How would you feel if say, Janeane Garofalo, posed with the Insurgents

[trumad]

as they were making a roadside bomb? And let's say Janeane was doing it as a form of protest against the Iraq war?

On edit... I just picked a liberal out of the air to make a point... This aint about Janeane.

[The Jacobin]

1. I would say she would be a f*cking moron.

eom

[bpilgrim]

168. How would you feel if say, you concocted a RW strawman to resurrect anothe

RW straw-woman from the past to deflect criticism from the present cluster-fuck built on LIES, over there?

:shrug:

peace

[The Jacobin]

180. Who?

I'm not sure who you're refering to, but I will say this:

A local conservative talk-show host is already organizing a protest if Fonda comes to Dallas/ Fort Worth on her tour. I am looking forward to mocking them already.

[bpilgrim]

199. sorry, my other post was directed at trumad

good luck at the 'march' reTHUGs are so easy to mock ;->

:hi:

peace

[NMDemDist2]

2. got a new flamesuit you're wanting to try out trumad???

:rofl:

[LSK]

3. you mean she posed with Iraqi citizens who want us to leave???

Those insurgents?

[Karenina]

59. Or who want these guys to JUST. GO. HOME?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4173752

[Imagevision]

107. Define Insurgent? family of collateral damage victims turned

against the US.??

stupid question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kraklen]

4. I'd say she has a right to free speech...

and if somebody doesn't like it they can get the hell out of America.

:P

[iamjoy]

19. She Has Right To Be An Idiot

And posing with insurgents would be very, very stupid.

Not only for the negative publicity it would generate for the anti-war movement, but because they might kill her.

[Kraklen]

23. Eh.

I'll bet the U.S. forces have killed more journalists than the insurgents.

[iamjoy]

62. You May Be Right (eom)

[billbuckhead]

5. Why are you trashing Janeane?

[Guaranteed]

9. I don't think he is. He's just using her as an example,

not that Janeane would do something like that.

[trumad]

11. Thank you

[Hobarticus]

17. Making a contemporary comparison to Jane Fonda and Vietnam...

Not trashing anyone in particular.

[geek tragedy]

6. I highly doubt that she would ever do something so foul and treasonous. nt

[saracat]

24. What would be treasonous about it?

The one who is treasonous is the one who sent troops to a country that didn't attack and doesn't want us there!

[geek tragedy]

72. Same crime as Tokyo Rose and Lord Haw-haw. eom

[The Stranger]

40. "Treasonous"?

Protest is treason? Did I accidentally log on to freerepublic?

[geek tragedy]

75. No. But doing PR stunts on behalf of the people trying to kill US troops

certainly isn't the act of a loyal citizen.

[The Stranger]

78. Actually, trying to get the U.S. to live up to its truest ideals and most

noble goals -- its very mission as a nation -- is the most loyal thing of all.

Those who pervert, demean and denigrate the nation by leading it into illegal wars based on lies -- which leads to the actual deaths of U.S. troops and innocent civilians (as opposed to mere "posing" with people who may or may not have engaged in battle) -- is far more disloyal to the nation, and far less truly patriotic.

But throwing around allegations of treason when someone seeks to show that the nation has been thrown very dangerously off course (by protesting, no less) really seeks to support that detour into illegal wars, invasions, and totalitarian-leaning ideologies and oppression.

[geek tragedy]

89. Protest is noble and laudable. Posing for PR stunts with people actively

trying to kill Americans is not patriotic. It's openly siding with.

Of course, no one has actually done this in Iraq, so the point is moot.

[cascadiance]

116. This is like asking "What if Tom Delay were shown wearing a KKK robe?"

Conjecture like this doesn't really do any good. We're conjecturing on something that hasn't happened and isn't likely to happen. How can you judge someone for something they haven't done. Sounds like "Minority Report" logic if you ask me (pardon the pun on "Majority Report"! :) )

[geek tragedy]

120. I agree--absurd hypothetical that doesn't advance the discourse.

And Jane Fonda should keep her ultra-rich aging hippie ass out of the Iraq debate--there's not a person on the planet who's going to say "Oh, Jane Fonda's against it? I'm changing my mind!"

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

177. What's wrong with being ultra-rich?

At least she, unlike others *cough*dubya*cough*, worked for her riches.

[geek tragedy]

182. A real Commie wouldn't ask such a question.

;)

But, allow me to rephrase : She's a limousine liberal.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

185. That tem. "Lumousine liberal". I've heard and read it a lot.

And it is ALWAYS in RW vitriol. FR, the Sphincter, Rush, Coulter, assorted RWers in other, non-politics forums I frequent, etc.

I fail to see how being a frequent linousine rider disqualifies you from being a liberal. For one thing, I'll bet it wastes less gas than a SUV.

And you don't have the slightest idea what my screenname means.

[geek tragedy]

187. Dustin Hoffman once referred to himself as a limousine liberal.

I generally don't take the perspective of the upper class very seriously--they are so insulated from the concerns of the working class that they get disconnected from reality.

[Susang]

188. To 90% of the world, you are the upper class

It helps to remember that sometimes.

[StopTheMorans]

189. almost all of our politicians are "upper class"

how do you expect to change anything if you don't take the perspective of at least Democratic politicians seriously, unless you expect to change our system of govt (which is laughable in its absurdity)?

[geek tragedy]

192. Movie stars aren't politicians. Harry Reid and Barbarar Boxer are worth

listening to. Barbra Streisand and Tim Robbins, not so much.

Nobody voted for Jane Fonda.

