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Molly Ivins nails it -- the Court battle is about SO much more.

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Bleacher Creature Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 05:35 PM
Original message
Molly Ivins nails it -- the Court battle is about SO much more.
Edited on Sun Jul-24-05 05:38 PM by abernste
Look - I know that Roe v. Wade and all of the Separation of Chruch and State issues matter -- a lot. But we also need to look at the bigger picture because there is so much more that is at stake. And for anyone who ever wonders why corporate America has been so willing to endulge the fundies -- here you go.
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?columnsName=miv

MOLLY IVINS

RELEASE: THURSDAY, JULY 21, 2005, AND THEREAFTER

AUSTIN -- If you had done a poll in November 2000, or in November 2004, I don't think you would have gotten out of single digits with this proposition: "George W. Bush wants to radically revise American law, including complete repeal of the New Deal, and take us back to the economic legal system that prevailed at the turn of the 19th century -- Robber Barons Redux."

During the past five years, both media and political circles have devoted an enormous amount of attention to social issues and culture wars -- rise of the Christian Right, anti-abortion groups, our debates over moral decline and moral relativism, prayer in the schools, school vouchers, displaying the Ten Commandments, sex and violence in entertainment, bias in the news media, gay marriage and all the rest of it. I sometimes think all of it amounts to a bunch of people saying, "The world would be a much better place if everybody else thought exactly the same way I do." Reminds me of Dr. Henry Higgins in his famous philosophical disquisition, "Why Can't A Woman Be More Like A Man?" Higgins finally discovers the ultimate problem: "Why can't a woman be more like ME?"

<SNIP>

While we have been absorbed in the silly circus of cultural issues and the and riveting questions of the war, we've also been getting our pockets picked. Big time. I am impressed that cartoonist Lloyd Dangle in the strip "Troubletown" managed to get the whole problem into 12 panels, each announcing some piece of economic news accompanied by an American saying, essentially, "What, me worry?" The U.S. is over $7 trillion in debt (no problem); China buys $1 billion worth of U.S. treasury bills a day (thanks for floating us); Americans love the prices at Wal-Mart (made in China, cute!); the Chinese save 50 percent of their domestic product; the average American has $9,000 on his credit cards; our economy is fueled by a fragile housing bubble; the minimum wage is $5.15 per hour … ; taxpayers who earn over $1 million saved $30K under Bush tax cuts; the war in Iraq costs $9 billion a month; by 2040, our kids will be unable to do more than pay the interest on the national debt … ; bankruptcy reform makes it impossible to escape your debts; in Darfur , people earn $1.25 a day.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Judge John G Roberts write in dissent that the Endangered Species Act
is unconstitutional, unless the animals who will be destroyed by a development migrate between states.

In other words, Congress can't stop a developer from destroying animals who live on land in one state.

No such power under the Interstate Commerce Clause, according to Judge John G. Roberts.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. a lawyers technocrat for business interest - yep Justice worthy
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. elimination of social programs part of the xtian agenda - explaintion
The Despoiling of America: How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

excerpt:

Dominionism’s Theocratic Views

What would a “reconstructed” America look like under the Dominionists? K.L. Gentry, a Dominionist himself, suggests the following “elements of a theonomic approach to civic order,” which I strongly suggest should be compared to the Texas GOP platform of 2002, which reveals that we are not just talking about imaginary ideas but some things are already proposed on Republican agendas.<60> Dominionism’s concept of government according to Gentry is as follows:

“1. It obligates government to maintain just monetary policies ... fiat money, fractional reserve banking, and deficit spending.

“2. It provides a moral basis for elective government officials. ...

“3. It forbids undue, abusive taxation of the rich. ...

“4. It calls for the abolishing of the prison system and establishing a system of just restitution. ...

“5. A theonomic approach also forbids the release, pardoning, and paroling of murderers by requiring their execution. ...

“6. It forbids industrial pollution that destroys the value of property. ...

