Let those on the Left who have done more toss the first stones at Jane!

[David Zephyr]

I am amused at the self-righteous and hypocritical, yet self-serving, attacks by some here at the DemocraticUnderground directed toward Jane Fonda.

Comments like "Jane Fonda destroyed the Democratic Party" and accusations that the news of her new campaign against the War in Iraq is "attention craving" come from people who cowardly hide behind internet names as they post.

Fonda, one of the world's most recognizable celebrities chose to not make movies, not make public appearances for a very, very long time. Hardly "attention craving" for an international personality, huh?

Her private, low key donation of $12.5 Million to Harvard to establish the Harvard Center on Gender and Education was more typical of how she has worked for progressive causes for nearly two decades.

Further, few people know that it was Jane Fonda who came to the aid of Vice President Al Gore in 2000 with a quiet, substantial donation when we Democrats were fighting for our lives down in Florida as Bush's legal team worked the courts to steal that election. Hey, all of you Liberal Pharisees, check out who helped Gore then and, more importantly, who did not and then throw all the stones and rocks at Fonda that you need to.

There is just so much more that I could list here, but I won't. Fonda has privately done far more for social/economic/environmental progress around the globe helping fight AIDS, childhood starvation and disease, institutional misogyny in third world countries than most Americans ever will. And she did it quietly.

But hey. Get out the stones everyone and toss away, since you all have done so much to help the causes of social/economic/environmental justice in the world.

Shame!

[samdogmom]

1. I love Jane Fonda. I would never cast a stone. She's a hero!

Are you sure it's not the other side casting the stones?

[movonne]

8. Ditto !!!

[JackRiddler]

99. The main problem with Jane Fonda

The problem is not that she visited a small country while it was subjected to a genocidal, undeclared and unconstitutional war by the U.S. military, risking herself to make a difference.

The only problem is that she finally betrayed and apologized for her heroic and patriotic gesture, after 40 years of verbal abuse from the uninformed compatriots who defame her as a traitor.

Whatever the rest of her career, when she went to Hanoi she did the right thing and I honor that.

[Sparkman]

118. EXACTLY!

[Deep13]

2. I would appreciate knowing how you know this to be true.

[eleny]

5. You might try Googling

For instance, here are my results for <Jane Fonda 12.5 Million to Harvard>

http://www.google.com/search?q=Jane+Fonda+12.5+Million+to+Harvard&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

[Sparkman]

119. Jane was like ALL PEACENICS, anti war first. Speak Truth to Power, friend

[bryant69]

3. She may have done much good since her early days

When she was in the limelight. It sounds like she has, so good on her.

But given what she did when she was in the limelight, she should now stay out of it. She's a lightning rod for trouble.

I'm surprised she doesn't realize this - once she starts advocating publically as she is planning, she becomes the story. It gives Republicans a chance to bring up Hanoi Jane in a relevant context, and use it to tar Liberals as a whole.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[eleny]

7. Karl Rove trumps "Hanoi" Jane any day

[K8-EEE]

23. Scared Rabbit Dems

I can't stand the scared rabbit dems. HELLO! They will vilify ANYBODY AND EVERYBODY WHO STANDS UP TO THEM! Doesn't matter at all what they have or haven't done. Kerry, Clarke, Joe Wilson, Valerie Plame, whoEVER.

She posed for a stupid picture and she apologized, she has been right about so many things, why should she be "discarded" because of it?

The RWers have absolutely no credibility anymore. I don't care WHAT they think of Jane Fonda, but to have DUers thinking she should go into hiding over his 40 year old incident is ridiculous.

What is so weird is that when Jane's career was goind great guns in the 70's and 80's, the nation WAS forgiving, it did all seem like water under the bridge. This is how shrill, how fascist this country had become. The Archie Bunkers are in charge, you gonna bow to them? I'M NOT!

[bryant69]

25. Because the disadvantages outnumber the advantages

In my opinion.

You may have a different opinion - but I would not ascribe my calculation to cowardness (anymore than I should ascribe your calculation to bravado).

[K8-EEE]

36. OK, Well They Have Convicted Criminals Ollie North G. Gordon Liddy Etc

Another one-sided standard of "perfection" that they are immune to, let's subscribe to it or what will they think!

[bryant69]

43. It kind of sounds like your accusing me of having higher standards

than Conservatoids?

If so, thank you for the compliment.