[StopTheMorans]

197. you said you didn't trust the upper class because they were "out of

touch", you didn't limit your statement to "upper class movie stars."

[Media_Lies_Daily]

203. Too bad Reagan's dead...you could run that by him and Ahnold.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

190. Incredibly stupid generalization.

In which, I'm willing to bet, even you don't believe.

If you disqualifying rich people from espousing liberal opinion, what's left are mostly people who have NO access to the airwaves to make their opinions heard.

Mighty convenient huh?

[geek tragedy]

191. I'm just saying that Hollywood celebrities are about the least compelling

voices. Who gives a fuck what Jane Fonda or Clint Eastwood think? They have nothing to lose regardless of which direction the world goes.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

193. What's the litmus test for being compelling then?

Having a PhD? Being a politician?

[geek tragedy]

194. No litmus test. If a celebrity has devoted years to activism and helping

make the world a better place, then they may be compelling.

Someone who decides to do photo ops every two decades or so isn't compelling.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

195. So just being a citizen and speaking out is out of the question, huh?

I don't see you making such demands of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Bruce Willis, or Ted Nugent. I wonder why.

[geek tragedy]

196. Because they're not the subject of this thread. Schwarzenegger

is governor of California--so he has to be taken seriously, and he has to be taken down and defeated.

I don't give a shit what Bruce Willis and Ted Nugent do--Willis is a has-been and Nugent is a nutter. They're irrelevant, as well as being right-wing assholes.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

198. Dustin Hoffman and Barbara Streisand aren't the subject either.

But you picked THEM instead of a RW celebrity. EDIT: I see you mentioned Clint Eastwood too. Nice CYA.

[The Stranger]

173. Unfortunately, you don't get to choose how people protest.

That is the thing about freedom of speech (and why your pronoucements of "treason" are both disturbing and destroying your credibility), but hopefully people choose to protest in an effective manner.

[geek tragedy]

181. I dont' get to choose how people protest, and in turn they don't get to

choose how I and others perceive and describe their conduct. Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

(Btw, Tokyo Rose and Lord Haw Haw were guilty of treason and sedition for doing nothing more than expressing themselves, and the proposed hypothetical comes uncomfortably close to their actions.)

If I and others would describe such conduct as seditious and disgusting, that's our right.

[The Stranger]

205. Nonsense.

"Tokyo Rose" made broadcasts and, although convicted, was later cleared of all charges, if the person they prosecuted was even "Tokyo Rose."

Lord Haw Haw was convicted under British law, which is one reason why the U.S. Founding Fathers specifically wrote the crime of treason into the Constitution. Besides, neither of these are apt examples.

If you have a problem, write the President and ask him to prosecute Jane Fonda -- the analog to Janeane Garofalo in this thread -- not Tokyo Rose or Lord Haw Haw. Apparently nothing Jane Fonda did was worthy of an indictment for treason or sedition.

Most important, throwing around allegations of treason when someone seeks to show that the nation has been hijacked (by protesting to show this, no less) really seeks to support that detour into illegal wars, invasions, and totalitarian-leaning ideologies and oppression.

[geek tragedy]

207. There's legal treason and then there's rhetorical treason.

Not every action which indicates disloyalty is illegal.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

102. Treasonous? The ones who lied us into this war in the first place are

the traitors.

During WW2 the insurgents would be called The Resistance, and anyone who played footsies with the occupying Germans were called Collaborators.

[BrainRants]

7. Was she nekkid?

If not, then I don't care.

[DemGa]

8. Why do you hate America?

*kidding*

[Imagevision]

108. This gotta be a freeper question!

[raysr]

146. why do you love it?

[Catherine Vincent]

10. What brought this on?

[LSK]

14. probably the Jane Fonda thread n/t

[mitchtv]

12. you mean the Iraqi Resistance?

insurgent means nothing.

[zbdent]

13. I bet you'd see it more often than you'd see

the picture of Rummy shaking hands with "The Next Hitler" Saddam Hussein" . . .

[wtmusic]

15. Get it hot right here

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[KC_25]

16. I would call it an

act of treason.
What else would it be?

[Fleshdancer]

18. I would lose respect for her

Thankfully this is a hypothetical situation. Janeane is too smart to do somthing that stupid.

[Disturbed]

34. Is Amerika at war in Iraq or...

an Occupation Force that is not wanted there by an unknown number of Iraqis. Last time I checked around 82% of Iraqis want the U.S. and it's allies in Iraq to vacate the territory. Aren't the U.S. and it's allies tresspassing?

[trumad]

41. But how would you feel?

[Fleshdancer]

109. hey, I don't agree with the war either but that wasn't the question

One can protest a war without approving insurgent attacks on our troops. Besides, you can't exactly claim to be anti-war when taking pictures with a group that is clearly at war, can you?

[tjdee]

20. If this was THIRTY YEARS LATER and she apologized,

I wouldn't give a shit. I'd think it was a bad decision, and I'd go geez, it's not cool to like Janeane anymore....but I don't think I'd never be able to get over it. She's just a freakin' actress. She isn't the reason for the war, she isn't the reason people are shooting at other people, etc.

But that's just me, not holding a grudge against someone I don't know--who seems to be a stand up person otherwise.

Crazy, huh.

[getmeouttahere]

21. I was thinking this was another "I'm not Fonda Jane"

type trying to make a comparison...

get over it...it was 34 years ago.

[trumad]

27. 34 years ago to a Viet Vet is like yesterday

You tell them to get over it.

[tjdee]

32. So your post should have asked how we'd feel

if we were in the armed forces at the time.