“7. It punishes malicious, frivolous malpractice suits. ...

“8. It forbids abortion rights. ... Abortion is not only a sin, but a crime, and, indeed, a capital crime.”<61>

The fourth item in Gentry’s list, “abolishing of the prison system and establishing a system of just restitution” has been worked on extensively by Dominionist Gary North, who holds a doctorate degree in history. North has written volumes of books, essays and articles, (many of which falsely predicted that the year 2000 computer problem would bring down modern civilization.) He is most famous among Dominionists for reconciling economic theory with Old Testament passages.

Gary North describes the ‘just restitution’ system of the bible, which happens to reinstitute slavery, like this:

“At the other end of the curve, the poor man who steals is eventually caught and sold into bondage under a successful person. His victim receives payment; he receives training; his buyer receives a stream of labor services. If the servant is successful and buys his way out of bondage, he re-enters society as a disciplined man, and presumably a self-disciplined man. He begins to accumulate wealth.”<62>

The Immorality of the Medicare and Medicaid Programs

If the blithe acceptance of slavery isn’t shocking enough, here is one of the coldest attitudes I ever heard expressed in an interview on American television. I can’t help reading it in light of the coercive bullying tactics resorted to by Dominionist leaders in the House of Representatives to get the necessary votes to pass the controversial new Medicare Prescription Drug law.<63> The following interview reveals the deep seated hatred Dominionists have against governmental medical assistance to the elderly. The interview was conducted on August 1, 1985 with Dr. Walter Williams, professor of economics at George Mason University and author of thirty-five books. Danuta Soderman was a co-host on Pat Robertson’s 700 Club. She began the interview with a question about Medicare and Medicaid fraud, suggesting cost possibly “millions and billions” of dollars:

Williams: “Well, I think that the abuse and fraud in and of itself is a relatively minor problem. That is, the bigger problem is the whole concept of funding somebody’s medical care by a third party. And I might also mention here, that is, I saw in the audience many older and senior citizens. Now whose responsibility is it to take care of those people? I think it lies with their children and it also lies with themselves. That is, I think Christians should recognize that charity is good. I mean charity, when you reach into your pocket to help your fellow man for medical care or for food or to give them housing. But what the government is doing in order to help these older citizens is not charity at all. It is theft. That is, the government is using power to confiscate property that belongs to one American and give, or confiscate their money, and provide services for another set of Americans to whom it does not belong. That is the moral question that Christians should face with not only Medicare, Medicaid. But many other programs as well….Well, people should have insurance. But I would say if our fellow man is found in need, does not have enough, well that’s a role for the church, that’s a role for the family, that’s a role for private institutions to take care of these things.”

Danuta Soderman: “I thought it was interesting you talked about Medicare and Medicaid as not being a moral issue. A lot of people would think that to want to eliminate the program is rather uncompassionate—that there is something immoral about taking away something that people are relying so heavily upon, but you said that there is no moral issue here.”

Williams: “I think the moral issue runs the other way. That is, we have to ask ourselves, ‘What is the moral basis of confiscating the property of one American and giving it to another American to whom it does not belong for whatever reason?’ That is, I think we Americans have to ask ourselves is there something that can justify a legalized theft? And I think that even if the person is starving in the street that act, in and of itself, doesn’t justify my taking money from somebody else.”

How to Destroy the Social Security Program

On August 14, 1985, Pat Robertson unveiled his ingenious program on how to get rid of Social Security. The plan amazingly resembles sections of the Bush Administration’s Medicare Prescription Drug bill passed in December of 2003. Robertson, however, outlined what to do twenty years ago as follows:

1. “We should say to all the elderly, ‘You’re going to be taken care of. The government’s going to pay you. Don’t worry about it. get your Social Security like you’re expecting, ‘cause you’re counting on it.”

2. “There should be a gradual moving of age to reflect the fact that we’re healthier and we live longer and people should have dignity and be allowed to work a little bit longer.”

