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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:52 AM
Original message
Hearts and Minds (MUST SEE film)
Edited on Tue Jul-26-05 01:54 AM by Triana
I just saw this film last night. It's been restored from 1974. And the parallels with Iraq are astounding. The footage spares no detail, leaves no guessing about how hideous of a 'war' this was, as much of it is grotesque, persuasive, and shocking.

Some of the comments made by the interviewees during the film are disturbing and heartbreaking and very similar to those I hear today.

Examples:

General Westmoreland who said that "the Oriental doesn't put the same high price on life as does the Westerner." This followed by a shot of a child weeping in misery by a grave, which brings across the message of the ignorance that some of the leading military staff possessed. However, General Westmoreland continued to make derogatory comments about the Vietnamese people and continued to come across as a bigot and a racist.

Another comment from Coker when asked by a child in a classroom what Vietnam looked like: "It's a beautiful place, if it weren't for the people. They are just primitive and they make a mess of everything."

This is arrogant and incredibly racist.

But such were the racist, dehumanizing attitutes toward the Vietnamese people and it is exactly this reduction of them to something less than human that encouraged and allowed the mindless murder of so many innocent people. It reminded me of a comment recently by someone who suggested we murder all the 'towelheads'...I suspect this same dehumanizing attitude prevails amongst the neocons regarding Muslims and Iraqi people, too - or perhaps that they are helpless children who 'need' our intervention and control. Ultimately, it makes it easier to kill them in droves if we can hate and dehumanize, reduce them in our minds as less than human beings. It makes it justifiable in our minds to be over there occupying their country if we can think of them as helpless idiot children who 'need' our presence there. This is how war works.

They don't 'need' US. We need them so we can use their country to establish Middle East military bases there. For oil, profit, and strategic control/power. We need the terrorists for the same reasons. They're our excuse - our boogieman. And, according to bu$hit's latest comment "so we can fight the terrorists there instead of here" (this means we're using Iraq as a human shield).

Well. Talk about your 'morality'....there isn't an ounce of it in any of this. Not one drop.

Hearts and Minds was initially delayed in the United States for a year as a result of the distributors, Columbia, being afraid of legal repercussions. However, the film went on to win the Oscar for Best Documentary Feature in 1975, and the Oscar's positive appraisal of Hearts and Minds led to a massive controversy. Nonetheless, Hearts and Minds message was out as it was the biggest documentary of the time with a million dollar budget.

It's a tough film to watch, which can be summed up by Daniel Ellsworth's quote "We weren't on the wrong side -- we were the wrong side."

And history has repeated itself. Because we didn't learn the lesson the first time and there's now a whole new generation of warmongering testosterone-pumped products of a patriarchal, arrogant, chest-beating, war-cry bleating government to make and fight in new wars.

Evolution has either evaded the United States, or the US has evaded any evolution beyond this. Another comment from the film: When Ellsworth was asked if the US learned its lesson from Vietnam his response was something like: "We did everything we could to avoid learning it."

Obviously...
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. Triana
where did you see it? will it air again? sounds like something I must see..so please tell me where?
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. i just ordered it from netflix
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. I PM'd the info, DinD...(n/t)
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. i can testify to the idiot phrase
about the value of a western life vs eastern. my parents actually spoke these words. i want my children to see this. thanks for the recomendation.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. I don't know how old your children are but...
...it's pretty graphic. There's a scene where a soldier just shoots a Vietnamese in the head in the middle of the street. Blood spewing out onto the pavement. It's grotesque. There are other scenes that young children might not ought to see. Just warning you just in case...
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. but that is what war is
my kids are all close to draft age. thankyou for the warning, i will preview b4 i share.
peace and love
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
6. haunting isn't it
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I was so disgusted...
..by the comments in the film - that they sound so similar to the ones I hear today. Nothing has changed except the decade and the country we invaded.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. The General Westmorland quote summarizes are overall position
when he said that "the Oriental doesn't put the same high price on life as does the Westerner."

There is no difference in our arrogance today. We do NOT understand the history or the culture of who we are fighting, and have no respect for their lives.

It hit home was when the British killed the young Brazillian man by mistake. There were many who said he deserved what he got, and that callous indifference highlights what and why we are where we are today

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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. that was exactly what I thought when I heard that comment...
...we know nothing about the history or culture of the Iraqi people and furthermore we don't care. It's the same attitude. In Iraq, the objective is just to get those bases there, control the oil, the region, and make profit. PNAC. That's all.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 02:47 AM
Response to Original message
8. This is exactly why
Edited on Tue Jul-26-05 02:47 AM by votesomemore
I was so opposed to the new war. Or any war.

It totally sux. They never learn.

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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
9. The comment about the country being beautiful...
... except for the people is very telling.

No mention of what seven million tons of bombs did to that countryside, either, or to the people, for that matter. *sigh*

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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. There was a murmer throughout the audience...
...when that was said. I can tell you none of the commentary was approving of such a comment.