Obviously their feelings would be stronger.

[Gormy Cuss]

76. And while you're at it, tell their families too.

Thank you trumad.

[crispini]

22. Are we talking about Jane Fonda AGAIN?

Why?

Oh, and :popcorn:

[skylarmae]

25. if this is a lame attempt to parody Jane Fonda's actions

during the Vietnam War, Don't.....Stop!!!!
Take a deep breathe and try again...

[trumad]

30. Well, how would you feel?

[donheld]

210. trumad

:youdontrock:

[two gun sid]

26. It wouldn't bother me in the least...

the Iraqi's were not the aggressors in this war. It would be the same as someone posing with Native Americans during the US expansion in the west durin the 1800's. I would hope that she wouldn't do it out of respect for service members and their families.

[KC_25]

35. We have a winner

I would hope that she wouldn't do it out of respect for service members and their families.

bada boom bada bing!

[Finder]

52. Which service members?

The ones who tortured prisoners or the ones that have no other choice but to follow orders? I personally selectively support the troops.

[Maru Kitteh]

28. I would assume the woman had suffered a recent head injury

What Fonda did was irretrievably stupid, and she'll pay for it for the rest of her life.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Finder]

71. I wonder how our insurgent founders got the British out of the US?

Remember, we were the insurgency in 1776.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tommymac]

154. You mean they are actually going to move left???

Horrah!:evilgrin:

[Finder]

157. nobody is equating the two....

the insurgency is made up of Iraqi citizens--some who have had their families killed by our "smart bombs" that want their country back and out from under occupation.

[ISUGRADIA]

172. "insurgency is made up of Iraqi citizens" uh, questionable

and if so they seem to be killing a hell of a lot more Iraqis than Americans.

[K-W]

201. You have a link that proves that? EOM

[mitchtv]

161. We? Us???

DLC concludes?

[K-W]

200. What part of the right to self determination dont you get? EOM

[fujiyama]

97. This is quite likely

the single worst spokesperson to have representing the anti war left.

She's doing damage to those that oppose this war. Basically it confirms what I felt about her - it's all for publicity - it's all about Jane.

[mitchtv]

159. yada yada yada ,what BS

Group think esposed by all. "we must finish the job" Bullshit GET OUT NOW, The iraqis can take care of themselves, and watch how fast they throw ALL foreigners out after we leave. They should get annual reparation checks for the next 20 years from US. We have no intention of getting out ever, so that argument is crap Election? what a laugh does anyone here believe that it wasn't brought to you courtesy of the Republicans?

[eridani]

169. Define "winning"

To Bushco it means cramming permanent military bases down their throats. There is no legitimate goal over their that would be furthered by continuing the occupation.

[LSK]

29. how would the Germans feel about Ava Braun posing with French resistance??

Who would be wrong there?

[reorg]

70. Eva Braun? Fat chance. Better example: Marlene Dietrich

Many Germans never forgave her for supporting American troops. She went on tour "so that bombs can get paid for. Bombs that will fall on Berlin, where my mother is still living. ..." (quote from a letter).

But she didn't depend on German "patriots" for making a living, of course.


Ich gehe auf Tourneen, helfe, daß Bomben bezahlt werden können.
Bomben, die auf Berlin fallen werden, wo immer noch meine Mutter
lebt. Ich versuche nicht daran zu denken. Wenn ich es tun würde,
könnte ich nicht weitermachen.

[Tanuki]

31. Stupid rumors

I know you are just making a hypothetical example, but this is how stupid rumors get started. It wouldn't surprise me if some Freeper moran picks it up and says, hey, did you hear about Janeane? I read it on DU....

[Hobarticus]

37. Kinda like, "Jane reported a POW who tried to pass her a note..."

That is the LAMEST Internet rumor.

The former POW named in the rumor has flat-out DENIED it, himself.

[trumad]

38. Well... I can't discuss something

out of fear thast the Morans will take it wrong? Fuck em.

[nookiemonster]

65. You know.......

that idea holds merit. Of the devious type.

MMMWWWAAAHAHAHAHA

:evilgrin:

[Finder]

33. I would commend her and support...

her decision to do so. That is if you mean the citizens of Iraq as insurgents fighting an occupying army. (the terrorists are a different group)

[Guaranteed]

36. *slaps forehead* nt

[trumad]

39. You measn like Zakarwi?

[LSK]

45. or the husbands of the women raped in Abu Graih?

[Finder]

47. He is not an insurgent. (nt)

[mitchtv]

162. Ricardo Sanchez?

same difference

[0rganism]

42. Weren't the NVA considered legal combatants?

IIRC, "Hanoi" Jane Fonda posed with soldiers, not insurgents. She didn't pose with any Viet Cong AFAIK. The NVA soldiers in question were manning AAGs used to shoot at planes dropping tons of explosives on civilian populations and infrastructure (illegal acts cf the Geneva convention), not bombing those populations themselves.

In that respect at least, it seems to me you're making an apples-oranges comparison.

[trumad]

43. Maybe..but how would you feel?

[0rganism]

57. Hard to say offhand, especially hypothetically

It's easier for me to hypothesize about the thinker than the feeler, so I'll go with that.

I'd think that Janeane was doing something very stupid on several levels.

First, it exposes her to unnecessary danger, and she's an important resource for the budding left media.

Second, it discredits her to most of America. She'd be publicly villified as "Baghdad" Janeane and used in blanket denigration of peace activists as being "in cahoots with the terrorists". To the same extent that she was a valuable asset to the left before such an action, she'd become that same degree of asset to the bush right in the aftermath.

