Post office patron just went ballistic on me...Re/ Torture photos

[BeHereNow]

WOW DU, I just had the most interesting encounter
at my local post office.

I was standing in a very long line and a fellow in
line behind me and I started chatting, casual small talk
at first and then the subject of the global state of affairs.

I am fairly cautious in these types of encounters due
to the polarity of beliefs in this country- you just never know
if you are talking to an informed person or a Fox News addict,
and let's face it, these days, people are nuts.

I let him do most of the talking initially, so I could get
a reading on which side of the divide he lived-
To my relief, he seemed to be fairly informed and
distressed about the direction our country was going-
He could have been a DUer actually UNTIL the subject
of the Torture Photos came up...

People, realize this:
Even the "informed" among us are unaware of this
and in particular, the allegations of the rape.

He WENT NUTS! I thought he was going to hit me.
He said, "That's a lie- that isn't true, that didn't happen!"

People in the line were starting to stare, he got so upset.

I calmly told him that I wasn't claiming to have seen the photos
or videos, that I was relaying what Seymour Hersh had written
having seen them himself.

He said, "Seymour Hersh is a Pulitzer Prize winner- I don't
believe he wrote that, how could he have written that
and no other media picked up on it!"

He was so upset and declared that he was going to
look it up as soon as he got home, he all but
called me a big fat liar and warned me that
I had better be careful what I said.
I told him I was saying what I had read
and that I had no reason to believe that
Seymour was a liar.
I actually felt sorry for him because
I basically nearly caused his head to explode
all over the post office walls.

The point of this story?

Can you imagine what is going to happen if
these photos are released?

I am telling you, people have no idea and the
very thought of it, much less the proof, was enough
to send even someone who seemed fairly aware
into a rage at me for even suggesting such a thing
had happened.

BHN

[MissB]

1. Cognitive dissonance on a mass scale.

It wouldn't be pretty.

[BeHereNow]

7. He knew about the previous photos,

Had seen them and was rational in his
discussion about them.
I assumed he knew about the second batch
and the fact that the ACLU has filed FOIA on them.

He knew nothing about it.

BHN

[SpiralHawk]

95. I'll bet he went home and googled Hersch and the torture phots

and is getting an ugly education right now about what the Bush/Republican cabal has done in his name and with his tax money -- torture, rape, humiliation, sodomy, murder. And children are involved.

This he will learn tonight. And I expect he will be ferociously mad when he is done learning -- but not at you, at his government and the inexcusable shame they have enacted on other human beings in the name of the citizens of the United States of America.

[lostnfound]

129. Technical point: I don't believe Hersh has WRITTEN about it yet

He spoke about the content of the 2nd batch of photos in a couple of speeches -- I saw a replay on DemocracyNow! -- and others have written down what he said, but I don't think he personally has actually written about it.

In this speech from the ACLU he speaks about the content; and he also says that the New Yorker has chosen not to write about it not for reasons of censorship but for reasons of "how much can you levy on Arab manhood, in public?"
There's also an interesting quote from a 'hardened Israeli' saying "we hate the Arabs, and the Arabs hate us, and before 1948, we’ve been killing Arabs, and they’ve been killing us. But I have to tell you something, he said. We know somewhere down the line, we’re going to have to live with these people, much as we can’t stand them, they’re going to have to be our neighbors. And if we had done in our prisons to the Arabs what you have done to the Arabs in your prisons, we couldn’t live that way."
It's chilling to think that the Bushies have perhaps already ensured a 1000-yr war against Americans.

And I can tell you it was much worse, and the government knows it's much worse, than they’ve even told you. There are worse photos, worse videotapes, worse events. To The New Yorker’s credit we decided, not for censorship, but just how much can you, how much can you levy on Arab manhood, in public?
http://www.pastpeak.com/archives/2004/07/post_1.htm

[Swamp Rat]

130. Oops! Look again.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/10/11_hersh.shtml

[lostnfound]

132. To be more specific..

he has not written about the kid (or kids) being sodomized. He has spoken of it on more than one occasion (like the interviews in 2 of your links), and he has written about the torture of adults (like his groundbreaking article in May 2004 which is your first link) but he has not written about the kids - not that I know of, at least.

When he writes, I pay attention. We have yet to see him write the details of the worst of the photos or videos.

[Swamp Rat]

133. OK

Thanks for clarifying. I should have assumed you read the New Yorker article because we DUers are an educated lot... but after a few hours of wading through a sea of zombies I forget to whom I'm talkin'. :D :hi:

[lostnfound]

134. hey..

LOL. There's plenty that falls right through the cracks in this creaky zombie brain, but I do pay attention to Hersch after seeing how much another hero of mine -- Amy Goodman -- pays attention to him.
His interviews are always informative.
I wasn't even sure if it was worth mentioning that he hadn't written about it. But sometimes a small detail can affect perceptions that people have.
:hi:

[evolved Anarchopunk]

136. that has to be one of my fav. pics of yours yet Swamp Rat-

she is just waiting for the most well-known mass-murdering hEllephant of her time to come on stage and just fill that void in her life. I love your disgust. I consider myself a free-lovin hippie again nowadays (fuck it, i am a hippie), but allow me to meditate- your picture as the setting- on my contempt for soulless enablers such as the one depicted above. Good Americans? i dont see how they belong anywhere else....

[Swamp Rat]

138. Yaay for post-structuralist anarchists!

Love it! ... I mean FAR OUT man! ... We be ridin' da same vibe brother! ;)

Don't worry about the "soulless enablers" my friend. Nature has a way of taking care of it. :)



I'm glad you enjoy my pix because I certainly do... it's free entertainment for HOURS with a big ol' catharsis thang at the end. :D

[Greeby]

2. Hmm

What was it Hoover said?: "The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists."

[Eric J in MN]

4. Herbert Hoover? J. Edgar Hoover? nt

nt

[Frederik]

16. J Edgar

[Eric J in MN]

17. Was he talking about communism? nt

nt

[Frederik]

28. Dunno.

But the quote is usually attributed to him, I don't know what the context was.

[RagAss]

9. The Awakening .--.. Takes no prisoners.

[noamnety]

3. Thanks for engaging people in conversations

People need to be shocked. You did good.

