Hil goes DLC

[BobRossi]

"COLUMBUS, Ohio -- The Democratic Leadership Council, an organization of influential party moderates, named Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton today to direct a new initiative to define a party agenda for the 2006 and 2008 elections."

"The appointment solidified the identification of Clinton, once considered a champion of the party's left, with the centrist movement that helped propel her husband to the White House in 1992. It also continued her effort, which has accelerated in recent months, to present herself as a moderate on issues such as national security, immigration and abortion."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-072505dnc_lat,0,4442905.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[SaveElmer]

1. Is she crazy?

Using the same strategy that got the only Democratic President in 20 years elected? She must be off her rocker!!! :sarcasm:

[JHB]

2. This isn't 1992...

...and she ain't Bill.

[SaveElmer]

4. Yes let's ignore past success...

No lessens to be learned there!

[w13rd0]

6. Bill Clinton...

...was a charismatic man. The "DLC Success Story" has been demonstrated to be a fraud. Their only successes hitched to ONE person. Triangulation and Repub-lite just won't do it. And under Al From, the DLC has become a complete joke that I, as a moderate for the most part, want absolutely nothing to do with. They are appeasers, and repeatedly say, "Please may I have another" while we're getting kicked in the teeth, all to please their corporate contributors.

F the DLC

[JHB]

23. The DLC had been running on that "past success" for nearly 15 years...

...and has yet to repeat it. Most people would take that as a cue to re-evaluate exactly what caused that "past success".

Bill Clinton was not successful because of the DLC, the DLC was successful because of Bill Clinton.

[formernaderite]

64. They're an organization from a different century

No longer applicable in the 21st. You're right, they have been running on their success from 92 for too long. Clinton's strategies might have won us the white house, but with no majority. Let's not forget how he lost the house and senate for the democrats as well.

For the life of me, I just don't get the draw Hil has for some democrats...unless its all celebrity attraction.

[JHB]

65. Celebrity attraction and...

...projection/idealization/role-modelling/symbology.

[CWebster]

3. Didn't seem to work for Kerry. nt

[SaveElmer]

5. Please...

I like Kerry...but he was no Bill Clinton...and did not have half the political skill Bill Clinton had. Nor did he use the same approach.

Clinton's campaign was characterized by rapid counterattack. That campaign never let the Republicans get away with anything without a rapid and immediate counterattack. Kerry just did not have that in him to do that for some reason.

And whether anyone will admit it or not, was a liberal...by far the most liberal nominee we have ever had!!!

[bunkerbuster1]

7. FDR, Stevenson, Humphrey, LBJ and McGovern on line one

want to have a word with you about that "most liberal nominee" statement of yours.

[SaveElmer]

13. Invalid comparisons

Except perhaps McGovern...that worked out well for us.

ANd if you are using Stevenson, well the comparison is not apt becasue of the diffrent eras...but ok...that worked out real well for us too

To compare current liberalism with say FDR liberalism is ludicrous.

FDR came in as a balanced budget, small government conservative...his greatness is that he did what he needed to to get the country back on track...but he was never a doctrinaire liberal. And I would argue current liberals...Kerry included would be to the left of FDR.

That's for another thread however!

[CWebster]

16. So what?

There could be one weak liberal candidate, overwhelmed by the fascist Right, so we set up a new strategy of emulating the Right to beat them, when all it does is knock them, momentarily off guard, only to regroup at a further point on the Right spectrum?

How many losses will that strategy take until it is recognized as a failure? Seems like an awful lot of mileage off of McGovern by comparison.

[bunkerbuster1]

21. As Goldwater is said to have told McGovern,

"If you're gonna lose, lose big."

BTW, I have no idea what "current liberalism" is supposed to mean.

[SaveElmer]

22. I reject your premise...

The DLC is not a right wing organization!! ANd they have not been following the right on the road to fascism (as I saw someone else say)

Have you read their proposals? Have you looked at their drumbeat of criticism of Bush and the Republicans on most issues? They are a mainstream Democrats, who I don't always agree with but would rather work with constructively than fight with constantly.

