A man restrained by cops is executed in the street London. By the cops.

[LynnTheDem]

An INNOCENT man.

Children are tortured & raped, and "interred" in camps, no access to their families or lawyers or trials, in Iraq courtesy of US troops.

A nation that had been doing nothing whatsoever to anyone is invaded and occupied, with 128,000 civilians killed. So far.

Men & children held for 3 years without charges, without access to lawyers, without trials, are then released as "innocent of any wrong-doing"...just "in the wrong place at the wrong time".

Sorry but hey no big deal.

MUCH better to kill and/or lock up innocent human beings than to risk letting a guilty one go free!

SOMEONE'S winning the "war on terra"...only it ain't us.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LynnTheDem]

2. Truth & reality are drama queens.

What can I say. :shrug:

[magellan]

4. Lynn tells it like it is, Sunshine

It's pretty sad that the first thing you think to do is insult her for caring.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

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[arcos]

51. Was that sarcasm? nt

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pachamama]

3. Good rant Lynn....I agree....

:rant:

:hi:

PS: Never apologize for being a drama queen....:)

[Liberal In Texas]

5. Hush. What would you think if the guy HAD explosives on him?

The person killed by the Brit cops was pretty much responsible for his own death.

He ran, he went into the tube when he HAD to know the tension was high, that you don't run from the coppers around the underground, even plain clothes, and if you do you might end up dead.

Sorry, the cops in London are heros...they risked their lives doing what they do. OK, the guy wasn't a a terrorist, but he very well could have been.

[magellan]

17. Nonsense

Jumping a potential suicide bomber -- piling on him on the floor -- is irrational. A lot of suicide bombers use manual triggering devices rather than timed detonators. The probable result isn't difficult to imagine. The bomb still goes off; bystanders still die.

And this mentality -- OK, the guy wasn't a a terrorist, but he very well could have been -- is just unspeakable. It's the same excuse the Right hands everyone for the destruction of Iraq, the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians, and the indefinite detainment, abuse and murder of terrorist suspects including children. It is NEVER OK.

Imagine that dead Brazilian man was your son or brother or father. Let me know if "Whoops! Well, he could have been a terrorist" would still wash with you.

[TreasonousBastard]

34. He could have been drunk or epileptic, too, but...

did turn out not to be a bomber.

I'm trying to remember just when these tactics and procedures have actually caught someone they were looking for.

They certainly may have discouraged some people, but killing suspects on the run is probably a bit much if you just want to discourage others.

[alarcojon]

92. or mentally ill?

or prone to panic attacks?

[EFerrari]

72. I could have been a terrorist, too. Shoot me.

Is this what passes for thought around here?

You blame the victim? :wtf:

[LifeDuringWartime]

81. but did he know that they were cops?

did he speak english?

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

85. Actually I would be angry

That they let this man go all the way to the subway station before they tried to stop and question him. Sounds to me as if they had ample opportunity since they began following him when he left him flat, watched him board a bus, and only started chasing him when he started into the subway station. Why let a suspected bomber get all the way to a subway station where he could put so many in danger?

[alarcojon]

93. My question exactly

This story is fishy on so many levels....

[marions ghost]

98. he COULD have been...?!?

:banghead:

Seems like an opinion straight out of Monty Python...well he acted suspicious and terrorists sometimes act suspicious, and therefore we killed him....

Even the police aren't taking up for themselves on this one. Yes, they do a tough job, but there are higher police standards for handling suspects than this. The fact that the police have admitted it was a mistake and are trying to apologize all over the place, tells the story. They aren't defending it. That's the MORE admirable part of this sad story.

A lot of Americans would have all kinds of compassion if they knew this victim, but they just can't muster it up for a stranger. He MUST have "asked for it."

[Nothing Without Hope]

6. The victim was a young Brazilian man - guess he looked sort of Arabic

You know, swarthy and black hair--clear signs of guilt, apparently.

The racism in this death is a stench to choke us all. I hope it wakes people up.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1535246,00.html

Man shot in terror hunt was innocent young Brazilian

· Met regrets London shooting 'tragedy'
· Victim's country seeks talks with Straw

Tony Thompson, Gaby Hinsliff and Alexandre Xavier
Sunday July 24, 2005
The Observer

A young Brazilian man, living and working in London as an electrician, emerged last night as the innocent victim shot dead by police in their hunt for the suicide bombers targeting the capital.