[BeHereNow]

12. And almost got my ass kicked!

Just for telling him about it!
BHN:yoiks:

[leftchick]

20. I am so glad you did noy get your Ass kicked BHN!

fuck! Even the informed are uninformed! :crazy:

[BeHereNow]

27. Yes, you get it!

That is the point of the post!
And IF they are like this guy, all hell
is going to break loose if those photos and
videos are made public.
And I am glad I didn't get my ass kicked too!
I ran to my car...cause I thought I might!
BHN:hide:

[Al-CIAda]

105. That is because the press is COMPLICIT in the coverup and we

pay the price. Without an informed citizenry, democracy cannot function.

[noamnety]

22. That part's scary

But good for him for being outraged by it! (easy for me to say, I know)

I hope he does indeed go home and look it up.

[BeHereNow]

32. He will FREAK when he realizes I didn't make it up.

GOOD- I hope he tells ten other people!
BHN

[tblue37]

78. But if he did go home and look it up,

then he found Hersh's information on it. Then, as angry as he was at the very idea of it, he would probably direct that anger at the administration, and then go around forcefully telling everyone he knows about this new information he has just "discovered."

I showed a RW student of mine, who had been making all those "We're heroes--we liberated the Iraqis" noises, some internet pictures of maimed and killed civilians, including small children and women, in Fallujah. He was stunned. He said, " I thought America was better than that!"

I would show him a picture of a toddler in a hospital bed, whose leg had been blown off, and say, "Look, he has been liberated from his leg," and of a young headless corpse, and say, "And this one has been liberated from his head."

The young man took down the URL of the site to show his friends. He really had no idea.

Heck, even here on DU, I read posts from people who haven't got a clue about a lot of this stuff. And people here are the sort who actually go online to try to get such information.

Just as an example, about half the DUers I see posts from think that Colin Powell is a man of fine character and integrity who has been unfairly besmirched by the administration. They are shocked when I point out that he was the architect of the My Lai cover-up. In fact, some of them don't even know that smarmy, corrupt former FCC chairman Michael Powell is his son.

It's the same with John McCain. They think he is an honest, decent guy, and they fantasize about having him on a Democratic ticket. They don't realize how totally right-wing and dishonest he really is and how totally willing he is to do the misadministration's bidding, even to the point of smearing Wilson and Plame with RNC lies.

If the people who come to places like DU don't have this sort of information, then we should not be surprised when the sort of people who don't spend hours scouring the internet for stuff like this end up not knowing much about anything the administration and the lapdog corporate press don't want them to know.

[Burried News]

84. On behaf of my daughter in the service,

Thanks for being a soldier for the truth.
She has done one tour in the ME and will surely do another.
I told her, when she was over there, to be very careful during her time off less she be abducted. This prisoner abuse is raising the risk tremendously.

I know Senator Warner, that's why you want to cover it up, to protect people like my daughter. Bullshit, stop posturing - put a stop to it.

[BeHereNow]

96. Is that your baby in the picture?

What a beauty- she looks to be not much older
than my own.
How you must miss her-
Mine is getting ready to leave for college-
don't know what I will do with the empty nest...
Probably rescure some more fur critters.
I am up to six now.
Looking at a horse next...
Up to the legal limit for our city
on tail and claw critters-
Time to move to tail and hooves...
heh-heh.
BHN

[SpiralHawk]

100. Get some pigs

you won't regret it. Check it out.


Good old SH, for the Farmers of Tomorrow,
the nation's foundation

Speaking of that, didn't see a damn word about farms or farmers in the DLC's alleged Vision Statement

[BeHereNow]

101. Not zoned for pigs...but I can do horses!

Too bad, I like pigs so much that I have not
eaten a one since I was twelve.
Vegetarian who got to "know" the beauty of
livestock animals from my hillbilly relatives.
Most beautiful people I have ever known.
Of course, they don't understand my view of
eating our fur friends, it is a way of life for them,
but they don't judge, they live and let live,
until they need the meat to eat, that is.
LOL
BHN

[Burried News]

120. She looks like mine, but it isn't her.

Thanks for asking

[jsamuel]

5. yep...

the truth needs to be told

no matter how it makes us feel

[eleny]

6. Can you imagine when he reads some of Hersh on this?

Even if he goes into denial at first, he evidently feels very strongly. Hopefully, he'll turn all that energy into contacting members of congress.

[BeHereNow]

18. He expressed great respect for Hersh

but wanted to kill me for saying Hersh had written
that it happened...go figure.
BHN

[eleny]

33. I'm glad that you're okay

[BeHereNow]

42. Thanks, me too-

I was really scared actually- I was glad that
I have training for dealing with people who
are out of control.
I work with big teenagers (Gang types) who
have, shall we say, anger management problems.
That was the vibe I got from this guy- EXPLOSIVE anger
at the very idea that something like that had happened.


BHN

[Nothing Without Hope]

104. I suspect he was so upset, his first reaction was massive denial and you

were the messenger of this horrible news and the only possible target at that moment. I think that if you had been together a bit longer, his rage would have been redirected. But good that you got to your car - people are unpredictable when their worlds are suddenly turned upside-down.

[BeHereNow]

106. Yes, he wanted to "shoot the messenger" rather than deal with the message

Understandable-
That is why I kept pressing, gently, that I had
READ it- and that the author was Sy Hersh.
He has probably found it online by now and is
having a meltdown...
Which is what I would expect of any decent
citizen in this country.

I think sometimes, because we have lived in DU world
for so long that we forget just what it is like for someone
just waking up to all of the facts.

Still wishing I had given him the link to DU, he would have
certainly fit in here, I was just too scared of his over-the-top
reaction.
Fight or flight, fight or flight.
Absolutely a normal human reaction when learning
that everything you thought was true, isn't.
BHN

[Nothing Without Hope]

107. So you saw the "tipping point" with that man - I wonder how many

other people those photos would take past that point at last?

Willful ignorance is a real comfort when the full truth is so horrifying. And once the eyes begin to open, there are all those other terrible things to see. Scandal upon scandal, with more to come and no easy way out.

[BeHereNow]

111. My guess is, the MAJORITY.

And I would also assume that this is the
VERY reason the KKKabal is fighting tooth and nail
to keep them from the public.
I remember the massacre in Vietnam and
the public reaction to the that- so does the
Bush KKKabal.
Abu Ghraib abuse documentation equals "Calley" to them.
A TOTAL DISASTER in public support for Iraq debacle
and a demand for resignation for those ultimately
in charge and covering it up.
BHN

[Nothing Without Hope]

117. Here's a painting to accompany your words:

The horror of war has always been a dark inspiration for artists - who can forget Goya's images or Picasso's "Guernica"?