[kymar57]

80. Tar Liberals??

Maybe it's time we stopped be afraid of being "liberal" and started standing our ground.
:grr: :grr: :grr:

[ConfuZed]

4. I'm applaud Jane and I chalenge...

The freeperground'er lurking this forum to get off their fat butts and do what she is going to do.

[Dhalgren]

6. I have always liked and supported Ms Fonda.

Even when she was an exercise guru - she looked (and looks) good. When she went to Hanoi in 1970 (I think) I thought she was a true heroine - still do...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. I'll worry about what the Republicanites think of Jane Fonda,

Michael Moore, and Bill Moyers the minute THEY start worrying about what Democrats think of Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, and Sean Hannity.

Sometimes I feel like half of you are still stuck in that adolescent mentality of "Ooh, what will the cool kids think of me?"

[kymar57]

81. A great big AMEN to that Lydia n/t

[K8-EEE]

84. ANOTHER AMEN LYDIA!

She's a lovely person who is passionate about peace and social justice and who made a mistake decades ago, 6 months before the war ended, Jesus it was already OVER and it was just getting people to ADMIT it was over.

This war needs that kind of scrutiny. If not Jane, then WHO?

[longship]

10. Jane's cool. Gotta love her.

I think we need more like her.

Another advantage is that she pisses off the wingnuts. Just like Hillary.

I think we need to find all the people who piss off the wingnuts and put them front and center. We get all of them. Especially the women who seem to get the wingnuts' shorts in a very big bunch.

It's even better if they all have a Hollywood connection, which also pisses off the wingnuts. People like Streisand, Sarandon, Fonda, the ??? Girls (sorry, I'm not at all into pop culture), etc.

We'd have all the wingnuts foaming at the mouth. It'd be beautiful seeing those loonies screaming their heads off.

Rabies shots anybody?

[mandyky]

11. Bill Clinton's Monica-gate did more to hurt the party than JF

Sure, Nam vets are still ticked at her, but I think most people realized she was used by the N. Vietnamese.

[Uncle Joe]

34. I have to agree with this point.

To begin with I do not believe that Clinton should have been impeached and I also believe the Republicans had engaged in a witch hunt to bring him down even at the cost of our own national security. When the Clinton administration tried to take Osama out with cruise missles after the bombing of our African embassies, the loyal opposition Republican Congress firmly stood behind the President with a dagger and said it was all just about Monica, I heard those words in my head for days after 9/11.
Having said that, the Lewinsky scandal had the net result of demeaning and cheapening the office of the Presidency making an incompetent look more qualified for a job that had become a laughing stock. Next to his own family and Monica, Clinton hurt Al Gore more than any other individual that I can think of, and by extension the American People who were denied the leadership of one of our greatest statesman and instead had to suffer the corrupt bastard in power now.

[Peace Patriot]

12. Hear, hear, David Zephyr! And for those who think that Jane Fonda

was wrong to go to Hanoi, check out the film "Hearts and Minds" (you can get it from Netflix) and educate yourself a bit about Vietnam. Most Americans, if they had been Vietnamese, and had been fighting off Chinese invasions for 5,000 years, and the French for 100 years, and had seen what the Vietnamese saw of US behavior in their country, would have joined the so-called "communists" in fighting off yet another invasion and defending their DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED PRESIDENT OF VIETNAM HO CHI MINH (in a UN monitored election!).

[Deep13]

13. For what it's worth.

I don't really care about Harvard. It's a rich school for rich people. She was one of many who contributed to the recount fund. I won't minimize that as it was important and generous.

Here's the problem. During Vietnam she went to SE Asia and did some pretty reprehensible things. The two best known examples are sitting in an anti-aircraft gun while it shot at US aircraft. Also, she revealed to guards an effort of Hanoi Hilton prisoners to get information back to the US. She gave aid and comfort to the enemy and has never apologized for it, not that any could ever be sufficient.

I would rather she kept her money and we heard no more of her.

[Just Me]

16. That's simply untrue. Why would you utter such lies?

Why? I'm shocked!!! :wow:

[VelmaD]

19. try checking snopes next time...

before you spout off.
http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

[Peace Patriot]

20. The Vietnamese were not "the enemy" neither north nor south. The

"enemy" was war profiteers. We had ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to be in that country. NONE! We slaughtered ONE MILLION VIETNAMESE. ONE MILLION PEOPLE! We called them "gooks"! We napalmed villages and little children. We destroyed the countryside. And WE--our country, our leaders--slaughtered 55,000 US soldiers FOR NOTHING. WHEN are we going to stop thinking in these jingoistic terms dictated by corporate war profiteers about who the "enemy" is?

As for annoying the likes of Karl Rove and Russ Limbaugh, I agree with the upper thread: FIGHT BACK! ANNOY THEM! PEACE NOW!

[VOX]

21. It's not worth much. Nearly everything in your post is totally **FALSE**.

While Jane Fonda did have the regrettable anti-aircraft gun photo-op, it was NOT firing, she NEVER revealed anything to any guards, and she HAS APOLOGIZED (repeatedly) for her youthful bad judgement.

If you really believe your posted statements, you should google around (starting with snopes.com) and educated yourself, because you're repeating every right-wing falsehood about Jane Fonda, word for word.

[Deep13]

22. Just checked snopes.

http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

One chain email about the hanoi hilton was discredited. Nevertheless, there is evidence that she did that and many witnesses still remaining.

The rest of the details in the snopes article are worse than I thought.

Apparently, she did apologize.

The only things I can find elsewhere on google involve repetition of the aforementioned discredited chain letter.

[K8-EEE]

24. omg, That is Freeper BS!! I Can't Believe You're So Gullible.

OMG, I'm embarassed for you!! It's Swift Boat Liar level BS, show me the proof of it.

[Deep13]

33. Sorry, but it isn't. Not this time.

Apart from the snopes article, I will need a little time to drum-up evidence in electronic form that can be posted here.

Some liberals fail to realize that not all liberals are "flower children" so to speak. Going to a war zone to undermine US troops is unforgiveable. Protests are one thing, but some self-important wealthy people who know nothing of the world can do some pretty thoughtless things at times.

You are not going to make many friends outside of this discussion forum with this kind of talk.

[Just Me]

47. Your accusations are persecutory and with NO basis in fact.

Incredible that you insist upon repeating them.

Jane Fonda NEVER, EVER had ANY malicious intent against the troops. Quite the contrary, she passionately advocated against a government that was exploiting our troops.

Amazingly, you repeat, word for word, every false allegation that the right-wing corporacrat regime did during the Vietnam era and now renews during the Iraq era.

I urge you to locate a more honest rendition of reality, both then and now, rather than repeat brainwashing propaganda,...that is, IF a more honest rendition means anything to you. Otherwise, nevermind.

[MissB]

68. Yeah, it is.

Good luck on drumming up some evidence to support your assertion.

[K8-EEE]

83. Yeah Can't Wait To See The EVIDENCE!

There's tons of it (at NewsMax and anncoulter.com for instance.)

[On the Road]

69. Personally, I Think It's Unforgivable

to massacre hundreds of thousands of people to prevent them from electing their own government. Vietnam was Iraq mulitplied a hundredfold.

Posing with North Vietnamese was poor PR. What America did in Vietnam was a crime against humanity.

[Sparkman]

120. Soldiers who oppose illegal orders are heroes, friend, not traitors!

AND their in country, interferring with the "mission"!

[msmcghee]

38. I can't find words to reply to this . .

. . that would not get me reprimanded by the moderators.

Your statements are either wrong or repeated RW lies. They show your level of comprehension of world events and history better than I could possibly explain any better.

[Horse with no Name]

40. Actually, she has apologized for it

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7349099/
Problem is, the same assholes that will forgive dumbya for his youthful passion of drinking and drugging and not reporting for duty and NEVER apologizing for it...are the first ones to continue to castigate Jane Fonda for her youthful passion of activism when she HAS apologized.

Shame on them and shame on YOU for perpetuating this.

>>>>>snip
NEW YORK - Jane Fonda says her 1972 visit to a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun site, an incident that brought her the nickname “Hanoi Jane,” was a “betrayal” of American forces and of the “country that gave me privilege.”

“The image of Jane Fonda, ‘Barbarella,’ Henry Fonda’s daughter ... sitting on an enemy aircraft gun was a betrayal ... the largest lapse of judgment that I can even imagine,” Fonda told Lesley Stahl in a “60 Minutes” interview that will air Sunday night.

[Deep13]

42. some more info

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Fonda#Opposition_to_the_Vietnam_War

[Just Me]

48. Maybe, you swallowed the blue pill.

Repeating the lies of the corporacratic matrix reveals nothing about that matrix.

[RetroLounge]

91. Here's the problem

You are spreading false information.

Either knowingly, or thru ignorance of facts.

Why?