3. “The last thing we should do is to begin to let the younger workers slowly but surely go into private programs where the money is tax sheltered and over the years build up their own money and that would in turn, through the intermediary organizations, banks, insurance companies, would invest in American industry. They would buy plants and equipment, put people to work and it would help a tremendous boom. Imagine …$100 billion dollars a year flowing into American industry. It would be marvelous.”

Wealth is a Sign of God’s Favor, Poverty is a Sign of God’s Disfavor

How did the Dominionists get so far from the Lord’s edict to help the poor, the sick, and the elderly? Using the text of Deuteronomy 28, which is a list of God’s blessings and curses, Robertson and other Dominionists believe that the chapter reveals God’s covenanted economic law. God only bestows “material wealth or blessings” upon those who are among his elect and he does so because these are the individuals and nations who obey his commandments and laws. So what about the poor? Dominionist Gary North explains it this way:

“God is sovereign over the poor. He raises them up—not all of them, but some of them. ‘The Lord maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.’”<64>

I grant that the verse cited leaves government assistance out of the picture. North claims, the blessings and sanctions of Deuteronomy 28 are historical. He says, “They are predictable. Covenantal rebellion by a society will lead to God’s imposition of these sanctions.”<65> North then ties the package up neatly: “The blessings and cursings of God under the Mosaic Covenant were sure. They were not disconnected from God’s law. There was a bedrock objectivity that united covenant-keepers and covenant-breakers.”<66>

To understand what North is talking about, we have to read a portion of the text of Deuteronomy 28:

“The Lord shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee…and the Lord shall make thee the head and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath…”

A conclusion drawn by the scripture itself is that a nation who follows the commandments or laws of God will be “high above all nations of the earth…and all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the Lord, and they shall be afraid of thee.” On the other hand, the Dominionists believe those who are poor, sick, and weak are so situated because God’s wrath has been visited upon them—they are the “wicked” of this earth and they deserve the wrath of God because their behavior is bringing the entire nation under condemnation.

The litany of the curses of God on those who do not keep his laws and commandments are among the most horrendous descriptions of torture in literature. Here is a sample from Deuteronomy 28:

“The Lord shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies…thy carcass shall be food unto all fowls of the air…The Lord will smite thee with …and with …tumors, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. The Lord shall smite thee with madness and blindness and astonishment of heart ; thou shalt grope at noonday; thou shalt not prosper in thy ways; and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore…thou shalt betroth a wife and another man shall lie with her; thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein, and thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof; thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face and shall not be restored to thee; they sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them. Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long; and there shall be no might in thine hand. The fruit of thy land, and all thy labors, shall a nation whom thou knowest not eat up, and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed always…”

Gary North explained: “The point of Deuteronomy 28 is this: the way to wealth, both individual and corporate, is through systematic adherence to God’s Bible-revealed law.”<67>

Hence the idea that should a nation minister to the poor or attempt to lift the poor out of poverty or save people from poverty and ill health, that nation is contravening the will of Almighty God and such legislation is contrary to the laws of God. It is only one step further to say that if this is God’s attitude toward the poor, it is morally wrong to help them. So it’s easy to see how Social Security and Medicare are viewed by Dominionists as “evil” programs that rob money from some citizens to enrich others.

There’s one other little trap for the unwary Dominionist; when a government is seen to be the enforcer of the Deuteronomic laws, it’s easy to take the next step and say that it is the duty of the “Christian” Dominionist government to subdue the wicked of the world, especially the vast American middle class, because its collective licentious life style is bringing the nation down as a whole; therefore the government must “minister the wrath of God” against the citizens of America as punishment for “rebelliousness.” That the entire scheme is an unending circular argument, escapes the notice of the rank and file sitting in the pews.