It's not about following their strategy for anything...It's about Democrats working together for the common good. If we spend all of our time attacking each other then we have no time for the real enemy.

It's not about moving left or moving right, it's about unity and a coherent message. Doesn't mean we can't disagree, but it should be as when friends disagree.

And before you jump on me I know the DLC has done it's share of attacking,probably most of it...they are not blameless...but I think Hillary has a real opportunity here to unite the party if people will just give her a chance.

[CWebster]

34. Here is a simple test

Apparently even Ann Coulter, brazen propagandist for the Right, now admits they have the liberal media gunning for them. That happens when reality itself is branded as some fringe liberal idea. But even considering biased polling techniques, the majority of Americans, with the disadvantages of a monopolized press, still think the war in Iraq was a mistake.

So where are the Democrats? Reinforcing the mistake and fighting us.

Meanwhile Hillary focuses on fluff.

[SaveElmer]

68. There can be subtlety in ones position...

It is possible to think the war was a mistake from the beginning, but also think it would be a mistake to just withdraw (Howard Dean)

It is possible to have supported the war, now think it was a mistake, but still think it would be a mistake to just withdraw (Kerry)

It is possible to have supported the war, not regret the support, but believe it is being handled incompetently and think it would be a mistake to just withdraw (Hillary, Edwards)

I would bet that all that Kerry, Dean, and Hillary are probably very close in view as to what should be done going forward.

So just because one thinks the war was a mistake, does not mean they think an immediate withdraw is wise either...I would have more trust in Hillary to make things end well there than I would the current gang, or someone who was calling for an immediate withdrawl.

[w13rd0]

9. Kerry was the most liberal nominee we have ever had...

...and somehow he got a HIGHER percentage of the vote than Clinton did, and more people voted for him than voted for Clinton. But yet, the DLCs response is to play follow the leader and chase the increasingly whacko right-wing further to the right, letting them define the frame and set the agenda.

Not very smart, what side are they on again?

[SaveElmer]

12. No third party in 2004...

And your charge that DLC is simply following the leader is bullshit...have ever actually bothered to look at the DLC's position papers on issues?

I am not a DLC person, I would consider myself to the left of them on many issues...but on most things they are well within the Democratic mainstream, and they are sure as hell to the left of the current thugs!!!

[CWebster]

19. Yes actually

We have been watching the DLC for years.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1482568&mesg_id=1483649&page=


http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=4443&forum=DCForumID22&archive=

[SaveElmer]

26. Half those links don;t work...

But the one that does at the top is about New Zealand...and is long. Will read it later...

Didn;t see any links to DLC position papers or anything...why not look at those as well?

[CWebster]

35. Good one to start with

http://www.realdems.org/theprogressive.htm

[G_j]

20. policies? I will never suport this BS

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4183052

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) - Centrists who contend Democrats cannot retake the White House until voters trust the party to protect them said Sunday the Army should expand by 100,000 soldiers and that colleges should open their campuses to military recruiters.

"A Democrat has to show the toughness to govern," said Al From, founder of the Democratic Leadership Council. "People don't doubt that Republicans will be tough."

From argued that national security and safety are threshold issues for swing voters who increasingly are trending Republican.

"We're using the National Guard as a backdoor draft," he said.

http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20050724/D8BHUN201.html

[SaveElmer]

24. As I said...I don;t agree with them 100%

But, our soldiers in Iraq are overworked...going far beyond the call of duty and they need help...

Even under the best of circumstances it is going to be months or years before we leave...they need help

As to letting military recruiters on campus...why not? College students are old enough to make up their own minds. I would monitor it very carefully for any inapporporiate coercion...

I have no problem admitting Al From is a bit of an assjole...even when he is right about something he sounds like a dick...they should get himoff TV. However, that does not mean the DLC is the enemy...they are not!

[leesa]

27. Have to disagree with you. They are the reason people see no difference

between Republicans and Democrats. They are complete corporate whores and they are fully for the war in Iraq and see no problem with us invading countries and stealing their resources. These people are far right and there is no other way to look at it. They are certainly not moderates.

