How do our ways of moving relate to gender identity?

[Sparkly]

Do men and women have different ways of moving (walking, sitting, gesturing, etc.)? And if so, why -- is it genetic, or learned, or based on body structure? Is it affected by sexual orientation?

Is it part of the reason men are less likely to take movement classes (ballet, ballroom dance, pilates, etc.?) - does it seem feminine?

Anybody know if science has looked at these questions? And whether or not it has, what are your answers?

I really want your thoughts!!

[lumberjack_jeff]

1. Sure, at least during moving time at my household.

"Set the piano over there in the corner. No, not *that* corner, the OTHER corner!" - feminine
"grunt, huff, puff, strain" - masculine

[Sparkly]

5. Heh

That's one way of looking at it! (My line is usually, "Hey, you're the one with the 'upperbody strength.'") :hi:

[rwheeler31]

2. Watch economy of movement with expression,

it is wonderful and can be done by either men or women.

[Sparkly]

6. Do you think that is gained through study?

And does the result appear the same in both men and women?

[garthranzz]

3. A study was done

I don't know if there's a genetic basis for all movements, but there's a physiological difference in the way men and women walk. Their pelvic areas are built differently, for obvious reasons. Several studies of this have been done. One of the most famous photographed people from the back - without clothes - as they walked. The hips move differently, more side to side in women.

I suppose that one gender could learn to walk like the other - actors do it all the time.

Also, years ago, men were as likely to take movement classes, such as dancing, as women. Men were expected to be good dancers and had to learn.

I hope this helps.

[Maple]

7. When I was a girl

we were taught to walk like that...side to side...it was considered more feminine. You do it by putting one foot directly in front of the other.

I chucked that idea, and only kept the 'shoulders back, head up' from deportment classes. And I marched in the military.

I've been told I walk like a guy...and also like a sexy woman. :shrug:

I've watched girls and guys now that 'standing and walking' aren't taught in schools...and there is no difference unless they deliberately 'put on' a walk...some macho strut they've seen on MTV and so on.

Men and women from other countries don't make a production out of it, although some women are taught to take very small steps, which is a nuisance if you're behind one.

I say it's all cultural.

[Sparkly]

17. Wow -- did they teach the boys to walk, too?

Was it in phys. ed class?

I've tried walking in those vintage "pencil skirts" -- some of them keep your knees so close together you can't do anything BUT take a mincing step! (High heels don't help, either.)

[Maple]

26. LOL I dunno

this was a private girls school, and they had 'deportment' classes. Setting a table, learning how to serve tea, having to walk with a book on your head and all that.

Oh yes...pencil skirts...I was trying to catch a bus one day, and couldn't even walk fast, much less run given the tightness around the knees plus the heels. I realized it was like a 'hobble skirt' from the 1800's or so, and just as restraining...this was the beginning of my move to pants on a permanent basis. :D

[Sparkly]

30. "Hobble skirt!"

Was your school in Canada?

I started school in the days of miniskirts. It was a big ordeal to go up stairs because the boys would jeer at our underwear, so we all developed a habit of holding our skirts close with one hand and the railing with the other.

We could wear shorts under the skirts on "gym days," but not on non-gym days, and definitely no pants -- it was like there was a huge concern that we'd get confused about our gender identity if we wore pants too often.

When my older sisters were in high school, they had "sit-ins" and "walk-outs" and other protests and finally got the school to allow pants. And not so coincidentally, all of us made it a priority to end up with careers that didn't require pantyhose. That comfort was so hard won!!

[Maple]

33. Yes, it was

Miniskirts came in when I was around 18...such a relief, such a sense of freedom!

Still couldn't cross my legs...but at least I could WALK!

Since it was still some years to being allowed pants...it gave us at least some freedom.

In my school, girls took a different stairs from the boys, so there was never any peeking.

Jeepers pantyhose?? I loved pantyhose...they were soooo much nicer than garter belts and 'nylons'. And I started out in 'nylons' with those wretched seams up the back...which were very hard to keep straight.

[Sparkly]

8. Makes sense.

What about other gestures and postures?

For example: I once danced in a ballet about farm animals. (Yes, farm animals -- don't ask.) The rooster was supposed to be the Macho Man of the farm. He's supposed to enter walking with his chest puffed out, elbows back, chin thrusting, and then sit down proudly. But the dancer who was the rooster had a "feminine" way of walking during his entrance. The director kept stopping him and telling him to be more macho, but he couldn't get it. Finally, she demonstrated the macho-walk (and quite well, I thought, despite her pointe shoes). Then he got it. He strutted in as she did, looking macho as could be, casting proud glances at the chickens, puffing out his chest. Then he sat down and crossed his legs.