In their new role as ministers of God’s wrath against this nation, Dominionist political strategists are aware they must not be seen as being cruel and hateful. So at first, until the population is completely subdued and dominated by the elect, Dominionists are forced to devise laws that will create the political, social, and medical environment that will ultimately ensure that the wicked are punished—but it will appear—at first blush to be a gift. The truth, of course, according to Machiavellian/Straussian dictates, must be hidden from the population; not just once or twice, but over and over again.

In the end, Dominionism should be viewed as a backboard that bounces the New Deal and FDR’s social safety net programs, social security (as well as Medicare) into its political opposite: laissez-faire economics (the motto of 18th century French economists who protested excessive government regulation of industry.) Laissez-faire is a doctrine opposing governmental interference (as by regulation or subsidy) in economic affairs beyond the minimum necessary for the maintenance of peace and property rights. Dominionism opposes the licensing and regulating power of the government.

One last comment on Pat Robertson. On November 3, 1986, the 700 Club ran a piece on the use of computers in counting votes. Robertson ended his Perspective by saying there should be some kind of control on computer voting to assure an honest count. How prescient this man is! And how worrisome his prescience is.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. What a bunch of nuts.
We tried all that stuff. It didn't work. We decided we preferred the New Deal. Enough said.
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. The New Deal "dilutes the judgment of god" who is punishing w/poverty
God rewards those who are good with wealth. This is known as "blessing". Like an xtian would say "God blessed me with great wealth".

God punishes evildoers and the slothful with poverty. If the poor repent of their evil ways, and get right with God, then he will bless them too.

That is why helping the poor is bad. see these articles:

The Problems with Public Welfare
http://www.chalcedon.edu/articles/0411/041101-1gentry.php

excerpt

Americans have long been known to be a charitable people. Unfortunately, government intervention could be changing that. The government has entered and gained monopolistic ascendancy in this field as in so many others. Being charitable makes it a bit difficult for us to speak out against public welfarism, lest we appear to be unconcerned for the needs of the poor. However, there are numerous compelling reasons why we can legitimately decry public welfarism and still maintain — even emphasize — our concern for the less fortunate in our society.

Public welfare destroys the personal relationship and interaction that can be achieved through private, local charity. Big government is faceless and cannot express truly empathetic concern for the needy. The human element, so essential to aid the poor, is sacrificed to computerization.


It actually destroys a true sense of genuine charity among the general populace. Charity today is coercively maintained. How many times have you heard complaints about excessive taxation? And what accounts for a very large percentage of our national debt? I used to work in a grocery store and constantly overheard grumbling from the shoppers who had to pinch their pennies while they observed a heavily loaded shopping cart of choice items being paid for with food stamps. Not only are ill feelings fostered, but also there is provided an excuse to shift responsibility when private charities appeal for funds: "The government has the resources. They will handle the situation."


It destroys, through excessive taxation, the capacity of private citizens and organizations to help. Personal income is eroded through redistributive tax schemes, thus leaving fewer funds for personal charity. Remember the recent uproar over the enormous increase in the Social Security tax? There goes some more money that could have been available for private charity.


It undermines personal responsibility and incentive in the poor to help themselves. Welfare funds are addictive. Withdrawal is hard.

full article at above link

The Swift Advance of a Planned Coup: Conquering by Stealth and Deception - How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm

The Despoiling of America: How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. In Job, God visits horrible punishments on a righteous man
apparently to test his faith. This dominionist theory ignores that Biblical story.
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DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I am so glad you and others remind us of- Dominionism’s Theocratic Views
Years ago when I expressed concern about these wing-ding nuts -- I was called Delusional to worry about such minor inconsequential groups.

Because I was sort of raised a in Evangelical fundamentalist church -- these people would talk to me and tell me about their plans. This was during the 1980s. Several told me that their "leaders" had lists of groups they planned to execute when they gained political power in the US. One guy could recite the list -- I remember Gays and feminists -- and women who have had abortions, and those that give abortions. I sort of blanked out as he recited the rest of the assassination targets -- all I could see in my mind's eye was the streets of the US running red with blood.