[SaveElmer]

28. Provide evidence that this is what they want...

That they see no problem with "invading countries and stealing their resources." Stating it does not make it fact.

I don;t really agree with their security strategy, I don't...my pointis that on most issues they are well within the Democratic mainstream...and if you read their positions on most issues you will see this.

And dude...if you think Hillary Clinton, Mark Warner etc are far right...you are in the wrong party!!!

[MadHound]

38. OK, lets look at who voted for the IWR.

Let us look at who continues to support it, time after time, even though it is patently obvious to all and sundry that this is an illegal, immoral war that we should get out of now. Let us look at who supported welfare "reform", thus stripping us of our social safety net. Let us look at the Patriot Act, which stripped us of our civil rights. Let us look at who supported the '96 Telecom Act, a giveway to the telecom industry, a payback for their support of Clinton, and which silenced our voice even more. Let us look at who supported NAFTA, which was a giveaway to corporate America, and stripped rank and file Dems of their well paying manufacturing sector.

All of this and more can be laid at the feet of the DLC and its minions, Hillary and Bill included. Judging on these economic issues, the conclusion that one is forced to come to is that the DLC Dems have become more pro-corporate, thus moving them into the realm of moderate, pro-corporate Republicans, an idea unthinkable a generation ago.

Then there are social issues, which the DLC Dems have done nothing at best, and damaged progress on some. Gay rights received a huge setback under Clinton's "don't ask, don't tell policy". Clinton had a chance to put up a legacy of civil rights with this one if he had only exhibited the courage, spine and stubboness of Harry Truman when he integrated the military along racial lines. Instead, he vacilated on this, and plunked down on a solution that didn't help the issue of gay rights, while at the same time leaving the gay rights movement open for even more voracious criticism from the RW.

Kerry could have exhibited courage by endorsing gay marriage, but instead he also vacilated back and forth on the issue, thus damaging his campaign even further, and helping to provoke an even greater backlash in '04.

I'm sorry, but the evidence is clear, and most impartial analysts agree, that the DLC is nothing but moderate, corporate 'Pugs in Dem clothing. If you wish further analysis of their damage, I would suggest that you read Thomas Franks's "What's the Matter With Kansas"

It is high time that a split is done. Either the Democratic party should decide to return to its roots, and once again become the party of the people, and thus kick out the DLC Dems in the process. Or the left wing, Democratic wing of the Democratic party should pick up and leave, and take their votes elsewhere, like the Greens. For until this schism is healed, very little progress will be made by either the Democratic party, or the nation as a whole. You can't be a party of the opposition when you continue to agree with those whom you are supposed to oppose.

[SaveElmer]

48. Did you vote for John Kerry ?

just askin!

[MadHound]

52. Yes, regretfully I did

After the debacle of '00, where Gore ran a horrible campaign that he should have won, I vowed to switch over to the Greens for '04. Sadly, I got suckered in by all of the ABB BS, and voted for Kerry. Never again will I make that mistake. The only Democratic candidates that I will be voting for is those who do not take corporate cash, so that will probably exclude all Dems, with the exception of Kucinich, if he decides to run again.

Corporate cash in our election system is the root of our problems, and until that is cleared up, I won't support any corporate candidate. Thus, I will be pretty much limited to the Greens.

Why do you ask, looking for a "gotcha" moment? Sorry to disappoint friend, but I am speaking as one who has worked, bled for, donated to the Democratic party for over thirty years, and all that effort on my behalf has gotten is a party that is now beholden to big business, and is moving ever rightwards at an alarming rate. What is even worse is that virtually all of these problems are of the Democratic Party's own doing.

[SaveElmer]

55. I'm sure the Greens will be glad to have you!!!

Good luck!

[MadHound]

57. So this is your response to my post #38

You ask for evidence, I provide it, and yet now there is silence from you on these issues? Are you conceding all of the points that I mentioned? And if so, if you are conceding that my indictment of the DLC is correct, then why continue to support them?