Artist web site here: http://www.coolon.net

http://www.allhatnocattle.net.nyud.net:8090/usa_WAR.jpg

This image is alll the more appropriate since apparently napalm has been used in Iraq. In the famous original photo (by Nick Ut) of that fleeing Vietnamese girl, she had shed her burning clothing.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x135363
Thread title: "Incinerating Iraqis: The napalm cover up"

[BeHereNow]

119. Oh yes, the power of visual art and imagery-

Hitler declared some of the greatest artists
of the day to be "degenerate artists."
I'm sure the artist in your link would be considered
so by Hitler and the KKKabal.
The photos and videos are visual imagery too-
and like Hitler, the KKKabal understand the impact
they would have on the public, were they ever made public.
I am sure they are quaking in fear at the prospect that someone,
somewhere has copies and is working on a way to release them
anonymously...
I certainly hope so, because it may be the ONLY way
to stop what is happening.
BHN

[noiretextatique]

8. people don't want to believe america, the great and beautiful

is responsible for such inhumanity. they do not want to believe it...they will fight believing it...they may not ever believe it.
it explains so much about why we are where we are.

[BeHereNow]

23. And that relates to the point of my telling you guys-

This guy was definitely on the "Left" politically
and certainly more informed than the average
person in the line- but honey, he blew like a freeper
on the news.
Scarey...
BHN:scared:

[noiretextatique]

45. i was talking about people

on DU too :scared: someone in another thread is going on about how posing naked men in sexual positions isn't *really*....
people here were defending the shooting of the brazillian man in london, and some still are...
people here defend even the insane use of tasers (like on handcuffed children)
i don't think the left is immune from cognitive dissonance about this country and its allies.

[BeHereNow]

50. Scary, aint it? N/T

BHN

[noiretextatique]

51. yes eom

[eleny]

48. This past week and a half have been tough

When W nominated Roberts, my spirit tanked. I started watching home fix up & science shows on tv or gentle movies to try and ride it out - along with emailing news outlets and congress. I was so on edge and down. Not like the guy in your encounter. But things have reached the "it's too much" stage. I just have to wonder about that guy. So much happening and we can't seem to stop it. Like a runaway train.

It's good you have training in calming situations down.

[kliljedahl]

10. That's almost a scary story on so many levels.

Not only for what you had to go through, but how it underscores the complete and utter ignorance for most people of what is really going on in the US & the world. Unfortunately, I think people like him are the majority.


Keith’s Barbeque Central

[BeHereNow]

26. No, he was definitely more informed than most-

That is the point of the story!
That is what was so frightening about the encounter-
He knew a great deal about the machinations of
the KKKabal, but he could NOT wrap his mind
around this piece of news.
He went into a rage.
BHN

[kliljedahl]

38. Did you tell him about the ACLU being stonewalled?

And Rummy's statements about the photos?


Keith’s Barbeque Central

[BeHereNow]

44. "Yes" on ACLU FOAI and "No" on Rummy

I didn't get the chance to tell him about Rummy-
he was way too escalated.
BHN

[Kelvin Mace]

11. This is the reason that BushCo

is fighting so hard to keep the pictures hidden.

They know that once the photos get out, they lose all moral high ground and people will demand that the people responsible be prosecuted. And this time it won't stop with privates and corporals.

[CrispyQ]

25. Yes,

it will be hard for even fat a-hole Rush to state that raping children is no worse than a fraternity prank.

[BeHereNow]

37. Yep, yep and YEP.

And IF the pictures are released, people
are smart enough to realize why they fought
so hard to keep them from public view.

We need a LEAKER right about NOW.
This will take them down, without a doubt.

Americans, left and right will FREAK out
if these pictures hit the press.

BHN

[NorCalDem]

13. Yes, people will panic/blow-up/get angry/etc...

that is exactly the response I would hope for, followed by remorse for the victims, and then retribution from those responsible, i.e. BushCo

Honestly, these pictures would destroy the administration, that is why I don't believe we will ever see them before '06, when hopefully a Democratic Senate will FORCE Bush and the Pentagon to give them up.

[Frederik]

14. A caveat

The photos that were ordered released are just a sample of all the photos that are in the Defense Depts posession. I think there are close to a thousand photos that are still unreleased. We don't know if the photos that are ordered released are those particular photos. If it is, well, that's going to be something most people are not prepared for.

[Pam-Moby]

15. I can feel for you.

Been there and done that myself. I have a real hard time dealing with repukes. Its like they are programed to the repuke talking point. Nonsense. The look on my face gives it away. Brain dead.

[Just Me]

19. Well, such things are so disturbing.

No American who genuinely cares about being a good influence in this world wants to believe such absolute evil is taking place as a result of a criminal governance. It's just too much.

:hug: Sounds like you still may have reached him, though. Some truths are just so painful. We have to prepare ourselves for these type of reactions and realize that they are actually quite normal for those who do not know the extent of barbaric cruelties that have taken place in our name.

[Mandate My Ass]

24. That's my take too. People want to believe we're spreading democracy

yet at the same time with all the scandals breaking one after another, people know on some level something is terribly wrong. When faced with the enormity of it they lash out, even if it's only at the messenger.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

21. The photos must be released

to drive home the point. This kind of thing cannot happen unless allowed to. No one is going to authorize that kind of treatment unless the higher ups approve. Why? Because it violates every human instinct and it's against the law. This will show people our leaders are having the troops do unspeakable, unbelievable things to other human beings in our name, paid for with our tax dollars.
There is a reason that pictures from war zones are censored. It's not that they are too graphic, after all people used to turn out for lynchings, public executions and the like.
Pictures are not released because we would be confronted with the images of OUR people without limbs, bleeding and in horrific pain. Then people would demand an end to this nonsense and the money lovers can't have that! War is good business......

[CrispyQ]

29. You are brave & to be commended, BHN.

We need to speak out when the occasion arises. Kudos to you!

I hope this man really did go home & look this up.

:yourock:

[BeHereNow]

43. More like STUPID and lucky I didn't get my ass kicked!

Based on our conversation, I ASSUMED he knew
about it-
Never assume anything...
You might get your ass kicked!
BHN:scared:

[Rainscents]

30. You should had given him your email address...

and told him to write to you after he found out the truth! At first, he may get very angry and once it sink in to his head, he'll contact you and thank you for information. Who knows, you and he might become good friend.