Third, it would encourage the insurgency in its approach of alienating America by murdering perceived collaborators and innocent bystanders. While undesirable in itself, it also delays the time at which Iraq can be deemed stabilized and American troops withdrawn in a politically expedient manner, which runs directly counter to anti-occupation objectives.

In summary, it'd be a risky move that could only cripple her position.

Only 3 in 1972, I'm not sure how much of this applies to Jane Fonda's visit to North Vietnam. Coming as it did 6 months before the Paris Peace Accords, it can't be directly construed as damaging to a peaceful outcome. I really don't know how the American media handled it then, but there's no question it came back to haunt Sen. Kerry in 2004.

[Jacobin]

44. "Insurgents" are Iraqis who are fighting to run Americans out of

their country.

When you let the media define your enemy for you, and use their terms, the answers you will get will be predictable, but not connected to reality.

Since we have no right to be there and are oppressing them and stealing their resources, why are you on your high horse about supporting those in Iraq who are fighting to remove the occupying forces?

I'm old enough to have participated in the war in this country to remove our troops from Viet Nam. It wasn't pretty. It wasn't clever. It wasn't politically correct. It was a fucking war, with protesters being shot, recruitments centers being burned down, thousands of americans leaving for Canada (permanently they thought at the time).

It was a fucking war to stop the war.

If the silk stocking dems aren't serious about stopping this imperialistic clusterfuck in IraqNam, then fine....make fun of those who have the chutzpah to oppose it.

But don't come bitchin' in ten years when we are still there, because we 'didn't use the right strategy' or 'didn't want to be associated with someone who Rush doesn't like' or any other number of excuses to avoid doing the dirty work to stop the goddamned occupation.

Okay?

[wli]

48. what's a "silk stocking Democrat?"

[Jacobin]

83. Someone who considers him/herself

"above the fray" or is afraid to confront the neo-cons in a way that would offend the corporatist wing of the dem party or who freaks out if someone like Jane Fonda announces she is opposing the war because it might give Rush something to talk about.

According to me, for what its worth

[LanternWaste]

94. Thanks fer that

Damn! There it is and that sums it up. Thanks fer that.

:yourock:

[Kraklen]

49. Isn't that kind of like flying the confederate flag?

Pretty close if you ask me.

Ignoring the racist connotations of course.

[Disturbed]

53. I have come to the conclusion that most Dems and most on

DU support the U.S. Occupation of Iraq. What the Iraqis want doesn't count. I am convinced that unless the Bush Regime decides to pull out all of it's forces or the Iraqis decide to put aside their differences for a while and unite to force the U.S. out, the Occupation will remain for at least 3 more years. I don't believe that if a Dem was elected in '08 that the U.S. Occupation would end then either. In my view the U.S. will maintain a large force in Iraq for at least 20 years.

[Kraklen]

54. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.

[wli]

50. I'd probably say it's unsafe and there are better ways to protest

Like using words instead of easily-misinterpreted pictures.

[Lannes]

51. Big mistake

These are the same guys that go for maximum CIVILIAN casualties.I wouldnt be comfortable if they were killing only American soldiers but they are doing alot more than that.There are plenty of other ways to protest our involvement in Iraq.

edit for clarification

[Finder]

56. Not true...

The legitimate insurgency employs guerilla tactics and attacks military and enablers only. As another poster stated above, don't go by the definition of most biased US media.

[Lannes]

60. I disagree

The point I was making was that there are insurgents that go after
civilians,you are right not all do.I should have made that clear.But you nor I or some celebrity like Garafolo (as much as I am a fan of hers)has a way of being able to tell the difference.She has plenty of other ways to protest the war.

[Rex]

55. I'd think whoever would do such a thing is an idiot.

Then I would forget about it and see what's on t.v.

[NoPasaran]

58. I would say

"Didn't she learn a fucking thing from Jane Fonda?"

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

61. What would you say to someone who keeps bringing up RW talking points?

Like "Jane Fonda gave aid and comfort to the enemy".

Kinda like the Swiftboat Vets kept attacking Kerry's medals.

[Panda1]

63. Same way I'd feel if Rummy posed with Saddam.

Or if Chimpy posed with Saudis.

[MisterP]

64. well, I wouldn't have a martyr complex about it, whether I was

in the Chimp's forces or not

[CatWoman]

66. I'm kinda lost

help me out, Baby :D

[matcom]

67. "Insurgents"

your original title IMHO disqualifies the discussion.

"insurgents" is a propaganda term.

substitute "Iraqi citizens protecting their homes and country and we can start the discussion"

:eyes:

[trumad]

74. You're right Mat

but to most Americans, Insurgents are the bad guys.

[matcom]

77. so...... i assume your REAL question is as follows:

How would you feel if say, Janeane Garofalo, posed with the Iraqi Citizens trying to protect their country from an invading force?

my answer: "God speed Janeane. You are a hero."

[trumad]

90. So is that how you feel about Jane Fonda?

She was only posing with Viet Nam soldiers trying to protect their country from an invading force?

[matcom]

91. love Jane Fonda

is this the same a 'Nam?

were/are we the "invading force"?

were/are we "justified"?

you tell me

ON EDIT: if you AGREE with my revised question posed above then FUCK YES i support it If you don't, would YOU defend YOUR country if someone attacked?

[trumad]

96. Mat....

You are speaking to a veteran of the United States Army, and if you and others find it perfectly OK for Jane Fonda or any other American celeb to mug with the people trying to kill the American Soldiers, then I feel fucking sorry for you people.