The dead man, killed at Stockwell tube station on Friday after fleeing from armed police, was named as 27-year-old Jean Charles de Menezes. His body was identified by Alex Pereira, a cousin who lives in London and who afterwards told The Observer: 'I can't believe they shot him, because he was not a terrorist. He was an honest man.

(snip)

'We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday, 21 July 2005,' it said. 'For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police service regrets.'

Downing Street and Home Office sources last night declined to comment. But Ken Livingstone, London's Mayor, said the 'human tragedy' should be laid at the door of the terrorists.

(snip)

Excuse me? It wasn't the terrorists who shot that innocent young man. And no one seems to be admitting this, but I believe he'd be alive today if he were blond and blue-eyed.

[Liberal In Texas]

7. No. It was a series of strange happenings. IF he had been

one of the bombers, the cops would look like heros.

But the guy ran. He didn't stop when told to. With all the edginess in London, I do NOT BLAME THEM one bit.

Will you people on DU stop trying to say that this is some sort of racial execution. It was not. The cops were tryig to prevent another bombing, and yes, they got the wrong guy. But how were they to know?

[neweurope]

9. "How were they to know?" Exactly. Somebody running from

the police is an everday occurance. So now shooting (and yes, in my mind it IS an execution, and yes, it IS based on race - a blond guy with military haircut would NOT have been shot I daresay) everybody who runs from police - maybe because he has a little dope on him or whatever - will be an everday occurance, too?

:grr:

-------------------------

<{b>Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[ConfuZed]

11. Seems like you forgot the part where they held him down and shot him

Doesnt sound like he was much of a danger. (assholes)

[jsamuel]

12. They had him subdued on the ground with his front side on the ground.

And a officer holding him down. They then shot him in the head 5 times.

I do blame them.

[LynnTheDem]

29. It's ok we invaded Iraq killing 128,000 civilians, coz after all,

Iraq COULD have done 911.

[daleo]

50. Why did the cops let him ride the bus but not the subway?

Speaking of strange happenings.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

94. Maybe by stopping him when they first saw him

Showing their identification and asking for his.

[neweurope]

8. I agree. Dark haired, dark skinned will be a great risk from now on.

The police were SITTING on the man when they shot him point blank. That's execution, period. Five shots, too. As to "he COULD have been a terrorist carrying a bomb - what would you have said then?" The only answer is: Life IS NOT SAFE, NEVER. Are we now going to shoot everybody who COULD MAYBE be a terrorist???!!

And I suspect the real terrorists not running from the police, but giving orders to the police.

Everybody read up again on Operation Gladio. I for one cannot ever believe any government source again after Bologna.

---------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Liberal In Texas]

13. Yes they did. Wouldn't you?

They wrestled him down and put 5 slugs in his head. They had every right to think this guy was going to the tube to blow it up. One witness saw a belt with wires hanging out. I think the cops were brave, they took the guy out a shooting with "might" they kept the potential bomber from triggering the explosives.

THIS WAS NOT AN EXECUTION! It was mistaken identity, over-reaction?- would I like to see it again? Yep.

I know, he didn't turn out to be a bomber and all that, but this guy pretty much was responsible for his own death. He ran, did not get down on the pavement with his hands up when told to, and wetnesses were telling the cops he had a belt with wires. DUH...You have to take him out.

[jsamuel]

14. Judge Jury and Executioner

The terrorists have won according to you.

[Liberal In Texas]

18. Well, that's another story.

Yes, they've won. Every time I have to take my shoes off at the airport or have to have my video gear searched to go into a tall office tower,
they've won.

They have created uncertainty and terror in our every-day lives. Oh yes, they've won.

And it makes me sad.

[jsamuel]

19. dupe

[Vinnie From Indy]

109. Total Bullshit!

I laugh in your face! The terrorists have won because you have to take off your shoes at the airport? HA! So many Americans are buying into the FICTION that terrorists could even remotely change our way of life. Even more laughable are the claims that we will all be facing Mecca five times a day here in America if we don't kill Muslims "over there". Calling that idea absurd insults absurd ideas everywhere.

The facts should be plainly obvious to you by now. It is not Osama and bogeyman Zarqawi that are destroying the freedoms so many generations of Americans have fought and died to protect, it is BushCo, the GOP and those Dems in Congress that slash and burn OUR Constitution using their well crafted hyperbolic messages of fear. I dare say that taking your shoes off in an airport and equating that to "the terrorists have won" is so far beyond idiocy that it defies explanation. For most reality based souls, the destruction of our freedoms by our own countrymen for the sole purpose of stealing as much money as possible and the establishment of a police state in which they will hold complete power is a far graver threat than Osama and Zarqawi.

