trained that criminal actions in war are punishable.

Given you live in a community of 140,000 you are likely to have deviants as neighbors. Maybe even some down right dirty scumbags. But I wont assume.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

98. My worry is that nothing is being done to rein in the scumbags

I will never blame the average soldier for this. If sadists are being allowed free rein to do anything they want, I blame the administration for not adopting a strict enough policy and maybe for encouraging overly aggressive treatment of prisoners. I too would prefer to see the physical evidence. That's what this outrage is all about. But to assume that it isn't happening just because we haven't seen the physical evidence is also a mistake, in my opinion. Human beings can do terrible things, especially when they don't think they will be punished. Besides, when Donald Rumsfeld himself called this evidence hard to believe because it was so terrible, that tends to make me think that the very worst has occurred.

[greblc]

104. I agree with some of what your saying...

but understand we've yet to see hard proof on this topic. I know bad things happen during war on both sides. Has anyone thought Iraqis may embellish this type of story? Our government lies to us. The Iraqi insurgents must certainly understand the power of a good lie.
Why should I believe anything in our current state of affairs with out solid proof or a credible source.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

102. Why are you covering for such deviant behavior? We've already been...

...told that the next round of pictures will be extremely graphic, and we've been told that the NeoCons are blocking the pictures from being published.

But you just go ahead and keep defending the people that have committed these acts, and trashing respected DU posters. That's telling us a lot more about you than it's telling us about anything else.

[greblc]

107. I'm saying show me the photos!

I don't feel the initial post was very objective or fair. Sketches of U.S. servicemen torturing children? If anyones been trashed in this post it's our servicemen. To draw an analogy Is it fair to say all Catholics are pedophiles?
Just be careful not to paint this with too broad a brush. Vietnam Vets were unfairly labeled baby killers. This is the last thing we need to do to our Iraqi Vets.

Help me out and tell me specifically who has tortured these children? If I knew I could stop defending them.

If disagreeing is paramount to "trashing" I'm at the wrong site.

[Warren DeMontague]

108. So why is it like pulling teeth to get the government to release them?

What do YOU think they contain?

Let's rehash the timeline, here. The ACLU filed FOIA requests for the information. Government didn't want to relase the photos and the videos.. Judge says that's not good enough. Gov't says, "but it would violate the geneva convention (someone has a sense of humor, apparently) to show the images" Judge says, sorry, you can block out the faces and you have to do it by June 30th. June 30th rolls around and they've suddenly say they need more time to get all the faces blocked out (it would seem the entire military only has one guy who knows photoshop, and he's 90 years old) so they ask if they can have until July 22. So July 22 comes, and what do they do? They file a secret letter claiming this new 7(F) exemption from the FOIA..

Now, sir, please tell me what you think is in those photos that would warrant such a high level of obfuscation, delay and round-about bullshit from our government "of the people"?

Yeah, I'm with you. Show us the images so we can know for sure what was done in our name. But unfortunately it isn't up to the good people of DU. It is the Government and the Military that is refusing to let them be made public.

[greblc]

110. I'm sure any photos being with held are not flatering.

But we don't have them so I find it difficult to judge.

[Warren DeMontague]

112. I would say, if the government wants to prove a journalist like Sy Hersh

is a bald-faced liar, there's only one thing they can do- release the images.

But since they are withholding them; against the order of a Federal Judge and in apparent violation of the FOIA, I would say the onus of disproving the worst rumors about what they may contain is on THEM.

[Frederik]

118. Look, this stuff is happening

Seymour Hersh isn't making this stuff up, ok? The government is refusing to release the photos, defying a court order, because they know people like you will refuse to believe it until shown undeniable photographic evidence.

[TankLV]

128. So don't believe me - believe our Senators and Congressmen

who have said so!

And you can bite me.

My the trolls are out in force tonite, aren't they.

We must be getting too close to the truth - and you can't refute a single thing I've said.

You are so transparent.

[bpilgrim]

50. wake up

this has been reported on for over a year here now and apparently we got the pictures to prove it.

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[Freedomfried]

55. Than you have never been in the US military

The cruelest animal on the face of the planet is a 19 year old American male.

I've been there, done that and seen em.

[LynnTheDem]

58. Then you're in for one hell of a shock when the pics and videos

are released. And you won't be a skeptic any more.