[matcom]

101. Trumad....

YOU are speaking to a VETERAN of the UNITED STATES ARMY and if YOU find it perfectly ok to support an ILLEGAL WAR (at all costs) then YOU SHOULD RE-UP and FIGHT.

i feel MORE fucking sorry for YOU pal and NOW you have ROYALLY PISSED ME OFF.

who the FUCK do you think you are?

[matcom]

110. kick

c'mon.

[trumad]

111. On second thought

[matcom]

112. i really love you

so much for my "fulda gap" service. really i'm a liberal and i LOVE YOU!

;)

now the mods can't delete my REAL post where i REALLY express my LOVE for you

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[trumad]

113. on second thought

[DS1]

114. OMG

Awww, posting in the lounge doesn't make one a battle-hardened keyboard commando in your weathered eyes?

Oh my, you have such a significantly tall horse :P

[trumad]

117. Oh I knew you'd fucking jump in

you're always lurking arent ya?

[DS1]

118. Yeah, I got 30,000 plus posts by lurking

I am the David Blaine of DU

[matcom]

115. how about i KICK YOUR ASS with my little weird stories?

would that make you feel like LESS of a woman than you REALLY are?

just wondering

[VelmaD]

119. Gee...that was about the most condescending thing I've seen posted...

in quite a while. I better NEVER see your happy ass in the Lounge trash-talking about football ever again. Since obviously one can't post in the Lounge and expect to be taken seriously. :eyes:

[DS1]

121. Exactly.

How are you doing, fellow lounge-cowering feeble-brain? :eyes:

Funny how the "pros" always seem to resort to lounge bashing when they've got nowhere else to go.

Wahh, you're from other there. Wahh, you post cute and amusing news stories. Wahh, you don't tough it out every day in GD like us tough guy toughs.

Because all of this is soooooo relevant.

[trumad]

127. Ahhhh anger got the best of me.

When you're accused of false patriotism and a supporter of the war, you tend to spout all kinds of shit in defense.

[matcom]

122. oh my

too scared to publicly post what you PMed me?

fucking chicken-shit :eyes:

[trumad]

124. No Mat.

I thought that I'd like to stay around DU a little longer and not let my anger at you ruin that. So let me get this straight, you think I'm a freeper and that I'm pro WAR in Iraq...did I get that right?

[VelmaD]

125. Oh now you can't tease like that..

especially not in GD. ;)

[flvegan]

123. Pulled it back after trashing folks that hang in The Lounge?

The Edit is nice. But then, what do you care if you piss off a Lounge lizard? Nice. Real nice.

[trumad]

126. Bullshit.

I trashed one dude and that was Matcom. But then again, it was eqaul trashing.

[flvegan]

128. No you didn't, and you know it. eom.

[VelmaD]

129. I call bullshit...

put your original posts back up. They're gone now but I'll remember that you repeatedly told Matt to "go back to the lounge" and "post his cute little stories". You were condescending and no amount of editing your posts is gonna change that fact.

[trumad]

131. Ahhh velma

come on.... You're saying your sweet matthew is clean in this...errr OK.. Whatever.

[VelmaD]

133. Oh that is too goddamn funny...

if you paid any attention you'd know that Matt and I have had some of the most legendary fights EVER on DU over sexist language. He's not my "sweet", not all the time anyway...though he is my friend. And he's right this time. You tried to throw your military service in his face as if that made your opinion more valid than other mere mortals'.

Unfortunately for you, this time you picked someone with military service of his own to tangle with.

[trumad]

137. No..I tried to throw my military service in the faces of the people

who think it's all right to pose with the people trying to kill U.S Soldiers.

That's who I threw my military service at and mat was one of them.

[VelmaD]

138. My point is you shouldn't throw you service in the face of anyone

It doesn't automatically make your opinion more valid.

[trumad]

139. This is the post that started it

You are speaking to a veteran of the United States Army, and if you and others find it perfectly OK for Jane Fonda or any other American celeb to mug with the people trying to kill the American Soldiers, then I feel fucking sorry for you people.

You know what... I wasn't throwing my military service at anybody.... I was telling people that this vet thinks it sucks to mug with the people trying to kill U.S Soldiers.

I'm sticking by my statement and if you and matt get bent because it appears that I'm disparaging Matt's service, then so be it.

[VelmaD]

141. Sorry, but reading the whole exchange...

left me with the feeling that you brought up your service in a way that implied you must be right just because you served. You felt it necessary to bring your veteran status into the conversation to strengthen your argument.

And then of course Matt called you on it and all hell broke lose.

And it left me wondering how you would have reacted if it had been me instead of Matt. Would my opinion have meant nothing because I'm not a veteran?

[trumad]

143. There you go again.....

I am a Vet... OK..got it? It pisses me off more that a non Vet when people pose with the enemy or whoever is trying to kill US soldiers. That's why I brought up my military service.

[matcom]

144. and MY service means NOTHING because i dissagree

right. got that in BASIC. :eyes:

[DS1]

152. That's the right-wing argument against John Kerry

correct or not. It doesn't matter what his intentions were.

That's another thing you're leaving out of the question.

[matcom]

130. "equal?"

well you sure as hell backed off when you thought you could throw your "service" in my face when i had a different opinion

then, when you remembered that i has SERVICE under my belt as well, you panicked

tough shit. we vets aren't all "YES DRILL SARGENT" any more

like i said. get your ass out there and fight coward.