RL

[Sparkman]

115. Your buying into a smear camp, funded by BIGGER MONEY than Harvard

Please know this, without the celebs opposing the Vietnam Invasion, thousands or TENS OF THOUSANDS of anti war activists and POT heads (me)would have suffered long prison terms, instead of just job descrimination and salary restriction or advancement prejudice. Of course, now you can protest the Iraq slaughter, and "only" get documented by your national guard (FASCIST methodology), for later processing and job descrimination.

[Just Me]

14. Jane Fonda is a gracious, giving human being. Why would anyone,...

,...diminish her contributions? Hmmmmmm.

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. She speaks the truth about Iraq.

That's all I need to know. I don't give a rats ass about what she did 35 years ago. The Vietnam war was WRONG and so is the invasion of Iraq. PERIOD. We need her voice and I welcome it.

No stones from this direction!

[kymar57]

85. Another Amen n/t

[KurtNYC]

17. No matter how involved and committed she is

she can't help the national debate on this issue.

Imagine if Oprah had sat on that bus years ago instead of Rosa Parks. The stories would be all about Oprah and NOT about embedded racism and segregation. There is a best person for each cause and issue and Jane is not it.

Consider which of the following would have the most impact and why:

1) Jane Fonda drives a bus around the country garnering tons of critical attention from the celebrity-obsessed RW media.

2) 12 disabled Iraq War vets chain themselves to the gates of the Whitehouse and demand the restoration of veterans benefits and an end to the occupation

[Misunderestimator]

31. So, who is the best person for the job, and WHERE are they?

Where are those 12 Disabled Iraq War vets... why hasn't anyone chained themselves to the gates of the Whitehouse?

I'll take action over theory any day.

[Maru Kitteh]

112. We don't have to insist on the BEST person for the job but

Jane Fonda is probably the WORST person for the job. If she is the generous and intelligent person so many believe her to be she will come to see that and find a better way to channel her considerable resources to the cause.

[mitchtv]

73. Maybe if she went Missing???

[noiretextatique]

90. your oprah analogy is quite faulty, btw

if it hadn't been for rosa parks (and the civil rights movement), oprah would be just another black woman at the back of the bus.

[radar]

18. Yeah, you said it...

It's been a couple years and thousands of deaths since the Iraq mis-adventure began, waiting for some "acceptable" anti-war figure-head to step forward and scream enough's enough. Follow me, gather 'round, and all that leadership stuff that successful movements have had.

2am and the bar is closing....

[Misunderestimator]

26. I agree! Great post!

:thumbsup:

I read a thread yesterday on this subject that disappointed the hell out of me. Didn't even have the heart to join in (fortunately, others apparently have the patience.)

Thanks for posting this! Jane Fonda rocks, and I'm proud of her for doing what's right in her heart despite such vile criticism and ingratitude for all she's done.

[pecwae]

27. "Jane Fonda destroyed the Democratic Party"

is as inane as "The Beatles and Elvis destroyed American morals." I've heard both.

[David Zephyr]

45. Welcome to the DU, pecwae.

:hi:

[mitchtv]

75. I met Jane at a rally in Glide memorial

"Gay solidarity with Chilean resistance" I welcome all patriots who fight against Bush's war

[RetroLounge]

92. Usually from the same people too

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

RL

[Edgewater_Joe]

28. Remember What Randi Rhodes Told Ralph Nader?

"We can't afford you."

That's my attitude towards Jane Fonda: it's great she wants to protest, it's great she wants to lend support -- but we can't afford her. She will be SUCH a distraction, SUCH a target for the Repunks, SUCH a lightning rod, that she can single-handedly devalue whatever protests will come about. ESPECIALLY given that the Repunks are currently reeling in the face of Rovegate. She's as tailor-made a distraction and device for demonization that can be created.

With all due respect, she should sit this out. We can't afford her.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

70. Right, and the Republicans are SO worried that their

more flamboyant advocates will alienate the public. :sarcasm:

If the Republicans believed that controversial advocates hurt their cause, they would have chained Ann Coulter in a cave some where.

[Edgewater_Joe]

79. We Aren't Republicans

You know that and I know that, and I stick by my opinion: Jane Fonda does us more harm than good at this point.

[U4ikLefty]

94. No, Republicians are winning & running all 3 branches of gov't

You know that and I know that: Jane Fonda is one more voice agaist the war...one more voice means one more chance to hear the truth.

[Armstead]

29. Let her do what she wants, for Godsake

She is a private citizen, and has every right to express her opinion in any way she chooses.

The ridiculing of her is ridiculous.

[DURHAM D]

30. Born-again Christian. Don't forget that she is a born-again.

Southern Baptist I think - although she does not talk about it very much. If she needs to she will, however. Won't that piss off the Repugs.

[Eloriel]

32. There have been some very strange posts here at DU lately

I think there are people here mining for wedge material, frankly.

Please check your PM, David.

[KoKo]

101. "They always walk among us...." Everpresent............n/t

[Ksec]

35. Fonda is a hero

F the commie reicht.

If it were up to them freedom would be a thing of the past.

They hate Freedom and wanna crucify anyone who dissents.

[H2O Man]

37. I think that

there is a simple solution to the Jane issue. If people don't like her, don't pay attention to her. There are literally thousands of other things to focus on with the anti-war movement.

Others who find her message meaningful should pay attention to her, and be inspired to take further actions, as outlined by the Bill of Rights, to end US-involvement in the war.

Each side, no matter how strongly they feel, should respect that those on the other side of this issue have the right to their beliefs.

And both sides should recognize that, in the larger sense, Jane Fonda is not an important part of the real issues. We do not have the luxury of wasting time and energy on a non-issue.

[K8-EEE]

54. Yeah, I Suppose We Should Admire Paris Hilton

....and her "non-controversial" stance on the war. Same as the Bush twins. Really it is time for Jane and EVERYONE to take a stand and end this insanity.

[H2O Man]

106. Oh please.

Don't be silly.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. I admired her then, still admire her. A true hero for progressives.

And, to hell the PC crappola being spewed by the timid.

[TriMetFan]

41. Jane Fonda is Jane Fonda. I like her and sure she made a

mistake when she was young. It was not like she was the right hand person (Rove) of the Untied State President and being a Trader.

[stillcool]

44. ..sometimes this board is very representative....

of the Dems in congress. Why do they even bother...or better yet, why do I? If someone talks straight, cares, trys to effect change, they will be the first at bat to bring them down. Not examples of human behavior for me to emulate.

[Booster]

46. Thanks, David, for saying what needed to be said. Jane Fonda

has done more for the oppressed in the world than most anyone and, like you said, did it quietly. I have always been a fan of Jane's and had the privilege of meeting her briefly at my old job. She is a TRUE compassionate and has shown that over the years. Ok, she made a stupid mistake for which she has apologized. I was more than impressed with this big movie star when she offered a ride to someone and then drove off in her Ford Fiesta. Everyone needs to lighten up on Jane - she's paid her dues many, many times over.

[ElectroPrincess]

49. Jane Fonda is FAR from a role model, PAST or PRESENT

Wow, people here are way way TOO young (<50) to realize that the *pure hatred* for what Jane Fonda did in 1972 is ever-present.

Yes, my politics are left of center but she's no damned role model for the democratic party and I hold NO respect for her person.

For those of you who are younger than 45 years old and, perhaps NOT from a working or middle class family, you may NOT imagine the *intense hatred* that perseveres over the actions of Jane Fonda when traveling over to Vietnam. These resentments have NOT faded in the hearts and minds of many Vietnam Vets and their families.

My older brother and his combat veteran buddies (former 101st Airborne Corps Sgt) literally seethes with disgust at the mere mention of the name "Jane Fonda." And NO! He is far from unusual with such a reaction among many Vietnam Combat Veterans subjected to the draft.

Please consider not supporting this arrogant, spoiled, attention craven fading celebrity to parade herself for either a Democratic nor Anti-Iraqi Occupation cause?

The only thing that saved Jane Fonda after her trip to Vietnam, both figuratively and (very real hate for her still in many combat vet circles) perhaps physically, is that she WAS A KID back during those times.

I did NOT support the Vietnam War, but I continue to love and support my older brother and deeply respect the other combat veterans that fought beside him.

Therefore, it is with sincerity to help put an end to the USA present "adventures" that I state with 100% confidence = JANE FONDA will be the worst thing to happen to both the Democratic Party and the Anti-War movement.

As a human being, I don't feel the intense resentment that many combat vets STILL hold out for her. However, Jane Fonda, seriously needs to "catch a clue" that many liberals in their late 40s and beyond are *DISGUSTED* with this present bout of Jane's egocentric bullshit in attention seeking behavior.

IMO, her presence disgraces the good character of most of us who are both openly and genuinely working for JUSTICE.