[Warren DeMontague]

109. That's all right. They will do everything in their considerable power

to make sure those things never see the light of day.

[YOY]

125. Not in for a shock

Just willing to 100% accept it.

Just because I don't adamantly believe everything without solid evidence doesn't mean I am adamantly supporting the opposite.

as I have said time and time again. There is nasty stuff going down there. I want solid proof and not a drawing and some stories by Seymour Hersh (sp?) but solid interviews and pictures. I believe the govt. owes it to us to show the truth. Does that make me stupid? IMHO, Not really. I am just willing accept "innocent until proven guilty"

Do not paint it as though I am living some lily white lie. Skepticism is healthy. I'm just taking a heavy dose hear for the sake of rationality.

[IndyOp]

13. 107 children

"Between January and May of this year, we registered a total of 107 children. Namely during 19 visits to 6 different places of detention. It must be stressed here, these are places of detention that are really controlled by the Coalition troops."

In the internment camp Um Qasr, and also in Abu Ghraib, the Red Cross registered prisons in their minority.

<snip>

According to UNICEF, no independent observers at all have been in the children's clink any more since December. The US Army did, it is true, open the scandal prison Abu Ghraib for a tour by journalists. But the reporters were presented with a model prison. The press were not shown captive children.

We stress: Four sources confirm independently of one another that the occupation troops are holding children as prisoners. Two witnesses even report of maltreatment. The human rights organisation Amnesty International is outraged about the reports on Iraqi children prisoners. Barbara Lochbihler of Amnesty International Germany demands consequences.

[undergroundpanther]

21. I'm afraid of Americans

I'm afraid of the world

I'm afraid I can't help it..

End this Shit.. End it now.End the Bush Game.End this plan,End this sickness.

DESTROY the sociopaths abusers,con men and bullies walking amongst us they must be dealt with in a way so they can harm no more.
Rehab does not work, our compassion is used against us,

We must become like evil to do the right thing now.Because being good to evil people is not good enough to stop them anymore.

No more bully,no more abuse problem.

[davekriss]

30. NO! NO! NO!

"We must become like evil to do the right thing now. Because being good to evil people is not good enough to stop them anymore."
-- undergroundpanther

Absolutely no! Notice my avatar. And note that the name on a ring on my left hand says "Jesus" (as much a loving rebel as ever walked the earth). I REFUSE to become my enemy and I reject your counsel.

"Cease to do evil; try to do good" -- so goes the Buddhist adage. If more of us met the first imperative there would be less need to act on the second. But that does not mean, if I check the evil within myself, I can embrace a passive acquiescence to the evil done all around me (boundaries between "self" and "other" are somewhat arbitrary).

Again, note my avatar. Civil disobedience and the path of non-violence is much more than "saying no", it is "doing no". But a "doing" that is grounded in what is right and just, not by taking on the wrong and unjust tools of our advesary. The path to victory is not found in becoming "like evil", but by holding the evil up for all to see through contradistinction with our own right actions.

[Mnemosyne]

42. I'm afraid I can..., great song!

And it is so true now in this bushit world. :hi:

I have no clue how bad these videos and photos will be, but I do know right from wrong. I don't care who told these soldiers it was alright to commit any horrors in our name, they still have free will. Any torture is wrong and anyone with any human decency would refuse these kind of orders.
All involved (up to and including *, Rumsfield, et al) need to be brought up on charges of crimes against humanity.

And anyone that says "they were only following orders", can bite me. :nuke: :grr:

[Bluerthanblue]

48. if i really

believed it could ever be stopped- i'd give my life to make it stop.

And i can't become 'them' to stop them,- one thing vickiss, about knowing right from wrong...... i've loved a few vietnam vets- more than a few- and the pain and suffering i've witnessed them go through as a result of doing what they though 'was right'- is more than punishment enough- especially for those who only went to war, and didn't drop napalm, or shoot civillians-... simply were sent into a world that made absolutely NO sense.

For many of the 18 and up 'kids' and even the seasoned older folks- i've come to understand that war can be like a bad lsd trip- unreal- like you're in somekind of a nightmare, and can't wake up- or get your bearings... it brings out strange things in otherwise 'normal' people.... beyond 'animalistic'... beyond description..... these torturers aare paying .... they are... because they can't wash what they've done out of their minds-

The talking heads- especially the cowboy king, now, are so 'divorced' from the gruesome, terrible stinking reality, that they can 'sleep well'- and i'd like to haunt their dreams for eternity-

[Mnemosyne]

61. I've loved and love Vietnam vets,

I lived through the nightmares and PTSD.