BTW... You were very brave for engaging in the conversation! :yourock:

[BeHereNow]

46. NO thank you- I prefer to avoid

People who escalate so quickly.
BUT, I should have given him the DU address-
But honestly, he sort of scared me...
BHN

[seabeyond]

31. i had a winger over at my house last night. they will flip if they see

these pictures. this guy is in police security. telling me about local police going to iraq and they arent afraid. i said ya,.....sittin in the green zone with air and water. i am sure they arent. fuck all the citizens. he went at it. how many died with saddam. i concluded, i dont see that we compare ourselves to saddam. that is our low standard, whether we are better than saddam. but i do know we are better than what we are being in iraq

if/when he sees thoses pictures. wont be able to be so dismissive. the people are refusing to see citizens as people. inorder to be their arrogance, allow them to support htis mess. they refuse to see what is happening. those pictures are needed. people need to see

the letter from woman orginization in iraq, asking us women to support htem. they had always had more rights than most in middle east. now, they are losing rights in the new constitution. this shit has to get out

[slaveplanet]

34. Why rely on Hersh?

Read between the lines of the Tabuga report and it lays it all out....

REGARDING PART ONE OF THE INVESTIGATION, I MAKE THE FOLLOWING SPECIFIC FINDINGS OF FACT:

6.)
subsection k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

(hmm, I wonder if it was his witty banter, or stunning good looks that closed that deal?)


8.)
subsection g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

(self explanetory)

[BeHereNow]

52. I swear, it is the AC...

As in the BEAST.
Nothing else comes close to an explanation
for this.
It has been documented and IGNORED.
BHN

[wishlist]

35. Repub Sen. Lindsay Graham said on network TV that rape and murder

and other very serious charges were involved in what the Senators saw on the pics and video and he advocated that it all be released immediately when this scandal first broke. The media has failed us on pursuing the implications.

[janx]

76. I remember his remarks about it in the Senate. He was

visibly upset--VERY upset. Livid.

[tblue37]

86. Yeah,

so why is that repuke doing everything he can to support this criminal administration and to prevent a reckoning?

[Burried News]

88. I don't like Lindsay Graham - hell I'm getting to the point that I don't

like myself - but imagine how much crap he takes from his constituents when he tells the truth. Think he is afraid - damn right he's afraid - they all are afraid. One thing Dallas showed, any of us can be reached, any of us. Every day we tell the truth is a risk. The question is, won't it be a bigger risk tomorrow?

[Warren DeMontague]

36. Does anyone have any idea when the judge is supposed to rule

(presuming he even gets to rule) on the Gov't's last-minute super-secret demand for a FOIA exemption?

[Rainscents]

41. I hope Judge order jail if they don't release the all the photo's and

video. This might make them release it.

[ComerPerro]

39. It won't matter. They will never be released

[BeHereNow]

47. UNLESS, some brave soul figures out

how to LEAK them.
I am counting on the possibility that Hackworth
turned a copy over to someone in his circle.
HOWEVER, who ever has them had better be DAMNED
careful if they decide to leak them...
BHN

[Disturbed]

49. They will be accidently destroyed.

In the 1st releases the Corp Media had two weeks to pick out the least offensive. The DOD asked them to wait for two weeks. The next batch were carefully chosen, as well. Rethugs and Dems in Congress have seen the worst of these and they were horrified. Rethugs and Dems have mainly kept quite about this because both want the Occupation of Iraq to continue for many years. Almost no one wants these photos or videos to be released.

[earth mom]

59. I agree with you...

a fire or something and poof they're gone.

What can we expect from people who have committed so many evil deeds it's unreal?! :puke:

These bastards will stop at NOTHING to reach their goals. :grr:

As it was posted upthread, a LEAK is the only way to get the photos out.

That is, if it's not too late already...

[bloom]

40. The powers that be probably sent it Luntzes focus groups

and found there was no way to spin it.

Seymour Hersh is not the only one to talk about them...

"The images, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress, depict "acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel, and inhuman." After Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.) viewed some of them in a classified briefing, he testified that his "stomach gave out." NBC News reported that they show "American soldiers beating one prisoner almost to death, apparently raping a female prisoner, acting inappropriately with a dead body, and taping Iraqi guards raping young boys." Everyone who saw the photographs and videos seemed to shudder openly when contemplating what the reaction would be when they eventually were made public...."

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/10043

[RagAss]

53. How did Col. Hackworth die ???

[BeHereNow]

55. From his web site:

"Col. David. H. Hackworth,
1930-2005
Legendary U.S. Army Guerrilla Fighter,
Champion of the Ordinary Soldier

Washington, D.C., May 5, 2005 – Col. David
H. Hackworth, the United States Army's
legendary, highly decorated guerrilla fighter
and lifelong champion of the doughboy and
dogface, ground-pounder and grunt, died
Wednesday in Mexico. He was 74 years old.
The cause of death was a form of cancer
now appearing with increasing frequency
among Vietnam veterans exposed to the
defoliants called Agents Orange and Blue."
Link to his site:
http://www.hackworth.com/

Great site to visit, if you never have.
BHN

[RagAss]

63. Thanks Much

I always listened intently to "Hack" over the years whenever he was interviewed on matters related to warfare and policy. Recently, I heard a blurb on the news about his passing on. He was a stand-up guy and a great soldier. I'll miss seeing on him television.

[Warren DeMontague]

57. OTOH, I think we've already seen some of the "acting inappropriately with

a dead body" images:





And the sky didn't fall.

[bloom]

82. It seems to me that more than enough

has come out for everyone to be outraged. And yet some people are not.

Someone told last week that there was "one seemingly isolated instance at Abu Ghraib" and that Democrats and liberals and Muslims have been trying to show there is more but can't. :argh:

I sent him lots of links. I don't know if he looked at anything.

[gulfcoastliberal]

67. Good point. Rumsfeld has admitted there are more, far worse photos

NT

[RagAss]

54. kick

[Ilsa]

56. I was mentioning this to someone today, that i felt torn over the

possibility of a release of these terrible photos. On the one hand, I think people have a right to know exactly what is being done in their names. But I'd hate to see he phoos cause another terrorist attack and have people or soldiers dying over it.

But ultimately, since maby won't believe it until they see it, I think the photos will have to be released.

Congrats on handling that situation well.

[PSPS]

60. That's not necessarily the outcome

Let's face it, hiding the evidence only perpetuates the facade that the media tries to maintain domestically. The rest of the world is far more aware of the true nature of all of this.