[SaveElmer]

60. Not really...

I've been on a number of threads...and mow I must go to work...if you check back later in the day I will have had time to digest everything you said and will respond to you....is that ok?

[MadHound]

62. Cool with me!

Have a good day at work, though if you're doing an eight hour shift, I probably won't be here when you get back. But nice talking with you, Cheers.

[G_j]

30. I respect your opinion

but personally I have to draw the line. I've been a peace activist since the Vietnam war. If these Dems want unity they need to move toward the grass roots who want peace and less militarism (profiteering), not expect us to move toward them.

[SaveElmer]

32. Thanks for being civil...

That is actually my point really!

It doesn;t mean they are not Democrats, or we should not associate with them...

We can splinter ourselves off into little mini parties based on one or another issue, but that is just going to get us defeated.

Despite Hillary's position on Iraq I am supporting her...not because I think she is right on this issue, but because I do agree with her on most things,and I think she is our best chance for victory.And I know she will not follow a course of action simply because her ideology tells her too. I truly think she will do what is necessary to get the best outcome. hat is what great presidents do, they overcome their inclination and do what they have to (see Lincoln and FDR). I truly thiink Hillary is that kind of person.

I shouldn;t have my commitment to Democratic values constantly questioned because I support her.

[MadHound]

41. I'm sorry friend, but I see matters entirely differently

The Iraq War is THE issue of the day. People, innocent men, women and children are dying because of the actions of those who supported and continue to support this war. Our country is being bled dry in the process, and the only ones who are benefitting are those corporations that are part of the military industrial complex. Everything else takes a back seat to getting us out of this war. Yet you are supporting a candidate who is going to continue to drag us further into the quagmire? No criticism of you, but my conscience can't allow that equivocating.

[G_j]

42. civility is important

of course this is an extremely emotional issue for many.

It is my educated guess that many people will refuse to support DLC candidates. IMO, the best path to unity is to sideline the DLC. But it is not just the DLC, it is about the war and militarism.
One can't expect people to go against their deepest held principles without it eventually taking a toll.

[CWebster]

10. Wasn't he the "most electable"?

And they tried to pump him up as big war hero to appeal to some post 911 war fever, while the war was going from bad to worse. Even then, they laid him out flat with their swift boat strategy--and Kerry was ill-equipted to fend them off.

Hillary ain't no slick Willy and after the swiftboats, it is clear that how much she attempts to triangulate off of the Right's framing of the issues, they will lift her up, only to run her down. What is left for Hillary to counterattack on--some vague rhetoric about the "American Dream"? It isn't as if she has a wide base of support outside the Beltway as the pre-ordained.

Hillary doesn't stand firm in any true moral clarity--most people, on both sides, recognize her as a political opportunist and corporate panderer.

[SaveElmer]

36. That is anti-Hillary talking point Bullshit!!!

Kerry lost because he was inept...bottom line.

Hillary has shown herself to be very adept...and has all of the political skills Bill has. Do you think it's an accident that the Joe Klein book backfired so badly. Hillary has an army of supporters ready to counterattack on that kind of bullshit.

This is exactly what is wrong with the Party...constant attacks on those we agree with 90% of the time becasue we don;t agree on the other 10%...not a strategy for victory if you ask me!

[CWebster]

44. Says it better than I can

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4193168&mesg_id=4193443

[Stevepol]

39. KERRY WON THE ELECTION.

Don't forget this fact. The exit polls show it. If you believe that Bush won the election, then Dems truly don't have a chance even if there's a fair vote.

Fix the voting machines (so they work fair) and everything will begin to look rational and logical again.

DEMAND A VOTER-VERIFIED PAPER BALLOT AND REQUIRED AUDITS FOR ALL ELECTIONS USING ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES.

[CWebster]

45. Tell him. nt

[wakeme2008]

40. Again she is not Bill and

she is from the Zell Miller branch of the DLC. Enough said.

[SaveElmer]

47. That is just too stupid for words...nt

[CWebster]

49. Downright civil of ya. nt

[SaveElmer]

54. Yeah I've given up on civility around here

No one else tries it...seems like it is a useless thing to do.