I would also give my life to end this nightmare, but if we can not conduct ourselves as human beings, what do we have left?

I respectfully disagree. Personal and up close torture is much different from dropping bombs or intense physical combat. And they do know that it is wrong and not how they would want to be treated as prisoners. These aren't actual combat actions from instinct and self-preservation. It is deliberate. NO EXCUSES.

Do unto others.

:hi:

[Ladyhawk]

63. It hurts too much to harden my heart, though.

After what happened to Andy, I fully realize what we're dealing with, yet I can't completely harden my heart against these people. They're evil, but if I harden my heart it only hurts me. The whole thing has been a quandary. I get angry, but I don't want to hate.

[undergroundpanther]

69. You can destroy without hate

Anger can be righteous.
Just because you have to kill what will destroy you and all you hold dear it does not mean you are evil.

Killing isn't evil as an always condition.We kill life it by existing and living.. in a reality that is flawed where life feeds on life to live by destroying..life. Its not our fault this reality is sick,

But we do not have to make reality more sick by loving killing

Nor do we have to make it sicker by tolerating killers and sociopaths.

Having no pity for a soulless person who would destroy you and torture you is actually a good thing..It means you can stop a problem and save your pity for a person who can feel your compassion and will not exploit you for caring.

Having a deeper understanding of what good and evil means when you put it in real life application helps you understand how things that on the surface are evil can be actually a good thing because of the "side effects" what it does causes..

Evil can look so bad at the moment but it is a good action if the fruits afterwords are good..

And good thing you assume is good can appear so good to you today but it's coming fruits are evil horrible.

Morality is never simple as a platitude and avoiding evil sometimes is more evil than doing evil and doing evil is sometimes a good thing.

taking responsibility is complex issue..it takes risk..But running away in simple good evil formulas and fear of action that may appear evil to people who lack depth does not make anyone free from evil or free or learn to be responsible for that matter.

I save my pity for people who will not use it to hurt me or manipulate me.I don't waste it on people who cannot feel my caring.
For there are plenty of folks with hearts who need love who can feel it.I don't waste my love on people who have no use for love.

[TankLV]

81. Perfectly explained. Just simply perfect.

The dems & progressives are playing "tag" when the other side is "kickboxing" & "deathmatch".

It does no good to play by the "Marquis of Queensbury Rules" when the rest are "street fighting" - and "fighting to the death".

If you turn the other cheek too many times, you soon run out of cheeks.

Righteous anger is completely justified.

[TankLV]

79. YES!

"We must become like evil to do the right thing now. Because being good to evil people is not good enough to stop them anymore."

If we choose to ignore this now again, it will be near impossible to regain control and turn it all around.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

27. What I suspect may be in the new sealed motion to suppress this evidence

that the government is about to file with the judge...

I think they will claim that this young girl would be disgraced in the Islamic community for having had her naked body exposed in public and that her life would be at risk if her identity got out. If that is the case, and this is just my speculation on what possible new argument the government could have for not releasing these pics/videos, then I think that girl and her entire family should be given US permanent residence and moved to a new beach front house in Malibu at US government expense and that when Bush's criminal conviction is handed down, he should have as part of his sentence the obligation to serve on that girl hand and foot as her valet for the rest of his miserable life.

(on edit) ... U.S. Attorney Lane has hinted that his new motion to the Judge under seal is accompanied by affidavits. I'm speculating, but perhaps those affidavits may be from family members coerced into writing statements by the U.S. fearing for the lives of their children, especially the females, if their identities get out. In fact, if that is the reason, that the humiliation undergone by certain young boys and girls in Iraq might jeopardize their lives under Islamic law, then we should step in to offer to sponsor those children to come to the United States. This could make for a great human interest story that CNN and the other media whores seem to love. We could offer these children who have been so brutalized and frightened at the hands of our own military better lives. I'm sure the ACLU could rally enough support to raise the money necessary for this from the left. This could be a very uplifting story in the midst of this darkness and we could see if the media is truly interested in these types of positive war stories.