[trumad]

132. But I don't support the war Mat.

Why do you keep saying go fight? It's a horrible strawman. You've been calling me a coward and one with false patriotsim ...but I say go back to the lounge and you get all whiny.

Now let me say it again mat...

I don't support this war, I support the troops... Is that so fucking hard to understand?

[matcom]

142. my PM reply to your bullshit

will NOT disparage your service. (although you are QUICK to disparage mine). THAT is what separates you from me.

that tells me more about you than i care to know. you have convinced me that NO Vet is as good as YOUR Vet :eyes:

enjoy your 'selectivity' :eyes:

[bloom]

147. But do you support troops

who are carrying out war crimes? That is the question I would like answered.


How do you deal with that?

[VelmaD]

149. That is an excellent question...

to which I too would like an answer.

[DS1]

151. I'd like point out that it's an excellent question because

it's black and white - like the OP. See below for further thoughts on the matter. It's inflammatory in nature, again just like the OP

[bloom]

156. It could only be considered inflammatory

if you thought there was some question about there being war crimes.

I don't have that question.

It's an illegal war from the get go - preemptive, baseless.

The US military has tortured people - also illegal.

The The US military has killed journalists - illegal.

The US military has destroyed hospitals - illegal.

The US military has destroyed priceless historical artifacts - illegal.

While it is true that not every one in uniform has committed all of these acts - the entire war is baseless and anyone there should have known that when they went. People with a conscience can leave - illegally or not. But it's their choice - illegally killing people or illegally NOT killing people.

Of course - as I've stated - it's the people in the White House who are ultimately responsible. And they are counting on remaining unaccountable.

[VelmaD]

150. oops...double post

[rman]

176. The people killing American Soldiers are in the WH

they were back then, and they are now.

[Jacobin]

84. Thank you. That's it in a nutshell

[countingbluecars]

68. I wouldn't like it,

but it wouldn't bother me as much as seeing Lyndie England with a naked insurgent.

[stanwyck]

69. Faux News just reported

that Janeane posted with the insurgents as they were making a roadside bomb.
What? You thought they actually got facts before they reported something?
Hey, this is the "news" network that referred to Bush as a "fighter pilot in 'Nam".
And Hannity referred to Jeff "Guckert" Gannon as a "distinguished journalist".

[Gormy Cuss]

73. I'd say it would derail Jane Fonda's bus tour

In her biodiesel bus, protesting the Iraq war.

(referencing this thread over in Breaking News.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1652307&mesg_id=1652307

In all seriousness, I don't want to think any liberal would be that dumb. Republican members of Congress, on the other hand...

[Tactical Progressive]

79. What would you say to the 98,000 Americans on the Vietnam wall

- or let's just say, to the families of the additional 40,000 Americans on that wall - had the Vietnam war not been stopped due to the change in public opinion that anti-war protesters and activists created?

I guess you'd say, tough shit 40,000 families - at least nobody acted indecorously in trying to stop that war. At least nobody went overboard and ended up with any bad photo-ops.

What can anyone ever say to all the rabid Fonda-haters and Kerry-haters and in general all the anti-war haters who'd be long-dead if it wasn't for that movement, which may have overdone it at times? They hate the very people who probably saved many of their lives. They might not have any way of knowing that they'd be dead right now if it hadn't been for those risk-takers, but rest assured if that war had continued, many of them would be.

[Jacobin]

92. thank you thank you thank you

What escapes most people, even many on this board, is that if it weren't for Jane Fonda and millions of activists who worked to stop the Viet Nam calamity, we would STILL be there, with 'light at the end of the tunnel' etc.

Hundreds of thousands more american soldiers would have been slaughtered for NOTHING.

[WilliamPitt]

145. Just FYI

It's 58,000 Americans on that wall.

[Tactical Progressive]

165. Did you read the post

or just the subject line?

I know how many Americans died in Vietnam. What I don't know and you don't know, is how many Americans would have died in Vietnam without the anti-war movement. There could well have been 158,000 names on that wall, a three-times bigger wall of course, if that war had received the kind of mindless 'You're a traitor if you don't want to fight against who we say is the enemy.' that passes for national reasoning now. Fight the North Vietnamese there so we don't have to fight them over here.

It took a major anti-war effort, in the streets, in the media, and at the dinner table, back then, to bring the Vietnam war to a halt. Without it, how much longer would it have lasted and how many more would have died? It's all speculation but it's fair to say that it would have been more than 58 thousand.

So, did the anti-war movement get out of hand? Was there trespassing and vandalism and violence? Were there other excesses? You bet, and Jane Fonda's photo with the AA battery was one of them. She wasn't wrong to go there and spotlight what effects American bombing was having, any more than a journalist, if we had any in the United States, would be to give coverage to what has become of Iraq now in the aftermath of our liberation. She fucked up and got caught up in a bad photo-op. She apologized. She didn't cause the war. She didn't kill anybody. She was part of an effort that stopped a war and stopped the killing. She and those in that movement might have saved 100,000 American lives, even with her and their excesses.

But that doesn't make any difference to people who need someone to blame for what what they can't understand, nor to those who need to paint anti-war efforts as traitorous.

[WilliamPitt]

167. You are quite correct

My bad.

[Eric J in MN]

80. Can you change your question to "contemporary actress"

instead of bashing Janeane Garofalo in a hypothetical?