Disgusting. Of course, at the time, 'nationalism' may have sufficiently drowned out the bad taste of racism and hatred - like steak sauce on a bad piece of meat to make it palatable - that at the time such a statement seemed perfectly reasonable.

You know that particular brand of "patriotism" the neocons keep talking about. Think of it as steak sauce for dog food. Because that's what it is. It's no more patriotism that I'm the man in the moon. But it's what they use to doctor the dehumanization of a people to make it palatable to an oh-so-malleable public.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Oh, I remember...
... I've watched it several times (have it on tape from a cable broadcast in the `80s).

The dehumanization is something common to all wars, I think. In a way, it's necessary to carry out war. Once "civilized," it's difficult to get people to kill each other without some dehumanization. The army dehumanizes its own troops to make them follow orders without questioning them. The troops dehumanize the enemy to make it easier for them to kill them. The government always tries to paint its chosen enemy in the most unflattering terms to build public support for war. Every war is the same, except for the level of sophistication of the propaganda. Our current war is the most recent proof of that....

Cheers.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. sophisticated propaganda - youbetcha...
"the level of sophistication of the propaganda. Our current war is the most recent proof of that...."

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:16 AM
Response to Original message
10. Yeah, I just saw "Hearts and Minds," too. Tonight. Also from Netflix.
I ordered it, oh, three or so months, and have been unable to watch it. So it just sat here. That era is just so painful to me. And Iraq has been an almost exact, word for word, heartbreak for heartbreak, repetition. To see it all happening again is appalling. But I finally watched it. I watched it back to back with "Uncovered: the Whole Truth about Iraq." Boy, is THAT an experience!

Someone in "Truth" says something about American policymakers and the military seeming to have been "lobotomized" after Vietnam. They're doing Vietnam all over again! Same lies. Same rhetoric. Same imposition of US will where it is not wanted. Same devastating modern killing machine against virtually unarmed people. Same aerial bombing of a country that has no air force. Same kind of racism and cultural ignorance, and brutality. And the same utter stupidity of trying to crush a people who are defending their homeland!

But I don't know about the "lobotomy." I think something far worse has happened in this case--and that is, the criminal disenfranchisement of the American people, and the ascendancy of a fascist coup.

Let me remind you, if you don't know this:

58% of the American people opposed the Iraq war BEFORE the invasion. I'll never forget that stat. Feb. '03. BEFORE all the lies were exposed. That indicates to me a peaceful people who had learned many lessons from Vietnam. Despite 9/11, and even with all the fearmongering, they just didn't buy it.

And opinion polls continue to show huge disapproval of every major Bush policy, foreign and domestic, way up in the 60% to 70% range. You name it. Iraq. Social Security. The deficit. Torturing prisoners (which 63% of Americans are opposed to, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!). And, of course, Bush's personal approval rating stands at 42%, and has sunk like the Titanic since the invasion.

This man represents the fringe of our society--rightwing Christians, a few really dumb conservatives, and a few billionaires, greedbags, dittoheads, armchair "patriots," and Corporate CEOs. And yet he has been able to drag us back into Vietnam, merely because he (or his Cartel) holds the reigns of power.

This is a very critical difference from the Vietnam era. Americans' disgust with the Vietnam war drove LBJ from the White House. He could not run for a second term, he had become so unpopular. The Bushites have found the answer to that problem: Diebold and ES&S--Bushite electronic voting machine companies gaining control of the vote tabulation, with SECRET, PROPRIETARY software.

I am convinced--on the basis of all the 2004 election evidence--that the American people rose up, on Nov. 2, 2004, in revulsion at the Bush Cartel, and threw them out of office by a very big margin, around 10%--and had that victory just outright stolen from them, mostly by what has become a completely non-transparent election system. The TV networks then, acting in concert, falsified the exit poll data (Kerry won) on everybody's TV screens that night--"adjusting" the exit polls to fit the official Diebold/ES&S result (Bush won), thus depriving the voters of major evidence of election fraud, and squashing protests and calls for investigation.

I DO think this major crime will be generally known, sooner rather than later. Our new people to people networks, and alternative media, are getting stronger every day. People know they have been lied to. They know something is very wrong. They just have to realize what the main mechanism of the theft was--the insecure, privately controlled electronic voting systems--and start fixing this problem, at the state/local level, where power over election systems still resides, and where ordinary people still have some influence. (We have the daunting problem of bipartisan corruption in the billion dollar deals that our election systems have become--but that is another discussion, and state/local election reform is still the best answer to it.)

In 1968, Americans still had the right to vote. That power is fundamental to our ability to influence our government. Without it, they have no reason to listen to us. And that is exactly what is going on with the Bushites and their "pod people" in Congress. They have no reason to listen to the majority. They are not beholden to the people, and they know it.

But it's going to be a long, hard struggle to reform the election system, and there are many ways that the Bushites and the War Party (combo of Bushites and bad Dems) can still foil us. But we must try. It is, really, our last chance to save our democracy.

