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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:35 AM
Original message
The Power of the Good Mind
{1} "All people whose minds are healthy can desire peace, and there is an ability within all people, especially the young, to grasp and hold strongly to the principles of righteousness. Those principles of righteousness demand that all thoughts of prejudice, privilege, or superiority be swept away, and that recognition be given to the reality that the creation is intended for the benefit of all equally. Even the birds and animals, the trees and insects, as well as the people. The world does not belong to the humans -- it is the rightful property of the Great Creator." -- The PeaceMaker

Many years ago, the people that are known today as the Iroquois lived in a period of time that could be described as "anomie." Anomie is a state of society in which the normal standards of belief and behavior are very weak, or altogether lacking. It is a condition in which the individual and the community experiences disorientation, anxiety, and isolation.

Today, the United States is experiencing anomie. There are numerous objective measures of this, including the high rates of violence; the use of legal and illegal drugs to cope with anxiety and depression; and the federal government's manipulation of fear to control the citizens in the most undemocratic of ways.

Why should we care about the Iroquois? Aren't they a small group of people, living largely in the margins of modern society? Perhaps, because as Victor Hugo said, "There is no such thing as a little country. The greatness of a people is no more determined by their number than the greatness of a man is determined by his height." (Quote taken from "The Book of the Hopi," by Frank Waters)

At the time of the Revolutionary War, the most influential of our "Founding Fathers" -- Franklin, Jefferson, and Madison -- were students of the Iroquois Confederacy. Our first "great document," the Articles of Confederation, were based largely on Iroquois thought. Our system of federalism is based entirely upon the Iroquois model.

Today, I thought we could examine a few Iroquois concepts, and see if they might be of some value to us in our struggle against anomie, and for democracy.

{2}"Then, too, his law was a written law; his divine decalogue reposed in a book. And what better proof that his advent into this country and his subsequent acts were the result of divine will! He brought the Word! There ensued a blind worship of written history, of books, of the written word, that has denuded the spoken word of its power and sacredness. The written word became established as a criterion of the superior man -- a symbol of emotional fineness. The man who could write his name on a piece of paper, whether or not he possessed the spiritual fineness to honor those words in speech, was by some miraculous formula a more highly developed and sensitized person than the one who had never had a pen in hand, but whose spoken word was inviolable and whose sense of honor and truth was paramount. .... Is not humanness a matter of heart and mind, and is it not evident in the form of relationship with men? Is not kindness more powerful than arrogance; and truth more powerful than the sword? .... True civilization lies in the dominance of self and not the dominanceof other people ...."

"I am going to venture that the man who sat on the ground in front of his tepee meditating on life and its meaning, accepting the kinship of all creatures, and acknowledging unity with the universe of things was infusing into his being the true essence of civilization. And when native man left off this form of development, his humanization was retarded in growth."
-- Luther Standing Bear; "Land of the Spotted Eagle"

The story of the man known as the PeaceMaker, who brought the people we call Iroquois the Great Law of Peace, is an oral tradition among traditional Haudenosaunee peoples. (Haudenosaunee is the correct name for the Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy.) Others have written it down.

The written versions include: (1) the "Newhouse Version" by a Canadian Mohawk named Seth Newhouse. It was revised by Albert Cusick, an Onondaga/Tuscarora, then published by the first NYS archaeologist, Dr. Arthur Parker, in 1916.; (2) The "Chief's Version," from the 6 Nations territory in Ontario, published 1900; (3) The "Gibson Version," by Chief John Arthur Gibson in 1899 (revised by Chiefs Butler, Buck & Buck in 1900 and again in 1914).; and Paul Wallace's "The White Roots of Peace," publised in the 1980s.

I like Wallace's version, although it has some errors. It's two biggest strengths are the introduction by John Mohawk, and the artwork by John Fadden. (John's father grew up a couple miles from where I live, which by coincidence is a short walk from where Albert Cusick's grandson was my neighbor when I was a boy.)

Now here are some things I learned: long ago, far before the time that Wallace describes, the people of the northeast were hunters and gatherers. They lived by what traditional people around the globe call the Original Instructions. People lived in small groups that were extended families. Life was not "perfect," and there is no need to attribute the Garden of Eden mythology to it. But it did tend to make for good relationships between people.

Around what we call 200 ad, an empire from the Ohio River Valley region began to introduce their culture into the northeast. This was done by way of trade, more than migration. Cultigens, most significantly corn, beans, and squash, were introduced. This resulted in communities becoming larger, and more sedentary. More, the roles of men and women changed, as women became the primary suppliers of food. Also, the bow & arrow was introduced, and men no longer hunted in cooperation with spears, javalin, and atlatl. Rather, the individual hunter became a loan competitor.

Settled villages, which begin to take part in large trade relationships with distant city-states, depend upon accumulated wealth. This changes their relationship with the earth, and with their community. Social stratification occures. The shaman is replaced with a priesthood.

All empires fall. When the ORV empire(s) did, around 500 ad, things changed for the outlaying areas. Competition in trade becomes a form of survival of the strongest. Different groups of people begin to have warfare. The larger communities have more families; as a result, the violence between distant competitors becomes bloof feuds between local communities. In turn, family turns against family.

Again, the break-down in societies is known as anomie. When we examine what took place in 500, we see it is not much different than what we experience today.

{3} "The Original Instructions direct that we who walk about the earth are to express a great respect and affection and gratitude towards all the spirits that create and support life. We give a greeting and thanksgiving to the many supporters of our own lives ... the plants,the animals, the water, the air, and the sun. When people cease to respect and express gratitude for these many things, then all life will be destroyed, and human life on the planet earth will come to an end." -- Hau de no sau nee

America too often suffers from a cultural "blindness" that has resulted in our mistaken belief that democracy comes only from the Greeks, or to attribute the concepts expressed in the Bill of Rights to the English. But we can benefit by looking at the teachings of a Huron during what was known as "the time of great sorrow and terror."

The PeaceMaker was a Huron who had a political philosophy based on rational thought. But his people, who were involved in blood feuds, were irrational, and so they rejected him and his thoughts. And so he traveled to the land of the Iroquois, which was filled with assassins who took part in a head-hunting cult.

The PeaceMaker's first stop was at the lodge of an elderly woman. He told her his philosophy, and she fed him. She then instructed him to spread his message in the land of the most violent people. This is symbolic of the beginnings of matriarchal sciety as an antidote to violence. This woman was the first "clan mother."

He traveled until he found a man who had quit society, because his two daughters had died. The man's name is often called "Hiawatha," which was used by a poet incorrectly years later. This man, Hianawetha, was in despair. The Peacemaker recognized that pain causes dispair. He told the man his philosophy, and this changed despair to hope. Thus, chiefs are "raised" in a condolence ceremony, even today.

Hiawatha's true name means "he who combs." It was because he could comb the twisted errors in thinking from disturbed minds. He used good words. (The PeaceMaker's name is only used in ceremony by traditinals. It signified a problem with his ability to speak clearly. He thus was a man of thoughts, who depended on his friend to express them.)

In the next 20 years, they spoke to the most violent of men and women. They convinced them that all people have the potential for rational thought, and that this means they are capable of desiring peace. They did not discount irrational thought. More, they encouraged listeners to be skeptical, and to decide things for themselves, rather than accepting a "leader's word."

They taught that the Power of the Good Mind can be amplified by having groups of people search for common interests. They knew that clear thinking was the highest human potential, and that it was best achieved by stable extended family relationships that accepted the value of all members equally.

The Power of the Good Mind was developed into a philosophy to improve individual and community life through the power of peace, mutual respect, and common good.

{4} "Our principles do not change. Justice is always justice; freedom is always freedom. Great principles are constant. And so what they call the 'old way' is nothing more than principles. And they say you can't go back to the old ways -- which means you can't go back to justice, you can't go back to equality, you can't go back to what is right and what is wrong. Principles are how you exist above and beyond the emotions that you feel; to control and have discipline of one's self. Self-discipline, not people making you behave, but the discipline where you don't need police. That is how our people lived. There were no police. There were no jails. There were basic laws -- you don't lie and steal. Tell the truth. Be strong. Look out for your brother. Look out for the ones just underneath you. Look out for the elders.Use your strength on behalf of the Nation, on behalf of the people. Conduct yourself in a proper manner." -- Oren Lyons

The Iroquois thought was actually based primarily in peace. That is it's greatest strength -- peace. But we live in a world that values violence, and so quite often, the larger society looks at the military ability of the Iroquois. Their role in the Revolutionary War is often viewed in terms of their warriors. The 9-87 National Geographic shows the range of influence they had at that time. Again, however, the influence of trade relations with empire (this time the British) puts that focus on things military.

We can look at two of those concepts of self-defense, however, andapply them to our non-violent efforts, which are guided by that Bill of Rights. First, the PeaceMaker taught that alone, we are like individual fingers that our enemy can easily break .... but together, we can form a poweful fist. (There are variations on this, with a single arrow easilt broken, and a strong bundle.)

When we read DU today, we see that we have a wide range of issues. Some of us experience problems based on race; religion; sexual identity; education; jobs; and many others. Alone, we are individuals who our enemy -- and we have a common enemy -- can easily break. Together, we are a powerful fist.

The second lesson is equally important: it is the idea on a confederation. If I am involved in an environmental issue in New York, I benefit from having people involved in a fight against sexism in Pennsylvania help me. But, one hand must always wash the other: I must be willing to help them with their issue.

This comes into sharp focus today, in regard to the Supreme Court. The nominee put forth by the Bush administration will certainly effect some of the fingers on our hand more than others. But it is an error for some to think, "He's not so bad -- he poses no specific threat to me." He surely does. This is a time when we need to cooperate, and to oppose him, while we simultaneously work on Plame, and other issues.

We should not limit ourselves to fighting on any one front. We can fight on them all as a confederated force.

{5} "We must seek out out the spiritual people because only that is going to help us survive. We have a great force -- a great brotherhood. This brotherhood involves all living things. And that, of course, includes us all. We are talking about the natural world, the natural force, all the trees, everything that grows, the water. That is part of our force.

"But when you gather spiritual force in one place, you also gather the negative force. We begin to perceive the enemy now, the power and presence of the negative force.

"There is a great battle coming." -- Oren Lyons
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. Islands of spritual focus
are springing up everywhere. Throughout the land, people of concience are coming together to try to live honestly and independent of the spiritual compromises foisted on them by our constricting and soul-stealing society.

Doctrine is less and less important, just an honest spirituality is common ground enough.

The battle is here.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. "Who called these spirits to dance?"
Yes, it's that time! We are here, now.

"Real People" is almost always the name that those who exist within the framework of extended family refer to themselves. It always is in the context of experiencing life now. This is our turn. Let's make the most of it.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. Thank you for bringing this up. The Iroquois are rarely noted as influence
to the founders.

"At the time of the Revolutionary War, the most influential of our "Founding Fathers" -- Franklin, Jefferson, and Madison -- were students of the Iroquois Confederacy. Our first "great document," the Articles of Confederation, were based largely on Iroquois thought. Our system of federalism is based entirely upon the Iroquois model."

Excellent post, nominated.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. I always urge people
to read the Sept '87 National Geographic. Harvey Arden's article is one of the very best hat NG ever published. Usually, once people read that, they want to read his book "The Wisdom Keepers," which is conversations with the tribal elders across North America.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. Thank you - most excellent recommendation
Googling Harvey Arden now, very interesting path to follow.
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paineinthearse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. Harvey Arden
Edited on Tue Jul-26-05 05:46 PM by paineinthearse
Works by Arden

Dreamkeepers : a spirit-journey into aboriginal Australia
Travels in a stone canoe : the return to the wisdomkeepers
Wisdomkeepers : meetings with Native American spiritual elders

Related work:

Wisdom's daughters : conversations with women elders of Native America
Wall, Steve.
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. kick
nt
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. Very special. Thank you. Nominated. Distributed.


Peace.

www.missionnotaccomplished.us - How ever long it takes, the day must come when tens of millions of caring individuals peacefully but persistently defy the dictator, deny the corporatists their cash flow, and halt the evil being done in Iraq and in all the other places the Bu$h neoconster regime is destroying civilization and the environment in the name of "America."

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. I like that message
on www.missionnotaccomplished.us It reminds me, though this may indicate how scattered my mind gets, of a note that Robert Kennedy scribbled on a bus ride, to his good friend Allard K. Lowenstein, in late March of 1968:

"For Al, who knew the lesson of Emerson and taught it to the rest of us: 'that if a single man plant himself on his convictions and there abide, the huge world will come round to him.' "
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
5. Thanks H2O Man.
Unfortunately I'm on my way to work (here in California) so don't have time to read this now but I've saved it. We need a peace movement, a REAL peace movement in this country.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. Work?
I can't say for California, but here in NYS it's about 92 degrees. Glad I'm retired. It's far too hot to work. (grin)

Yes, there is a world peace movement coming. We need to reject the sickness of the violent, vindictive, and vicious people who are the cult of death leading humanity into darkness. We have everything, and everyone, that we need to turn things around.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
6. "We can fight on them all as a confederated force" Go here for my idea
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Well done.
Keep fighting the good fight!
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
7. Thank you H20 Man!
beautifully done! Thank you for adding significant inspiration to my day and tapping into my "good mind". I've said this before, but I intuitively feel this is the key to peace in our world.
Can I pass this on to friends?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. Please do.
I appreciate that you would think it is worth sharing it with your friends.
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
8. Excellent post, thanks
I'm going to do more research on the Iroquois...I've always been interested in Native American philosophy, and we don't give it enough credit. Thanks for reminding me.

Lots of good stuff in your post.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. I would recommend
anything by Oren Lyons and/or John Mohawk. Also, Harvey Arden & Steve Wall's "The Wisdom Keepers" is a great book.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. I might add "Travels in a Stone Canoe" by Arden and Wall to the list
Also "Wisdom's Daughters" by the same authors

Another great book from an African perspective is "Things Fall Apart" by Chinua Achebe.

H20, thanks for this great post. It is easy to be distracted and disillusioned by all the bad things happening in our country. I need to keep reminding myself that we need to remain strong, committed and to reach out together.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. I haven't read
Travels in a Stone Canoe." But I will!

I think "Wisdom's Daughters" is Steve without Harvey. It's a good book, that I would likewise recommend.

Also, though a little different, is one of our favorites, "Black Elk Speaks."
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. And we mustn't forget
"To Become a Human Being" by Leon Shenandoah.

Do you know of any good books relating the origins of the New England town meetings? They were modeled on Native American traditions as were parts of our constituion as I recall.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I'm not sure about books on that,
I'm trying to remember if Steve Nash's "Red, White, & Black," about the people of colonial America might.

Funny you mention that. Years ago, I was involved with Chief Waterman in a conflict (which became a court battle) that related to that. At a place where a large creek/small river intersected the Susquehanna, near what was the Fort Stanwix's Treaty line, marking the "western front" of New York, the Iroquois and Lenapes would meet under an elm tree at a large, glacial knoll. The site was called the "treaty elm" at the "Indian mound." There was a small Scotch-Irish community, related to Cherry Valley, nearby; it disappeared during the war. The Mohawk leader Joseph Brant made use of the area.

After the war, the local community held its first "town meetings" there. Many years later, the elm was taken down. Two gavels were made from it, and used in town court for years and years.

The mound was dug for gravel fill to cover a toxic waste dump site. The human remains removed during the construction of Interstate-88 "disappeared" from the NYS University system. And the 380 bones which "couldn't be identified" during the phase 2 study of the site also vanished.
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
39. Thanks, will do
n/t
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
9. I am guilty.
I am guilty of allowing my own passion and outrage at the corporacultist regime to infect my own healthy sense of gratitude for and appreciation of others. I didn't even realize how much my tone had changed until I had a conversation with my sister a few days ago. She sensed my anger. She asked me why I was so angry. Our conversation evolved into this battle of perceptions: both of us desperately wanting understanding, neither of us listening.

I had no idea that she believed my anger either involved her or was directed at her. She had no idea that my anger was tied into a passion concerning protection against those who exploit everyone, including her. Fortunately, our love for each other allowed us to eventually reach understanding. But, the emotional wrangling was painful and exhausting.

Afterwards, I realized that I was getting in my own way when reaching out to my sister. I felt heavy with sadness and guilt. So, I wrote her a note of apology, reflection and gratitude for her and her love.

To the extent that the outrage associated with my passion has poisoned my ability to reach out to you, I am sorry. We can do so much together. We need each other. I am ready to walk shoulder to shoulder with all of you through many battles.

Light & Peace!

H20 Man, you are like an anchor to me,...always bringing me back to the pieces of myself I most value. Thank you, kindly.

Now, let's go fight those assholes!!!!
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evolved Anarchopunk Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. beautiful. thank you.
one of my favorite books called Psychic Living by Andrei Ridgeway talks about projecting love internally, as you did with your sister, and eventually finding the right words because you can't help but say them to someone you really love and you would hate it MOST if THEY misunderstood you.

just as we must continue to smile at our enemies and talk with our sweet silver tongues about issues beyond their blinds and their blinders. i break into a wide smile a hundred times a day on the metro hoping to crack someone's facade. Run the water of love and reason through that enough and you have a river...

we are with you Just Me
(the irony of your name just struck me)
we are drops of a gathering river :hi:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. "It can be so hard
to remain objective in the midst of raging flames." -- Gandhi

We have to be patient. And that means being patient with ourselves, and with others. Your message to "Just Me" is exactly right.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. *LOL* It tickles me that you picked up on that irony.
Few do. Without understanding, there is little room for justice.

Thanks for sharing your favorite book,...sounds quite empowering. I'll have to search for it.

From one drop in that gathering river to another :hug:
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
10. Thank you teacher,
Now may I have some pointers to enrich my understanding so that I am a better advocate for peace? Where to start in the task of erasing my ignorance?

Consider this: 'that the creation is intended for the benefit of all equally'

How many peoples believed that they were the chosen, placed in control by divine aquatic ceremony, instead of embodying this humility before creation espoused by that one phrase?

-Hoot
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. A few of my friends
stop to see me, and it strikes me as hard to be as busy as they are. The pace of today's society is enough to keep people off balance. Many people do not have the opportunity to take time for themselves each day. Many never are in the natural world .... they live in concrete and metal.

It's too easy for me to say for others to take time and sit in the quiet woods, or to listen -- really listen -- to a creek run. But, even Indian people who live in the cities during the week return to the "reservation" or territory for the weekend. I think that is a model to use.

There is a good book called "Green Nature/Human Nature," by Charles Lewis. It is about the meaning of plants in our lives. Plants can alter our consciousness.

There's a lot to be said for what Luther Standing Bear was describing. His book "In the Land of the Spotted Eagle" is great.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
11. No Words
You've surpassed yourself!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
30. I wrote the outline
for this a week ago, and almost didn't post it. I wasn't sure if it made any sense. But this morning, I figured it didn't make that much difference: people are so used to my ramblings that they could read between the lines!
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
13. always a pleasure to log in to DU
and find your posts. Like a cool drink of fresh water. (no pun intended)

Keep up the wise instructions.

peace.
dp
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Thanks.
I'm glad to know that people enjoy the things I post here.
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
16. to know the seed
is great indeed. thankyou for this H20 Man. this is the first thing i read today.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Thank you.
"The ancestor and the womb are the same thing." It's good to study seeds!
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. many came before us to become us
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
23. PeaceMaker as ancestor....
Edited on Tue Jul-26-05 01:28 PM by Ojai Person
Thanks for this wonderful post. The name PeaceMaker especially stands out for me because today is the 6th anniversary of a dear friend's death. A Jimez Pueblo friend made an urn for his ashes back then, and on it he painted a figure he called the "PeaceMaker," and said it related to the spirit of the deceased.

With all of the "conscious" deceased I have encountered--who could be called ancestors--the theme you have delineated here of the PeaceMaker and how peace is the ability to work with others, stands out.

A few days after he died on July 11 of last year, my father shattered a plate while I was rehearsing the speech I was going to give at his funeral. Instead of giving my prepared speech, I spontaneously told of this incident at his funeral. One of my dad's Indian friends stood up and shared how he had told my father a dream he had had about a shattered pot. In his dream, the Creator said to him that it takes every piece of the pot to make it hold water again, how important it was for each of us to bring our little piece of the pot or the plate to the whole. I also saw how it meant that any one person's grasp of the pot was likely to shatter it, or be shattered.

Also, at the time of my friend's death, July 26, 1999, there was a lot of anomie around. Even the Pueblo Indian and his family were having a lot of discord while he was painting the pot. It made me think that the PeaceMaker appears or is invoked whenever there is widespread strife, no direction or sense of peace.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Very interesting.
Thank you for sharing that. I had been thinking of mentioning that in the Jesuit diaries, long before there was a "United States," they told of a curious thing the Iroquois did .... there was a ceremony, where extended families would get together and discuss the meaning of certain dreams. The people recognized that dreams communicate important messages, that -- if ignored -- can cause distress for a person. Of course the Jesuits were aware of the significance of dreaming in their bible. But something similar to the Iroquois ceremony would, many years later, be found in the work of Sigmund Freud.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #26
59. "Conscious Dreaming" by Robert Moss
"A Spiritual Path For Everyday Life"

describes his experiences with dream messengers and synchronicities that tie into upstate NY history and native people.

Best dream writer I've found. Grew up in Australia, natural dreamer, worked with native (Dreamtime) teachers there in his youth.

Thank you for the beautiful post.

:boring: may you dream true
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #23
67. beautiful
Yes, we are all drops in a gathering river... and it takes every piece of the pot to hold the water from that river, including those of the "other" or the "enemy."

I think it's time for me to stop the ridicule and name-calling, eh...

Sue
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wildflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
35. Thank you, H20 Man
Wonderful post, in so many ways.

Did you happen to hear Claude AnShin Thomas interviewed on Laura Flanders this past weekend? I believe it was one of the best interviews I've heard in a long time. Claude is a Vietnam veteran who is now a Buddhist priest, and recently wrote the book At Hell's Gate: A Soldier's Journey from War to Peace.

I wish there were more out there promoting peace and community as a solution.

-wildflower
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. No, I didn't hear it,
but it sounds exciting. I always like true stories that copy the "hero's journey," especially as described in Joseph Campbell's "Myths To Live By." There is a chapter (which is actually a speech he gave) called, "Schizophrenia - the Inward Journey," that I think is worth reading. It makes clear that we all, in some manner or another, can find meaning in the chaos of life. Certainly a journey that goes from being a warrior in Vietnam to being a Buddhist priest is just that! I will put it on my list of books to find and read, and thank you for suggesting it to me!
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wildflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. When listening, for some reason I was reminded of something you'd said
about boxers being peaceful people.

Laura's blog entry with his book and Web site is here (Sunday, July 24):

http://shows.airamericaradio.com/lauraflanders/

And the show on which she interviewed him is archived here (July 24 show):

http://airamericaplace.com/archive.php?mode=display&id=2178

I'm sorry, I don't know how to isolate the interview out of the whole 3-hr. broadcast.

-wildflower
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #38
82. Though there are
some exceptions, of course, boxers tend to be the most gentle of people. Most are this way from an early age on. A few are as a result of the violence they experience in the ring. And so, yes, this is an interesting example of something related to the topic at hand .... and it sure is nice to have people remember things one says!
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screembloodymurder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
40. H2O Man.
Edited on Tue Jul-26-05 03:56 PM by screembloodymurder
How did you pick your name?

In the immortal words of Rosanne Rosana Dana "Never mind".
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. ? n/t
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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
42. thank you

Very inspirational read, with wonderful excerpts of thought from america's native people

Its good to think of ourselves as the conscious ones - as 'a confederated force' which includes all of nature, as you say.
Its true that our society is isolated, fragmented, scared, and this vision is one that is the antidote for what plagues us.

I look forward to your writings, thanks for the inspiration.




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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. A while back
on Showtime, they played a movie from 1983, called "koyaanisquatsi." I think that I remember it correctly. It was based on a concept from the southwestern people, I think the Hopi, because I associated it in my mind with Thomas Banyacya, who was part of the Elder's Circle.

It was little clips of film put together in an almost hypnotic way, starting out beautiful, with water in all its forms, and then it became haunting, with the mess that mankind has created.

I was thinking about that this weekend, about the fork in the road that we have reached, and what our options are. I think about how ill people who want to drill for oil in the artic wilderness are .... and the words you used -- isolated, fragmented, and scared -- are so much a part of that. Not to pick on the guy, not to take a cheap shot .... but this guy George Bush thinks that wearing cowboy boots and using a chain saw make him someone in tune with nature .... which is as foolish as his thinking that donning a flight uniform and prancing around on an aircraft carrier made him a warrior. That's a tragic isolation from reality. Fragmented? He inhabits a shattered reality. And scared -- he defines the word coward.

The Bush administration is koyaanisquatsi. They are what those elders in the desert warned of. And that's why the Power of the Good Mind is so important today.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Sent This Thread To Friend & This Is Her Reply
"This is the true message, only through "peace and the light workers" will we be able to survive. This is the "great war" spoken of by the Hopi and all ancient tribes across the world. The "great war" is not for land or resources, the "great war" is for the soul of the earth and all who dwell. There are no elevated peacekeepers now and usually when great evil arises or an evil person there is another equal balance for the peacekeepers or the voice of peace. There is none now, not this pope, the Dahli Lama doesn't have that great a following, there isn't a country or name of a leader that resonates for people with peace or spirituality. To me that is very interesting and disturbing. It has made me wonder over the last three years if we are the peacekeepers."
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. Maybe,...
Edited on Tue Jul-26-05 09:55 PM by Just Me
,...we no longer require those visionary voices. Maybe, the visions they left behind has sufficiently empowered us to proceed THROUGH these dark times.

Consider the masses of human voice expressing itself over the last several years. MASSES on the streets,...like never before.

I think we should acknowledge such incredible movements. I'm amazed that we fail to appreciate such historical human precedents.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
44. Recommended. A post of sanity on a crazy day.
I've been noticing quite a number of divisive posts in GD recently, which is one of the reasons why I've only recently started posting here again, because it seemed like that had died down. But your post is filled with words of peace. So, thank you H2O Man, I feel much better now. :yourock:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. You are right, of course.
There is a big difference between healthy debate, and even heated debate, and divisive quarreling. Some of it has the potential to be good. The democratic party needs to move to the left in almost every area. That doesn't mean pushing the moderates out of the moving vehicle. It does mean that the moderates have been driving and have gotten us lost, and that we've been going in circles. Time to let some people of the left get behind the wheel. The left wing of the democratic party knows what direction we need to move in.
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
46. for the late nite crew
:kick:

dp
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
49. That's a pretty fiction, but not true.
The "Founding Fathers" did not get their ideas from the Iriquois.

I'm an Indian, so I'd really like for that fairy tale to be true. But it's not.

And the Iriquois were not particularly peaceful, either.

Flame away, folks, but it's the truth. sorry about that.

And, H20 man, this is not to say that your ideas are not valid; I believe they are. But the Iriquois / "FoundinfFathers" story is not.

Redstone
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. Actually it is true.
We've been through this before. You simply have no idea what you are talking about.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #53
62. Last night
at about 3am I woke up and thought about this. I was hoping that my original response to you did not sound hostile; in re-reading it, I don't think it does. I think we have a disagreement on an issue, but that it doesn't translate to a disagreement as people. About a week ago, a guy attacked me as a person on a thread about Plame. There is a huge difference between debating ideas, and personal attacks. So now, the Water Man will put your mistaken notion into a historical context, and then show where it is 100% incorrect .... but in a friendly way.

First, the context for those who may not be aware. My friend is of Abnaki (also spelled Abenaki) descent. The Abnaki were a confederacy of Penobscot, Passamaquoddy, and Malecite tribes; descendants live primarily in Maine, although there is a family up the road from me .... and I think you are probably related to them. (grin) They always display the hostility towards the Iroquois that is a result of the Abnaki alliance with the French, and the experience of being on the losing side of competing with the keepers of the eastern door of the Longhouse -- the Mohawk.

The Abnaki are remembered in Euro-American history as teaching the colonists how to fish correctly, and how to grow corn properly. THey also introduced the word "wigwam" to the white people. They were among the first Indians that the whites found living in palisaded villages, which was the result of their competition with the Mohawks.

In the European-induced trade wars in North America, the Abnaki Confederacy did not fare well. They were reduced in status by the British, and they long blamed the Iroquois. In truth, they had recognized that the French were less interested in stealing their land, than were the British. The Iroquois were capable of playing one side off the other in these conflicts, and the hostility towards the Iroquois did have a legitimate cause. But to allow such an ancient hostility to color one's thinking today is an error in thinking that we should comb from our minds.

In the next post, I will remove any and all doubt that a rational person might have regarding the Iroquois influence on the Founding Fathers.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #62
65. Haudenosaunee .....
I have recommended that people read the September 1987 edition of National Geographic. It has a wonderful article on the Iroquois, by Harvey Arden (with photos by Steve Wall).

There is a reason this edition had the article on the Iroquois. It went along with a fantastic article on James Madison, who was, of course, the architect of the U.S. Constitution. The article on Madison, by Alice Hall, should be required reading in high school classrooms.

Between this article, and the one on the Iroquois, are a few pages that speak to the relationship between the two sovereign peoples at that period in history. It includes some of the wampum belts, which were treaties. By no small coincidence, it was "Hiawatha" who created the use of wampum to record specific ideas and events. A number of the most important wampum belts had been illegally held by the NYS Museum for more than a hundred years; there is a photo on page 114 of "The Wisdom Keepers" of the day that many were returned to Onondaga. Some progressive white people helped make that happen -- I sat next to Nelson Rockefeller's daughter that day (she was one of the most honest voices in New York's educational system).

There are people who read wampum still, and some of those belts tell the history of the Iroquois influence on the Founding Fathers. But let's look at something that everyone on DU can read.

The book, "In the Absence of the Sacred," by Jerry Mander (Sierra Club Books; 1991) is another of the books that I strongly recommend people read. Chapter 13 is titled "The Gift of Democracy." Mander, who spent considerable time studying at Onondaga, and studied with Chief Oren Lyons, who he refers to as "prominent among the militant Onondaga leadership." (page 240) Oren served on the Onondaga Council of Chiefs, and Iroquois Grand Council of Chiefs, as the Faith Keeper to the Turtle Clan; Chief Paul Waterman was the Wisdom Keeper until his death; Oren now is an "elder." (Time sure flies!) Oren has long served as the director of Native American studies at the State University of New York at Buffalo. Some DUers will recall his classic interview with Bill Moyers on PBS in the early 1990s. When he speaks about the influence of the Haudenosaunee on the Founding Fathers, he speaks with the authority of an Iroquois Chief and as a respected scholar with the state university system.

Now, let's look at a few paragraphs from Mander's book:

"In addition to having day-to-day contact with the Indians of the mid-1700s, and carrying on negotiations in the Indian mode, the men who were striving to achieve independence, confederation, and democracy were struggling under another great burden: Nowhere in their own experience was there a working model of a democratic confederation of states. All of Europe at the time was under the rule of monarchs who claimed their authority by Divine Right. There were stirrings of democratic ferment in Europe, in the writings of Montesquieu, Locke, and Hume, who were being studied and discussed. And the Greeks provided a model, although it was 2,000 years old, only partially a democracy, not a confederation, and existed in an utterly different geopolitical context. Meanwhile, living side by side with these aspiring federalists, in constant negotiations with them, was an Indian nation that, beyond theory or historical abstraction, was an actual living example of a successful democratic confederation, united under a single law that had already survived for centuries ....

" Foremost among the maverick historians is Professor Donald Grinde, Jr, of the University of California at Riverside. In his book 'The Iroquois and the Founding of the American Nation,' Grinde argues that the Iroquois were a significant influence on the colonial leaders, who had nowhere else to turn. He quotes George Clinton, then governor of New York, as observing in 1747 that most American democratic leaders were 'people of republican principles who have no knowledge of democratic governments.' Grinde continues, 'The tribesmen of America seemed to many Europeans to be free of such abuses .... The colonists saw freedom widely exercised by American Indians. Even the cultural ignorance and racism of English colonists could not fully disguise their astonishment at finding Native Americansin such a free and peaceful state.'

"Grinde points out that James Madison made frequent forays to study and speak with Iroquois leaders. William Livingston was fluent in Mohawk, and visited and stayed with Indians over extended periods. John Adams and his family socialized with Cayuga chiefs on numerous ocasions. Thomas Jefferson's personal papers show specific references to the forms of Iroquois governance, and, says Girde, 'Benjamin Franklin's work is resplendent with stories about Indians and Indian ideas of personal freedom and structures of government. University of Nebraska professor Bruce Johansen has added that Franklin, who was in the printing business, was especially intimate with Indian thinking since he 'had been printing Indian treaties since 1736 and not only was he acquainted with them, he set the type.' Franklin was also present at an important meeting among Iroquois chiefs and several colonial governors in Lancastter, Pennsylvania, in 1744, at which time the chiefs recommended that the colonists stop fighting among themselves and form a union." (pages 230-233)

Out of respect for Red Stone, however, I will stop here, and allow him to present his proof to back up his claim. I will, for sake of showing that Iam merely warming up here, ask him to discuss his insights on the Albany Plan of Union, held in 1754, where the Founding Fathers invited forty-two members of the Iroquois Grand Council of Chiefs to help them deveope a structure in their first attempt at confederation. If this was not the Iroquois having an influence, what the heck was it? (grin)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. ?????
No response?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #68
84. While we wait .....
Among the framers of the United States Constitution, Benjamin Franklin was unique for his deep appreciation for Iroquois culture. He has increasingly been established as one of the most important links between Iroquois culture and the aspirations of the American Revolution. Franklin's views of Iroquois society have been called remarkable for their human rights orientation, and his decidedly realistic view of human nature. Those interested in reading more on this should read "The Forgotten Founders: Franklin, the Iroquois, and the American Revolution," by Bruce Johansen; Boston:Gambit; 1987.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #65
71. Great information!
Answers some questions I had posed an earlier post (#32). Thank you.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #71
77. Thanks.
I think that I did a fair job of answering Red Stone's claim, which he has made before, but doesn't ever respond to requests that he provide any evidence to support his claim. As I said, I'd like to hear his ideas on the 42 Iroquois chiefs who attended the Albany plan of Union meeting.

I mentioned professor Donald Grinde. Here's a quote from when he was interviewed on this topic in 1989 on National Public Radio by Catherine Stifter:

"People have {now} accepted the fact the Iroquois were at the Continental Congress on the eve of the Declaration of Independence and they're having to deal with the fact that John Adams was advocating the study of Indian governments, and that Adams observed that others among the founding fathers were advancing Indian ideas on the eve of the Constitutional Convention. But people have been led kicking and screaming into these realizations .... The promise and the vision that Indian societies provided to Europeans was that democracy did not die 2,000 years before in ancient Greece, {to be followed by} Divine Right monarchy as the evolution of government. In North America and i other places in the world there were people that were living without kings or landed nobility and who had systems of government that were clearly less coercive than those in Europe .... Some people {still} deny this. I believe for some people this is a problem ... It's difficult to entertain the idea that the founding fathers were relating to, talking about, and evaluating the ideas of non-white peoples .... it goes against the conventional wisdom of our society."
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
51. Important note from "Earth House Hold"
"Lewis Henry Morgan (d. 1881) was a New York lawyer. He was asked by his club to reorganize it 'after the pattern of the Iroquois confederacy.' His research converted him into a defender of tribal rights and started him on his career as an amateur anthropologist. His major contribution was a broad theory of social evolution which is still useful. Morgan's 'Ancient Society' inspired Engels to write 'Origins of the Family, Private Property and the State' (1884, and still in print in both Russia and China), in which the relations between the rights of women, sexuality and the family, and attitudes towards property and power are tentatively explored. The pivot is the revolutionary implications of the custm of matrilineal descent, which Engels learned from Morgan; the Iroquois are matrilineal."

-- Gary Snyder; "Earth House Hold"; 1968
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Mad Bear also spoke of this.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #55
73. ah, Mad Bear!
a beautiful spirit, we miss you friend!
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. He's here...I hope
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. yes he is
I'm Not Here

If you stand on my grave and weep,
remember I am not there, I do not sleep.
I am a thousand winds that blow,
I am the diamond glint on snow,
I am the new born babies cry,
I am the fluffy clouds in the sky,
I am the rainbow after the storm,
I am the fire that keeps you warm,
I am the colors of the sunrise at dawn,
I am the gentle baby fawn,
If you stand at my grave and weep,
you are not alone, I do not sleep,
I am the sunlight on ripened grain,
I am the gentle summer rain,
I am a small fragile sprout,
I am the deep green forest all about,
If you stand at my grave and weep,
remember my spirit soars. I do not sleep.
I am not hungry or alone,
I am the scent of grass, freshly mown.
when you wake up in the morning ,hush.
I am the swift uplifting rush,
Of quiet birds in circling flight,
I am the twinkle in an animals eye,
I am not gone my spirit is alive.
I am the gentle waves at the ocean shore
I love you forever and more
I am the light of the full moon
remember, we'll see each other soon.
If you stand at my grave and weep.
Remember I'm not there my spirit doesn't sleep.

By Laurie Alex 1997

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Greenbeard Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
52. Glad that we know a few
because it will take many "strong and true" spiritual individuals working together as a group to help us through the days ahead.

my definition of spiritual = non-hyprocritical

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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:02 PM
Original message
thanks for the great post
Unfortunately, I can't read it all at this late hour... so, I'm replying now so I can find it easier when I do have time.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
80. I look forward
to hearing what you think of it.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. I'm flattered
I will make sure to read tonight.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #80
88. terrific post, as usual
I agree with you that we have to help each other out and do a much better job of it. I need to do a better job of helping others, even if I don't agree with them 100% on every single issue.

That is one thing the Republicans do way better than us - the corporate Republicans often have little in common with the social / religious conservatives and who knows what people have in common with the neoconservatives... but, they all work together to promote the Right Wing agenda, with their common talking points and pseudo think tanks and the like working together to warp things like raping the environment into something Jesus & God would support.

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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
54. thanks for the great post
Unfortunately, I can't read it all at this late hour... so, I'm replying now so I can find it easier when I do have time.

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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
56. .
:7
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
57. Excellent post
good meditation material and now to make oneself do at least 15 minutes of meditation a day!
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #57
69. koans
We are all drops in a gathering river.

It takes every piece of the pot to hold water.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
58. .
:thumbsup:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 05:17 AM
Response to Original message
60. The only known human society where the capacity to store food surpluses--
--did NOT lead to state-level society and empire-building, but rather a federation of equals. Was this just a few people, or a big movement? If a movement, how organized? This stuff is really important, because either imperialism ends or we do.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. Haudenosaunee territory
was what today is called New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Tennessee, and Ontario. (Jerry Mander; "IN the Absence of the Sacred"; page 231) The extent of Iroquois influence in 1641-1701 can be found on a map on page 380 of the 9-87 National Geographic.

A story that might interest you: in the 3-89 National Geographic, there is an article on the subject of burial protection & repatriation. It focuses on the Slack farm in Kentucky, where ghouls had desecrated a burial ground, in order to find "artifacts" for sale. Well over 650 graves were robbed. It is known that some of the artifacts taken from the graves sold for over $4000 each.

Two things stand out for me. One was a pile of human jawbones that was about two feet high. The other was that Onondaga Chiefs went to do the reburial ceremony. Leon Shenandoah, the Tadodaho, was accompanied by Vince Johnson and Paul Waterman. Now, the governor of Kentucky was outraged by the destruction of the graves. It upset him. And he was surprised to have all the Indian representatives defer to Leon, Vince, and Paul. I wasn't present, but Leon would tell me later about their first meeting. The governor said, "I don't want to be rude, but I really want to do this right. Why are you guys from New York here in Kentucky?" And Leon handed him the 9-87 National Geographic. The governor read it, and he understood.

When the Soviet Union had a huge problem with the nuclear reactor, though it was not reported in the corporate media, Gorbachev invited members of the North American Elder's Circle to come to talk to him about what it meant. Paul Waterman's sister, Audrey Shenandoah, an Onondaga Clan Mother, connected with him on what the significance was. Even President Bush1 had meetings with traditional leaders to discuss his concerns with the severity of the environmental damage that industry was causing.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #61
70. what's changed?
-- When the Soviet Union had a huge problem with the nuclear reactor, though it was not reported in the corporate media, Gorbachev invited members of the North American Elder's Circle to come to talk to him about what it meant. Paul Waterman's sister, Audrey Shenandoah, an Onondaga Clan Mother, connected with him on what the significance was. Even President Bush1 had meetings with traditional leaders to discuss his concerns with the severity of the environmental damage that industry was causing. --

This is very interesting. May I ask what the significance was?

Also, the current anomie must be so divisive and chaotic that leaders cannot think around these issues any more at all. Even GB1 supports his son and has nothing of wisdom to learn or impart these days.

The only hope is in us, the people. There is probably a lesson there, and isn't that what democracy means anyway?

Sue
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #70
72. "May I ask
what the significance was?" Tell me what you think the significance might be? What would the significance of the leaders of the two largest industrial powers, at that time, calling upon the leaders of modern societies' older sibling?
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
63. humans
As long as we can look at another person and think they are different, we still have more progress to make. And I would add, as a person that thinks animals have rights too, if you don't feel the pain of other creatures because they are "different" than humans, there also needs to be more progress. I think many indians were status conscious, to have the most horses or whatever, and their were also spiritual leaders among them. Maybe they revered their spiritual leaders more than we do. Christianity puts humans way above animals, so there is one of my problems with it. Bush and company are totally using the religion card in our country, just to tie my post in with the hot topic of the day. :think:
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Theres-a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
64. Thank you for this.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
66. kick
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
74. California morning kick
:kick:
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Sparkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
75. when they came for the gypsies, i didn't speak out, when they came for the
jews i didn't speak out, for i wasn't a jew...when they came for me, there was no one left to help! This is spiritual stuff, and causes one to pause, unity uber allus.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
79. Typically great post.
:patriot:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #79
85. Thank you. n/t
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sintax Donating Member (891 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
83. Glad to have seen this post
Remaining pockets of biodiversity correspond precisely and without exception to the remainig pockets of indigenous people.
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 06:06 AM
Response to Original message
86. I saved this and I thank you for sharing so much. I only just thought I
Edited on Thu Jul-28-05 06:33 AM by anarchy1999
was knowledgeable about our history. Thank you for enriching us more.

It makes so much sense.

On edit:

Thank you ever so much H2O! You rock. and woohoo.

:woohoo:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. Thank you.
History is calling to us. The qualities that define leadership in a traditional society seem so very opposite of what our culture values today. Because here -- and especially in America -- it has become accepted that a person who is said to possess knowledge any a particular public field, is worthy of "power" .... without society demanding that the person consider their own Level of Being.

Today in America, a person can be considered worthy of being a Supreme Court Justice, a Senator or Congressman, a senior White House official ... and still have not only the ability .... but actually the "right" .... to be a petty, egotistic, mean, envious, vain, malicious snake! Is Karl Rove not proof that America places great value on the level of a person's knowledge, but no shame on their low level of being?

In traditional society, a person like Karl Rove would be shunned. He would have no power at all. He would be considered a failure. He would never be considered a "leader." We need to get back to some of those "old fashioned" values.
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