I saw these people take over the Republican party -- and they are the ones who own the voting machines with secret software and no paper trails.

Sometimes I wished I lived on a remote tropical island -- with no news of the outside world. But then that has it's own dangers doesn't it?? Oh well . . . back to reading the news.
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Dominionism is Deadly Serious - Dominionism Links/Resources
Fundamentalist Radical Clerics such as Falwell, Dobson, and Robertson are not merely medieval throwbacks or misguided religious hacks. They are part of a well organized subversionary movement known as "Dominionism".

Dominionism constitutes a serious threat to American Democracy. These Radical Clerics have developed and are executing a detailed plan to gradually replace the free, secular democratic society of the United States with a Theocracy.

It is critical that people become aware of the extreme agenda these people have for the United States and ultimately for the world. The results of the 2004 Presidential Election were not a fluke or something that was drummed up over a period of months. It has been in planning for over 20 years, and what we are seeing take place now is, in the words of Katherine Yurica, "the swift advance of a planned coup".

The articles below are critical for understanding the Dominionist movement; for realizing how real and how detailed their plans are; and to become aware of how far they have come toward achieving their goals.

The Swift Advance of a Planned Coup: Conquering by Stealth and Deception - How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm

The Despoiling of America: How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

Video on the Christian Reconstructionist Dominionist Theocratic Agenda
http://www.theocracywatch.org/av/video_dominion.ram

The Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party
a public information project from TheocracyWatch.org

http://www.theocracywatch.org

The Yurica Report - News, Intelligence, Analysis
http://www.yuricareport.com

The Religious Right - An Anti-American Terrorist Movement
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8816.htm
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WhoWantsToBeOccupied Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. All DUers should visit these links and study dominionism. Terrifying!
Edited on Sun Jul-24-05 08:32 PM by WhoWantsToBeOccupied
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Absolutely!!!!!
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MN ChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. And how
I thought Yurica was kind of nutty until I read her stuff carefully. It is all painstakingly referenced and footnoted. Her investigative reports into dominionism are so thorough and frightening that they will scare the hair off a gorilla. :scared:
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Burried News Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. What you say also fits in with two other points.
The administration always acusses others of doing what it in fact does.
Let's look at what they say about Islam - it wants to re-establish its empire (The Caliphate). But this is what the Christian Right wants to do. Once again we have the psychological mechanism of PROJECTION manifesting itself. (One denies their own impulse and projects it on others)

The second point it answers is - what the hell are they going to do with all their money? They have enough as individuals to live like kings. What could motivate a man like Cheney to build a fortune at a time of his life when he is near death - Answer Belief in a mission greater than himself.

And finally the big lie - the US is a Christian Nation and they are defending it. No, the Nation is not beloved it is their tool for conquest. It is something to be used, and so are all of us in it . What a perversion of my idea of Christ. What could be more antithetical to loyalty to the country?
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Speaking of being called delusional -
Similar experience here...7 or 8 years ago I attended a political activism workshop around issues of globalization and also the growing influence of the "religious" right.

After we broke into small groups I tried to explain what these people were up to, because I'd been researching and gathering information even back then. Some woman in the group said "Let's not demonize them." Cute! I guess she was trying to be politically correct. I pretty much shut up after that. I wonder if she's ever had occasion to reflect where we've come to because people like her wouldn't friggin' WAKE UP way back then. <sigh>
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. We could have universal health care, a livable minimum wage, end poverty
and fix most of the problems in this country if it wasn't for the greedy asshole Republican criminals that have seized power. Grrr. :mad:
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Doesn't that thought just make you go grrrr??? me too! n/t
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carnie_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
8. Just what I've been saying
calling these people conservative is an insult to conservatives, they are reactionaries and quite possibly fascists.
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Geek_Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
9. Roberts is about Deregulation pure and simple
Edited on Sun Jul-24-05 08:30 PM by Geek_Girl
I don't believe Bush gives a shit about abortion that's just a wedge issue they use to divide the country. Robert's and any other appointee is about taking away any kind of government over-site. But the american people are to0 f-in dumb to figure it out.