(I don't even know why crossing legs is even associated with "feminine," but it was hilarious.)

[Maple]

15. Crossing legs hmmm?

well we were taught to cross our legs at the ankles...crossing at the knees, although a 'female' way to sit, might expose something...although goodness knows the skirts then were long enough to cover everything and then some.

A 'lady' never sat with her legs apart, and of course never rested one ankle on the opposite knee...but that was a time when only skirts were allowable for women.

I scrapped skirts years ago because of all this nonsense, and life in pants is much more comfortable. :D

[Virginian]

28. Etiquette

When crossing the street, a lady should lift the skirt a little above the ankle with one hand. To lift the skirt with both hands is considered vulgar and excusable only in cases of very deep mud.

-- Hill's Manual of Social Business -- 1889

[Maple]

31. You Went To My School !!!

:7

Yup, that's the kind of stuff we were taught. Skirts weren't much shorter by then either!

[Stinky The Clown]

35. Try this link

The book, Advice From The Attic, is a scream .... lots of old 'advice' that is sure to kill!

http://www.hatpinpress.com/

[BrklynLiberal]

4. It has to do with center of gravity as well as learned behavior.

[Sparkly]

11. To the extent it's learned, I wonder how it developed that way.

If a "limp wrist" or a languid, crossed-leg posture is considered "feminine," did it develop to show weakness somehow? Or some other sort of allure?

Similarly, men walk with their torsos more "locked," it seems to me. Could that have developed to show muscle-bound strength?

(Btw, nobody does this WORSE than Chimpy -- the tennis balls under the armpits look, the palms facing back like an ape...It looks so completely phoney and self-conscious.)

[housewolf]

9. A study of differences in movemet - horses

Some years ago I met a woman who asked almost the same question that you asked - she was interested in feminine and masculine expression in movement. She was lucky enough to own horses - mares and stallions - and spent a lot of time watching and studying them. She noticed very distinct differences between the genders in the various ways, large movements and small - even such things as how they shook their heads.

She was so interested that she learned to mimic some of their movements and showed us how the mares shook their heads and how the stallions shook their. It was fascinating - very much a revelation. It was easy to see the differences between the feminine movements and the masculing movements.

[Sparkly]

12. That's fascinating!

Do you recall what the specific differences were, in general?

[housewolf]

47. I wish I did...

I haven't thought about his for years - I can almost see her demonstrating the mares, and then the stallions, and it being so obvious ... unfortunately I don't have the words to describe it to you.

[Clark2008]

50. I know!

Mares shake more from side to side, as in to illustrate their manes... to make them flow. They have a more "no-no" thrust to their shake.

Stallions shake more up and down. More powerful thrusts. More agressive.

I have never thought about it until you brought it up, but, yeah, I've noticed the differences.

[barb162]

10. Certainly

Ever see a man sit versus a woman? A man often has his legs spread wide and a woman rarely does.

Ever see a man in a meeting? A man will often put one arm over the back of a chair adjacent. A woman rarely if ever does that.



So many other things like that.

I think men basically show a "lord it over everything" body language

[Sparkly]

13. Very interesting observation!!

Maybe men make themselves larger in space, and women make themselves smaller. Hmm...

[Maple]

19. If you really want to shock people

without doing anything remotely 'scandalous'...walk into a room, turn the chair around so the back of it is facing other people and straddle it while resting your arms on the back of it.

You've seen men do it, I'm sure.

Watch the reaction if a woman does it. It's very funny.

It shocks and upsets people, yet they really don't know why since nothing is exposed, or revealed.

[Sparkly]

24. Hah!!

That is so funny! As soon as I imagined myself doing that, I thought how oddly "macho" that would feel.

I think there's also a prurient cultural thing about women having their knees apart.

[barb162]

36. It wouldn't shock or upset me because this type of action

is what I have been talking about here. (She's acting like a, a, man. SHe can't do that!)

[Sparkly]

39. Very interesting -- could that relate to women's joy in dancing?

I was asking in the lounge about why few men dance (ballet, modern, other) than women. Maybe we like the freedom of expanding ourselves and taking up space (and rolling on the floor and leaping in the air). It's funny that when asked to move in a situation like that, most men tend to make themselves as *small* as possible, physically.

Hmm...

[Maple]

42. Maybe not

but it still shocks most people, and it's hilarious to watch. :D

[barb162]

44. Every so often I will cross my legs with my ankle on my knee

(like a man) and I get looks. It's so telling by the people who are giving me the looks. By the way, I am never showing anything.

