London Police are "sorry"

[AuntieM1957]

From the BBC newspage


Police chief 'sorry' over death
Met Police chief Sir Ian Blair has apologised to the family of the Brazilian man shot dead by police in south London on Friday.
He said the death of Jean Charles de Menezes was a "tragedy", but admitted more people could be shot as police hunt suspected suicide bombers.

The 27-year-old electrician's family condemned the shooting and said there was no reason to suspect him.

Jack Straw said he "deeply regretted" the killing but defended the police.

Mr Menezes, who lived in Tulse Hill, south London, was completely unconnected to Thursday's attempted bombings on three Tube trains and a bus, Scotland Yard have confirmed.

more...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

[seabeyond]

1. do we have any of the story, why the man ran. why he was wearing

an overcoat. i had someone defending the cops. i figure the whole story isnt being told

[AuntieM1957]

4. When he was shot he was lying prone on the floor

Did they really need to fire 5 shots - to kill?

Even if he had been involved in the attacks, was that truly necessary?

If you think it was, please reconsider.

What type of world do we want to create together? Is this it?

No, the British haven't said why he "ran". Or why he was wearing an overcoat.

Kind of gives a whole new spin on the "fashion police", doesn't it?

[Beaver Tail]

14. How about this

Why did he run

Language barrier maybe? Add in he probably didn’t know it was the police chasing him seeing they were NOT in uniform

Official Language of Brazil: Portuguese
Official Language of England: English


Why was he wearing an overcoat

Temperature of Brazil in July - Rio de Janeiro (Cold season): Low: 65 High 79
Temperature of England in July - London Average (Warm Season)- 62 F

Maybe he was... I don't know.... FUCKING COLD!!!???

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

22. Language barrier maybe?

False. His family says he spoke excellent English.

Add in he probably didn’t know it was the police chasing him seeing they were NOT in uniform

Yeah, he probably freaked out. Only explanation that makes any sense to me.

Official Language of Brazil: Portuguese
Official Language of England: English

And nobody ever learns English...

Why was he wearing an overcoat

It was plenty warm here yesterday. Not that it matters.

[Art_from_Ark]

98. "Speaking excellent English"

does not necessarily mean that one is acclimated to the local brand of English, or the English that is used by various groups, such as undercover police, or English that is shouted amidst a din of normal city noise. "Speaking excellent English" could mean that the victim has passed a local English test/course in Brazil, but it does not necessarily mean that he was able to perfectly understand the local vernacular. As a native English speaker in Japan, I have seen this type of language barrier from both sides.

[blurp]

101. Temperature was 72F, not 62F.

[Frederik]

5. According to his relatives

His experiences in the slum of Sao Paolo probably made him suspicious of people wielding guns. And, to a Brazilian, English wheather is not warm, even in the summer, which would explain the bomber jacket (no pun intended, he apparently was wearing a bomber jacket).

[Benbow]

33. What's that HSBC ad - we never forget the importance of local customs

It could save your life - and not just in London.

[Art_from_Ark]

99. So the local custom in London is, if a bunch of men in street clothes

start chasing you with guns, you are to immediately assume they're police officers and acquiesce, even if you have done nothing wrong? And when you do acquiesce, they'll pump 5 bullets in your brain anyway?

[Pobeka]

7. Ask yourself *what* this man was thinking...

From the BBC link:

1: Jean Charles de Menezes leaves a house under surveillance and arrives at Stockwell station
2: Witnesses say he vaults the automatic ticket barriers and heads for the platforms
3: He then ran down an escalator after being approached by up to 20 plain-clothed police officers and tried to board a train
4: He apparently refuses to obey police instructions and after running onto a northbound Northern line train, he is shot dead
--

This guy was either a real terrorist testing the system, on drugs, trying to have a "police aided" suicide, knowingly irresponsible with his behaviour, or completely out of touch with the 7/7 bombings and how to respond to a police presence.

[Pobeka]

12. If plain clothes police had chased him from his apartment the whole way -

-- then that would shed a completely different light on this, and I could see why he jumped the ticket barrier etc, and why the police over-reacted.

[Frederik]

65. That's what happened

Whether he was aware of them all the way from his appartment is another question.

[Frederik]

64. My guess is

1. He didn't know the building was under surveillance. Obviously, the surveillance was covert, or it would have been pointless.

2. He didn't know the gun-wielding brutes chasing him were police officers. One of his relatives said his experiences growing up in the slum in Sao Paolo had taught him to distrust people wielding guns.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. NY Times report today

said that the cops were staking out the fellows apartment, and when he emerged, they started chasing him. Note, please, that these guys weren't in uniform. I don't know about the coat or why he wore it-maybe something to do with his job.

His reaction was natural to run-wouldn't you? Once in the 70s, my husband was driving down the interstate when a car pulled up alongside. A guy with flowing long hair and dark glasses motioned for him to pull over. He ignored the fellow until said person drew out a gun. My husband floored it, and raced down the freeway until he saw a state trooper who had pulled someone over for speeding. He locked the brakes, got over to the side, and ran to the cop, telling him what happened. State trooper pulled the suspect car over-only to find it was undercover narcs. My husband could have pressed charges, but, in his words, "I wasn't THAT stupid".

[LisaL]

10. Seems like everybody in London is wearing coats.

Cnn had a picture of fellow Londoners standing at the station where this guy was shot to death. Half of them are wearing coats, jackets, etc.

[seabeyond]

37. ah, thanks for this observation n/t

[seabeyond]

16. run from the cops today, no i wouldnt

going back to the seventies, i'z being chased by police, out ran them too. two cars. i was pretty sure even if they did get me i wouldnt die. i could bet i wouldnt be hurt either.

now a days, nope

[Modem Butterfly]

29. It was 60 degrees. He was from Brazil

He was probably cold.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Modem Butterfly]

39. He was pinned to the ground when he was shot at point-blank range...

...in the head.

[Benbow]

46. because he behaved like a potential suicide bomber

If that puts all potential suicide bombers on notice, I am cool with that.

[Frederik]

66. Would you be cool with that

if it were you that had been executed? Say three suspicious-looking maniacs wielding gun started chasing you, and you instinctively started running, would you be okey with being forced to the ground and executed? I'm sure you would, you seem to be a brave young lad.

[Guaranteed]

34. Doesn't matter why he ran. Who knows why he was wearing a coat.

People wear coats. If running and wearing a coat is all they had...

The police were ridiculously overzealous, and they shot an innocent man without legitimate reason to believe that he was a serious danger to the community.

[seabeyond]

38. not to validate murder since i oppose it. i think you are being

limited in your thinking. which is cool. it is yours to do. but. i disagree with some of your analysis

[Guaranteed]

40. If you are going to kill someone, point blank, you need to KNOW

that they have at least what looks like a bomb.

That's not limited thinking. That's having the correct, high standard for the use of deadly force.

Running and wearing a coat does not meet that standard.

[Benbow]

47. No you don't - it is about what a "reasonable person" would think

[Guaranteed]

50. Of an ACTUAL threat, you mean.

Not an imagined one.

[AuntieM1957]

61. Thanks for your sanity

I truly needed to know that someone else agrees that we must guard against becoming what the terrorists are trying to convince the world we are.

If we allow our law enforcement and governors to restrict our freedoms willingly, the battle is truly over.

[seabeyond]

62. dont be condescending please. you wont find a single person as

dogmatic as i am about personal rights and the obligation to stand up for that right, to be treated humanely. i also dont like made up stories, for agenda, half truths, and limited thinking, even if i fully agree with a conclusion. even with my question, it is not a statement anywhere, me condoning the action of police. your comment in essence is saying exactly that. for agenda. bullshit. see, wink, i willingly stand up for my right, to call bullshit.

hey i hear ya. i want the story, as clearly as we can, without saying something stupid in the future, because i dont have information

[AuntieM1957]

74. You seem to infer whatever you wish to whatever someone

has to say.

So read my mind, now, please.

BTW, I don't believe in ESP, either.

[ck4829]

2. Terrorism has won in the UK

No offense to anyone living there, but it is true.

"He said the death of Jean Charles de Menezes was a "tragedy", but admitted more people could be shot as police hunt suspected suicide bombers."

Who will be the next person to die and by whose hands, terrorists or the police?

[AuntieM1957]

3. When the official death count for 7/7/2005 is set

I believe it should include Jean Charles de Menezes.

The very minimum the British owe his family and Brazil.

[Benbow]

17. That's illogical - he died on 22 July

But I agree, Menezes' death is the fault of the terrorists. And I owe him and his family nothing but ordinary human compassion.

[LisaL]

6. Could be anyone. Obviously with the police able to shoot people

based on suspicion alone, anyone could be next.

[Benbow]

25. No, not based on suspicion alone - it has to do with what a

"reasonable person" would think. That is UK law. It is in the US that the police - and everyone else - can shoot people on suspicion.

[Guaranteed]

58. No, that's the same law as here.

There are caveats, though- the police have to be able to articulate real facts as to why the person was a threat. They can't just speculate.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

18. That line shocked me. "more people could be shot" Sounds like "will be"

to me. MKJ

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

63. ????

MKJ

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

24. This is such nonsense.

If you can provide me with any other way in which you'd prefer the police deal with potential suicide bombers, I'd like to hear it.

[Benbow]

Me too, I'm all ears

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

35. Don't hold your breath.

I've asked this question at least six or seven times today in different threads. I never get a real answer. I always get some version of "Killing innocent people is WRONG!"

Well, duh.

[Horse with no Name]

45. I guess the argument could be made

That as long as myself or one of my family members is not the "wrongly" suspected potential suicide bomber--it's okay to shoot all the others.:eyes:

[Frederik]

68. Potential sucide bombers

meaning South Americans wearing jackets.

[noiretextatique]

100. he wans't a suicide bomber, or a potential one

not that it makes any difference now.

[Gyre]

8. People, the point is

that the victim was down, and they were on top of him at the time they shot him. THAT is an execution and is completely illegal, even in Britain. There can be no good excuse for that conduct. Not even the "war on terra".

Gyre

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. absolutely right

I remember being here at DU as this was happening. Some people said that by sitting on him and killing him, he wouldn't detonate his bomb (at that time it was assumed he was a bomber). MY comment was if this were a suicide bomber, the LAST place I'd want to be would be on top of him! This was an execution, plain and simple.

There's still controversy in Britain over whether or not police should even HAVE guns. Times article today indicated that cops who shoot first and think later can and ARE prosecuted.

[Benbow]

23. Absolutely wrong

You yourself might not want to be on top of a suicide bomber but then you are not employed and trained as a policeman to protect your fellow citizens. It was not an execution. He was a very brave policeman who had to make a decision based on the facts available. I support his decision to the hilt.

No, there is no controversy in the UK about whether or not police should have guns. Yes, after an incident like this, the policeman can be prosecuted but it is all about whether or not a reasonable person would think that the Brazilian had a bomb on him. And, for reasons known only to him, the Brazilian behaved as if he had something to hide.

[Benbow]

19. You are in deep, deep denial about this

A bomber who is on the ground can still detonate his bomb, just by touching his thumb to his little finger (both on the same hand). He behaved in a way that was very stupid, given the heightened security situation in London, and within about one second the police had to decide - on the information available to them at the time - whether or not this was a situation in which one person had to be killed to save 200 people.

I am sorry that he is dead but he had a choice, and he chose his destiny.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Benbow]

78. You appear to be a fatalist, I am not - I believe in free will

[Frederik]

84. That's the most ridiculous thing

I've heard so far this afternoon.

[Lannes]

13. Sorry,but the policy stays the same....

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jul/24ukblast1.htm

"The British police on Sunday accepted 'full responsibility' for shooting a Brazilian who turned out to be totally unconnected to the July 21 London blasts, but said they will have to shoot suicide bombing suspects in the head to prevent them from detonating explosives.

"There is no point in shooting somebody's chest because that's where the bomb is likely to be. There is no point in shooting anywhere else because if they fall down they detonate it. This is drawn on the experience from other countries including Sri Lanka," London's Police Chief Ian Blair said about the way Jean Charles de Menezes was killed on Friday in South London's Stockwell underground station."

[DanCa]

15. The media is still partly to blame

Fear sells and the way they have been pumping this stuff into people for 24/7 they are turning everyone into adrenaline junkies. Hopefully faux and cnn will learn from this tradgedy and start to report news as fact not entertainment. okay am a dreamer.

[Benbow]

20. No, the media in the UK are not to blame - I cannot speak for the US media

You are horribly misconstruing everything about what it is like to have suicide bombers on the loose in London.

[DanCa]

26. ah

I am talking about the us media your right about the London press.
I dont mean to belittle your situation. I am sorry if your taking my offense to my post.

[Benbow]

31. OK

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

28. People on DU don't seem to understand that for a lot of us...

...this is a very real thing. One of my friends knew someone who was killed in the first round of bombings. I go through King's Cross pretty frequently. I hear a lot of ranting and gnashing of teeth on here about the behavior of the police, but I don't here one damn person offering an alternative solution. It's easy to sit in front of your computer and pass judgement on people if you're not directly threatened.

[Benbow]

30. Yes, for us it is real - for some US DUers it is just another tv series

[Guaranteed]

53. It's so real for you, yet you don't seem to realize that that could have

been you getting chased and shot for no reason.

[Benbow]

79. Er, no it couldn't

[Karenina]

85. Because your skin is white?

Just asking. :shrug:

[Benbow]

89. No, because I am a woman in her 50s (5'5") with an upper-class accent

[Karenina]

91. Well, isn't that just so special!

GOOD FOR YOU!!!

[AuntieM1957]

57. I'm surprised that you see this as a US vs. GB issue

to me it's a global issue.

by using the BBC headline "London Police" I certainly did not mean to imply that I feel the London Police are alone in this.

All the world is impacted by these attacks, and all the world must deal with the tendency to over-react.

And we have all lost friends and family to the terrorists. Living in a state where concealed handguns are legal - I am tremendously concerned about the propensity to violence that I see developing in our GLOBAL society.

It's not about this incident - it's about the future and how we want to be. The time to consider is before the shot is fired.

[Benbow]

80. No, the time to consider was before the US invaded Iraq

[Frederik]

70. Oh, it's for you it's a TV series, Benbow

The tough-but-fair coppers chasing the criminals.

[Benbow]

81. Nope - have not watched tv for over a month, not once

[DanCa]

41. Well that's kinda been my point

I have a hard time articulating things in type. The way the united states is portraying everything is as entertainment. I was trying to make some kind of social behavioral connection between the way the news media covers events and on how people respond to them. In short the press makes matters worse than they truly are.

I am truly sorry if i put my foot in my mouth and offended anyone. I hope that were cool on this and if you need further input let me know and ill pm you guys. Please try to have a gentle and peaceful weekend you guys deserve it.
Danny.

[Benbow]

42. I just wish that DUers would wait for the outcome of the investigations

If we can, you can.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Benbow]

49. I am only trying to head off the worst of the tin-hatters and

ambulance-chasers.

[jim3775]

55. Well, calling the victim a crack dealer...

and calling anyone who disagrees with you a republican is no way to go about it.

[Frederik]

71. "the worst tin-hatters"

That would be the ones who object to public executions, would it?

[DanCa]

52. welcome to du Ben

I promise you that I wont post anymore on the london attacks. That's the best I can do :) Hope we can be friends :)

[Benbow]

77. Thanks - plenty of other things to talk about :-)

[lumpy]

94. Good, thanks ladies.

Take a break. Tired of hearing that we in the US are not aware of how it is in London. Tired that we on DU don't know what's going on and, in other words, have our heads up you-know-where. Being attacked for having 'empathy' for the young man that was accosted and shot five times in the head because he 'looked like' a terrorist. Tired of hearing that we don't know what it is like to be attacked. Yeah, give us a break. Nothing of value has been added to this conversation, just negativity for DUers opinions.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

44. Nah, it's cool.

Everybody just needs to relax. You should see some of the horribly offensive shit in some of the other threads. I'm currently debating someone who is intent on comparing the Metropolitan Police to Nazis at Nuremberg.

[DanCa]

56. Thats horrible

You know the police never have it easy. It's one of the darned if we do darned if we dont situations. Well I promised Ben and I promised you I wont post on London any more until the facts are out. Just Hang loose keep cool and stay safe. Ill say a prayer for you guys.

[lumpy]

93. Good

x

[Guaranteed]

54. There has to be a better alternative than shooting innocent people

without any known threat.

[Frederik]

72. Yeah

I'm sure it wasn't "the real thing" for the Brazilian who got shot. What an incredibly condescending attitude. It does appear that the police made a huge mistake here. An "alternative solution": there must have been a reason why this guy started running from the police. It is reasonable to believe that his behaviour was related to the manner in which the police approached him. You apparently don't think questions should be raised about this, which I find to be an interesting attitude.

"It's easy to sit in front of your computer and pass judgement on people if you're not directly threatened."

Right back atcha. I'm guessing you're not brown-skinned, so you probably don't have to fear being shot by the police.

[LisaL]

76. Do tell us, what did police accomplish by shooting this guy?

Did they stop a suicide bombing? No.
They killed an innocent man, and if they are allowed to shoot and kill people on suspicion alone, I am sure they will kill a lot more innocent men.

[Benbow]

82. I am sure that potential suicide bombers have taken note

As have the rest of us.

[Frederik]

86. "Potential suicide bombers"

are planning to KILL THEMSELVES. They don't CARE if the police are going to kill them or not. They will just make sure they blow themselves up before the police have a chance to shoot them.

[Karenina]

87. As has ANYONE whose skin

is a tad darker than that which racists would assume is Caucasian (you DO realize the Dalits ALSO come under that category). I do expect the tanning salon chains will be going OUT of business quite soon.

If you are Greek, Southern Italian, a German whose just been on vacation off the coast of Spain, or bi-racial, one false move in Britain could earn you 5 bullets in the face. SUPERB!

The Irish can spot a Catholic from a Protestant at 50 paces. My neighborhood has had a major influx of Africans in the last 2 years- I've NEVER been mistaken for African by them. I'd better stop here.

[lumpy]

96. Thought we were going to change the subject.

Ok, got it, the killing of the Brazilian will be an example case to other 'potential terrorists' and anyone else who dares to defy the loose zealots with the guns.

[lumpy]

92. It was a very real thing for people

in the US when the towers and Pentagon was attacked. Some of us knew people who were killed in those attacks. It was very real to innocent ethnic mid-east people in this country whose property was appropriated and taken into custody without charge because of the attacks and the fact they descended from a 'different' culture. Yes, it is easy to pass judgment. The alternative solution is to refrain from using brutal methods commonly used in mid-east countries who's people are immune to strong-arm tactics and live with death every day of their lives. If we become nations innured to this sort of irresponsible taking of life, we will lose the freedom to live without fear of authority.

[Chicago Democrat]

21. That's a start... Now pull out of Iraq!

We lost. Accept it. Leave tommorrow.

[jzodda]

36. The terrorists are having an effect :(

and that makes me sad. They would see things such as the shooting as a victory for fear.

The man who was shot seemed to be involved in a perfect storm of bad luck. Living in the building with the terrorists, wearing a baggy clothes, running like he did.

What I do not get is why he did not stop when told to stop? Maybe we will never know but it does not make any sense to me. Fear makes people do things that are hard to understand.

[Benbow]

43. And the US atrocities in Iraq are having an effect that is far worse

[AuntieM1957]

59. Do you really expect anyone here to disagree with THAT? N/T

[Horse with no Name]

60. I think that is something we can all agree on

Our "common ground", so to speak.
We all know it is the cause of what is going on...which is why we don't like it.

[Frederik]

73. He probably didn't realize

he was being chased by the police. I saw some of the members of this anti-terror squad on CNN, they look like football hooligans. With the threat of hate crimes looming, I'd say he had reason to be afraid.

[LisaL]

75. The police were in plain clothes. If you are walking alone,

and some guys with guns tell you to stop, what are you going to do?
Baggy clothes-well, if that is a crime, then police could shot half the London dead. A lot of Londoners are wearing coats, leather jackets, etc.

[lumpy]

97. Maybe the Brazilian didn't stop because

he didn't know who in the hell was chasing after him, you suppose? People who have lived in suppressive societies have a tendency to be apprehensive about his sort of thing. Very reckless on the part of the cops. No small thing to be shot in the head, rather fatal I'd say.

[gulliver]

67. It's essentially Bush's fault, then Blair's.

Bush started the avalanche by steering the War on Terror into the ditch with the Iraq invasion. Had a better leader been in place in the White House, the number of bombings and terrorist attacks worldwide would have gone down. 9/11 would have been a downward-turning point in terrorism instead of an upward-turning one.

Worst president in history. Biggest mistake in history.

[Benbow]

83. Can't argue with that

[MindPilot]

88. Police in london shoot and kill an innocent unarmed man

and it's international news. Police in (insert name of major American city here) and the response is "OK...so...what's for dinner?"

Just an observation.

[the_spectator]

90. Maybe this is all part of some cunning terrorism-mitigation strategy -

Met Police chief Sir Ian Blair ... said the death of Jean Charles de Menezes was a "tragedy", but admitted more people could be shot as police hunt suspected suicide bombers.

:rofl:
Maybe the idea here is to scare enough people away from using public transport in London, so that the NEXT time the terrorists successfully set off a bomb, relatively few people will get hurt! :silly:
I mean, would YOU want to "go down the Tube" anymore if the police have already shot one innocent, and admit they're ready to shoot more?

[Benbow]

95. "Now we are at war with death itself " - Janet Daley, 24 July 2005

It was probably bound to happen — if not now, then eventually. There is an all-out war on the streets and almost inevitably somebody was going to be killed by the authorities who was believed to be implicated but then turned out not to be. Given the peculiarly ruthless tactic of suicide bombing, who could take the risk of allowing someone who seemed to be a plausible suspect to ignite himself in a public place? Given that we are up against an enemy who states categorically that he “loves death” as opposed to the weak and decadent West which so pathetically clings to life, how could anyone dare to assume that the likely man who chooses to run to the London Underground rather than stop on order is blameless? The Metropolitan police say this shooting of an apparently innocent man in Stockwell is a “tragedy”, as indeed it is. But what would the scale of the tragedy have been if they had given him the benefit of the doubt and got it wrong? How many nanoseconds do you have in which to make the choice? And what, as a law enforcement officer, is the inescapable priority?

<snip>

This new global confrontation is far more volatile than the cold war ever was. Back then, when we lived with our fears of a nuclear holocaust, we were up against a global debate about the quality of life. Capitalism and communism were both products of the 18th-century enlightenment. They were locked in a disagreement about how it was best to live: which system was most likely to produce the greatest happiness for the greatest number. Back then we were all humanists of a sort who believed that life was worth living and the way that societies were governed was critical to the welfare of our fellow men. The battle of ideas got messy and scary when everybody got the sort of weapons that could have put an end to life of all kinds. But the fact that the weapons were never used was no coincidence: in the end, they valued life too much on both sides of the divide.

<snip>

Now we are at war with death itself and we cannot rely on that final rational decision to hold back from the brink. The man who ran on to the train at Stockwell station was caught in the hair’s-breadth of an inescapable moment: the moment that has no time for reflection or caution. Had he been what the police thought he was, any delay, any attempt at what we regard as reasonable doubt would have been a derogation of duty. Of course, the official independent inquiry that follows any such death will have to draw some clarity out of these hopelessly ambiguous circumstances.

<snip>

The terrorists have provided the irreducible axiom for this confrontation: “We love death; you love life.” What happened at Stockwell Tube station was a hideous mistake but one that was made in the name of protecting life. There can be no moral equivalence between that killing and the deliberate murder of innocents that was the object of the successful terrorist attack of July 7 and the mercifully unsuccessful one of July 21. Life — and the preciousness of it — is what this is all about. Somehow, we have to hold on to that.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-1706321,00.html

I don't usually agree with Janet Daley but this seems to say some important things. I have heard that people outside the UK cannot always access Times articles (you need to have cookies enabled) but I hope that you can see this one.