[jsamuel]

21. I am more terrified by our government than by terrorists right now.

I think that our government has created and supported the terror that has come since 9/11. Feeding it, keeping it on life support as long as they possibly can. They want us to be afraid. People who are afraid are much easier to control.

I don't think the terrorists have won.

I think this man was shot dead because he knew something and they didn't want him talking.

Think about it. He was a foreign electrician.

I obviously have no proof, but I can't help thinking this when someone is executed for running from police. My cousin was executed for running too, he didn't have any weapons either. His crime: running away from home. He was only 17 years old.

[sattahipdeep]

100. The police had a choice too.

Why did they follow him to the train station
instead of shooting him after he left the flat?

[neweurope]

15. Reread my post :)

-----------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[ConfuZed]

16. Hey LibInTexas you are giving texans a bad name

They didnt shoot him running (as you priviously though) he fell,they got on top of him and shot him 5 times in the head and where the hell did you get info that wires were hanging off him I want a source.

I'm sure you would have been outraged if Erie police shot Brian Douglas Wells.

[Liberal In Texas]

23. I am? Giving Texans a bad name? I thought Frist et al was doing that

Anyway...It was off the BBC I think I might still have it bookmarked...I'll have a see..


Ah here it is ... Another passenger on the train, Anthony Larkin, told BBC News the man appeared to be wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out".

now I've found it at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

And I surly hope this crap stops. My wife is British and she's going back to see her folks in the next couple of months...and I don't want to worry about her being on the trains or the tube.

[jsamuel]

24. He was an electrician.

[bridgit]

28. my boyfriend is a writer but mentioned something...

the day the second group of would-be bombers seemed to have foiled themselves, and i paraphrase: 'watch them run a guy into the tubes that only meets the barest of criteria, get him shot, and wail to high heaven about the inhumanity of the british law & resolve to muslims & immigrants alike'.

i just found the gist what he had said, in advance, to then be splashed across the headlines; to be an odd sort of prophecy.

[magellan]

22. Piling on a suspect and shooting him dead is gangland justice.

Or, apparently, good old-fashioned Texas-styled compassion.

[Liberal In Texas]

38. This is not GANG-LAND. This is the UK. OK?

The underground, or the Tube as they call it, is the bloody life-blood of the city.

The cops don't normally ever carry guns. This was a weird and awful situation. If you live in Iowa or Ohio or someplace and you don't even understand the panic going on in London right now.

This guy that got shot, KILLED HIMSELF! Don't you understand that? He is in a city that is very much on edge. The tube was bombed TWICE this month, and this guy runs from the coppers... after being told to stop, lie down, and put his hands up. In the BLOODY TUBE! Witnesses are saying (and telling the cops during the chase) that he as a belt with wires, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? Ask him for his passport or just stop running long enough so we can have our inquiries? NO! The guys jumps a turnstile and gets on a train. ON A CAR WITH PROBABLY around a hundred people.

He trips on one of the passengers. The plain-close tackle him. At this point they still think he has a bomb. OK, suspect may have a bomb around his torso. WHAT THE FUCK WOULD YOU DO?

There is a 50/50 chance that a bomb will have a "dead mans" switch. It makes no difference what you do. It's going to blow. So, the other alternative is you kill the guy before he can activate the plunger in his hand. You don't shoot in the body, because that's where the explosives probably are. You shoot the head, to kill him and disabled his motor reflexes.

Those cops were brave and deserve medals.

Oh, by the way. Texas bashing is kind of a sport here, but I'm going to tell you right now, DON'T FUCKING DO IT! GET MY DRIFT?

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Oh trust me I understand

hell they jumped on him to absorb some of the blast... that said this will lead to review... anything like this always does.

[magellan]

45. Those cops were following orders, that's all

What the fuck would I do? I wouldn't agree to orders to shoot to kill suspected terrorists who don't comply with commands. That way of thinking leaves no room for mistakes on the part of suspect or police. Now maybe YOU'RE perfect, but most human beings aren't. And this innocent guy paid the ultimate price for not looking and behaving as expected.

And by the way, I'll say what I like about Texas as long as people give me reason to. Get MY drift?

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Those orders will be reviewed

I understand where they came from, and if oh NYC had some bombings, you would see similar orders... but it takes something like this, for those orders and procedures to be reviewed.