[Booster]

81. How did you feel when Sean Penn went over to Iraq? I think

posing with insurgents and smiling while protesting the war would be a stupid thing to do, but I just don't think I'd hate the person for doing it. I really do believe Jane Fonda had an enormous effect on the Viet Nam war, but sometimes her actions were borderline stupid.
But she DID get her point across and I would say woke up a lot of people just by getting the attention she got. She has apologized for that one stupid act in Viet Nam, but I'll bet she doesn't regret not getting involved rather than sitting on her butt doing nothing.

[Ready2Snap]

82. How would I feel?

It won't matter how I'll feel! It won't affect me.

But it's a ridiculous idea for several reasons:

1- The Arab media would be all over it.(Bet you kow how they'd feel!)
It would do no good here, and possibly a lot of harm there.

2- Even if you could be sure that all the Arabs in the picture were Iraqis, and not infiltrating terrorists,
once the picture got out, you'd have no control over what it was used for or what was said about it.

3- MAKING A ROADSIDE BOMB? Are you fuckin' nuts?
That's what got Fonda in so much trouble - sitting in that AAG -
implying she would shoot down U.S. planes. IEDs - same thing!

That's the part Fonda said was what she regretted doing, not going there,
but giving the appearance she would fight against U.S. forces.
And that's what she apologized for.

And if you are a Freeper troll and/or somehow missed it,
her apology for having done just that was all over TV just a while back.
Not that it helped much. She was slammed all over again by the wingnuts.

Even if someone went for a photo-op with members of the Iraqi government,
it would only make those people more highly sought after targets for assassination by the crazies.

Bottom line - No good could come from it, period!

[MrSlayer]

85. I'd say she is a traitor as well as a fool bent on self destruction.

Would anyone be so stupid as to do this as Jane Fonda was back in 'Nam? Denounce the war but do not fraternize with the enemy.

[Jacobin]

93. "Enemy"? "Enemy?"

Gee, I thought the Iraqis were our friends and we were there to liberate them?

Its painful to have your government do illegal things and send our friends and relatives to get in the line of fire to do it.

I'll grant you that.

German citizens in the 1940's had to cheer their sons on in war too......I'll bet that was hard.....

Do you see where I am going?

Until we recognize who the real enemy is...The neo cons who took over our government....we are screwed.

[KC_25]

104. Enemy is easy for a soldier

If a person is trying to kill you, it is safe to assume that they are your enemy.

I'd bet that if I tried to kill you, you would hastily assume that I was your enemy. I know that if you tried to kill me I would assume that you were mine.

[MrSlayer]

106. I agree with you.

But going and posing with those who are trying to kill our soldiers, whether justified or not, is not a good thing and can only have negative impact.

[mitchtv]

163. the traitors are Bush, Cheney, etc

let's be clear about where the treason lies. With the lying liars, and DLC Dems too

[roguevalley]

171. An aside in the conversation: She apologized for it, considers it

her biggest life mistake, wasn't aware that the propogandists were there and if we are indeed a 'Christian nation' then we need to consider if we can indeed forgive. She has apologized most heart-felt. When is enough enough?

[DanCa]

86. I see your point but let me counter it .

Would you approve of Sean Hannity bombing abortion clinics? Or doing his show from a hospice which he did. And your right I wouldnt like that if she did it one bit.

[Toots]

87. This is a different time and a different war

Who are the insurgents? 55% of Iraqis killed have been women and children under twelve. Would I be upset if a Liberal posed with Iraqi women and children? Hardly.

[G_j]

88. Vietnam war casualties: approximately 5.1 MILLION

too bad people's memories are so selective..

Vietnamese casualties are far less specific than American casualties and they were deliberately falsified prior to 1995, leading to some of the confusion. According to the Agence France Presse (French Press Agency)
as reported on http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html , "...the true
civilian casualties of the Vietnam War were 2,000,000 in the north,
and 2,000,000 in the south. Military casualties were 1.1 million
killed and 600,000 wounded in 21 years of war. These figures were
deliberately falsified during the war by the North Vietnamese
Communists to avoid demoralizing the population."

So approximately 5.1 million total Vietnamese casualites.

And a grand total of approximately 5.4 million.

Another reference coroborrating this number is at:
http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/casualty.html

Search terms: vietnam war casualties

[peace4all]

170. that is 5.1 million total Vietnamese casualites.

the subject line is not clear

It is disturbing to me how many bitch about Fonda and how few even know that 5.1 million Vietnamese were killed in the war.

severe tunnel vision, I'd say

[bloom]

95. You mean if she posed with the people that we are liberating

the people we are bringing freedom to?

Did we specify which Iraqis we were bringing freedom to?

Why should we NOT be on the side of the people we are bringing freedom to?

Someone is going to have to redefine the war to being one where we are fighting against the Iraqis for this to be an issue.

IOW - they are going to have to stop lying.

[KC_25]

100. you have to be kidding me right?

If someone is building a bomb and she poses with them...you need to clarification as to what they are really doing?
If they build a roadside bomb to ambush a US convoy that's ok...
but if they get a busload of kids instead that is not?


I need a lot of clarification here.
She poses with people trying to kill American servicemen/women that is ok, and is not treason? In fact..she is a heroine?
She poses with folks that are blowing up civilians that is not ok and would be bad?

Seriously,
Being against the war is one thing, actively supporting the demise of American servicemen/women is another entirely, which is exactly what she would be doing, much the same way that fonda did.

[bloom]

105. The whole thing is one big war crime

If you are on the side of the people that the crime is being committed against - how is that the wrong side?

Am I supposed to support the criminals?

Of course I hold Bush&Co. responsible - and I agree with Chomsky - they are the ones who should face the death penalty. If I believe that - how am I supposed to be against the people the crime is being committed against?