Any chance for the US to regain any of its former standing in the world has to begin with the release of everything, regardless of how depraved and shameful it is. Until that happens, people will simply continue to believe that we are trying to "get away" with something.

Further, your assumption that releasing the photos & videos might "cause another terrorist attack and have people or soldiers dying over it" doesn't have to be so at all. How? Very simple. Show the world that the people who did this will not get away with it. Italy strung up the lifeless corpses of their fascists on lamp posts for the world to see. In this present-day case, that's probably not necessary. But I'll tell you one thing: with bush and his cabal continuing to "get away" with these war crimes, you are guaranteed the present state of affairs will "cause another terrorist attack and have people or soldiers dying over it."

[BeHereNow]

65. WELCOME TO DU- Great post-

You are correct in my humble estimation-
Until WE, the PEOPLE acknowledge to the rest of the
world our awareness and willingness to correct what
OUR government has done in OUR names, we will
continue to be reviled as a people.
WE MUST make clear the fact that, in general, this has all been
kept from our awareness, and that once revealed, the fact
that we do not condone it and as a people, hold our leaders
to accountability.
It is the ONLY way to redeem ourselves in the
eyes of the world.
BHN

[Robbien]

74. What a good response!

It is one I plan to adopt when debating the issue.

Thanks.

[Ilsa]

109. It wasn't really an assumption, but a consideration.

I was thinking of it as one more thing to deeply offend and inspire more acts of revenge. But you are correct, they all probably know about it from first hand accounts already. I suspect they'll be even more enraged by the collective apathy of many in the US (certainly not us) after they are released. How do we convince others that impeaching Bush Co will likely stop terrorism? (Great post, BTW)

[mixedview]

58. this is why I don't talk politics with strangers or in public

places where there are many strangers around.

Because you never know what type of nut you are talking to, or which nut is going to overhear and go ballistic.

Especially since I'm somewhat of an independent, and I can easily piss off conservatives or liberals alike without really realizing it.

[BeHereNow]

61. I am REALLY cautious about it these days-

And WELCOME TO DU-

I hear ya, I don't like talking about politics
with strangers either- you just don't know anymore.
People are not rational or reasonable in discourse
as a rule, about anything.

So many people are conflicted-
they have no center and are constantly barraged
by messages/marketing and stimulation in general,
that they have no time to be silent and figure
out who they are or what they know on an intuitive
level.

As a rule, I HATE going into public spaces these days-
Supermarkets, stores or anywhere else.
The energy is SO frenetic- and we all need to
stay centered in the midst of this shitstorm to survive
and that takes effort.

I HAD to get confirmation of delivery notices for the
mail I had to send, otherwise I would have stayed home.
I prefer it here.
I have made a concerted effort to make my home a place
of peace- toxic energies need not EVEN try to apply for
time here in my fortress.
The animals outnumber the people where I live-
That is by design.
BHN

[SlavesandBulldozers]

85. i need a pet

i think you've made me realize i need a dog. this was a great post, absolutely spot-on.

[Patchuli]

123. Dogs and cats and all sorts of animals

take the edge off the world for you. We are outnumbered here too! 3 cats and a dog. They love us unconditionally and we know, they would never willingly leave our sides.

[Old Mouse]

62. we all choose our own acceptable level of reality

Introducing others to an uncomfortable level comes with risk. You are a good and brave person, BHN.

I would rather be killed by a zealot than be defended with rape and torture.

[newswolf56]

64. The true "cognitive dissonance" of the Left is in our grossly mistaken...

assumption that what we ourselves know or believe is common knowledge or belief among in Americans in general. I am exceptionally well informed about most current events and I would know very little about the alleged content of the second set of photos and tapes did I not (1) belong to the ACLU and (2) read DU daily. At least in my geographical area, the corporate media has been nearly silent on this matter, and there has not been one word of Hersh's extremely troubling allegations of child rape; since I live on a seacoast and therefore amidst so-called "civilization," I suspect the news blackout is far more complete throughout the American interior. Furthermore, there is also the fact (3) that the huge cry-wolf uproar over the mere harassment illustrated in the first set of photographs -- and flame away, that is ALL it is -- has in the eyes of most Americans thoroughly discredited the critics of the administration's prisoner-treatment, particularly when the activities thus far illustrated are compared to real Jihadist atrocities like sawing heads off living victims. (The moral equivalence game played by some at our end of the political spectrum -- claiming that making a Muslim wear women's panties on his head is every bit as much an atrocity as a Jihadist sawing through a screaming human's throat -- is not only absurd but infuriating.) Bottom line, I fully understand the postal customer's reaction: given the givens, it is absolutely predictable.

That said, if Hersh is right (and having witnessed this administration's viciousness in other realms, I surely fear Hersh IS right) the reasons behind the administration's illegal defiance are suddenly clear: we are not only talking about war crimes and unequivocal grounds for impeachment, but a probable outpouring of public rage that may have no precedent in U.S. history since the years leading up to the Civil War.

Worse still, in the administration's very defiance we are also -- again if Hersh is right -- moving ever closer to that dread point at which a (presumably) elected executive slides down the slippery slope of illegal activity into a defacto coup.

[BeHereNow]

69. Great post- very perceptive.

I happen to believe all of your points are valid
and accurate.
Thanks-
BHN

[hnsez]

66. that guy was raped - hence his extreme reaction

[BeHereNow]

68. Hmmm...possibly!

His reaction was WAY over the top, for sure.
You may be right, because it certainly "pushed a button"
for him.
BHN

[snot]

70. Hope he went home & googled abu ghraib hersh

And he should have a good start on the road to reality.

[BeHereNow]

72. Yeah, I WISH I would have given him the DU address

but frankly, at that point I was chicken...
He scared me.
BHN

[Tommymac]

71. People don't want their reality disturbed

I was talking to a friend earlier this year....intelligent, fairly well read, solid moderate independent, leans libertarian - not a neo-con. Talk somehow got on 9/11...I mentioned - not endorsed - merely mentioned the LIHOP - not MIHOP - possibilities. He went ballistic! He said that there is no way he could ever believe that...that if he believed anyone in his government could do something like that he would end it all right now. He said his life would not be worth living with the knowledge his President or elected officials could lie where people's death's were all involved. He said he could not live with that knowledge because it would make him feel so hopeless; that his life was wasted. He felt like that if there was such a conspiracy that it was all over anyway - they have complete control and nothing matters anymore. He'd told me he'd rather live with his head in the sand then face that reality. We have not spoken since.