[Maple]

45. My favorite way to sit

and it can only be done in pants. I also get weird looks, so I do it often. :7

[Maraya1969]

66. OK so what is this?

I have this thing where I always like to sit cross legged. I will even do this in a nice restaurant if they have booths. I never sit on my couch with my legs down or even on the chair by the computer. Usually then I have one leg up and the other twisted below.

Maybe that's why I have back pain? Or maybe the back pain causes me to do it. Who knows?

[magellan]

69. I sit the same way

Have to have my feet propped up on something, tucked under or sit indian-style (as my gram called cross-legged). I'm too fidgety to sit like a lady for long. I'm also double-jointed in my hips so these odd sitting positions don't bother me.

As for gender-related movements, I've always been a people-watcher and it's struck me that generally the more feminine a woman is physically, the more graceful she is in movement. The opposite is true of men; the more masculine their basic physical aspect, the more manly their style. This doesn't seem to have anything to do with weight or much to do with upbringing, though rough edges can be softened with training. It wouldn't surprise me if it's genetic somehow.

[barb162]

22. Yes, you will see certain male teens "strut" down the street

but you don't see female teens strutting.

There are books on body language and I think from at least the ones I have read, they are basically accurate.

I have also seen many men put their foot up on a chair seat when they are standing or they will put both feet up on somebody's desk and really get in a relaxed/ almost prone pose. How many women have you seen doing either.

[Sparkly]

27. There was something called a "pimp walk" when I was in highschool...

One time one of my girlfriend's mother was driving us someplace, and as we were stopped at a red light, a boy crossed the street doing a very BAD, exaggerated pimp walk. Ordinarily it was considered cool, but this boy was far overdoing it to say the least, and we cracked up. My friends mother turned to us solemnly and admonished, "Girls, don't laugh at that boy! He obviously has something wrong with his leg."

[barb162]

32. Oh is that what they call it.

I have seen a lot of variations that the teen boys do with their walks...I guess it depends on which TV shows or neighborhoods they live in or things like that

[jsamuel]

14. Look up "Gender Roles" in Anthropology

[Sparkly]

18. Anthro -- thank you!

That may be what was missing in my Googling. :hi:

[Maraya1969]

16. I used to teach ballroom dance and men in general had a hard

time with the Latin movement of the hips. Unless they were Latin! Latin men can Salsa with their hips swaying like a woman. And I think there is a difference between Latin and Black dancing. Black men are certainly good dancers but they do not have that innate Latin movement.

Is it all learned from society? I have no idea. Of course gay men are "usually" better dancers than straight men but I don't know if that is learned or genetic. Maybe they are just less afraid to move their hips than straight men because straight men might think the movement is too un-macho.

I also found that men in general do not move their feet when dancing! If you tell them to take a step to the right they move their right foot over and then back to the same position it was in to start with. The words, "light on his feet" really mean something when it comes to good dancing and it also might be a frightening thought to some men.

The ironic thing is a woman LOVES a man that can dance! So if you are thinking about it, take lessons.

I was told a long time ago that I kind of strutted when I walked. I think it was a matter of how I felt about myself or how I wanted to project myself.

[Sparkly]

20. I met my husb ballroom dancing.

He definitely has that Latin movement thing. I've wondered the same thing you mentioned about whether some men just can't get that, or are afraid to do it.

[Clark2008]

53. That's the secret to great love-making as well!

Men who know how to swivel their hips (and aren't ashamed) can do marvelous things.

I'm 35 and just now know this!

:blush:

[Maraya1969]

64. I'm 47 and you just taught me something new!

I guess all the guys in here should start practicing their Latin movement!
:bounce: <<<< that is not it. But it's a good example if you visualize it side to side!

[shraby]

21. Men's and women's arms are built differently.

The elbow is turned more in one than the other. Can't remember which is which though.

[TahitiNut]

38. If you hang your arm straight down at your side, palm forward ...

... a woman's elbow will fall inside a line from the shoulder to the palm, while a man's arm is virtually straight. (It's one of the things that affects the throwing motion.)

[Maple]

41. Wouldn't that be

because men's shoulders are wider than their hips?

The arms would just 'hang' differently.

[TahitiNut]

49. Naww.. hold it straight out, palm up. Same deal, Women's elbows are in.

It's an old bit of trivia ... when I was young and in the bar crowd, I'd use it as an "ice breaker." People seem amazed. Go figure. (Most women can 'straighten' their arms past 180, too.)