[TankLV]

82. Or, with all this new technology available, couldn't we just blank out

their faces - or how about a good old black magic marker? -you know, like the ones this criminal misadministration is fond of using whenever records are finally subpoened after many tries of delays?

[Warren DeMontague]

120. Um, that's what the DoD was SUPPOSED to have been doing from

June 30th to July 22nd. They were ordered to turn over the stuff by June 30th, then requested more time specifically for the purpose of making the identities of the individuals in the images not recognizable.

Then, at the last minute, rather than turn over what they had been ordered to turn over, they play this card.

[mmonk]

34. Seems to

dovetail (pictures) with accounts I have read. I understand anyone wanting to use caution on an artist redention. However, with an account or two I read, the drawings do somewhat match. I think the American people should know and see what is going on though. Part of my father's legacy fighting the NAZI's in Europe was the development of the geneva conventions and war crime standards. It makes me angry we may be ending those standards.

[Tinoire]

39. The Women of Abu Ghraib

I don't think that we are prepared, no matter how hardened we are, for more pictures & yet we MUST see them. We MUST face what we are doing and we MUST hold all the supporters and excusers accountable. Our depravity in Iraq knows no bounds.

===
I posted this a long time ago... but for those of you who didn't read it...

The Women of Abu Ghraib

Do you remember the LIES that the reason Fallujah erupted was because there were "foreign" insurgents fighting and/or (because they always offer us a choice of lies from which to pick) that Sadr's men were upset that we had shut down a newspaper?

Lies. Lies. Rotten-Apple LIES!

Rumors of these atrocities have been on the internet for a while but because they weren't on the US corporate-owned media, we didn't give them enough attention.

The horrifying photos which emerged this week explain things much better than the corporate media or the apologists have ever been able to.

We heard about the men only because the "Occupation Armies" couldn't squelch the rumors and pictures began circulating on hard-core pornography sites. Soldiers had also started coming forward, horrified at what they KNEW was taking place and it was only then that the military 'realized' they had a problem & launched an 'investigation'. The first investigation, led by the Army’s chief law-enforcement officer, Provost Marshal Donald Ryder, a Major General, was a whitewash report that brought a few small problems to light. The second investigation, conducted by Major General Antonio M. Taguba which was not meant for public consumption, identifies a systemic problem. What we need now is a THIRD investigation by a respectable organization such as Amnesty International (which is conveniently barred from Abu Ghraib).

There is no mention of the women at Abu Ghraib and yet it was their plight that started the uprising. They were being released from that prison and sent out in the streets in stages of undress that we Americans would consider half-naked.

Common sense alone dictates that the women underwent the same type of horrors the men did. We don't need a third investigation to know that that happened. We need a third investigation to bring these crimes to light, expose & punish those involved, and show the world that those sociopaths responsible do NOT represent the American people.

I am outraged and ashamed.

- Brigadier General Janis Karpinski
- Staff Sergeant Ivan L. Frederick II
- Sergeant Javal Davis
- Specialist Charles A. Graner
- Specialist Megan Ambuhl
- Specialist Sabrina Harman
- Private Jeremy Sivits
- Private Lynndie England

This story mustn't end with this "garden" assortment of sacrificial lambs because the Army isn't tossing out a Brigadier General over the "alleged" crimes of 7 enlisted people, only two of whom are of ranks where you are entrusted with low-level responsibilities.

BG Krapinski and these 7 sorry fools are being tossed out as a diversion to prevent us from uncovering a much larger scandal involving contract torturers from CACI International Inc, ticker symbol CAI and Titan Corp, ticker symbol TTN as well as the CIA, the DIA and every rotten organization implicated in this world-class horror.

If you have links and stories about the others involved, please post them in this thread. Please post relevant snippets or synopses of the information and not just the link.

Please. For the men over there whose lives have been recklessly endangered by the sociopaths who are willing to "do whatever it takes". For the hostages. For our mothers. For our sisters. For our daughters. For our humanity.

====================================================================

03 05 2004 (Note the date)

The newspaper reminds that militants attacked the (Abu Ghraib) prison several days ago. 22 prison guards and inmates were killed and 51 injured. The reason for this was probably a leaflet that can be seen on the outside of the prison's wall...similar leaflets are now appearing in many mosques in Baghdad...cry for help from the hostages of that Iraqi prison...