In the last hour or two I have had my commitment to the Democratic Party and progressive values questioned, one poster has told me that I want our kids in Iraq to die, that I am a corporate emabler, and Republican lite...and who knows what else...

And yet, I know in my heart I am a loyal Democrat, who in the 25 years of voting in every election has never once voted Republican, not even for school board. I proudly voted for Paul Wellstone twice, and even in elections that haven't been contested where there is no Democrat running, nevertheless write in a Democrat. My personal political hero is Hubert Humphrey. But that does not really mean anything, because I am committing a great crime

And that crime is!

I support Hillary Clinton. I think she would be a great Pesident, and I think she would win.I also don't think that the DLC is our true enemy, and that there is a place in our party for moderates.

That is the new reality at DU though...toe the dominant line or your a traitor!!!

[CWebster]

56. People who demand civility

So often reserve it for themselves only.

Republican demands for civility from Democrats--or accusations that Dems are "obstructionist" are little more than bullying tactics to insure capitulation.

[SaveElmer]

59. From Republicans that is true...they are not trustworthy..

I thought we were better...and now I am doing it to. When someone...a fellow Democrat... tells me that I want kids in Iraq to die...and the basis for that statement is I support Hillary Clinton...well...it is not likely to bring out the best in me!

I always though the dominant mode of dicourse among Democrats was one of civility...or at least oughta be. I joined this board because I wanted to have conversations, debates etc with people who wee all working generally toward the same goal. Obviously I know not all Democrats agree on everything, but the debate use to be civil...as among friends. Now, unfortunately, there seems to be an underlying contempt between people. If there is disagreement it becomes personal, and name calling ensues.

Kind of like what Republicans do to us.

[CWebster]

61. Read what Wellstone had to say

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20010219&s=wellstone

[KharmaTrain]

8. And The Purpose Of Another DLC Slam Post Is???

I'm not a fan of the DLC, but the piling on over the past couple days is quite interesting. Especially the timing.

Hmmm...could we be looking to create a rear guard fight within the Democrats so this regime can get some breathing room in their current scandals? Hmmm....

Sorry, no gold star and a low post count always calls red flag here.

If you've got problems with Hillary or any other DLC'er, don't support them. Or, inversely, work for a candidate you believe in. Don't tell me what's wrong with a candidate, I want to know what's right.

Hillary's not on my ballot next year, and I could care less about 2008 when the 2006 elections are closer and more important.

[G_j]

11. this is a legit news item,

an LA times news story not an opinion piece.
How is this a slam?

[CWebster]

14. The writing is on the wall, baby

Part of opposing the fascist extremists is to shore up our defenses and reinforce our resolve against them. We must be strong to oppose them, not join them via triangulation--that erodes us and look where it got us. WHY would we want to continue on this road?

Don't ignore what is in front of your eyes now.

[KharmaTrain]

33. And We're "Joining Them" How?

Somehow by being prudent and picking your fights wisely is "joining them"? Sorry, I long since gave up going after every windmill I felt needed to go after, saving strengths and resources for the more attainable and important goals.

As stated above, I'm no supporter of the DLC...or any splinter group. I look at a far bigger picture and right now that's a corrupt regime and an illegal war that needs to be reigned in. This has to be done with virtually no power in the legislative and a corporate media that loves this kinda red meat to divert and marginalize Democrats. Sorry, I'm not about to get out the torches and pitchforks.

That said, the DLC statements...and yes I've read them here and re-read them on several other sites before I posted this...are outright wrong. Their appeasement of this regime and their strong corporate ties don't escape me one moment...but right now you pick your fights and your friends wisely.

I hope there comes a time we can take the DLC and individuals who put their power and personal interests ahead of country and overall common decency to account, but that time will come and be a lot more effective when there are more Liberals and Progressives elected across the country and this wing sees how marginalized its become. I'm taking notes now, not picking fights.

Peace...

[CWebster]

46. "pick your fights"

that like calls for "civility" are typical tactics to thwart or postpone that uncomfortable but absolutely essential confrontation with that elephant in the living room.