My gawd, I wonder what he will do when this stuff comes out....

The point is not 9/11 LIHOP or MIHOP theories - please don't go there...but the fact that people cannot believe certain things; they have been so thoroughly indoctrinated with the 'knowledge' that America is good and everyone in power always has the best interests of the country in mind And when you finally do show them they are wrong, watch out - the results are unpredictable..

[BeHereNow]

73. "The results are unpredictable" EXACTLY my point.

The fellow I was talking with SEEMED fairly informed,
fairly normal- but you are correct, the extreme realization
that the country we grew up believing in no longer exists
can cause some fairly EXTREME reactions in people.
Look out, here comes the blowback on all SORTS of levels.
BHN

[Tommymac]

75. I dread the day the pics are released...

but the truth must come out. It is not a partisan issue...it is a Moral issue...we are all lessened by this behavior.

[spanone]

77. Reap what you sow....let the fucking pictures speak for themselves.

It may be just what this nation needs to wake it up.

[CantGetFooledAgain]

79. I can't stop thinking about this...

We know that this evidence exists. People have seen it. It will get out, one way or another.

This is indisputable evidence of unspeakable evil performed by, and sanctioned by, the United States of America. There's no spinning this. Even if it were "a few bad apples" (and it's not), that is completely besides the point.

The entire chain of command, all the way to the CIC, must be held accountable for these crimes.

Nothing short of that will do.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

80. being a Floridian

i don't have much hope. The RW'ers down here are so vile and disgusting, so callous and unflinchingly dedicated to the chimp that i don't even think what's in those photos will do anything. A Floridian RW'er will look at these pictures, when they come out, and say "But they cut our guy's heads off, burn em and hangem from bridges and I'm supposed to care about this?" I shit you not, watch.

[BeHereNow]

81. Nooooooo! Don't tell me that!

I HAVE to believe that Americans will rally TOGETHER
against this.
Hands over ears, singing
"NAH-NAH-NAH...I can't hear you."

I CAN'T allow myself to think that. I simply can't.
I will not be able to get out of bed
if I believe that.
BHN

[SlavesandBulldozers]

83. well, perhaps my perceptions are completely destroyed by

being in this environment too long.

and, on the bright-side, if we rest our hopes on Florida we are already done for. so don't mind me, I'm a complete pessimist. it's the only way i can cope.

[Melodybe]

87. They can say that about adults all they want but these pictures have

children in them.

The video is suppose to be of a little boy being anally raped in front of his parents. They can not ignore that.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

89. perhaps you are right.

i guess there's just been so many instances where i have been completely catatonic in disbelief at what has been tolerated, nay encouraged, that I have forgotten there is actually a floor to this pit.

[RagAss]

93. So true..

That's the typical reaction I expect if these pictures are ever released. The other track that limpballs will undoubtably promote is the "these pictures are fradulent" lie. We'll be hearing that around the same time as the smear campaign against Fitgerald is in full force. I'm expecting both of these campaigns to kick off in October, when the indictment for Rove is announced and subsequently ignored by the WH. By the winter, we'll be able to taste the oppression.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

94. yes

or, another Rove favorite, they'll blame the messengers. "Why did you order these released? you put our troops in danger!!! You support our enemies!!!"

It's not a tough prediction, it's based on 4+ years of witnessing firsthand the chasm of cognitive dissonance.

[Lecky]

99. While a good many of RW'ers are vile

A lot of them are decent people with different ideology than ours, I know all my RW friends would be horrified by this.

Not to be a Republican apologist or anything but the good ones I know are just ignorant to what is really going on in our country and the entire world. It's not like the MSM is helping in anyway either...

...very frustrating to say the least.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

102. i hope you're right, Lecky.

to quote Bill Hicks "it's not so much a hope as it is a fervent fucking prayer".

[Lecky]

90. All the reason these photos and tapes should be released

I used to be in the "releasing these would be more dangerous" camp

I changed my mind, majority of people just don't know the horrible things that go on over there. (The government likes it that way)

[newswolf56]

91. While I don't think there is any adequate historical analogy...

to this war, there are analogies to certain aspects. Mai Lai, which was the result not of policy but poorly commanded soldiers run amok, solidified domestic opposition to the Vietnam War much more than Tet (which was a sweeping U.S. victory misreported as a loss by journalists who did not understand what they were seeing). The deliberate torture of detainees -- ever more clearly a matter of policy (and therefore if substantiated a malicious perversion of constitutional governance) -- is far worse, and therefore far more potentially damaging to the administration.

Assuming the Hersh allegations are proven by the tapes and photos, the pivotal question then is whether the implicit "otherness" of the Jihadists -- that is, the inability of the American public to regard them as fully human -- will trump the public outrage over the methodical abuse of children, the defacto suspension of Geneva Convention protections, the implicit suspension of constitutional guarantees, the growing questions about the administration's truthfulness, and the escalating outcry over casualties suffered in a war that increasingly seems an endless, purposeless folly. Will the public react as it did to Mai Lai, or will it react with indifference, as it did to the atrocities of the Indian Wars or the thousands of lynchings here at home?



Edit: revision of last sentence.

[tblue37]

97. Newswolf, this bothers me:

Assuming the Hersh allegations are proven by the tapes and photos, the pivotal question then is whether the implicit "otherness" of the Jihadists -- that is, the inability of the American public to regard them as fully human -- will trump the public outrage over the methodical abuse of children, the defacto suspension of Geneva Convention protections, the implicit suspension of constitutional guarantees, the growing questions about the administration's truthfulness, and the escalating outcry over casualties suffered in a war that increasingly seems an endless, purposeless folly.

Those women and children were not jihadists. They were just Iraqis citizens. Most of the people held at Abu Ghraib, including the men, were not jihadists, just Iraqi citizens. Even the Army has acknowledged that70%-90% of the detainees at Abu Ghraib were not jihadists or "insurgents." They were people picked up up in huge, indiscriminate sweeps, people turned in by enemies who lied to get them arrested, wives, daughters, sisters, and children held hostage and abused to force their men to turn themselves in or to talk if they were already being held.

The issue where the photos are concerned is not the "otherness of jihadists," but the otherness of ordinary Iraqis held prisoner and abused in Abu Ghraib. Calling innocent Iraqi citizens jihadists just because they are imprisoned is inaccurate and incredibly damaging.

[newswolf56]

110. Gross misrepresentation: I thought my reference to lynchings...

and the Indian Wars (in both of which which tens of thousands of innocents were slaughtered) made my underlying position not only clear but unmistakably so.

In no way did I say all detainees are Jihadists -- AND I ESPECIALLY AM NOT "CALLING INNOCENT IRAQI CITIZENS JIHADISTS" -- a misrepresentation so grave it reeks of malice.

I am reasoning from the psychological premise that the Jihadists themselves are widely perceived as the "other" (and also from an implicit but very ugly human truth, which is that -- as far as the viewpoint of the American public is concerned -- the peoples from which the Jihadists come are likely to be reduced to such "otherness" accordingly). I felt no need to spell this out (nor even to make this distinction) because the alleged guilt or innocence of the interned Iraqis is irrelevant to the issue of torture and therefore to my point. Torture is illegal, period, regardless of the victim's guilt or innocence or nationality.

Hence I will repeat my point even more bluntly: the ultimate question is whether the American public has been brainwashed completely out of its (always questionable) humanitarianism. Will it respond to the alleged disclosures of the now-embargoed tapes and photos with outrage (as it did 36 years ago to the photos of dead women and children at Mai Lai)? Or will it respond with indifference? In other words, if the American public sees the Iraqis as fully human, it will respond with outrage. If however the public merely sees the Iraqis as "the enemy," it will respond with indifference to even the worst atrocities -- however thoroughly documented. Note again in this context not only the lynchings and the Indian Wars, but also the American public's absolute and even malevolent present-day indifference to homeless people and the abjectly poor in general.

This reaction -- outrage versus indifference -- is the one vital question, not some politically "correct" (or perhaps personally motivated) red herring: leaping to antagonistic conclusions, accusing me of beliefs I do not hold and statements I never made.

[BeHereNow]

112. Don't worry- most of us understood your point-

Americans, in general, are prone to
personalizing and internalizing statements/points
made in a general philosophical context.
I don't think the responder meant any harm,
I just think they did not really understand the
frame you were expressing yourself from.
BHN

[tblue37]

115. No malice intended, Newswolf--

I know YOU did not mean to imply that the Iraqis tortured at Abu Ghraib were jihadists. My point is that we have to be careful about how we frame things, because the people who do assume all Iraqis being detained are "jihadists," "terrorists," or "insurgents" just have their prejudices reinforced when we use those words in a way that does not distinguish precisely enough between actual jihadists and Iraqis imprisoned for being Iraqis. (I mean spelling it out v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y for them!)

This phrasing is the exactly sort of careful distinction I was asking for:

I am reasoning from the psychological premise that the Jihadists themselves are widely perceived as the "other" (and also from an implicit but very ugly human truth, which is that -- as far as the viewpoint of the American public is concerned -- the peoples from which the Jihadists come are likely to be reduced to such "otherness" accordingly).

I understood perfectly that you were not intending to conflate Iraqis and jihadists, but my point is that the American public is in general very careless about doing just that, so when we talk about such things we have to spell it out as you did in the passage I have just quoted.

Just to show you what I mean about carelessness: In another thread Greenbriar gleefully posted letters to the editor from an online Kansan paper. One of the letters, which blasted Bush for supporting Rove, said that the writer had voted for Bush in 2000 but would never vote for another Republican again. Another letter said that it was all Clinton's fault for setting the bar so high with all that peace and prosperity that the American people just don't have the fortitude to tolerate the present chaos of the war and the broken economy.

Other people posting on that thread really blew it. They assumed, first of all, that all the letters Greenbriar posted from the Kansan paper were actually his or her own words, and they blasted him or her for "blaming it on Clinton" and for voting for Bush in 2000.

They couldn't understand that Greenbriar wasn't saying those things--they were from the letters to the editor. They also completely missed the point that the comment about Clinton wasn't blaming Clinton but praising him and blasting Bush--and that the comment wasn't even Greenbriar's in the first place.

I see that sort of misreading all the time, even in the well-intentioned, so I absolutely expect it from those who want to pretend that we only imprison the guilty and that since they are (as these sorts of people assume) jihadists, they therefore deserve any terrible thing we could possibly do to them.

I kept harping on the fact that they were innocent Iraqis not because I thought you were confused on the point, but because I wanted to drive home the way we need to frame these things.

Here is another example of the sort of thing I fear could happen if we don't frame our statements to be idiot-proof. One of my websites is called I'm Listening as Hard as I Can!:
http://www.deafnotdumb.homestead.com/index.html
The essays on that site are about coping with deafness in a society where people with normal hearing often treat the hearing impaired as if we are deliberate pains in the butt.

One of the essays is entitled "Deaf People Are So Annoying!"
http://www.deafnotdumb.homestead.com/deafannoy.html
The whole point of the essay is to chastise hearing people for having that attitude toward those of us who are hearing impaired.

This is the first paragraph in that essay:

I have a significant hearing loss. I usually simply say that I am deaf, because the subtleties involved in the degree of deafness are usually difficult for those with normal hearing to appreciate. Besides, if I say I'm deaf, people are a little more likely to attempt to help me understand what they say. Not a lot--but some.

And this is the comment left in the guestbook by a reader:

YOU MIGHT THINK DEAF PEOPLE ARE ANNOYING BUT I HAVE A DEAF BROTHER AND I HAVE LIVED WITH HIM ALL MY LIFE I AM 14 AND NOT ONCE I HAVE FOUND HES ANNOYING SO GO MAKE FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE OR AT LEAST GROW UP AND FIND SUMTHIN BETTER TO DO THAN PICK ON PEOPLE SO FUCK U

That is the sort of thing I am talking about. True, we can't fix the idiocy of people who think all Iraqis are jihadists, but we have to be very careful ourselves to phrase things so that it is harder for them to take our words to misrepresent the situation.

Again, I wasn't accusing you of thinking they were jihadists--I was just saying the phrasing of the first version doesn't make the distinction clear enough for the idiots who would misread it.

[BeHereNow]

116. I REALLY think you two just misunderstood one another-

Keep in mind, the topic is VERY upsetting to
everyone, and we may all have a bit of the
person I encountered today surrounding this topic.
Peace-
BHN

[tblue37]

118. I understood that HE wasn't saying the Iraqis tortured at Abu Ghraib

were jihadists. The miscommunication was was my fault for not being clear enough in my own phrasing the first time. That is why my second post is so long and detailed.

I absolutely agree with everything Newswolf said.

[BeHereNow]

121. Then be at peace with it all-

I know Newswolf is astute/understanding enough to
process your posts as to where the misunderstanding occured and
meet you in a positve reconciliation over the matter.
No harm done, certainly not in comparison to
what has been done to Iraqi children and civilians.
BHN

[tblue37]

122. I am sure he is.

That is why I made such a point of letting him know I was not accusing him of any such thing.

I could tell, even from his original post, how intelligent and articulate he is.

[newswolf56]

124. My heartfelt apology for over-reacting, which I obviously did:

I am truly sorry. By way of explanation -- though not excuse -- I was in great haste because I had to be somewhere else at 8:30 p.m. (PDT), and had I more time to be contemplative, I might not have reacted as I did. Also I'm probably still a little oversensitive due to an especially hateful encounter on another thread -- one in which I was not only maliciously misrepresented by several other posters but denounced (mostly on the basis of the misrepresentations) as a "dolt." Thus I'm sorry too you got caught in the fallout.

I'm also ashamed of myself. I try very hard to maintain a congenial level of discourse even amidst the most impassioned disagreement, and this time I obviously failed: my entire last paragraph ("This reaction...") was uncalled for -- and I should have picked up on that fact merely by recognizing the subtle clue in the manner in which you addressed me.

As to the need for clarity, I agree; were I writing about this topic for the general public (at least if I were fortunate enough to work for as good an editor as you), I would have phrased the text accordingly.

[BeHereNow]

125. Hey you two-

:grouphug:
BHN

[Tsiyu]

92. Glad you made it through the encounter

The truth is a bugger.

If only Americans would wake up; they would see why they are hated, why terrorists target our corporations and our soldiers and our allies. If these acts were perpetrated on "good Christian men, women and children" they would claim worldwide persecution.

But they want to be overfed and under-read. They revel in their stupid crap from China. Some hussie with one of those miniscule black with white "W" stickers tried to outrun me today right before a curve I know better than my own mama. In my LiberalMobile, I left her in the dust. Don't you cretins dare fuck with me. I will shove the truth down your snout so fast you'll wish you never met up with my Happy Ass.

Then I figured out it was probably one of the kids' firends' moms, a woman who sends her money to "Focus on the Family" and who cried when she found out her son (thanks to my kids) voted for Kerry. I wanted to talk her out of her insanity, but what's the point?

Yesterday, I took my youngest canoeing and rode motorcycles to and from the river. Zenning out on life ;) and enjoying it while I can, because the bottom will drop out soon - as evidenced by the postal patron's reactions to truth - and who knows where we'll all be then?

[BeHereNow]

98. Oh, you are so "right on-"

Over-fed and under-read...
Sucking up cheap crap from the mall and Walmart
on CREDIT that is about to bite them in the ass.

Thanks for the reminder to take the time to
ENJOY what we can, WHILE we can.
The things that matter.
Time with loved ones and friends, one in the same in
most cases, doing things that make the memories
that we are going to need to recall about the
"last of the good times" as Americans.
Soon, very soon.

BHN

[Nothing Without Hope]

103. The administration knows that many people will have this reaction.

That's why they continue to stonewall on making these photos available as ordered by the court.

Even their extreme-right insano fringe Fristian evangelical comrades are likely to be put off by scenes of little girlls and boys being raped and otherwise abused, presumably sometimes in front of their parents. They can only deny that it happened. The photos would deprive them of this excuse.

So the Administration will stonewall as far as they can. I'm hoping some of these photos are leaked.

[hootinholler]

108. Yes, I can imagine what will happen when they are released.

It could be a thing of beauty: the beginning of healing our nation.

Torches and pitchforks on the ellipse!

Torches and pitchforks outside the pentagon, screaming for Rummy's head!

Torches and Pitchforks outside of the lawyer's office who said it's OK!

Torches and pitchforks outside of every Rep.'s and Senator's home office demanding to know how they could have let this happen!

How can Roscoe Bartlet sleep knowing that his NCO constituents are the only ones so far jailed in the 'investigation' of abuses? Why has he not investigated or at least called for an investigation? Probably because he's republican, but this is a case where that shouldn't matter!

Oh, Mikulski and Hoyer have been silent too! SHAME! SHAME! The phrase "I did nothing" should be tattooed on their foreheads!

I don't want this boil on the face of America to fester for even a nano-second longer, but alas, the calloused republican skin is too crusty to break through.

-Hoot

[BeHereNow]

113. Whats that saying? Crisis is opprotunity?

I agree- remember Callie and the Nam Massecre?
Same thing.
Americans will NOT stand for it, IF they ever find out
about it.
BHN

[ConfuZed]

114. No postal jokes?

:wtf:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

126. It seems a golden opportunity has been lost.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

127. By the way, if this thread had been in the lounge, such an outrage could

never have happened!

[Pobeka]

128. Wow.

That's an amazing story. Thanks for your effort, both at the post office and here.

I hope and pray that the people will see the truth, and then finally they will know what we've known all along, and we can get this country headed back to a brighter future once again.

Cheers BHN,
Pobeka

[AtomicKitten]

131. The Sin is the Torture - Not the Release of the Photos/Videos

Many folks will confuse that. Rumsfeld himself was po'd that there were cameras in Abu Ghraib, not that the torture happened. These people cannot be rehabilitated. They are cruel at heart. And some Americans will have a hard time fathoming the truth of what has been done in our name. But the truth must prevail or change and healing cannot occur. That's why BushCo is sitting on this particular batch of photos and videos that Mr. Hersch has described so vividly. Faux News has been successful in convincing their audience, compliant sheep that they are, that there was no torture. And Rush Limbaugh has actually convinced his audience that the detainees are treated well. And the "mainstream" media has said virtually nothing. It is us, we internet-dwellers, who know the truth, and I guess it's going to be tough breaking it to the rest of America. But we must expose the animals in office. They are responsible. And it must stop.

[Catherine Vincent]

135. Oh my. I'll bet that guy scared the crap out of you.

You were brave and stuck to your guns. Had it been me I probably would have wimped out and changed the subject or something. But you know there are tons of Americans that would never believe such a thing could take place, not to underage boys, to women and certainly not by our military. They think the other guys do demonic stuff like that. Talk about delusional.

[Joanne98]

137. I got the same reaction! The anger turns to disbelief!

This is why the pictures must come out! They're so shocking nobody will believe it until they're forced to look at them. Until then nominate anything with statements from Republicans (Lindsay Graham or JAG) They'll want to "shoot the messager" at first but after awhile they will HATE Bush!