:grr:

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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. But these are religious leaders.........
they have only god's will in mind when they do these things. They wouldn't mislead or lie to us, they're "men of god"! :silly: I can't believe the number of people that still buy into this mythical B.S. with all of their hearts. We've become a country of theo-zombies that will march to any order some self-proclaimed "man of god" dictates. I guess that's why we have the definition of the religious as "sheep" and "lambs" in the bible. The believers who give up all individual thought processes to follow the "good shepherd" straight to their doom.
I'll never understand the willingness of people to completely surrender themselves to "men of god" who can manipulate and control their "flock" any way they see fit. People are giving up their own free will because of some story handed down from generation to generation. Why are people so blindly obedient, is it because they don't want to take responsibility for their own lives, it's easier to have the "shepherd" guide their actions? What the hell is wrong with people? I really don't understand the entire religious dynamic. Why was it created and why are so many willing to believe in something that has no empirical evidence to back it up? This is a serious question, does anyone have any answers? :shrug:
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Burried News Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. They believe in magic. They believe they're special.
Edited on Mon Jul-25-05 03:24 PM by Burried News
If you live in a desert or the wastelands of the south you are nothing, nobody, litterly godforsaken.

Then someone tells you that you are special, loved, important, a child of destiny, an instrument of the universe, eternal etc... Despite your lack of money, education, status etc. no man can tell you what to do (except the preacher) ... Is it easy to distinguish between seduction and love?

Think about it - the appeal is very powerful, psychologically protective etc. So many explanations they offer ring true.

To understand it even partially takes years of dedicated study. The human psyche is as difficult to comprehend as Quantum Mechanics, Relativity and just as removed from common sense as the latter two sciences with the additional complication that we are resistant to the understanding. We literally will resist our understanding as we approach what is unacceptible (discusting etc.) in ourselves.

As for empiricism - I subscribe to it. But in the face of mystery it is a secondary consideration.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050723.html

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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. I love Molly Ivins!
She has a way of covering a lot of ground in a few paragraphs, inserting her dry wit to make a point. :D

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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
12. no "issue" is less
important than another- be it Rove, DSM, TORTURE, or ROBERTS-

We are not imbiciles- we need to fight on EVERY front- the Constitution clearly states:

ADVISE, and CONSENT-

since when does that mean 'give him what he wants'???

who 'advised and consented' to the wars on Afganistan and Iraq?

We CANNOT TRUST THIS MAN to make a 'reasoned' decision on ANYTHING-
he is a liar, a cheat, and a fool-

and when our senators 'enable' him- because they are supposedly 'afraid for their seat'- then fuck, let them lose the seat, and lets stop the charade.

bush said "... you cannot lead America to a positive tomorrow with revenge on one's mind. Revenge is so incredibly negative. — George W. Bush, Interview with the Washington Post, March 23, 2000-

and how does he answer to that? everything changed after 9/ll-
no, everything changed on Dec. 12 2000

and the world as a whole is paying in blood for our inability to stop a monster disguised as 'cowboy gil'-

We have nothing more to lose- we should fight Roberts- and EVERY other issue, with everything we have- we're going down people- we can't pick our battles- every battle is crutial.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. The corp. neocons are USING the Christian Right for their $$ gain.
I can't believe the faithful are so completely, well, stupid as to not see how they are being USED to promote a FINANCIAL agenda! All Bush and his pals have to do is use some lovely (fakeass) Christian catch phrases and have a few zealot types in key positions (think Ashcroft), and they have the majority and the cash they need to ENRICH themselves and their cronies. Think those people TRULY give a shit if prayer is back in schools??? If Roe v. Wade is overturned? Not on your life... they are USING the right wing social issues to get more and more financial control.