It would be better to pose with people who look more like victims - for PR purposes - but I think they are all victims.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

98. Hmmm, I'd feel like . . .

a Krispy Kreme and a Guiness. And, yes, in that order.

Why the fuck would I care? It would really mean very little to me.

I know the example is supposed to be arbitrary, but a more hits-close-to-home arbitrary example would be more helpful to get anything more than utter apathy out of me.

[fujiyama]

99. I'd think she's fuckin stupid

and would hope that AAR would disassociate with her because she'd be a huge liability for the left.

But Garafalo isn't stupid and doesn't seem so obsessed with herself as Jane Fonda is.

[yurbud]

103. it would be inappropriate and counter-productive

but it is legitimate to say you understand why people might resist the occupation, and ask people to put themselves in the insurgents shoes. Back in the 80s, there was a movie that did just that: RED DAWN. It closely parallels the plot of the classic Muslim insurgency movie, THE BATTLE OF ALGIERS.

I just posted a poll about Jane Fonda, which is probably what inspired your thought.

Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[DS1]

135. I'd like to hear your answer

I haven't seen it anywhere in this thread yet. That's all.

[trumad]

140. Oh ok...

I think a free human being can do what they want.

But I think if that human being was a celeb and posed with people trying to kill U'S Soldiers, then they should suffer the rath of their stupidity.

[DS1]

148. I think that's the flaw in the question

Theres an element of people out there that are doing the last thing they should be doing to get the U.S. out - blowing up the support forces, civilians eating at the local Bistro, and police recruits. Obviously posing for pictures for people like that would be a stupid thing to do, it's a non-issue, and a non-question. Yet, there are undoubtedly people that have taken up arms, like they have in Fallujah, when an outside military force surrounded the city, picks off anyone trying to leave by night with snipers, and slaughters ~anyone~ they deem as a threat.

So if you were to define the difference between the two in the initial question, you might not get such a hostile response. But you knew that all along, didn't ya ;-)

edit to change thread to threat - oops

[rman]

178. Seriously, who's ultimately responsible for those deaths,

the corporate cronies in the WH who benefit from war, or the people send to war to do the actual fighting?
Enemy soldiers, in spite of the fact that they want to kill us, are as much a victim as our troops are, in spite of the fact that they want to kill the enemy.
The real enemy is not the have-nots on the other side of the frontline, the real enemy are "the haves and the have-mores" as Bush would put it.

Somehow I was under the impression that you are aware that "War is a racket". http://warisaracket.org/

[Zero Division]

136. Another useful idiot for the right wing is what I'd say.

Just because an armed combatant is fighting an unjust occupation, doesn't mean they're ultimately fighting for the rights of the people being occupied.

Just imagine how you would feel as citizen of an occupied United States if someone from another country who opposed the occupation supported people like the Minutemen, Patriot Militias, Christian Identity, etc. simply because these racist nazis were fighting an armed battle against the occupation. Would you call them a hero? Hell no.

[bloom]

153. "Just imagine how you would feel"

Lets' pretend that the country Xnay had occupied us. It would be like if someone from the country of Xnay posed with one of us in support of us fighting the Xnayans. How would that be a bad thing for us?

And if they posed with Americans who were fighting the Xnayans AND those people were fighting against Americans who wanted to join with the Xnayans - the result would be the same - not a bad thing.

[Zero Division]

158. I'd never consider those who fought in order to impose

their own fascistic rule to be "one of us". The enemy of my enemy is not always a good ally, even in the fight against a common enemy.

[David Zephyr]

155. So the DU's now a bulletin board for attacks against the Left?

Your attacking Jane Fonda here plays more into helping the right-wing than her opposition against Bush's war ever will.

This thread is beneath you, trumad.

[mitchtv]

164. Didn't you know?

support our troops like it or not. This has become the DLC board.

[Misunderestimator]

208. I find myself agreeing with you again.

Tru's a friend, but this is beneath him.

[KoKo]

211. Would many of these same people attacking Fonda now attack John Kerry?

We just went through an election where Kerry's position on the Vietnam war was villified successfully. Yet, many of the same people attacking Fonda were probably horrified at the Swift Boat Liar's success. You can't have it both ways. Maybe some of these people posting crap about Fonda supported someone else...like maybe Lieberman? :eyes:

I can't believe I'm seeing this long thread on DU attacking Fonda. Will Marshall's talking points seem to be taking root.

[leftofthedial]

160. what would Jeneane be wearing

when she posed?

[Kalish]

166. It wouldn't happen

They'd kidnap her and probably eventually kill her for propaganda purposes.

[jonnyblitz]

174. the only people I ever knew to freak over her have been wingnuts

until I came to DU. :eyes:

[DS1]

175. even the mods recognize this is flame-junk

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4188597&mesg_id=4188609

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

179. I agree with you wholeheartedly. n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

186. Keep that initial opinion. It is still accurate. (nt)

[dogday]

183. Just posting before the thread is locked

I have no input to this ...

[Endangered Specie]

184. To be honest, I wouldnt care that much, sure it would be quite stupid

but its hardly the worst thing in the world you could do.

And besides, maybe if she dressed sexy enough, she would distract them and their IUD would be a dud. :sarcasm:

[K-W]

202. Commend her courage, question her judgement. EOM

[kiki]

204. I'd think:

"Janeane looks hot in those shorts."

:D

[Zorra]

206. I'd feel a lot worse if she posed with Bu*h. n/t

[donheld]

209. Can i vote this post as the crappiest?

:shrug: