Grand Theft Auto

[bryant69]

A few points.

1). It's entertaining to watch several posts a day, on which people seem to have hours to discuss this issue, all complaining that Clinton is wasting her time by going off on this issue.

2). The arguments being put forward by people in favor of Grand Theft Auto are occasionally good (particularly when they stick to the first amendment implications of the case), but just as often are about the level of "Look, shut up. I like Grand Theft Auto, so screw you."

3. It is possible to think that the Grand Theft Auto games are troubling and probably have some negative consequences on society while also being concerned about protecting the first amendment. The sad truth about the first amendment is that 95% of the time you have to protect crap; because crap is what people go after.

4. Before you accuse me of being a hypocrite for starting my own post on this subject, please note I don't think this subject is a waste of our time, nor of Hillary Clinton's. While not the most important subject, it's worth some time.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[OrlandoGator]

1. It's not even the tenth most important issue.

Cartoon sex in a video game is irrelevant compared to children being raped and blown apart for no good reason in Iraq.

[returnable]

5. Well, it's important in that these video games...

...may in fact create a culture where such wartime atrocities are actually accepted. Or at least tolerated.

Or maybe they just reflect a mindset that already exists.

Still, I think it's worth discussing.

[ixion]

8. I whole-heartedly disagree with that

you simply cannot blame cartoons, music and video games for the decline of civilization.

I would blame the leaders, first, including Hillary in this case, because she's wasting time and resources fighting something that is irrelevant.

[returnable]

20. Actually, you and I are in agreement.

I just said it was worth discussing.

[ixion]

21. lol... fair enough

it is worth discussing. :-) :hi:

[SheepyMcSheepster]

2. i think the point of contention is

the part of GTA they (clinton etc.) are going after was never meant to be in the release.

so that trumps any discussion on the societal impact of games like these.

these threads seem to disolve into:

person 1: rockstar did it on purpose!
person 2: no they didn't
person 1: yes they did
person 2: no they didn't
person 1: you don't care about our children
person 2: children shouldn't be playing these games
person 1: rockstar did it on purpose!

[fujiyama]

9. LOL

That summarizes the last twenty or so threads on that subject.

[OrlandoGator]

24. But what about the CHILDREN!

If I buy rated M (Mature, 17 and over) games named after a felony for my 6 year old...I want my government to protect me from that. When the previous two chapters of the series involved extreme violence, gore, sex, drugs and crime...I should act all surprised and outraged when the next one does as well! When the rating and content are clearly marked on the front of the package and several websites offer detailed reviews of every video game...someone else should keep track of all that!

Who will look out for my children? Isn't that someone else's job?

[SteppingRazor]

3. Look, shut up. I like Grand Theft Auto, so screw you!

Just kidding.

But I do think there are First Amendment issues to consider here, just as there were with 2 Live Crew a couple decades ago. It's up to parents to regulate their children's upbringing, not the government.
And besides, it's not just First Amendment. It's also the Fourth, and the right to privacy that eminates from both of them.

[bryant69]

6. Yes

If we are talking banning the game, I would agree, despite the fact that I think the games are crap.

If we are talking about a rating system, well the movie industry has had a rating system for decades now - and while it's not perfect, it has generally worked.

Bryant

[SteppingRazor]

10. Admittedly, I'm a fan of the games. Good, mindless fun...

But games already have a rating system. The fact that it's not enforced well isn't the fault of the game makers, but the retail stores that carry the games.

[InfoMinister]

81. Do You Catch The Social Satire

I think there's more to the game if you listen to some of the radio shows and how they satirise different decades and the politics going on during that time. It's something extra that gives it a whole different level.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Ok read the statement

and some background

Some years back the gaming companies agreed to self regulate with labels. Now the point is, thees labels are VOLUNTARY and don't have any enforcement whatsoever

If you folks are against labels, do we need labels in food? What about medicines? I could make the same argument that we don't need them in either of them... on first amendment rules

Nobody is talking of banning the games, just giving some teeth to the agreement made by the companies and this was brought forth by the code in the game, the hot coffee mod which is not truly a mod since the content was in the distro disk, whether disabled or not.

[Jack_DeLeon]

104. They shouldnt have any enforcment...

Government should not be regulating games or movies.

Movie ratings are also voluntary, its not illegal to for a kid to see an R rated movie.

It would most definatley be fucked up to allow the government to rate movies, video games, music, and books, and then also allow the government to use its police powers to enforce said ratings.

I dont want to live in that fucked up kind of nation.

[jojo54]

4. No, bryant, it's not a waste of time.

I'm one of the "1st amendment" speakers because it's there for a reason.

But I also believe that parents are the ones who have to protect their children and if they can't take the time to do that, then shame on them.

[ixion]

7. my argument is this: you and Hillary should stay out of my computer

but there are others.

Tipper Gore's similar onslaught against the music industry resulted only in a marketing gimic.

The truth is that games and music do not destroy society, the leadership does. And what we face now is so dire I can't fathom while people would waste precious time talking about the content of a video game.

[Enraged_Ape]

11. Why was the XXX-rated code even in the game to begin with?

I know it requires some sort of elaborate machinations to get to, but the fact of the matter is, the code is still there and it should not be. It was put (and left) there intentionally by some Rock Star programmer(s). Why? As a joke? As a "wink-wink-nudge-nudge" to their gaming buddies?

Whoever put it there should be fired. The remaining games on the shelves should be withdrawn, the offending code removed, then the game reissued. Then that should be the end of it.

[LoKnLoD]

16. After they reissue a clean version

I can sell my version with the X-rated parts on ebay for $250, it's the American way.

[Enraged_Ape]

46. Hey, man, I'm all for that

Just don't be selling it to little kids, now. They're packing a lot of dough these days.

[Jack_DeLeon]

105. Why not, it would not be illegal.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

31. as i undesrtand it

it was probably left in as an oversight or to keep from having to deal with any problems/bugs removing the code might cause.

[gollygee]

53. Now it's XXX?

it went from Mature to Adults Only and now to XXX?

As I understand it, we're talking about simulated sex between cartoon characters that still have their cartoon clothes on. I've seen worse than that in dozens of R rated movies.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

58. that's my question too

what criteria is this "XXX" rating being based on.

[InfoMinister]

82. Rumors and Overexaggerations N/T

[Greyhound]

93. Check out this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3726703&mesg_id=3726703
I just find it, well not funny, because it is drawing attention away from really important matters, but ironic(?). This game is designed, top to bottom, to be totally offensive, it ridicules and demeans everything from people to music to 'urban culture', it's a game, it's fun and funny. It certainly is not a campaign platform. :freak:

[queeg]

12. More killing, less porn

I want to shoot people in the face, bang prostitutes, traffic drugs, steal cars, and terrorize police officers without this filthy smut in my game. Frankly, I'm appalled that Rockstar would allow such wholesale corruption of our youth. Years from now when America has become a withered husk of the morality it once stood for, historians will look back at what triggered it all and point to one event: a boolean variable that unlocked a simulated sex scene in a video game.

[manic expression]

30. Please...

GTA is perhaps the least accountable for moral decay. Think of what you're saying: a video game is destroying society? Are you serious? Japan plays 10x more video games than we do, and yet our culture is 20x more down the gutter. It's a problem with the people and the environment, and that is all. If you go to the Netherlands, prostitution and marijuana is legal, however, the people are gracious and nice and generous and kind. There is still vulgar music and violent video games, and their society is very good.

It is NOT the video games or vulgarity, it is the people, period.

[ConfuZed]

42. Thank You

[InfoMinister]

84. It Was Satire And It Sounds Ripped off From Maddox N/T

[queeg]

94. I ripped it off from somebody---just saved the text not the who

nt

[livinginphotographs]

68. Might want to add the "sarcasm" icon.

I thought your post was funny, but it looks like some other people didn't get it.

[Endangered Specie]

153. plagarism!

Got that from www.thebestpageintheuniverse.com didnt you?

[redqueen]

13. Here's what I don't get...

this game (and many others) are overflowing with mindless, explicit violence.

Why is that not a problem, but the sex is?

Was the sex rape? Was it otherwise depraved? Because if it wasn't... I really don't get why anyone's that upset. It's just sex, FCOL.

[bryant69]

17. I have to say I agree

The sex is the least part of the problem - I have a bigger issues with the glorification of violence and murder and underlying misogyny.

[gollygee]

56. Absolutely

I have issues with this game, but some cartoon character sex isn't one of them.

[DaveJ]

14. Isn't Hillary just doing her job?

Her constituency probably does not want their children to possess pornography, and selling pornography to minors is illegal, and it is her job to enforce those laws. (okay it is 'cartoon sex' but games are getting so realistic that it's hard to tell the difference)

[maxsolomon]

15. things are more like they are now than they've ever been.

yawn.

hillary is pulling a "sister souljah". "its jus' politics", as * would say.

how i would love to live in a country with a viable social libertarian party.

[Stirk]

18. Any senator who goes on a crusade about video games in these

times should be ashamed.

Can you really say video game violence has any business even being on the radar screen at the same time the PATRIOT Act was up for renewal, when the Bush Administration refuses a court order to turn over photos and videos of torture, when DSM is out there, etc., etc.?

I've never liked this video game grandstanding (Lieberman's been doing it for at least 10 years)- but these days it makes me angry.

If anyone remembers Hillary Clinton's video game soapbox adventure in 100 years, it'll be for comedy's sake only.

[DaveJ]

19. We can't let the disaster that has befallen our government

stop us from trying to remain civilized. We can't just give up on everything else because of them.

[OrlandoGator]

22. Playing a game in which you pretend to be uncivilized...

...doesn't make you uncivilized in real life.

[DaveJ]

26. I know, I'm just saying...

We (as in the Democratic party) should still run the government as though an insane maniac weren't in charge. Under normal conditions it is appropriate to strongly consider taking GTA off the shelves because it is pornography and pornography is illegal.

Hey I play an online shootem' up game myself and enjoy killing people in virtual reality, so I know it doesn't make people bad. But the law is the law. Porn is illegal (edit: to sell to kids) and Hillary is doing her job.

[nookiemonster]

91. I don't know about that...

I'm getting really mad with the flamethrower and pretty damn good with the subs from my BMX bike.

:sarcasm:

I find it therapeutic, so there. :P

[KittyWampus]

23. Exposing The Hypocracy Of Liberals Who Play Violent Video Games But

yet critique Bush and others for their Bloodlust and violent behavior is important.

Also, we want to regulate Big Business cause on their own, they are abusive and care only about profit.

Liberals do NOT consider Big Business as having Individual Rights and Priviledges.

Yet in the case of Content, we want to consider Big Business as having Individual Rights and Freedom of Speech.

IWO, for-profit multinational corporations should be able to say or show anything they want without regulation of any kind.

Just like individual citizens.

[name not needed]

25. Could you explain that

How exactly does playing violent video games and being liberal make you a hypocrite?

[KittyWampus]

27. You Either Reject Bloodlust Or Embrace It. Be The Change You Want

to see in the world.

Also, your subconscious mind doesn't understand the RATIONALIZATION that "it's only a game".

And while we may acknowledge Violence as a part of life, it's another thing entirely to engage in it for it's own sake on ANY level.

[mccoyn]

32. These liberal gamers are all thought criminals. Persecute! -nt

[DaveJ]

34. Nah, violent games are fine...

When I go online and shoot people in VR my subconscious mind knows it's a game. These games could easily be modified so that we try to hit each other with daisies but that simply would not be exciting. I am completely anti-war and promote the use of technologies that would help to avoid war.

Actually how do you know that playing violent video games might not make people more apt to avoid war? Maybe these games serve as a valve to release our aggressive emotions peacefully instead of on others in real life.

[KittyWampus]

92. You Are Incorrect. Your Subconscious, By Definition, Does NOT Rationalize

simple fact.

And the question is contributing to Violence throughout society not just your own immediate environment.

[DrGonzoLives]

35. Yay! I'm a hypocrite now!

Thanks, it's been too long since I've been called one here at DU. What a relief, I thought I was slipping.

[name not needed]

38. Me too!

:eyes:

[DrGonzoLives]

39. Let's start a club

We can have a secret handshake and everything.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

47. count me in as well!

maybe we can start a hypocrites group?

[Norwood]

99. I guess that means I'm a hypocrite too!

I'm sorry but approval of violence and bloodshed in Iraq != approval of violent video games such as GTA.

I am very anti-war but I also enjoy playing games such as GTA, Half-life 2 and Doom 3. The real problem here is people who want to blame their sub-par parenting on someone else. If there is an M on a video game then a 9 year old should not be playing it.

Although I think retailers do deserve part of the blame being that many of them dont card. Having retailers consistently card those who wish to buy these games would help immensely.

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. Amen

great points.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

106. Hey...

As fun as this discussion is, everyone should just come over to my house. We'll play some video games. Bring your controllers!

I'm playing San Andreas right now, and murdering hookers!

[Catholic Sensation]

107. isn't it a one player game?

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

111. We need someone to be the hooker!

Because the video games are so life like that we'll think we're in the video game and start randomly shooting people with a gun that will turn up out of the middle of nowhere! Duh.

:sarcasm:

[Catholic Sensation]

121. to quote the youngest child in the Boondocks

I was already a criminal before I got this game. Heck, I even stole it!

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

124. Oh see

San Andreas taught me that I could get points for shooting people and those points would help me buy clothes and get tattoos and piercings. I really want a nose ring, I'm actually planning on going out tonight and getting the job done.

[Catholic Sensation]

127. Vice City taught me that Haitians steal my cocaine

so whenever i'm about to do a deal, I kill everyone in the vicinity of the deal with a hammer or a golf club, then i kill some hookers. The funny thing is, before I played Vice City, I was an engineering student. Afterwards, I became a straight up gangsta ass criminal.

G-G-G-G-G GEZUS CHRIST WHOEVER THINKS GAMES EQUAL REALITY NEEDS THEIR HEAD EXAMINED.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

The hammer's my favourite!

<3

[Catholic Sensation]

135. nothing scares off a potential juror like a hammer to the car

HOLLLLAAAAAA

[name not needed]

139. You're better off using a blowtorch

[Catholic Sensation]

142. WELL I WASN'T GIVEN ONE

I WAS TOLD TO USE A HAMMER! :grr:

[livinginphotographs]

73. Who said no regulation?

The regulation is there. It's called a rating. Kids have been sneaking into R-rated movies for years, and I don't here Hillary Clinton shooting her mouth off about that?

But since you're so holier-than-thou about our supposed support of bloodlust, I assume you don't eat meat, right? Otherwise, that would make you a.....wait for it.....wait for it......HYPOCRITE.

[Kraklen]

97. Liberals can distinguish between fiction and reality.

At least most of us.

[Catholic Sensation]

118. Do you like The Godfather?

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Far more than just what you said

let me make the point I made in a threat I started about this

Corporations, Malfeasance and acceptance of the status quo
Ok we had our argument about GTA... but the more that I think about it those threads revealed something quite disturbing

Ok let me explain.

When a Corporation does something for which it should be criticized we tend not to. I have seen this over and over again. Some of my personal experience...

As a freelancer I write science fiction in the gaming industry. One particular company took material from me and never paid. They just changed it by 30% and used it. I was told by the professional organization that I should just take this in the chin and this is a business loss.


A second company tried the same trick... they got an IP Excision Contract and then they blamed me for them having to can their line.

Neither of these two companies (in one case a successor company or two) are willing to admit what they did... in other words personal responsibility is not in their vocabulary.

Rockstar actually admitted their wrong doing in company statements and people defended them and actually blamed the parents for the problems

No use in revisiting that one.

Now lets take this all the way... the President has YET to apologize for any thing he has done. IN fact the Plane Traitor Gate has one thing in common with three small fry... never admit a mistake.

Now here is what occurred to me today. The fact that people protect and defend companies that produce their favorite shiny baubles, instead of holding them responsible translates to us as a nation tolerating this at the highest levels of government. Yes many of us want to change this, but I fear change will also have to include not tolerating the status quo when mom and pops, or Wall Mart or the President of the United States. Otherwise we are truly deluding ourselves for the cancer is still there. That cancer is our resistance to actually place blame where it belongs and to keep passing the buck.

There was a time when taking responsibility for our actions was an american value. This still exists in certain pockets such as the military (or at least most of it, the virus is quickly spreading there as well). But for the most part we now live in a country that lacks community, and most importantly a sense of responsibly. If I can blame somebody else, it is far easier than if I can do what I need to do, even admit guilt.

Anyhow.. over the last 48 hours I got involved in this very hot discussion about Rockstar and at the end of it, I realized, we have been indoctrinated to the point that for the most part Corporations are incapable of doing any wrong and Enron shocks us, but the individual is guilty of everything.. I mean the (insert group to be blamed here) should have known better. And for the record I have been told, you should have known better... so I guess stealing is now an American Value.

In other words, the Fascists have won: Mission Accomplished

[Locrian]

33. totally agree - its over

and they won. We havent been "free" for some time now.

Interesting how in the persuit of self-interest we have given up our minds / freedom to corporations. Partly in an attempt to run from our own failings.

I dont know if we as a society could ever handle true freedom. Because true freedome is believing in your own self w/o focusing only on yourself.

[Greyhound]

100. Excellent post, if I may say so. Since when was stealing not

an American Value? I think the bottom line is, we suck, we have sucked, we will continue to suck. :shrug:

[DrGonzoLives]

36. An observation

There have been two blockbuster GTA games before San Andreas, II and Vice City. I remember some people grumbling about them, but not on this level.

As an observation, I'd just like to point out something:

1) In III and Vice City, you play a white guy working with (most of the time) white criminals.

2) In San Andreas, you are a black guy working with black gangs.

Kinda strange, then, that all this is coming about now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. I think it is the tripple x marerial in there that has broght this

and they did it to themselves, for the record

[DrGonzoLives]

43. Play the other ones

There's XXX material in those as well.

Rockstar didn't "do this to themselves," it was little idiot no-life hackers who unlocked this part and started all this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. The code was left in the distro disks

they did it to themselves

There was a time when even the admission of responsibility (they did) was enough for people to go, wow they admit their mistakes, that is a man

Of course that was also the America where a President had on his desk a sign, "the buck stops here."

When people criticize bush for not taking responsibility, look in the mirror, these days the new American value is how to get away with murder and NEVER admit a mistake.

For the Record Rocktar did admit their mistake, (read their last statements) and they are paying a price, they are re mastering the disks, for a new distro that will be able to remain M, otherwise they would have to live with the AO label and the implications of that.

The company admitted it, but people still refuse to admit it?

This is why Bush and Enron happen, we are willing as a society to give them a free pass. I know what Senator Clinton wants in this case, enforcement of the VOLUNTARY labeling system, but oh no they are gonna take away my shiny baubles.

Sorry if I don't identify. Oh and I am far from a puritan by the way.

[InfoMinister]

86. It's Actually Just A Script You Can Edit In The Section About Mission Data

They didn't reverse engineer anything. From what I've read in the GTAforums it's just the scripts that people use to edit cars, edit misions, etc. So you're basically saying that the regular GTA mod community are a bunch of losers. I love their work. There are a bunch of car mods, the Multi-Theft auto mod, and the map mods as well. Really cool stuff that increase the replayability of the game. So I don't like the idea of disrespecting people that are working on doing some cool stuff that make the game more fun just as a hobby. I think it's pretty cool of them to actually do what they're doing.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

55. this is seriously considered "tripple x material"

i find that hard to believe.

two models in a video game simulate sex acts.
i don't get it.
Team America (movie by the south park guys) had puppets having sex and they got a "R" rating.

just curiuos as to your criteria for classifying this stuff as "tripple x".

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. It is not my criteria

it is the Ratings Board.

For the record I suspect they threated AO because the code was hidden... It is called a message, and I think the industry has gotten it loud and clear.

[charlie]

60. They called it "explicit"

Triple xxx is your own characterization.

They slapped it with an AO because a senator is riding the ESRB's ass and a Congressional investigation is pending.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. No they went AO because they did not remove that code

sorry they did it to themselves, at least THEY ADMIT IT and are willing to pay the price.

When will their fans do the same?

Seen this from fans for multiple games, there is nothing wrong the company can do, as long as they get their shiny baubles

Why is the investigation being threatened, that code is the reason.. the companies don't want regulation, they'd better make the retailers card kids, oh wait they can't they have no regulatory power. Yet the movie industry, for the most part, manages.

They don't have regulatory power either.

[charlie]

65. They didn't "admit it"

I've showed you that before.

The ESRB president went from explaining to reporters that leaving unused code in distribution copies is a common industry practice to changing the rating in a mere 3 days. The heat was on. It's as good an explanation as yours.

And can the hackneyed "shiny baubles" and no one cares about corporate rot but meeeee crap. It was tiresome and disingenuous the last 10000 times.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Yes they did, but that is okay

I have seen this repeatedly, and the problem is NOT the game itself. The problem is what this discussion is reflecting about society... the society we live in. NOBODY IS WILLING TO ADMIT A MISTAKE and even when admitted, people are not willing to see it. NO WONDER George Bush has not admitted a mistake in his life either... hey it works man... people seem to respect that far more than to owning to their mistakes. The society where the buck stops here is dead, and no this is not the fault of a game... ironic, that it could be a game company that producers a game names after a felony that could start us on the right road... but alas, people still say they did not admit it.

Oh well... I am done... people are dense, just don't complaint about the next problem with Halliburton... this is all on the slide of ethics or rather lack off in this country... and I am sickened by it.

[charlie]

69. Enjoy your martyrdom

Keep finessing the argument over whether they did admit with whether they should admit it and you'll get to keep that hairshirt as long as you like.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. It is not martyrdom it is what this tells me about the ethcis in this

country, as I said, they won... there is nothign corporations can do wrong anymore for somebody will defend them, even here... even when they admit it.

Sad but true, very sad but true.

Oh and go play with your new toys... shiny baubles and all

[charlie]

75. Don't like GTA

Don't like Rockstar. You learned that the last time you tried that ad hominem. Got some shiny nails for you, though. Maybe some thistles to freshen that crown?

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Charlie I actually have lots of respect for Rockstar

they OWNED to their mistake, they admitted their mistake, the buck stopped somehwere... they are CORRECTING their mistake.... for that they actually get my admiration.

That said, you, like many others I know, are willing to basically allow their favorite shiny bauble producer do anting, as long as you get your shinny bauble. Now what if that shiny bauble was oil? Then you would be defending Halliburton.

See that is the point... and this is a point you are having a lot of problems wrapping your head around, even your favorite corporations may do and (will do) something wrong at some point. Does Rockstar compare to Halliburton? No, but they are in a scale of ethics. They did this to themselves, the difference is they admitted their mistake and now they are moving on... when was the last time Halliburton admired a mistake? How large is Halliburton? We as a society reward that, not Rockstar admitting a mistake and paying the price.

I am saddened you cannot even see it

Oh and as to whether I like GTA or not... it is not a game I would play.. played the real deal for ten years as a medic picking up the pieces, so I really have no need to escape to that fantasy, but that is me. Would I allow my nephews to play it? No, when my nieces visited many years ago we allowed them to play with the Nintendo, guess where my copy of Doom was? If you guessed at the top of the closet you are correct.

Does the industry need to actually police itself? Absolutely and if they don't they will be policed.

[charlie]

85. Your admiration is misplaced

Paul Eibeler, president of Take Two, defended the company by issuing a statement: "The decision to rerate a game based on an unauthorized third party modification presents a new challenge for parents, the interactive entertainment industry and anyone who distributes or consumes digital content."

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050726/1067320.asp

However, Rockstar president and CEO Paul Eibeler continues to insist that Hot Coffee was an "unauthorised third party ... modification," with president and CEO Paul Eibeler stating last night: "We are deeply concerned that the publicity surrounding these unauthorized modifications has caused the game to be misrepresented to the public and has detracted from the creative merits of this award winning product."

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=10256

He owned up to exactly what, now? If that's not enough for you, here's the ESRB president's statement:

She did note, however, that "the material was programmed by Rockstar to be inaccessible to the player and they have stated that it was never intended to be made accessible."

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=10256

Sorry you're wasting your time being sad, since I don't think that the notion most corporations will do anything that'll enhance their bottom line is an unreasonable assumption.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

76. oh yes, this is the same as overcharging taxpayer's for financial gain

:sarcasm:

rockstar and halliburton's situations are totally different.

i would love to see how you can compare the two.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. it is called a sliding ethics ruler

ethics and what is accepted as a society for corporatiosn goes on a slide from your mom and pop to Wallmart and what practices are accepted by a society are usually reflected by its largets corporations. Look arond and list them, and I am amazed how you still defend them.

by the way you also subcribe to the school that bidness is war with winners and looers right? If you do, that is Halliburton's and Wallmart and businesses colleges school of thought

[SheepyMcSheepster]

102. we just see things totally differently with regards to this

as for your comment about business is war.......... i don't know where that came from.

i fail to see how my opinion of the rockstar situation relfects my attitude on a whole towards coporations.

i believe what happened to them was unexpected and that they will take precautions to avoid this type of situation in the future. who am i still defending? rockstar? yes i will defend them because people tell lies about the situation: the previously unaccesible content isn't XXX, it was never meant to be played, it wasn't left in to "sneak under the radar".

It pisses me off that people feign outrage over a sex mini-game in the context of a game that glorifies sex and violence already. from it's title you can tell that it is not meant for children. it is what it is, the sex mini-game adds nothing that isn't already there and was never meant to be available in the first place.

the funny thing is, if people out there would have behaved "ethically" with the game (ie. adhereing to rockstar's license agreement) we wouldn't even be having this discussion becuase the content would have never been unlocked and modified. if people had behaved ethically when trying to gain political points there wouldn't be these misconceptions out there that rockstar was trying to sneak porn into unspecting people's homes.

[Jack_DeLeon]

110. What is shown if it were in a movie with real people would only be rated R

which is the equivalent of the M rating it already had.

There is no penetration it would not be a porn movie, and thus it doesnt deserve the AO rating.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

61. what ratings board?

the ESRB?

this is what they have:

ADULTS ONLY
Titles rated AO (Adults Only) have content that should only be played by persons 18 years and older. Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity.


don't see any mention of "XXX" there.

link: http://www.esrb.com/esrbratings_guide.asp

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. AO stands for ADULT ONLY,

you read between the lines

The game was given originally M rating, which is muddy, but the huge difference is, M is distributed by major stores, such as Wally Mart and K-Mart, AO is not

[SheepyMcSheepster]

64. my beef is with the language you use

"XXX" is what i consider real life in your face porn.

models in a video game clumsily performing sex acts doesn't really make for XXX material in my book.

that is my only problem. to me it seems you want characterise it as actual real life full blown pornography, which it is not, imo of course

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. you can object to whatever you want

it IS THE CODE, it is in distro disks, they did it to themselves and boy they are willing to pay the price... and as I said, I suspect they were slapped the AO because of that code.

It is called a message... received loud and clear.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

74. i don't deny that it was stupid to leave it on the disk

but at the same time i think people over look the obvious reasons for leaving it on (forgot it was there or it might break stuff if they moved it). i just find it a bit much for people to proclaim that rockstar intentionally left this "XXX" content (which imo it is not) on their final build so that john doe could figure out to unlock it in the future.

i feel like alot of the dialogue around this game and this incident is sensationalism, much like your "XXX" rating for it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. If you think it is sensationalism

so be it... they were stupid, they ADMITTED IT, they are paying a price, they are moving on.

Most importantly, THEY OWNED their mistake, how refreshing in this country and I am amazed all of their defenders don't see it... cannot see it and will not see it.

[Greyhound]

101. Good point. Team America was more explicit. IMO

[stanwyck]

37. Why don't you just buy porn?

if pornographic images are what you want. Fine. There's plenty available. Why the "secret squirrel" go here and get the password and access the porn in the game? It's so juvenile. So middle-school snarky. The company only does these little tricks to reel in the fish. It's marketing.
Be an adult. Buy porn.
Then these cutesy "hidden" images won't even be an issue. And the parents won't have an argument.
(cause if you don't think is all a contrived way to sell more games, then you're hopeless. Deluded.)

[DrGonzoLives]

41. It wasn't "hidden"

It was a leftover part from the game that got cut from the final version. It takes hours of programming to remove such elements, so, instead, they lock it up and just leave it on. The juvenile element is these little losers and hackers who try to find this stuff to compensate for the fact that they have no lives otherwise.

[stanwyck]

87. and you believe that?

c'mon. The company is playing you. It was intentional. It's marketing.
But it's good spin. Practically Rovian.
Maybe that could be Karl's next job. He may get fired from his present one. But don't hold your breath.

[proud2BlibKansan]

109. And this marketing was aimed at what consumers?

Not adults, IMO.

[stanwyck]

136. Well, if you've read

all the posts on all the threads the past week...there seem to be quite a few adults who favor this kind of added attraction. Look, these companies make their money off their consumers. They know who they are and what turns them on. It's not a "mistake" or a glitch. It's planned. So, who is this "marketing" aimed at? Whoever buys these games. This is a business, a very successful business. They know this works. With adults.

[proud2BlibKansan]

138. I wonder if Camel cigarettes

tried to defend Joe Camel with that same logic?

[stanwyck]

145. And millions of adults

buy Camel cigarettes. And hundreds of thousands play GTA. It's not just "the kids" buying these games or cigarettes. Its the kids AND the adults who like....what kids like. And so these tactics work. Put a few porno images in for the arrested adolescents who find this fun. As an added bonus, the word will get out and more people, who ordinarily wouldn't be interested, will be. And a proportion will be kids. Fine. The more the merrier. But, it's the adults who initially access the "hidden" images. And start the buzz. They're tools for the industry.
The marketing people know exactly what they're doing. What appeals to those who get off on finding the surprise X rated images on their game also appeals to...kids.
Big surprise.

[proud2BlibKansan]

146. And that is okay with you?

Do you think kids should read Hustler too? Maybe we should ask for a porn channel for kids. After all, these adult products appeal to kids too. :sarcasm:

[stanwyck]

147. No. You're missing the point

the companies that play this little hide 'n seek game are being disingenuous. They're all shocked that kids have access, they're even shocked anyone has access to their porn...cause it "wasn't supposed to happen". And that's a lie. It was intentional. It's hype. That's what many parents are complaning about...the two-faced duplicity of the game makers. They want to titillate the adults...while intriguing the kids. Because they'll sell more. That's the bottom line.
What people are objecting to is this method of marketing. It's calculated and dishonest. And my point is, the adults should buy porn if that's what they like. And the kids should have games which don't feature porn. And the game makers should stop this juvenile "oh, my, look what happened! Those pesky porn images got into our games. We never meant for that to happen!"

[proud2BlibKansan]

149. I agree completely

[stanwyck]

151. Your significant other

is very lucky...you know just what to say.
(and you know just what to say to get me to shut up!)

[proud2BlibKansan]

155. I truly honestly

am just thinking about kids. It's my job. And we teachers are sick of violence in our media and its effect on our kids. So I get a bit worked up.

Be glad I was not posting here much a couple years ago when we were debating CCW. That was me at my most passionate.

But I will be sure to tell hubby what you said.

Peace! :hi:

[stanwyck]

156. You teachers

have my complete respect and sincere thanks. Although my husband and I have always been very involved with our two children, there have been several teachers in their lives who made significant differences. Often, adults outside the family can have a profound effect. Peace.

[DaveJ]

44. BTW, I know the version of GTA I have (2 I think)

also allows the player to pick up prostitutes to gain health. It's kind of funny how the car your in rocks back and forth faster and faster until they're done. But I'm not sure if kids should have access to it.

[pointblank]

52. Yea, you could do that back in the first PS2 version:

Grand Theft Auto 3. After heaving sex with the hooker, you could get out of the car, shoot her in the head and take back the money she just payed you. this was 3-4 years ago...Why the fuss now over having non-violent, legal consensual sex?

I'm sorry. This whole issue is ridiculous and should not be being discussed by our elected politicians who have real issues to deal with. End of story.

[MercutioATC]

54. Isn't that the version where you can beat up the prostitute

to get your money back, too?

Great lesson...

[SheepyMcSheepster]

57. lol

yeah GTA is all about great lessons.
:sarcasm:
it is an extremely violent video game. that is what it is. that is what is supposed to be. that is what people want. that is why it is made and that is why it sells.

[Initech]

45. Exactly.

The amount of porn in Grand Theft Auto is about equivalent to the amount of porn in Maxim magazine. (which for both is less than .1 %)

[DaveJ]

48. When picking up prostitutes gives you health points in GTA...

I think that constitutes more than 1% of the game, and also sends the message to kids that picking up hookers is a good thing, IMHO.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

50. back to the kids......

kids should not be playing this game.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Hence why the labeling sysem hast to be enforced

this will make it harder (not impossible) for those under 17 to get their paws on this game. Buyers have to be carded. PERIOD.

[Jack_DeLeon]

113. Bullshit...

ratings should not be enforced by law.

I dont want the govenrment telling me what I can or cannot watch, nor what I can or cannot show to my kids when I become a parent.

Its the parents responsibility to determine what is appropriate for thier children not the government.

[Initech]

143. Yeah, what I was trying to get at earlier is...

What Hillary and uber-moron Jack Thompson need to realize is the following (which I will put in bold and all caps to emphasize my point):

NOT EVERYTHING HAS TO CATER TO THE SPONGEBOB SQUAREPANTS CROWD! ADULTS NEED ENTERTAINMENT TOO!!!

[pointblank]

72. Agreed.

They should not be watching a lot of movies and television shows, IMO...however


It is every parents responsibility to see that they dont get their hans on these things if they choose. If they want their kids to be able to play/see things things, then they can buy it for them. If the government wants to enforce kids not being able to purchase it, I also have no problem.

It is just not an issue that should have much time spent on it. Just do it and pass the legislation then move onto an important issue.

It is ultimately, though, up to parents.

[InfoMinister]

83. It's about 1% of the Game

You don't even have to pick up hookers at all. If you get to your save point you get your health back. There are also heart powerups. I played through about 99% of the game without picking one up because the only reason it's there is for some extra shock value so people would talk about something you can optionally do.

[Initech]

144. Exactly!

That's the point I was trying to make, there really is no sex in GTA. It's certainly implied but they never show it. The only way you could see it was with that "Hot Coffee" mod but even then you dont see any nudity.

Which is why I compare the amount of nudity in Maxim Magazine to the amount of nudity in GTA - about 1%.

[Kraklen]

98. People make the same argument about "Catcher in the Rye"

It will trick teenage boys into looking for prostitutes.

[livinginphotographs]

71. My thoughts:

(and this is the first time I've weighed in on this issue here, and probably the last since I've seen what these threads turn into)

From what I've heard, the actual "sex scene" was left over code that someone made a mod (which is probably illegal, by the way) which unlocked it.

With that said, for a child to view the so-called pornographic scene, said child must have bought the game from a store who violated its no-selling-rated-M-games-to-minors policy, or had an adult buy it for him, and have unsupervised internet access and the technological know-how to download the mod and install it. One would think a parent would come into play somewhere in this situation...

I could care less if they re-rate the game AO; I'll still play it. What irritates me the most is how out of all the anti-social things you can do in that game, a ridiculously animated sex scene (all you see is a tit....that's the extent of it) is what will cause the rating. Hillary Clinton doesn't give two shits about your children or their well-being - this is pandering, plain and simple.

[InfoMinister]

80. Statistics On Youth Crime In America

It's interesting to note that with all of the fuss about these games the crime rate has actually gone down. I disagree with the conclusion this guy makes. I don't think the media is intentionally trying to make us thing the crime rate is up. I think that we live in a world where we get information so fast that we just see all of the violence that's in the world. Something that before CNN didn't happen. Since we're able to see the violence in a much wider scale and see it the moment it happens we have a different perception of how we see the world from the way we used to see it just a few years ago. Anyway, check out the statistics.

http://gr.bolt.com/articles/violence/violence.htm

[McCamy Taylor]

88. Porn was inserted for publicity, Hillary is boosting sales.

Let's hear it for the free market economy!

[DaveJ]

89. Yeah, AND she's doing her job at the same time!

Cheers for actually doing one's job!!! :toast:

[truebrit71]

90. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO DEAL WITH RIGHT NOW???

NOW WONDER WE CAN'T STEAL AN ELECTION.....

Senator, please, sit down, shut up, and vote for Democratic issues.

[The Flaming Red Head]

95. It's like smoking in the bathroom in High School

the more they forbid it and bitch about it then the more appealing it will be to the teenagers. I actually saw the sex thing. I told my son that I thought it was pretty pathetic and he agreed with me, but we both still giggled at it.

[Kraklen]

96. A few more points.

1. It is a waste of time. I'm posting on my coffee break. Hillary Clinton is a U.S. Senator.

2. "Screw you," is a perfectly acceptable argument in this case. This is America, Grand Theft Auto is protected speech, if you don't like it, "screw you."

3. People say the same thing about Harry Potter. The science disagrees with them too. People go after crap. People also go after "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn."

4. U.S. troops are raping Iraqi children.

[proud2BlibKansan]

112. Those troops who are raping Iraqi children -

I wonder how many were trained by the military using video games.

[Kraklen]

114. That's pretty sick.

Blaming it on video games like that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

116. The military uses video games

to train soldiers going in to combat.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

119. they also used spoons when they ate at the mess hall

i wonder if those spoons are responsible for child rape?

"video games" are a tool, they can be used in infinitely different ways.

[Kraklen]

122. The military also uses socks.

To keep the feet of their soldiers warm.

That doesn't mean the socks are the reason Iraqi children are being raped.

Jesus Christ on a crutch. Some moral virtue you've got there.

[proud2BlibKansan]

126. Poo poo it all you want

I find it troubling.

http://www.mediafamily.org/about/index.shtml

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2000/Nov/Video_Games.htm

http://blackwaterusa.com/btw2005/articles/071105video.html

http://sptimes.com/2005/02/20/Worldandnation/Did_the_Army_get_out_.shtml

http://www.gamegirladvance.com/archives/2003/07/09/gaming_and_the_military.html

http://www.freep.com/money/tech/military15e_20050715.htm

http://www.temple.edu/ispr/examples/ex01_10_29.html

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

137. You haven't read my posts then

I just want this game and others that are inappropriate for kids kept away from kids. The current system is not working. Many other DUers feel the same way. I don't understand why that desire is troubling to anyone. It's not moral high ground; it's advocating for kids.

What I find troubling are the DUers who are convinced Hillary Clinton is evil and trying to deprive them of their precious video games. I wonder if they would get as worked up about unjust wars, 45 million Amerians without health insurance or a dozen other issues that deserve our passion.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

152. The game isn't meant for kids.

It's rated Mature/17+ in the first place. Most kids can't drive to the store to get the game nor do they have the financial means to purchase it.

The fact that the game is named after an actual crime should be a warning to parents right off the bat. If they can't see that, then they can check the rating on the box. And if they can't see that, then they shouldn't be parents in the first place.

[Jack_DeLeon]

115. nice argument "video game players = rapists"

next time I'm arrest for raping some child I'll make sure to use that defense.

Lovely slander of video game players btw.

[Kraklen]

123. Ironic isn't it?

The people going on about morals have none of their own.

[proud2BlibKansan]

128. I am not slandering video game players

Just stating a fact. The military uses video games for training. As a life long pacifist, that is a bit disconcerting to me.

[Kraklen]

130. Bullshit.

You're directly implying that video games led U.S. troops to rape Iraqi children.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jack_DeLeon]

133. Stop terrorism ban Microsoft flight simulator...

its for the children.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

117. wait................

are you blaming child rape on video games?

[proud2BlibKansan]

131. No of course not

but I think we all need to wonder about the military training these soldiers receive and what would cause them to rape children.

[Jack_DeLeon]

134. The same training that cause civillians to rape children...

sometimes people are just plain fucked in the head.

[proud2BlibKansan]

141. True

Which leads me to wonder how well the military screens the recruits they so eagerly go after.

[Jack_DeLeon]

108. You want to know what is really fucked up about the sex in San Andreas...

The Black guy has no penis, its not rendered or shown or anything, it must be racist, where is the outrage on that.

Seriously though, since there is no penis there is no penetration, no penetration = no sex. So I have no fucking clue how people think this is porn.

If it were a movie it would be R rated which is what the M rating for games is.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

120. lol, my sentiments exactly

"I have no fucking clue how people think this is porn"

[A-Schwarzenegger]

125. It is dangerous to have 2 thoughts in yer head at the same time.

"It is possible to think that the Grand Theft Auto games are troubling and probably have some negative consequences on society while also being concerned about protecting the first amendment."

Yer head might explode.

[TimeChaser]

129. How many R-rated movies have sex in them?

Or show naked boobs (Hells, Titantic showed boobs and sex, and that was PG-13). GTA had clothed, animated sex, it was rated M, which is about the same thing as an R rating.

Really, what are they freaking out over? Should all R movies that show sex be rated NC17?

[Dr Fate]

148. I thought we wanted Libertarians to vote for us. n/t

n/t

[immoderate]

150. It's all bullshit.

I cannot believe that nature has allowed a species to evolve such that exposure to its reproductive process will harm it. That doesn't make sense.

I saw pornography as a child. All my friends saw pornography as children. I never met anyone who claimed they had not seen pornography as a child until I visited Utah. And they have their shit together?

--IMM

[Endangered Specie]

154. First off, Id like to say I enjoy playing GTA very much...

Id recommend everyone see the so called 'sex scene' for themselves to see if it REALLY consitutes hardore XXX porn. (theres a vid clip cirulating on the net) In reality, Ive seen worse in PG-13 and R movies. (which is the equivelante of a Teen and Mature rating respectively). Taking pot shots at video games is a tried and true tactic of politicians trying to look good (up there with praising God, being surrounded by children in photo ops, etc...)

And, to those who say that playing violent games means I cant be liberal, well, you have my personal invitation to stick it.