The sad thing is.. is that the faithful who are eating this shit up like frosting on a Jesus cupcake, are EQUALLY vulnerable to total financial collapse.. their kids will suffer from the corporate raid on our Country, and there will be NO Rapture to save them from watching every last freakin' job disappear to India.

I suppose being that religiously fanatical makes you so EASY to manipulate.. and that is why it works so well. God will not fill your grocery cart or fund your local library, and neither will the NEOCONS.
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. Not mutually exclusive terms
Corporate neocons and Christian right: Look at Pat Robertson and his shady business dealings in Africa, or the number of these religious leaders who sit on the boards of directors of major corporations.

But I completely concur about the religiously fanatical being so easy to manipulate: They're taught from their earliest years that they are to OBEY authority figures no matter what (one reason why child predators target kids raised in this environment) and that any questioning of these authorities is a sin that puts you in peril of HELLFIRE (one mighty strong mindfuck when used on a child). The foot soldiers in the religious right are a field of "good Germans" waiting to be harvested.
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
19. These people are there own worst enemies
Let them try and overturn Roe v Wade (which is a privacy issue way more than it is an abortion issue (((Terri Schiavo anyone)))). Let them try and keep promoting this pro corporate, pro rich agenda. Hell - go ahead and do it! They'll soon found out what the People think...most of us average Joe's here on the left already know that voting for these tools is voting against our best interests, but when the average red state joe gets hit with the 2 x 4 of reality it will be interesting to see what happens.

In then end it will all work out, it's just the scary in between part that has me worried for my two young kids (17 and 11).

JTT
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truth4achange Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
21. looking...
I'd love to hear a reason that would keep this appointment from moving forward, but so far my reaction is, it could have been MUCH worse. In fact its surprising Bush even put Roberts forward - there MUST be something wrong with him.

for an extended treatment: http://www.hairytruth.blogspot.com
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JRob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
24. THIS HAS BEEN MY POINT ! ! ! All along... Everything we do on
all levels is viable, however it has relatively small teeth if we continue to give our money to the very entities that are pushing the agenda.

STOP FUNDING THE TAKE OVER!

The problem? You need to resist the urge to buy stuff from new cars to vanity items... Used and or bare essentials only.
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
25. That's it in a nutshell
I've never seen the whole mess so succinctly stated. Ms. Ivins is my favorite columnist ever. She always covers the big issues and manages to do it in a very entertaining way. She's the greatest!
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Burried News Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
26. Bankrupted so we'll accept the role of pirates more readily.
Whether in uniform or not we have all been impressed into service to steal what we no longer have the ability to make with honest labor.
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Sam_Lowry Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
29. If you want a vision of the future
picture a boot tramping a human face. Forever.

:scared:

I agree with Molly. The "culture" stuff is for the public. The return to the "gilded age" is for keeps. Where the rich and powerful had no checks upon them, with no labor laws, no environmental laws, no anti-trust laws.

And when we break up like the Soviet Union, GM, Microsoft, Lockheed Martin, and others will happily buy up the pieces, to rule as they see fit. If this fundie gets on the bench, the US will be privatized, sold to the highest bidder. Well, actually, we'll be desperate for the public services we tax-cutted away. So any bid will probably be taken...Get ready get your license renewed at the local "Comcast Direct Department of motor vehicles" (think they will be good at keeping your social security, sorry, "corporate retirement assurance trust" number to themselves?). And hope you can afford to send your kid to the Macys unified school district, cuz the WalMart SuperSchools are gonna suck just as bad as their stores.

Here's a question I'd love some senator to ask this boot lick:

Mr. Roberts, you've argued against environmental laws, saying that unless species traveled between states the federal government is not to interfere. Would you hold to that standard in the case of medical marijuana and assisted suicide?
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
30. Molly deserves a kick
back to the front page.

She's absolutely right.
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jazzjunkysue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Molly's a treasure. Please, Molly, keep talking.
We love ya.
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