[Maple]

51. Mine aren't

[TahitiNut]

54. Ruh roh.

:scared:

[Maple]

55. LOL

if I'm not worried, why should you be? :7

[seabeyond]

23. my son told me to look at my fingernails, and as i did he said

boy will do it this way, bending fingers to palm to look, girls will open hand out, extend palm out and look at nails

as i extend fingers out palm out, to look at nails, he was right on

so how do you look at your nails. is it consistant. fingers curled to palm, male. fingers extended out female?

[Sparkly]

25. I look at them the man way.

But then, I'm a pianist too -- curved fingers feel natural, and I don't have nails. :(

[Maple]

29. Girls are probably used to

checking fingernail polish. :D

I've seen it done both ways, and done so myself.

[UncleSepp]

34. Different, can't tell you how, but mostly I do the "wrong" movements

I have to watch women to figure out what the ways are that women are supposed to sit, and have never gotten the hang of it. The obvious ones I know, like about how much space a man vs. a woman takes up. Some I can't figure out at all. My husband told me once that I hold a cigarette like a man. I still haven't figured that one out!

[Maple]

37. Heh, rejoice in it

and live for non-conformity. :D

[Maraya1969]

65. I'm thinking James Dean with the cigarette thing.

[zalinda]

40. Did any of you do the wall test?

You stand facing the wall, toes touching the wall, take 2 foot lengths back, then some one hands you a chair which you put in front of you. Then you bend at the waist, put your hands on the chair seat and pick up the chair then stand up straight. It was said that only females could do it, because of their center of gravity.

zalinda

[Maple]

43. Never heard that one!

Such silliness we grew up with eh?

[uppityperson]

56. Kneel on floor, touch nose to floor test

Kneel on the floor (ft flat under you), elbows flat on floor touching knees. Put a coin/marker on the floor at your fingertip level. Now straighten up, still kneeling with hands behind your back. Lean forward to touch your nose to the marker. MOST women can do it, MOST men cannot because of which is larger-shoulders or hips. It does not work on everyone, but MOST people.

[Maple]

58. I think most people

have waaaaaaaaaaaay too much free time on their hands!

[uppityperson]

76. Aw, come on. It's fun. And fast.

My child tried this in third grade pe class, amazing how even at that young age the males and females were (mostly) seperated by this test.

Now, off to do something else timewastingly stupid (or maybe go to work)

[Maraya1969]

68. I did it when I was a kid. My father taught us and it is true, at least

for me and my brother and whoever else we told about it. I'm too lazy to get a chair and move it these days.

[zalinda]

72. Oop, forgot, your head has to touch the wall

when you bend at the waist. We did it back in the late 60's.

zalinda

[housewolf]

46. Men are more in their heads, women more in their bodies

Men seem to be more connected to things of "the head" - ideas, concepts, reason, logic and disconnected from their bodies so they are less concerned with the "whole" of their bodies than women (we won't go into that certain body part that they are obsessed with - it's only a _part_, after all, and not their body as a whole). They are more "in their heads", cut off from their bodies and its feelings/emotions.

Women are more connected to their bodies - the earth, emotions, feelings, water, fluidity - and the expression of those qualities. I base this assertion on the concept that emotions are energy in motion moving through the body, not creations of the mind (i.e., mental).

'Course these are generalizations. I see these as expressions of the universal energetics of the Masculine and the Feminine. All individuals express both but most express more of one than the other. Some of it is innate based on the body's gender, but some of it can be learned - take, for example, the mannerisms that a transvestite might adopt. With practice, a transvestite's gender can be impossible to identify.

[Maple]

48. I sincerely hope you're joking

on this one.

Because it's the worst kind of claptrap from the 50's and earlier.

Like the Victorian age.

[Maraya1969]

67. Last week when there was a full moon I was talking to my cousin

and was all weepy and crying. She said that our emotions come to the surface more during a full moon. Then I thought, "maybe that's why it is so easy to cry now"

I wonder if a person sweats more during a full more. I can tell you that weeds are much easier pulled after a full moon. Try it. It's pretty amazing.

I could go on and on!:crazy:

[noiretextatique]

52. some genetic, a lot learned

there were lots of "rules" for what girls were supposed to do when i grew up...how to sit, walk, etc, etc, etc. i managed to break most of them :7
i have been told that i walk and carry myself "like a man" most of my life. i sometimes joke that i never learned a lot of the "secret woman stuff" that some girls did because my mother wasn't around to teach me.
and of course, it never suited my personality anyway. i do think sexual orientation plays a role...or perhaps it's just that gender-bending behavior is more acceptable in some subcultures.
i took a socialization course in college, and we studied quite a bit about gender roles. for my final project, i visited a playground to study the behavior of boys and girls at play. i don't remember the details now (it was many moons ago), but the results were as expected...mostly stereotypical.

[Clark2008]

57. Do you think the sons of smarter single women are the same?

My b/f laughs because my son can be so meladramatic... and smart... and attempting to circumvent our relationship (yeah, the whole nine yards), yet he is "all boy."

[noiretextatique]

61. lol...he sounds like a great kid

i think that's an interesting question...i would think there is probably some research out there somewhere. i do know that the men i tend to like grew up with sisters :D
and i think children tend to learn behaviors from the people they are around the most, but they also learned expected (in a social/cultural sense) gender behaviors from school, movies, extended families, etc.
and i would think that male children raised by smart single mothers would probably feel more pressure to be "all boy."

[Freedomfried]

59. Tell a man to look at his fingernails...

He'll always turn his close his fist and turn his hands inwards, a woman will turn her hand away from her and extend her fingers.

Just something I've noticed.

[Maple]

60. Nail polish check

learned behavior

[Freedomfried]

70. Ahhhhhh-soooooo, thats why.

[noiretextatique]

62. something i noticed about space

at a poetry reading. i went on after a young man who read what i thought was a vulgar and crass sexual poem. i read what i think is a very sensual and tasteful poem. he seemed to have a problem with the attention i got, so he came near where i was standing and attempted to invade my space. i've noticed that some men do that...expect a woman to concede space. so...i didn't concede and shrink myself, and i didn't move. the more i stood my ground and claimed my space, the more he tried to intimidate me. finally...he tired of the tug-of-war and moved away.
no way was i going to allow him to intimidate me.

[noamnety]

63. I'm forever playing Space Invaders!

I noticed at work a few years ago that if I walk down a hallway and a man walks towards me, he will always crowd me and it's just natural that I move out of his way as I'm walking. I started paying attention, and noticed it happening again and again, and I got ticked off.

So I started walking differently - standing more upright, swaggering, and most importantly, not conceding that space. If the guy wants to give a little, fine, I will too. But if he's making a beeline for my space and not slowing down, forget it. I'd rather walk straight into him. And since I took on that attitude, I haven't had to bump into anyone - they've eventually moved back out of my way.

I also learned that I was letting aggressive people herd me like a sheep ... if I was walking somewhere in the hall and somebody started talking to me, somehow I was letting myself get roped into these conversations and not finding a graceful way out. I finally figured out the key is to just keep walking, don't slow down. So at some point you're answering back over your shoulder at them, or forcing them to start walking with you, rather than letting them coerce you into stopping. It was a subtle thing for me to switch that, but it felt more like I was in control - especially as the people who tended to do that to me were bullying types to start with.

[noiretextatique]

73. it happens all the time at work

and on the train too...the sapce invasion thing. body language is so important on the streets...some people (a lot of women), carry themselves like victims in the world. i learned not to do that (have the stance of victim) after a one brush too many with a lunatic on the street.
i was waiting for a bus, and this guy starts approaching me, so i premptively told him i didn't have any money. so, he starts going ballistic about women always thinking he wanted money...invading my space in the process. i used to carry a big as bowie knife in my backpack, and i always held onto the handle on the street...just in case. i calmed the guy down by talking, and backing him off me with my body language...and guess what? he asked me for a dollar :shrug: thankfully the bus arrived...

[JerseygirlCT]

71. Walk down the street -

watch the men, especially the ones in business suits. There are a number of them who give ground for no one. I like to make them move out of my way. It throws them completely off. They really expect, in a completely unconscious way, that everyone else, particularly women, will move to the side.

[noiretextatique]

74. yes...i like to do that too

make them concede ground to me...they don't expect it. i've noticed this in grocery stores too. grocery stores are great places to study human behavior.

[Misunderestimator]

75. Learned: I move and walk and stand differently based on the occasion

No, it's not affected by sexual orientation. I have known just as many masculine gay men as straight ones, and as many effeminate straight men as gay ones. Same with women (actually... I swear I have met more masculine mannered straight women than I have gay women).

Personally, it depends on the situation for me I don't relate my body movement to my gender, but only to the situation. If I am running a meeting, my gestures are larger and wider. If I am sitting next to an asshole on a plane who keeps invading my space with his knees or arm... I do the same damn thing back.

There are also situations where my movements are more feminine... probably mainly when I am around women, for whatever reason. :) And when I used to be a performer, I played feminine roles, so my movements were extremely feminine in that situation.

Learned, definitely, and body structure to a smaller extent.