«We are held in the northern sector. Attack this prison and put an end to our disgrace, and if you cannot do this for the love of the Most High, tell someone who can stick up for us or give us some 'Bahe Maneh al-Hamel'. May Allah and Iraqi patriots put an end to our tortures». 'Bahe Maneh al-Hamel' is the Arab for 'contraceptive pills'.

The women detained in Abu Ghraib are feeling ashamed when they evasively tell about the desperate situation that they are in (which any Eastern woman would experience in the conditions of constant violence committed by prison guards, new Iraqi policemen and the Americans). Any Muslim who read this message will feel his blood curdle from indignation.

<snip>

One of the Iraqis working on a contract with the US administration told La Stampa about one of such terrible episodes. He says that almost 2,500 inmates are held in that prison. The prison is divided into 4 sections. 600 inmates are women. One of them is a bank teller from Baghdad. She was put in jail in January for financial fraud. She could only be released on bail. The family collected $15,000 and this person was sent to discuss the details of release. When he saw her in a room, she had a big stomach. She was sobbing and telling that she was raped by Iraqi prison guards and American soldiers each night, and she does not want to get out of the prison. She told not to say anything to her relatives, because if she returns to Baghdad she will die from shame. :mad:

The same person said that two women already hung themselves in their cells. Another woman gave a birth in confinement. The newborn baby was a mulatto. Allegedly, the US military authorities conducted an internal investigation, but no guilty have been found.

Amnesty International is calling on the complex investigation of all cases of violence against the inmates in Iraq.

<snip>

http://www.kavkaz.org.uk/eng/article.php?id=2730
====


((with thanks to Chookie))

<snip>

The real facts are that there is report after report of US abuses; on the internet, in the back pages of our newspapers, in personal accounts that with a little luck will now make their way to mainstream press. This is not an isolated few - this is business as usual for the US military and their collaborating band of thugs in Iraq. Is it any wonder that bodies of US soldiers who fall into Iraqi hands are mutilated and displayed?

The pictures of US soldiers dishonoring Iraqi detainees came as no surprise to JUS (Jihad Unspun). We have been reporting alleged abuses since shortly after the fall of Baghdad. We received several reports over the past months of US soldiers raping Iraqi woman, only to find these photos posted to US porn sites. While these photos and reports were put down to "loose" Iraqi women (which shows a fundamental understanding of Iraq's religion and culture) we discovered later that those who were detained, some at Abu Ghraib prison, who refused to provide US officials with intelligence where given a prod to garner "cooperation" by rounding up the female relatives, forcing then into sexual acts that were filmed and then shown to their husbands, fathers and brothers and to the general public through porn sites. Now the CBS 60 Minutes II report legitimizes the incidents we have been reporting all along.

The Arab world is outraged. The Muslim Ummah is outraged. Iraqis are outraged and so are people of conscience everywhere. I pity the next soldiers that fall into Resistance hands. And contrary to its belief - America can be defeated and most likely will be defeated and dangled at the end of its own pathetic rope for all the world to see.

http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?article=2811&list=/home.php&

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1517119

[Karenina]

43. I believe my neighbors

:cry:

[Tinoire]

45. Karenina

Did you ever, ever believe we would see suvh things? So widespread & so accepted by people?

I am so totally heart-broken. Ashamed.

:hug:

[Bluerthanblue]

47. having

started out life the way i did, i never really trusted in 'goodness'- and when i did, i was continuously dissapointed.- Hope is so necessiary, but also, something that is very tricky-

Give a person hope, and they live- even in the worst of situations, but take that hope away, and they die- even if not in imediatly in physical ways- And the next 'fix' isn't as tempting as the first- until hope begins to seem like an enemy......

i'm sorry to but in,- and with such gloom- this article triggered some nasty stuff- in me..... and shows me yet again.... that nothing ever changes... no matter how hard you work

Elinor Rosevelt wrote:

When will our consciences grow so tender, that we will act to prevent human misery, rather than avenge it?

tonite i don't think it ever will.......

[Tinoire]

53. Thank you for butting in

Your post is very sad but very true...

[Ladyhawk]

62. "until hope begins to seem like an enemy......"

I have felt this. When hopes are continually dashed, hope begins to seem like poison.

I think the pictures should be released. If the United States is behaving that badly in Iraq, it will hasten the end of the war. In the meantime, our soldiers will receive payback. I wish things were simple, but they're not.

The Pentagon should beef up defense in preparation for the release of the photos and the withdrawal of American troops from Iraq. It has to happen sooner or later. I vote "sooner."

[Bluerthanblue]

64. thank you both, it

is so sad, that life can be so ugly.

But the truth, is always best-
And silence is no protection- it is an enemy-

i'm sorry to be so negative.... thank you Tinoir and Ladyhawk for caring-and for not giving in.-
and choosing kindness

blu

[Ladyhawk]

67. You are welcome.

I have suffered through severe depression. I'm still fighting it. I haven't given up.

I've started a new phase of attacks on the depression: getting my diabetes under control, getting my pain under control, cranial electrotherapy, counseling, anti-depressants, anti-anxiety meds and a course on overcoming anxiety and depression. I'm not sure about the last one, but I'm getting to the point where I'll try just about anything. :) I really want to be well.

You might want to try posting in the mental health forum if hope really does feel like it's become poisonous. When that happens, it's time to seek help. :)

Good luck to you.

[Swamp Rat]

52. Wie geht's Karenina?

:hug:

[Karenina]

71. Tears of RAGE...

Wutschrei...

[Hubert Flottz]

56. The freepers don't believe anything they don't see with their own

eyes. Have they seen God Or Jesus lately??? * NO, I'M GUESSING NOT!

Just asking!

I'm sickened by the things Bushco is doing at home and abroad. Rush says it's just frat pranks and the freepers STILL, cheer that druggie shit bag on and then in the GOPers next breath they call someone Immoral? WAR IS ALWAYS BRUTAL! Believe it!

The kind of war we are engaged in, in Iraq, is the same kind the Germans fought during WWII. We are the invaders this time and the people who's country we occupy are the resistance. Hitler made up lies to cause the invasion of Poland. Bush made up lies to invade Iraq. The GESTAPO was brutal to people suspected of resisting the German invaders! Bush's Contractors who are conducting the "interrogations" of "suspected resistors" in Iraq, are brutal also, and for the exact same reasons the Gestapo tortured it's victims.

Anyone who didn't see the shitstorm ahead when we became the invaders was a total idiot! As soon as I knew the invasion of Iraq had actually gotten underway, I thought about things like the Germans and the little Czech village of Lidice. I'll post a link to some information about the razing of Lidice, at the bottom of my post.

NO IT WASN'T ONLY THE SOLDIERS, who handled the prisoners in Iraq it was CIA and Private Contractors also! Civilian people who are not accountable to anyone in congress! Civilian people who work for the justice department and the DoD. The Gestapo were Civilians too!

The Massacre in Lidice, June 10th, 1942

http://www.zchor.org/lidice1.htm

NEVER AGAIN??????????????????????

[truth2power]

41. goddammit all to hell!! these pictures MUST be got out somehow.

Whatever it takes. Putting them on the internet from a server in another country, or whatever.

Someone, somewhere, may have copies, I don't know. But once they'd be on the internet, those vile insects in the WH could never shut them down.

I loathe that sick, sick, bastard Bush. And all the rest of his cabal. :puke: :puke:

[Disturbed]

51. Those photos and videos will never be seen of Amerikan TV.

I am surprised they still exist. I won't be surprised it they "accidentally" got destroyed. What can anyone do about it if they did?

[truth2power]

68. I agree with you that

they'll never be seen on American TV. But I think they'll end up on the internet. I can only hope that somewhere, somehow, someone has copies and/or is enough of a patriot to leak them.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

103. How much you want to bet that at least one copy exists?

[nookiemonster]

121. I definitely won't take that bet!

I am almost certain that there are "extra" copies out there somewhere.

At least I hope so.

[burrowowl]

49. I saved the pics

in jpeg and a file folder, per request of poster.
Hopefully someone will save to the DU archives.
AND when are the 'official' pics going to be released?

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

84. Can you post them here? Kos links are now dead.

Thanks.

JB

[Hissyspit]

101. My brother emailed thememoryhole.org and suggested they host the

illustrations at that site, so if anyone can get them to me, I can email them to them there.