[LynnTheDem]

78. This Texan says right on, magellan!

I don't like threats, either. I do like free speech. Some Texans apparently do not.

[LynnTheDem]

77. As a Texan, I'd say "OR WHAT?"

Get my drift?

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

86. Why did they allow him to get all the way to the tube station

Before they tried to question him?

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberal In Texas]

41. Just checked you're profile...you are from FLORIDA!

Don't even tell me about Texas-style this or that ... you guys stole the 2000 election from Gore.

N'est pas?

We are going to be the biggest blue state in history ... in just a few years. Austin, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, El Paso, we're getting there. We just need to firm up the Repukes in the rural areas.

If you want to bash Texas, I'm up for it.

[magellan]

46. Very clever

Now guess where I was living in 2000.

[Liberal In Texas]

57. Oh....let me think....FLORIDA?

Just stop the region bashing, if you want a flame war, you've got it.

[magellan]

63. Wrong.

And it wasn't actual state-bashing so much as a comment on what I thought of your argument in defense of this man's death. Sorry, but it put me in mind of the "compassionate" Texan squatting in the WH. I apologize for being snide...I'm just very tired of the endless excuses. If only we were as good at killing terrorists as we are innocent civilians. If only more people cared that we aren't and what it's leading us to.

BTW, if you ever figure out where I'm originally from you're free to bash my home state. Lots of people do, including my husband. It doesn't bother me a bit.

[Liberal In Texas]

69. No, remember I called it REGION bashing?

I could care less where you are from originally. And I must agree with you about the good at "killing of terrorists as we are innocent civilians." I could not agree more!

But to blame Texas for the Bush corporate agenda is like blaming Wyoming for Cheney or Ohio for queering the votes in 2004. First of all, the Busites came from the east coast. They came to Texas as carpetbaggers and kind of took over. We've had Demo's here that have made a difference, LBJ, Ann Richards, and John Hightower.

Yes, we've got a bunch of repukes controlling the state right now, but that will change. As surly as they get convicted for crimes, we'll get our state back.

The "browning" of the population will help. Look for Texas in the next 4 to 8 years to be a "blue" state. It''s going to be significant on a national level.

There's a bunch of us libs here, and we're fighting tooth and nail to get the assholes out.

Don't count us out yet!

[magellan]

75. Is Texas a region now?

I'm joking. I don't know why you call it region-bashing. Please show me where I blame TX for BushCo's agenda. And if you don't care where I'm from then why the interest in my profile? So you could insult me? See, you do care!

Look, if you're fighting the good fight in TX, great. I never said otherwise. My argument with you was over one tiny sliver of what you're about -- your defense of the killing of an innocent man -- and you've somehow blown that out of all proportion into a regional insult and an indictment of your credentials as a liberal. I explained my comment and apologized. That's it for me.

[converted_democrat]

88. Forget about giving Texans a bad name, your giving humans a bad name.....

How can anyone think that this was okay? How? They jumped on top of him and pumped 5 bullets in his head. It's not okay, on any level.

[MadHound]

74. There is a darkness in your soul, of fear, and loathing

You state that you would like to see this happen again. How sad. Killing innocent people, based on their looks and their actions. This man didn't try to do anything violent, he ran because he was an illegal immigrant. He was brown skinned, wearing a coat because he was cold, couldn't respond to the cops because he can't speak the language, quite common, especially among illegals. And this sits well with you? Terribly sad for you friend. Blaming the victim to salve your conscience.

This man was prone on the ground, with an officer on top of him. One good blow, if you've had any sort of training at all, would have rendered this man unconcious. If this man was a terrorist, gee what information they could have pumped him for. If he wasn't, well, sorry for the bump on the head old chap, off you go. But no, they tapped him five times, and an innocent man dies. That is wrong.

Let me ask you, are you a light skinned, light haired person? Is that how you can be so cavalier about this, for you know that you personally aren't in danger from these sorts of abuses? You should go talk to some of your dark-skinned friends, and find out how they feel. I'm sure that both here and in Britian, the people with dark skin saw this for what it was, and now live in even more fear of the police.

[IndianaGreen]

32. It looks like the late Frank Rizzo is running the British police

Shoot them darkies!

:grr:

[Behind the Aegis]

20. Very sad.

It is a shame an innocent man died. But, consider that two terrorist attacks took place in two weeks and one can imagine the police are "on edge." The terrorist attacks have scared them.

[magellan]

25. These are trained marksmen, not average British cops

The usual British police do not carry guns. Instead, each constabulary has a special force of highly skilled marksmen who receive a considerable amount of training in how and when to use their weapons. The plains-clothed police who shot this man to death on the ground were more likely following orders than suffering from nerves.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. I understand that.

I know that Bobbies don't carry guns as a norm. I am just saying that they were worried about what could happen because of the two previous terrorist attacks.

[magellan]

30. So jumping on a guy you think is wearing explosives is a good idea?

And while two of you are on top of him, you unload five bullets into his head? When does the safety of the public and reasonable doubt come into play?

After the bomb has detonated beneath you...after the innocent electrician is dead...is too late.

[Behind the Aegis]

33. I didn't say that.

I didn't say that they did a smart thing, I said that with the recent attacks it is understandable that they over-reacted.

[magellan]

40. And again I contend that over-reaction is not the cause

From a 17 July article in the London Sunday Times titled Police snipers track al-Qaeda suspects:

The covert armed units are under orders to shoot to kill if surveillance suggests that a terror suspect is carrying a bomb and he refuses to surrender if challenged.

This wasn't over-reaction by the police -- it was what they were ordered to do. Whoever gave that order is at fault. Black & white thinking does not hold up well to the complexity of the real world. Once more it has cost an innocent person his life.

[Behind the Aegis]

42. What is the cause?

I say it is because SY is 'on-edge' because of two terrorist attacks in two weeks.

[magellan]

48. You can say what you like

The Sunday Times says different.

[Behind the Aegis]

53. Same thing

The were ordered to do what they did because of the terrorist attacks.

[U4ikLefty]

54. So you think it was understandable for them to order the

execution of someone caught running from plain-clothes police?

[Behind the Aegis]

55. I didn't say that.

I think it is understandable that after two attacks that they might overreact.

[magellan]

56. Almost. It goes to responsibility

You say the cops over-reacted, I say their orders were an over-reaction. It's like the difference between busting a few soldiers for torturing detainees and busting the people higher up the chain of command who formulated and ordered those abuses.

Either way, it led to the same dismal end for this poor fellow. But I don't blame those cops as much as the superior who gave them the order to shoot to kill suspects in non-compliance.

[Behind the Aegis]

58. Perhaps.

Two terrorist attacks makes people nuts. And, it is sad he died, but given everything that has recently happened, it is understandable.

[LynnTheDem]

79. Three letters;

I.R.A.

UK has dealt with thouands of terrorist attacks over decades; bullshit they were just "over-reacting".

[Tom Bombadil]

84. IRA terrorism is very different

to what we face today.

1. IRA didn't suicide bomb
2. IRA didn't attempt mass murder on the underground
3. IRA gave warnings about bombs

Situation in London today is unprecedented.

[Liberal In Texas]

59. This has nothing to do with either Gtmo or Abu Greb...The guy ran, he

didn't stop when ordered to, he jumped a turnstile, and boarded a train. He killed himself. End of argument.

[magellan]

65. Hopeless.

End of argument.

[TreasonousBastard]

36. I missed that they were plain-clothes...

and I guess if a bunch of guys in jeans or whatever was running after you yelling, you might just want to scoot out of there.

I probably would.

[Liberal In Texas]

61. yes they were. But I'll bet you woldn't do it with all the high security

and tube bombings in 2 weeks. Nope. If it's me, I say "Got me hands up and check anything you want to go though." This guy was an idiot, and caused his own death.

[U4ikLefty]

64. I wish you would stop saying "he caused his own death"

The pepole who sat on top of him and shot him in the head caused his death. And calling an innocent dead man "an idiot" is pretty hard-hearted.

[Disturbed]

27. He could have had a bomb but...

was it not possible for the police to grab his arms so that he could not get to the trigger? Do we know if he understood English? did he know that the people chasing him were the police? They were not in police garb, right? Instead of judging the situation right now I feel it would be best to have actual answers to questions.

[Behind the Aegis]

31. Great questions!

But, considering the recent attacks, I am sure they were not in the questioning mode. They just acted. And, because they did, an innocent died.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. They need a deep review of proceduire involving the use

of deadly force

Moreover this was not the bobies, but scotland yard, which never wears uniforms...

Look folks I have been in situations where the cops have a second to decide, and no I am not defending the cops. Why he ran? The police in brazil is infamous even if Scottland Yard identified themselves.

A man died, but the reality is, procedure is usually written in blood.

I just hope they learn from this. Otherwise his death will be in vain

[Swamp Rat]

37. Good point about the police in Brasil n/t

[Liberal In Texas]

43. Yes. He may have had joint in his pocket and panicked. But to run

and jump a turnstile and get on a train...absolubly stupid.

He is responsible for his own death.

[Liberal In Texas]

52. I've got a queston...Why this pic? What doe it have to do with theLondon

stuff?

[baby_mouse]

89. Apparently he did speak English

And apparently the police identified themselves, alhtough whether this wsa before or after the initial challenge is info I don't know yet.

Grabbing his arms... well what it the trigger was in his palm?

We're asking a lot of the police here. There seems to be quite a lot for them to juggle.

[bpilgrim]

102. should we put that on your tombstone

or his?

IF the police can take you out if they THINK you r a terrorist, only, we are in BIG trouble my friend... all of us.

everyone here understands that the police are under a great deal of stress but that doesn't justify shoot-to-kill orders on only a HUNCH and if officers are gonna risk sitting on top of a BOMB they must not then shoot until they are certain, could be dangerous for all if there is a dead-man switch.

we need clear & safe ROE but in the POLICE STATE spreading across the world - as UBL predicted - i doubt there'll be much support for that by the neoCONs on either side of the pond.

:nuke:

but i'm sure there will be plenty of support for clear ROE on DU :bounce:

:hi:

peace

[Behind the Aegis]

103. I didn't justify...only offered an explanation.

[Rex]

44. Men are abducted by our government and flown around the world

to be tortured in secrecy. All physical evidence to 911 is destroyed rather quickly. Patriot act is now permanent, our soldiers know how to fight urban warfare so they will be a use to Bush here at home.

I don't know what the hell is going on in London, but I bet it is far more sinister than our enemies the terrorists.

[Liberal In Texas]

49. Boy...I was going to rebut..rebut..but I can't.

Good post.

[rman]

60. that's the paradigm of preventation at work

aka precautionary principle

"In essence, the precautionary principle says that not having the evidence that something might be a problem is not a reason for not taking action as if it were a problem."

"...once you start imagining what could happen, then—then there’s no limit. What if they had access to it? What if they could effectively deploy it? What if we weren’t prepared?
What it is is a shift from the scientific, “what is” evidence-based decision making to this speculative, imaginary, “what if”-based, worst case scenario."

"The American attorney general explained this shift to what he called the “paradigm of prevention.”

ASHCROFT: "We had to make a shift in the way we thought about things, so being reactive, waiting for a crime to be committed, or waiting for there to be evidence of the commission of a crime didn’t seem to us to be an appropriate way to protect the American people."


See "The power of nightmares"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3755686.stm

[rman]

62. Imagine the guy actually had explosives strapped to his body

How stupid is it then to shoot him at point blank range?
As someone else put it: were they trying to make him detonate?

[Liberal In Texas]

66. No, they shot him in the head.

There's a post above where I go through that, but there is a 50/50 chance that the detonator is not going to go off. But only 50/50. Those cops were brave, they landeded on him and made sure if an explosion happened, it would take them out more than the innocent tube riders.

A head shot is how you make sure the "bomber" is taken out. Unfortunately, he wasn't a bomber...but if he had been??? They would be getting knighted or something.

The man was a fool. He caused his own death.

[Violet_Crumble]

76. That's got to be one of the most callous comments I've seen for a while...

I'm not British or American, and I'm not going to get into any argument over what should have happened, but to call that man a fool who caused his own death shows a remarkable lack of compassion for him and his family. When I first heard that they'd shot an innocent man, I thought he's every bit as much a victim of terrorism as those who died two weeks ago. But no. Now I learn he's just a fool who's to blame for his own death. Sorry, but you have no idea as to why he ran, and it's that lack of knowledge that would restrain me from making hot-headed and judgemental comments if I was that way inclined. There are a multitude of completely innocent reasons why he possibly didn't stop, including maybe not being an English speaker, mental illness, being wanted by the police for other matters, or being scared of police because the police in Brazil aren't quite as trustworthy as British police...

Violet...

[LisaL]

83. Or simply didn't know those men were the police.

They were in plain clothes, and they were chasing him.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

67. This is going to be investigated to the ends of the earth.

Scotland Yard is not the US Army. The blame for this tragedy rests not only with the Metropolitan police, but with the idiot alliance of right-wing racists and football hooligans who've decided to pursue vigilante "justice" against brown-skinned people. If I were a muslim in this country, I would be very scared. There's no way to tell whether that plainclothes police officer is really a police officer, or just some racist nutjob with a gun.

This is only the beginning. This is going to get very, very ugly.

[Tom Bombadil]

90. It's really difficult to get hold of a gun in Britain.

As far as I know, only farmers and a tiny number of policemen are legally entitled to own one.

Of course there are criminals who possess guns, but armed racist nut jobs aren't generally seen running around London in broad daylight, chasing people into tube stations.

[anarchy1999]

68. Lynn, you say it all so well!

It was my first thought the other day when this young man was gunned down. It was a "mistake". Wow. What are we all in for?

Next day, New York, we check your bags randomly. You can refuse, if you do, you can't go forward.

Peace to us all.

Welcome to your new reality. The military state.

Give up your freedoms for security. Do you feel safe yet?

[Liberal In Texas]

70. This is my last post on this subject.

Our British DU members have quite a different view than many of the US posts that I've seen.

Yes, it was unfortunate. Yes, the cops may have over-reacted. But, my friends, if we had had 2 bombings in the subways of New York, or bombings on the freeways of LA in the last month, we'd be crying holy vengeance and wanting more cops to kill suspects. Yes we would.

The Underground is pretty much the life blood of London. If terrorists try to fuck that up, the people will be really pissed off. They, as we would, tolerate extreme action to keep the "tube" running. The subway or freeway going.

Is this good? Nope. We surrender freedom and rights to "be safe".

It's not good. And in that vein, the terrorist have won.

God help us.

[rman]

73. would you rather be safely in prison,

or take your chances running free?

as you say:
"We surrender freedom and rights to "be safe".
It's not good. And in that vein, the terrorist have won."

I agree completely. Our 'leaders' will not win the war on terror, rather they are helping the terrorists win.

[EFerrari]

71. Oh, Lynn, we have to stop this.

I knew this was bullshit. If he was ticking, shooting him was stupid. If he knew something, shooting him was stupid. If he wasn't ticking and he didn't know anything, shooting him was criminal.

God help us all.

[Q]

80. Indeed the terrorists HAVE won...

...and Bush/Blair get their perpetual war and state of fear. The Neocons were looking for something, anything to replace the cold war...which was so good for Friends of Bush. They found the answer in 9-11.

The bitter irony is that those responsible for 9-11 are still at large and there have been more innocents killed in this phony war than terrorists.

[90-percent]

82. For future reference

When do you run from cops and when do you stop and surrender?

How do you surrender in such a way as to not get shot by cops?

-85%

[LisaL]

91. You know what would be helpful in that decision?

If you knew the people after you were cops. These guys were in plain clothes, not in uniforms. How would he know they were cops?

[muriel_volestrangler]

95. If they said 'police!'

which they are meant to do. If they didn't, then they will be in big trouble. I think a lot will depend on exactly how they challenged him, and what his initial reaction was.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lars39]

97. And his death probably won't be the last.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4712061.stm

<snip>He said the death of Jean Charles de Menezes was a "tragedy", but admitted more people could be shot as police hunt suspected suicide bomb
<snip>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:puke:

[ikri]

99. I'm sorry an innocent man died

However,

A man wearing a winter coat in July is seen exiting a house that's under police surveillance because they believe that it belongs to a terror suspect.

He enters a tube station at which time the police attempt to stop him

You can now either believe that the police shouted one of two lines:

"Excuse me old chap, but would you mind awfully standing still"
Or
"Armed police. Stop"

He then vaults over a ticket barrier and starts to run toward a train.

This is less than 24 hours after 4 would-be bombers failed to detonate bombs on the same tube system.

The police were faced with a choice:-
Either he's a suicide bomber, and as he's acting strangely and has been seen leaving a terror suspect's house they have good reason for this belief.
Or
He's just in a hurry to get to work and they should let him go.

And to everyone who has said that they wouldn't shoot a white guy - garbage. One of the original bombers was NOT asian, he was west indian. I believe that given the same circumstances they would have shot ANYONE acting in the same manner.

The police acted correctly in this situation.

[Karenina]

101. HOWEVER

"A man wearing a winter coat in July is seen exiting a house that's under police surveillance because they believe that it belongs to a terror suspect."

I'm ALWAYS covered up as my skin is light sensitive. Many of us transplants to Northern Europe find it COLD when the natives are in tank tops. Not a "house" but an APARTMENT COMPLEX with MANY residents.

"He enters a tube station at which time the police attempt to stop him"

Why not when he exited the "house" or took the bus to the Tube?

"You can now either believe that the police shouted one of two lines:
"Excuse me old chap, but would you mind awfully standing still"
Or "Armed police. Stop"

HATE CRIMES UP 500%. White guys following you. You're from San Paulo.

"He then vaults over a ticket barrier and starts to run toward a train."

GUESS WHAT? He was the proud owner of a TRAIN PASS and may have reckoned his safety depended on being in a crowd.

"This is less than 24 hours after 4 would-be bombers failed to detonate bombs on the same tube system."

Yes this BRAZILIAN should have KNOWN he would be suspect.

"The police were faced with a choice:-
Either he's a suicide bomber, and as he's acting strangely and has been seen leaving a terror suspect's house they have good reason for this belief.
Or
He's just in a hurry to get to work and they should let him go."

THEY were the ones acting strangely. This SWAT team is ill-trained if they cannot SEE the difference between a South American and an "Asian." Go look at a few pictures. Oh, never mind, you're OBVIOUSLY white and such nuances as hair texture and body language would elude you. If it's BROWN, SHOOT IT!!!! :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

RACISM IS, in fact, the default template in the operating system. The *BFEE has pulled the pin on the grenade...

[ikri]

104. The victim's race will not have been an issue with the police

His behavior was the issue.

You chose not to bother including the part where I pointed out that ANYONE, white/black/orange with purple spots, acting as he did would have been treated in the same way.

Where have you read it that he exited an apartment complex? The BBC are still reporting that he left a house that was under surveillance. I'm not accusing you of making false claims, its just that I've not seen that mentioned in any news report.

Owning a train pass doesn't allow you to vault the barriers. You still need to feed that pass through a machine or show it to a station guard - something the victim didn't do in this situation.

Its my personal belied that the ultimate aim of these attacks is to provoke the far-right here in the UK to attacking Muslims, thereby making even the most moderate of Muslim fearful and open the doorway to a race war. Making everyone fear their own neighbours will cause more damage to the UK than any number of bombs ever could.

[Karenina]

108. THEIR lack of training is the issue.

"You chose not to bother including the part where I pointed out that ANYONE, white/black/orange with purple spots, acting as he did would have been treated in the same way."

They were looking for an Ay-rab and EXECUTED a Brazilian. Never mind. All them ever slightly darker folks is "THEM." Please stay OUT of the tanning salons, YOU could be next.

Being white and NEVER having been subjected to the assumptions projected onto people of "colour" would, of course, make you an expert on such nuances. I CALL BULLSHIT.

HOWEVER, we DO essentially agree:

"...the ultimate aim of these attacks is to provoke the far-right here in the UK to attacking Muslims, thereby making even the most moderate of Muslim fearful and open the doorway to a race war. Making everyone fear their own neighbours will cause more damage to the UK than any number of bombs ever could."

May the Goddess help us all! :hug:

[John Doe II]

105. Key points

The victim was completely defenceless. Why not tell him not to move OTHERWISE one would should. Then one could check out if he wears a bomb.
Why did the police follow him from his appartement TOWARDS the tube station? Why didn't they stop him at once? Why risk the life of many people?
Does anybody know btw if we know WHO the guys were that shot him? Everybody simply talks of police but they were not in uniform and carrying weapons. So it's not evident that theses guys were from the police. Anybody has closer information on that?

[Disturbed]

106. Israel has specially trained people to deal with ..

possible suicide bombers. Shooting them in the head is the extreme last option. They are trained in how to restrain a suspect, pinning the arms. I saw this on TV. It seems that the UK team hasn't been trained properly.
Trying to judge this situation is difficult when many facts are not available. It was tragic. I hope this does not happen again.

[CityZen-X]

107. Paranoia Will Destroy Ya!

It's no wonder now why Bobbie's do not bare arms. Except for this individual that must have been trained by the Philadelphia Police!

[Freddie Stubbs]

110. I guess people in the UK

will likely think twice before running away from the police.

[Bridget Burke]

111. What if he had NOT been innocent?

What if he had knowledge about other suicide bombings? Would killing him after he had been restrained be the best response? Would he not have been a valuable source of information?

He was lying on the ground & they shot him multiple times in the head. That awkward fact will not go away.