Over 100,000 Iraqis were killed by our bombs, according to the British doctors' report, and many more have been killed since the bombings, and some 2,000 US soldiers have been killed (if the Pentagon is giving accurate figures--which is very doubtful). In Vietnam, at least a million Vietnamese were killed, and 55,000 US soldiers. Although the Iraq carnage isn't at that level yet, it's going to get worse before it gets better, and the Bush Cartel very likely has plans to nuke Iran and Syria. (That's one of the reasons they outed the CIA's covert WMD expert, Valerie Plame, and her entire CIA company network of eyes and ears on WMDs around the world--so the Bush Cartel can operate freely to plant and use WMDs to start more wars, and to profit from illicit arms deals.)

I don't think either film dealt enough with the war profiteering issue. I think that's what really and truly drove the Vietnam war, and is driving this one. In this case, also, there is the matter of Israel--a much bigger driver of the Iraq war than most people realize. I think ideology has very little--almost nothing--to do with this war. It's all about money (even the Israel issue--Israel is receiving billions in US support--although Israel has additional homeland and religious aspects).

Both films dwelt on ideology, and policy mistakes--and didn't really mention war profiteering at all. That's a big black hole in these films. "Hearts and Minds" focused more on ordinary people--Vietnamese and US soldiers and how they were experiencing the war. I don't think they gave nearly enough credit, or footage, to the anti-war movement, although they did reveal that a half a million soldiers deserted, and interviewed one in depth. "Truth" focused quite deliberately on policy and policy-makers (both Bushites and insider dissenters). That was okay--they were trying to make a particular point (exposing the Bush Cartel's lies).

I'm wondering tonight how we can stop war. And I'm thinking, 1) We MUST restore our right to vote! --because most people hate war and WILL stop it, or find a way around it, if they can; and 2) We MUST, we simply MUST, seek world disarmament, or our species WILL not survive, nor will our planet.

Imagine a world without armaments. Imagine all that money and energy and human ingenuity put to the uses of the common good. We can do that. We can help save the future. And we MUST. That's all. We MUST.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. HUGE point here...
"This is a very critical difference from the Vietnam era. Americans' disgust with the Vietnam war drove LBJ from the White House. He could not run for a second term, he had become so unpopular. The Bushites have found the answer to that problem: Diebold and ES&S--Bushite electronic voting machine companies gaining control of the vote tabulation, with SECRET, PROPRIETARY software"

Americans didn't want the invasion of Iraq. There were protests at least as large as during Vietnam - they occured before we invaded Iraq. Nary a story about it on the news. Or they showed a few college students beating drums, then showed a few hundred pro-war counter-protesters. That was their coverage. The MEDIA is also a huge issue now. They used to sort of report news. Not anymore. Then, yes there are the two stolen elections. Popularity isn't important to the bu$h cabal, nor is approval or disapproval of their policies. They have GOT to be exposed and raked off that Hill. We have to have the right to vote and to have the vote accurately counted, and we have to have independent media, as well as disarmament.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. I disagree, there were NOT as many protests as during Nam
and I also disagree, that Americans didn't want the invasion of Iraq. People were chomping on the bit to get in "Rambo" style. At that time they still believed the LIE that 9/11 and Iraq were linked, even though it didn't take much to see through the deception.

Please remember that the majority of both democrats and republicans gave bush the authority to go into Iraq.

You can't blame everything on Diebold and the media. For one thing, the Kerry camp, indicated that they would insure no voting issues, and it was a nightmare. Where were they? They knew about this since the 2000 election, and at that time we still had some control.

Even today, except for a handful of democrats, we mostly rubber stamp what this administration does

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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I thought I read that...
...some of the protests were larger than during Nam. Maybe not.

I realize that Dems and Repubs (including goddamned Kerry) voted to go into Iraq. This isn't just a bu$h problem.

Kerry - I'm disappointed in him for a few reasons. Voting to go into Iraq was one. He, of all people, should have known better. The voting issue thing - pfft! He didn't do a damn thing about it.

Democrats are still supporting this shit, yes. I realize that.

All we can do is keep tossing sand into the war machinery and hope that at some point, it will grind it to a halt. I don't have all the answers.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Protests occurred throughout the country during Viet Nam
especially in colleges

Maybe some of the protests have been larger than during Viet Nam, I don't know, but they were definitely more frequent.

Maybe because there was a draft that is why they were more vocal, or maybe because the media covered it more back then.

The documentary The Fog Of War probably best encapsulates the terrible mistakes we are making. I hope I am wrong, but believe it will be at least another 7 to 10 years, more American and Iraqii lives wasted, and resources plundered, before we realize what a mistake it was.

The most haunting line back then was we can't just leave Viet Nam because it would be a diaster. They are saying the same thing today about Iraq




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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Stan Goff said this very thing last night...
"The most haunting line back then was we can't just leave Viet Nam because it would be a diaster. They are saying the same thing today about Iraq."

He did a Q & A session after the film. More about him: http://stangoff.com
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Thanks for the link
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La Coliniere Donating Member (581 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
19. Great film
Should be shown on network tv.
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