[Hubert Flottz]

57. Kick the serial Liars out!

:kick:

[wtmusic]

66. How the hell would Germans get them?

Though shit like this undoubtedly happened--no source, no photos? This is a sensationalist fabrication.

[helderheid]

80. yes I have to wonder too

Why is Germany privy to these photos and we aren't? If they are, why an artist's rendition and not the actual photos?

[Stand and Fight]

70. Oh God...

This country is screwed. Period. The country is in the hands of fascist sociopaths and there is nothing we can do about it if this is ignored by the media. Nothing.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

83. I see no pictures...bandwidth exceeded message. Anyone post them here?

These pictures need to be placed in more than one Web location. I'm not seeing anything on the Kos website.

JB

[in_cog_ni_to]

85. same here...exceeded bandwidth.

Can a DUer post them here?

[dobegrrrl]

86. Have the Repugs managed to censor pics? I get same message

[Tommymac]

88. I copied them..but

have no where to host them...my photobucket account will do the same thing...I'd be glad to email or pm them to someone who has a site that can host them....send me a pm

[burrowowl]

89. I can pm them too!

Did you get a reply?

[Tommymac]

90. Not yet....

[goodboy]

99. I think BenBurch can do it. PM him. I want to see these drawings (nt)

[goodboy]

95. that's what I get too. (nt)

[gulliver]

92. The artist's rendition means nothing, unfortunately.

Let's wait for the actual photos.

[Warren DeMontague]

116. Yes, lets wait.

Better yet, let's raise holy hell about the fact that our government is defying a court order and the law of the land to prevent us from finding out what was done in our names.

I don't know if you've been paying much attention to this story, but we've already "waited". If all we do is "wait", we're going to be waiting a REALLY LONG TIME.

[qanda]

93. Self Delete

[neweurope]

97. My first thought: Americans. Baby torturers, we've always known it.

My second thought: This is human nature, this is "man without God", a quotation from a German doctor who witnessed the atrocities by the Russians who first entered Germany in WW II. He impressed me because - unlike many other Germans - he looked behind the national mask, if you understand... (and the fact that Germans were the first to become like animals when they were winning in Russia does NOT enter this).

Beasts don't do this. Men do. :cry: It has always been like this - things people cannot do in their own society they do - and often enough with PLEASURE! - when they are conquerors.

------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[greblc]

113. This is the post I was expecting to see...

an example of what happens when sketches become proof.

Americans are Baby Torturers! Could this be a generalization?

Vicious Soldiers without souls.

Lord save us.

[neweurope]

115. You know, after what we've been hearing from Guantanamo,

Afghanistan, Abu Guraib all this desperate yelling for "proof" sounds a little hollow.

It's up to your government to prove something as has been pointed out. Evidently you didn't really read my post, but so what...it's you doing the generalization, really, by accusing fellow DUers that they're seeing "the army" as guilty. Nobody has said that every soldier is torturing. But some certainly are - which is a proven fact -, and of those we're speaking.

--------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Frederik]

119. Oh yes, there's no "proof"

because the government is refusing to release it. Seymour Hersh has seen the videos and he says the worst thing is the screams of the little boys as they are raped.

[Hissyspit]

100. Can someone please PM me the saved pictures? I forgot to right-click

on them and save them myself. Feel free to reduce them first! :7

[WLKjr]

106. I don't see them anymore

[ConfuZed]

111. DAMN IT! NOOOOOOOOOO!

Tell me SOMEONE saved them!

[greblc]

114. Pictures Or Sketches?

[Hissyspit]

129. Illustrations would be more accurate term.

I DID not say photographs. They are clearly illustrations/sketches inspired by verbal descriptions. They are NOT drawings from photographs. Drawings from photographs look like photographs to a great extent.

[Gasping4Truth]

124. For what it's worth

Here's a picture I found on Uruknet in this article

[Tommymac]

127. Check your email!

:hi:

[Hissyspit]

130. Thanks, Tommymac n/t

[truth2power]

132. Looks like you got them already. but I have them on my HD.

[FourStarDemocrat]

122. What are the chance that the real photos will be released?

Anyone have any idea? I know that the Center for Constituional Rights and the ACLU are involved, but are they suing under the Freedom of Information Act?

[DS1]

126. Jesus Christ will these amateurs NOT use Photobucket

:nuke: :eyes: