The Nazi Card

[Kire]

I don't think it's so bad to compare Bush with Hitler.

All of the fume and steam you can generate isn't going to negate rhetorical fact that Bush is a lot like Hitler. There are inherent similarities.

The only way you can win is to get me to intimidate me until I recant.

If we don't learn from history, we're doomed to repeat it, right?

Public dialogue is a good thing.

[DanCa]

1. I am really rethinking my position on this need help.

I dont like it when the rethugs question my patriotism so is it fair for me to question theres? I am not telling anyone what to say or do I am just verbalising my current soul searching of this of this subject. Do I still fight by the marcus of queensberry rules or do I become a street fighter? What do you think?
Keep cool Danny. :) :)

[Montauk6]

3. Well, I'll put it to you like this, Daniel

Would you use the Marquis of Queensbury rules against Mike Tyson who's behind on points?

; )

[DanCa]

6. Lol good point allthough

It work for evander allthough it cost him an ear. :D

[Montauk6]

2. I remember bringing this up a few weeks back, viz. why is the Nazi

card such an alleged argument-killer. The most obvious answer is that Bush's atrocities don't come anywhere near Adolf's.

Well, since then, I got to thinking (be nice, ya'll)... it always seems like that school of thought sticks to our side but not for THEIR side.

For instance, how many times have we heard 2nd Amendment clingers equate ANY gun legislation to the gun confiscations in Germany during the Third Reich? How many times have we heard "Hitler was a librullll"? Or what about "feminazis"? Or Abortion=Holocaust?

IMHO, we don't play it enough!

[annabanana]

4. Yeah, He's not as bad as Hitler.........YET

But then again, neither was Hitler when he was stoppable..

[Kire]

13. it's not even that he's "not as bad as" Hitler

he's not, that's a given

it's that he's a lot like, as in, similar to, as in, he uses the same methods as Hitler

don't let them change the premises on you

[hootinholler]

33. I agree, he's not as bad as Hitler, he's worse...

Did Hitler's troops sodomize children in front of thier parents?

The only thing Hitler did better was quantity, but, Bush ain't finished yet.

-Hoot

[startingnow]

5. Down the line

In years time, people will stop using Hitler and will replace it with Bush.

[bassman79]

7. Reichstag Fire

January 30, 1933
Weimar Republic President Paul von Hindenburg appoints Adolph Hitler Chancellor.
February 27, 1933
The German Parliament (Reichstag) burns down. A dazed Dutch Communist named Marinus van der Lubbe is found at the scene and charged with arson. .
February 28, 1933
President Hindenburg and Chancellor Hitler invoke Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution, which permits the suspension of civil liberties in time of national emergency. This Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of the People and State abrogates the following constitutional protections:

* Free expression of opinion
* Freedom of the press
* Right of assembly and association
* Right to privacy of postal and electronic communications
* Protection against unlawful searches and seizures
* Individual property rights
* States' right of self-government

A supplemental decree creates the SA (Storm Troops) and SS (Special Security) Federal police agencies.
Who Did It?
Historians do not agree on who is actually responsible for the Reichstag Fire: van der Lubbe acting alone -- a Communist plot -- or *THE NAZIS THEMSELVES* in order to create an incident. Writers such as Klaus P. Fischer feel that most likely the Nazis were involved.

But regardless of who actually planned and executed the fire, it is clear that the Nazis immediately took advantage of the situation in order to advance their cause at the expense of civil rights. The Decree enabled the Nazis to ruthlessly suppress opposition in the upcoming election.
March 5, 1933
National elections give Nazis 44% plurality in the Reichstag. Herman Göring declares that there is no further need for State governments.

Over the next few weeks, each of the lawful Weimar State governments falls to the same ruse:

* Local Nazi organizations instigate disorder;
* The disorder is quelled by replacing the elected state government by appointed Nazi Reich Commissioners.

March 24, 1933
The Reichstag passes the Law for Terminating the Suffering of People and Nation , also known as the Enabling Law , essentially granting Adolph Hitler dictatorial power.
ANALYSIS
The events in 1933 can be summarized as follows:

* While it is not clear whether the Nazis intentionally set the Reichstag fire in order to create a national crisis, or whether the Nazis simply were opportunistic, the event was used as justification for a sharp curtailment in constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties.
* The Nazis took advantage of the additional Federal police powers to suppress opponents.
* It is clear that in other situations, the Nazis did use the tactic of creating a "law and order" crisis so that they could provide a solution which further eroded civil liberties and entrenched their power.
* The right-wing Nazis and the left-wing communists were cut from the same cloth -- the point is not that the far right destroyed civil rights. Rather, the point is that a democracy can be destroyed by creating a law-and-order crisis and offering as a 'solution' the abdication of civil liberties and state's rights to a powerful but unaccountable central authority.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

22. dupe

[bridgit]

8. i've always felt 'nazis' to be associated...

not only with hitler himself, but a greater union of german corporate/industrialists willing to use war as a means to perpetuate german expansion of the 'Reich' at the time; hitler was their focal point around which; so much otherwise brilliant ingenuity was made to suffer & ultimately made to be undone by way of one lunatic & his personal, too say the very least: foibles. it is imo, that greater reach of 'corporate/industrialists' that connotes 'nazism', so that by concentrating on the whereabouts of some hitler-esque personage somewhere on the stage, we never really get our minds all the way around what 'they' have in mind for the rest of us again imo

[applegrove]

9. The Nazi insult was one of the top ten insults on the internet long

before Bush was elected. Used to describe cabal type actions and controlling behaviour.

So now - it is overused and too common. So fine. We have other ways of describing them.

[bridgit]

11. agreed, bush's dad was said to be part...

of ushering in "a kinder, gentler form of fascism" after reagan

[Selatius]

10. I use the Corporatist card because it's far more descriptive

Just read my signature.

[ladjf]

12. Except that BushCo is so much more dangerous the the human

race.

[Kire]

14. thanks

to whomever voted for greatest page

:yourock:

[Swamp Rat]

15. Bush = Hitler

When Hitler committed suicide, his evil soul floated around until the Jackal gave birth to Bushler on July 6, 1946, whereupon he entered the body. :)

[Bonhomme Richard]

16. Just finished reading "The Coming of the Third Reich"......

Very interesting reading and educational. The times and political situation in Germany was very different and a major contributing factor to the growth of Nazism.
The similarities that I did notice were:
The neocons most certainly understand how the nazis used propaganda.
The neocons are targeting the same type of groups for support.
The neocons have absolutely no regard for the law unless it favors their cause.
Most importantly, the neocons loathe Democracy and Democratic institutions.

[wli]

17. the Nazi card is perfectly appropriate

Their crimes may not be as great as the Nazis' yet, but they've certainly associated with Nazis in the past (this is not a court of law, so association is valid) and furthermore are aping them rather openly (Reichstag Fire vs. 9/11, Night of the Long Knives vs. CIA/FBI purges,
Kristallnacht vs. mosque-burning and Arab-American harassment, etc.).

[Kire]

18. you're falling into the degree trap, again

don't even use words like "as bad as" or "worse" or "almost there soon", just say bush is like hitler and you'll be right every time

it's not a pissing contest, you can't be a little bit pregnant

[wli]

19. the moral agreement here is too substantial for further bickering

We agree so much it's counterproductive to try to make further distinctions.

[Kire]

26. sounds like a nice way to tell me to shut up

:nuke:

[wli]

28. sorry if I came off like that

I was trying to say that I myself was coming around to your POV.

[Kire]

31. cool

:yourock:

[bassman79]

20. Bush's grandfather was major Nazi bankroller

If at first you don't succeed..

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. The funds loaned by Herbert Walker's Union Bank, of which....

...Prescott Bush was a director, were used to finance the Nazi Party, and to build concentration camps.

Oddly enough, Rove's grandfather was one of the top leaders of the Nazi Party, and also helped build Birkenau, one of Nazi Germany's many concentration camps.

Siege Heil: The Bush-Rove-Schwarzenegger Nazi Nexus and the Destabilization of California
<http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1006-08.htm>

QUOTE:

George W. Bush's grandfather helped finance the Nazi Party. Karl Rove's grandfather allegedly helped run the Nazi Party, and helped build the Birkenau Death Camp. Arnold Schwarzenegger's Austrian father volunteered for the infamous Nazi SA and became a ranking officer.

Together, they have destabilized California and are on the brink of bringing it a new Reich. With the Schwarzenegger candidacy they have laid siege to America's largest state, lining it up for the 2004 election.

The Bush family ties to the Nazi party are well known. In their 1994 Secret War Against the Jews, Mark Aarons and John Loftus use official US documents to establish that George Herbert Walker, George W. Bush's maternal great-grandfather, was one of Hitler's most important early backers. He funneled money to the rising young fascist through the Union Banking Corporation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. More than adecuate

Niemuler and Arend would agree and I will and continue to use it

The reason they get so incensesd and are tryng to change the subject is... it applies

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

23. The supposed "reason" for this "no-Nazi rule" is because use of the

word "Nazi" supposedly = immediate mental image of 6 million dead Jews in ovens conjured.

The "theory" is that essentially anything modern pales in comparison to this so the analogy is automatically rejected by your opponent in debate, and, correspondingly any credibility that you might have in the argument. Since you have supposedly shot your own credibility, you have "lost" the argument.

So, the corresponding "rule" is that you can NEVER invoke the word "Nazi".

I think the rule is crap.

Well, one thing history teaches us is that humans have a great capacity and talent for atrocity, including "great liberal societies" like the U.S. (slavery). Part of the whole importance of studying events like the rise and fall of the Nazis, and the Holocaust, is based on the premise that the potential for such a thing is contained within every human heart, and that to understand its origins, to see how it developed, gives the key to recognize and prevent such a thing from happening again. To say that it's impossible for something to be like the Nazis, or that another Holocaust could never occur, would assign the Nazis and to Hitler some unique, supernatural, qualities that no time or place could ever produce again, instead of calling them simply men who committed evil acts. This goes against everything we know. One of the most alarming things about the era is precisely that ordinary people in that country went right along with it, people who were likely no different than those in any other country or time.


So what if some government, this or another, had death camps and exterminated a million. Would the comparison then be adequate? What if it was 5.5 million? Would it then be fair? What if it were 8 million? Could we THEN use the "N" word?

What if a government used every method used by the Nazis in their rise to power, including heavy coordinated national propaganda campaigns, demonizing of their enemies, rollback of political freedom and rights, power centered around war based nationalism? These are methods that are not unique to the Nazis, but what if their use by a government and a leader was so similar to the Nazis that it was eerie, almost as if the architect of that leadership were trying to emulate the Minister of Propaganda, and the leadership methods of that country and time...

Would it then be fair to make the comparison?

[AX10]

24. Well the right wing noise machine calls us "terrorists" on a daily..

basis. I see no problem with "Bush = Hitler".

[Massacure]

25. How can you guys honestly compare Bush to Hitler?

Hitler was actually good at what he did!!! :eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. I was about to spank you

then I read it....

There is a saying that goes something like this, the first time it is serious the second time that history repeats itself, it is commedy.

Now I don't find any of the last five years funny... but at least they have not reached YET the levels of the third reich, but not for lack of trying I fear

[Media_Lies_Daily]

30. It took the Nazis almost eight years to formalize the Final Solution....

...we're into year five.

I don't think we want to wait to find out what this crowd is really capable of doing.

[barb162]

32. About 400,000 American soldiers died in WW2 and millions

of people died in Europe because of Hitler. Bush is a sociopath in his own unique way.