Otherwise I agree with you.

[BiggJawn]

25. Then check my post count....

...AND my precious gold star when I say I agree with the OP.

DLC is nothing more that "Republican Lite" in my book.

Sure, they may have done some good back in the day, but anymore all they do is tell us to relax and ask Karl to use plenty of Astro-Glide.

[KharmaTrain]

37. I Was Refering To The OP

Honestly, I wasn't too crazy about the DLC when they first came about in '88. I supported Tom Harkin in '92 and it wasn't until the Repugnicans started the non-stop attacks on Clinton then I really felt a strong bond with him and his supporters. I can site several things...Telcom '96...as a DLC action that has hurt this country. So I don't think I need to be explained or reminded about what the DLC is about.

Yep, it was Repugnican Lite then as much as it is now. I just think it's used as a whipping boy...especially here on DU...to start yet more flame wars and other distractions when the real focus has to be on this regime. To put it in Paris, June 1944 terms...first we drive out the Germans...then we deal with the colaborators.

Please don't think I was refering to your count. The OP was a very low number and no star. I never used to look at those things, but with all the trolls and others who have been landing lately (lots of new faces...many I do very much welcome) but the radar is on regularly when I sense someone's trying to yank a chain. Generally I go right past these posts, but the sudden volume of DLC posts in the past 24 hours is what got my attention.

Cheers...

[BobRossi]

67. I could easily.......

I could easily inflate my count with inane posts as many here do. If numbers impresses you more than content please disregard my posts in the future, I will reciprocate.

[rman]

63. same purpose as criticizing Bush, the war, etc etc

what would be good about not criticizing them?

[Walt Starr]

15. As far as I'm concerned, Vilsack, Clinton, and Warner have all lost my vot

No way. No how will I vote for anybody who's DLC.

[Pithy Cherub]

66. We are in total agreement on this one!

:toast:

[bowens43]

17. Hillary will do what ever it takes

to gain power. There is no ass she won't kiss. Sorry Hill, the DLC doesn't lead this Democrat.

[charlie]

18. Goes?

She's been DLC for a looong time. To hear her tell it, she's been solid with Al From since her husband first met him.

[Cocoa]

29. when was Hillary a "champion of the party's left?"

the party's left has always been hostile to her as far as I can recall.

There is absolutely no news in any of this "Hillary moves to the center" crap.

She moved to the center, with her husband, early in Bill's first term as president, over ten years ago.

[jonnyblitz]

31. exactly.

apparently some people believed the right wing media all this time.

[MadHound]

43. And considering that she is a former "Goldwater Girl"

You could say that all she is really doing is going home:eyes:

[Skwmom]

50. If the Democrats pick up seats in 2006, will Clinton/DLC take the credit?

If things continue as they are, it seems that the Democrats will pick up seats without any help from the DLC.

[JHB]

51. An attempt at party unity requires me to not give the obvious answer...

...to that question.

[patcox2]

53. She and her husband FOUNDED the DLC, whats the surprise?

The political naivete around here can be breathtaking sometimes. As can the denial and wide-eyed hero-worship.

[rman]

58. "define a party agenda for elections" - they are out of line:

They are not the Party leadership, but they have in effect apointed themselves to the role of leading the Party, which is in violation of democratic principals.
I mean, who voted for them to take on that role? Big capital did, that's who.

[derby378]

69. "Fuck the DLC"

Fuck the DLC
They wrecked our party system
They don't give a damn 'cause they're
Career politicians
They trashed Howard Dean
They cost Kerry the election
It's time we kick them out and
Take the Dems in new directions

BAYH and TAUSCHER - time to clean your fuckin' desks
LIEBERMAN and LANDRIEU - selling out has made you lame
HILLARY and BYRON - last chance to jump the ship
So CONYERS and BOXER can live in peace without these dicks

(Sung to the tune of Fuck the Middle East by S.O.D. Sing it in the car, in the shower, at your next Democratic Party meeting, or anywhere you feel like singing!)