Go Away Jane! Don't go away mad, sad or lonely ... but for all the true good that is NOW possible, consider for ONCE in your selfish and spoiled life actually serving the greater good by bowing out?

... Just Please Ms. Jane Fonda = fade from the political spotlight and GO YOUR OWN SPECIAL WAY!

[K8-EEE]

53. The Hatred Is Misplaced -- Based On Ignorance

Oh please, making HER the villain of the Vietnam war is just pathetic.

Was then, is now.

My Air Force vet dad who is 75 says: GO JANE!

[Just Me]

57. Wow. Okay, with that one,...I am outta' here.

As an advocate for tolerance and unification and especially justice, your post, ElectroPrincess, forces me off this thread.

I don't have the time or energy for such division. :hi:

[ElectroPrincess]

63. Well, continue to support Jane Fonda, you'll get a gut level dose of

pure HATE for her person. No joke, it is pervasive. Jane is not doing herself any favors stepping out into the spotlight.

Please consider: Just like the rabid right wing believed the lies of Rove's whisper campaign, John McCain will NOT be forgiven.

Extrapolate to a "Jane Fonda" conversing with the enemy - the right wing will NOT EVER stop hating her.

Jane Fonda can give money, but for heaven's sake, please realize that many Americans STILL DO consider her actions bordering on "treason."

And no, albeit I personally forgive her, no matter how many mea culpas or "born again" proclamations Jane spews forth for attention, she will not ever be fully forgiven.

Welcome to the real world Ms. "fading movie star" - you are NOT forgiven by millions of American People. Kindly go away?

[Ron Green]

100. The people who refuse to forgive her are closed-minded.

So should we let closed-minded people control the debate?

I'm a disabled US Army combat vet, and I have only admiration for Jane Fonda. She told the same truth that many of us who served then (I was in '66 -'69) already knew: Johnson and McNamara were wrong, and we were all paying the price.

The people who can't let go of their hatred are hopelessly bitter. To hell with them, if they won't get over it.

[Misunderestimator]

61. My god! You make me want to send her money.

[mitchtv]

76. what have you done for Peace lately?

[RetroLounge]

93. Yes, Jane, Sit down and Shut up

Sounds like the bushies talking to Dems...

RL

[K8-EEE]

50. Show Me Something Jane Did That Is Worse Than BushCo Crimes.

How can anybody accomplish as much treason, death, destruction and torture as BushCO has managed to, and then people worry about JANE FONDA??

It boggles the mind.

[donheld]

51. Jane is still my hero

:yourock:

[meganmonkey]

52. I agree 99.9% with your post

Which is as close as I get to 100% on just about anything ;)

:kick:

[LincolnMcGrath]

55. Jane was a HERO then, and still is today.

We butchered OVER 3 MILLION people in that war, and lost 56000 of our own, while maiming Hundreds of Thousands of US troops at the same time.

[WilliamPitt]

56. I've done a bit

so I'll say this: She is not a good spokesperson for our cause. She creates a visceral reaction of dislike among the millions of people we have to win over if we are going to get out of that war.

[Just Me]

62. However, we would be awful to reject her contribution and participation.

I also ask, Will, that you acknowledge the fact that, the "visceral reaction" was created and is still being created by the same corporacratic faction which exploits our soldiers. Jane Fonda did not create the "visceral reaction" among a portion of our people,...the manipulative, power-mongering, heartless, profiteering bastards created that MISPERCEPTION!!!

Those who advocate throwing her away or pushing her contributions aside are simply,...awful.

Anyway, I'm hiding this thread now.

[WilliamPitt]

64. However it happened

I am hesitant to have her out front on this cause. However it happened, there are millions out there who see Jane Fonda advocate against a war and assume automatically that she must be wrong.

The issue is too important for me to feel bad about her, or to worry about her feelings or contributions. It's too important for me to feel bad about not wanting her to be a part of this. If that makes me awful, then so be it.

Having Fonda involves changes the subject from Iraq/Lies/Bush to Fonda and Vietnam. That is intolerable.

[Dragonfly]

87. Maybe those "millions out there" who assume

automatically that she will be wrong about her present-day views on Iraq, et al, will become pleasantly enlightened when they see how much of the American culture responds favorably to the elemental truth coming from the impending "bus tour's" unique collaborative effort.

I'd like to see what this intriguing endeavor looks like before any sort of analysis takes place.

As well, I don't think that "thin-skinnedness" is one of her personality traits anymore. An instructive current snapshot of what she has come to be about as "70" looms can be found in her recently released autobiography: "My Life So Far."

I hope that Veterans for Peace folks along the way will stand with her.

[RetroLounge]

97. "I am hesitant to have her out front on this cause"

Well, we don't really have a say in it, do we. Last I checked, Jane Fonda was not owned by DU or anyone else.

So who IS out front? Dean? Kerry? Lieberman? Gore?

Anyone out front will get smeared, and you know it.

RL

[H2O Man]

116. Valid point.

Objective and on target.

[K8-EEE]

82. Do You Think That Dolly Parton Would Make 9 to 5 Now?

NOW it would be a big huge deal, a big controversy, it's totally MADE UP. I remember when Jane was MAINSTREAM and all this was water under the bridge. A media darling and on the cover of every women's magazine.

Please as if everyone speaking on THEIR behalf is pure as the driven snow.

I can't believe there are progressives seeing the world through BushCo manufactured lenses and adjusting everything according to that distraction!

[Disturbed]

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

I believe that Ms. Fonda would do more good if she did not spotlight herself and this issue. Sure, she has every right to speak out but I wish she would not in this case. It will only bring backlash. Damn! I hate that I am not a cheerleader for her but in this case I just cannot be so.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

89. So did John Kerry when he was still anti-war in the '70s.

And, she's a helluva lot better spokesperson than John Kerry, Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Joe Lieberman, who voted for and still support the war.

[KoKo]

102. You are saying basically she's a "lightening rod."

And we don't need folks like that...:shrug: Is that it, is that what you are saying?

[KoKo]

104. We should stone her....she's hurt our cause so bad...she hurt Kerry who

threw some "medals" over a fence when he was working to expose Vietnam atrocities." So if we stone Fonda lets just go after ALL THOSE "Hippy Types" who thought Vietnam was wrong.

Iraq can be the NEW CAUSE while we trash those who tried to stop the carnage long ago...and label them as Hollywood while we raised John Kerry to be our DEMOCRATIC LEADER!

OMG! The hypocracy just stings and smarts and drives some of our brains into frenzy. And that those we thought we could trust turn into "apologists" reminds me of what went on in WWII...It never ends it just repeats....Lather, Rinse, Repeat...as you've been so fond of saying...:-)'s to you in your DLC Web of find gauze to stop the bleeding when the SORE NEVER HEALS!!!....where you keep repeating what you have over and over and over and as we LOSE, LOSE, LOSE ...the blame get's ever thicker on those who are for CHANGE, PRINCIPLE and RETRIBUTION!!!!!

[Skip Intro]

108. I agree.

I had no idea she had done and is doing so much, and a huge thank you to Jane, but you are right - she's not a good spokesperson for the left for precisely the reason you state. And we do need those millions to get us out of that war, and to bring to justice the treasonous crowd who forced it on the world.

That's just the reality of the situation.

[bpilgrim]

109. is that how you feel about hilliary, too?

that's how i feel about her and think they both would probably do more good in the trenches not in the limelight.

:hi:

peace

[WilliamPitt]

111. Pretty much

I dread a Hillary run in '08.

Ted Kennedy, too.

It is what it is.

[DanCa]

58. I wish people will leave Mrs Fonda alone

I want to start by saying that I am against both the Viet Nam War and Iraq. I also stand by Jane Fonda's right as an american citezen to protest the war any way she see's fit. However I think it was bad taste to pose on that boat at the time of the war, but since she apologized and am I am a christian it's over imo. I wish Mrs Fonda well if my uncle and my old man both viet nam veterans can get over it why can't people who never served can?

[ElectroPrincess]

72. Consider this ...

You just received word that your older brother was critically wounded in Vietnam. That your family was holding out, day to day, for word of his death or recovery from shrapnel wounds.

.... Meanwhile in the National News this week = Jane fonda visits North Vietnam and poses with enemy forces.

Come to think about it, perhaps I am quite "ok" (not cold hearted) for forgiving her trip given my brother's near death experience?

What do you think the family members of Vietnam Vets who DIED from enemy fire BELIEVE about Jane Fonda?

Yes, it may be dysfunctional and cruel, but I do understand why many Veterans and Family Members will not ever fully forgive her.

I'm not condoning the continued resentments, just trying to explain that they are very real.

[DanCa]

86. Okay thank you.

I was just a kid at the time and since I have no way of living thru it from an adult perspective I can only guess as to what was going on then. While I firmly stand by any individuals right to protest lawfuly. I think possesing with the enemy is a cruel and stupid thing to do. I thought I explained that in my initial post. I must not have typed that clearly and I appologise for that. Sometimes I think faster than I can type.

Could you please give your bro a hug and thank him for his service to his country for me. Veterans are our true heroes and we dont do enough for them.

Thank you for giving me a rational explanation of the feeling of resentment. It's nice having someone who disagrees with you civily rather than flaming hope were cool :D

[ElectroPrincess]

110. We're definitely cool DanCa ...

Few people of any age are willing to admit that someone's perspectives are shaped differently by experience.

Unfortunately, very few of us, most especially myself are blessed to have reached any level of what can be termed "self-actualization."

I make no apologies for my right wing libertarian family members for I wish they thought and felt differently. However, I understand how their basic experiences and temperaments molded into what they are now.

No, it saddens me every time my mom mocks John McCain as "crazy." However, we should NOT disown (and discount the opinions of) people on the basis of not reaching the ideal level of logic and critical thinking skills.

The foregoing is exactly why people of less education consider some of us arrogant elitists.

If nothing else, I hope that we can at least *agree* that it's best to put someone forward that is NOT such a lightening rod for controversy and hate?

Finally, I must admit that although I begrudgingly forgive Jane Fonda for being young, foolish and borderline treasonous, IF my brother would have died in Vietnam, I would too despise her as much as the koolaid drinking RWers. I'm ashamed to admit this but won't deny that would be my mindset.

Thanks again DanCa for you and I can listen to each other to the point where we can at least "CONSIDER" how someone with a different socio-economic, political family background may view a celebrity such as Jane Fonda. :thumbsup:

[RetroLounge]

98. Yeah, lets Blame Jane Fonda for the war...

dysfunctional and cruel and not based in reality.

Blame Nixon? Sure...

RL

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

59. Thank you David! I have always admired Jane and the words

that I read on this board yesterday, calling her a traitor, made me feel as if I was in enemy territory. She knows an illegal, immoral war when she sees one, and it isn't the critics of those wars that are the traitors.

As to vets. Does the film Coming Home ring a bell???? Hello????!!!!!

[blm]

60. THANKYOU David. I was ignoring those threads, but, since you spoke up....

It really strikes me as no different than all those self-proclaimed leftist Democrats who attack Kerry day in and day out, but, who can't name one other lawmaker who has effected this nation's governance more positively in the last 35 years.

And the loudest mouths' own records of service wouldn't add up to 1% of Kerry's input.

I just rolled my eyes when they started on Fonda, but you spoke up....salute to you.

She's not perfect, and she's not the perfect spokeperson, few are, but she is SINCERE and strives hard for justice where she sees none.

[roguevalley]

65. It interests me how in this "Christian Nation" how unforgiving people

are. She has apologized fully, completely, with more guts than most people. Who else has apologized for such a thing? Anyone? Yet, too many are unwilling to accept her sincere apology. So much for living one's values and beliefs.

[ArkDem]

66. But Fonda ain't got a motor in the back of her Honda.....

[LincolnMcGrath]

67. ROTF

[deutsey]

71. I generally like Fonda. However, I think associating her with our

current cause is detrimental to the cause; it diverts attention away from the issues facing us now and plops it right down on the raw nerve still exposed from the 1960s.

Regardless of what you think of Kerry, his campaign inadvertantly did the same thing; look how much time and energy was wasted fending off the "issue" of whether he earned his Purple Hearts etc.

[mitchtv]

78. time for everyone I mean Everyone

to bring this war machine to a halt. Welcome aboard Jane. Don't like it? Do something better.

[deutsey]

113. No, I don't like it. And I've been fighting this war machine for a few

years now. Short of armed rebellion, I don't know what else I can do.

You know, ultimately Jane Fonda is free to do whatever the fuck she wants to (let's hope she won't go sit in a sucide bomber's car, though), and she certainly isn't going to be dissuaded by what I write here or encouraged by what you write, for that matter.

As a seasoned anti-war activist who has been fighting not only the war machine but the propaganda spewed by its entertainment arm (the corporate media), I just don't want the hassle of having these drooling bushbots around me having one more red herring to throw at me, when there are more relevant issues to work on.

:hi:

[Vinnie From Indy]

74. She "Rocked" in Barbarella!!!!

The whole "cast the first stone" business is kind of a funny, "quaint" notion in this day and age of BushCoWorld.

[Swamp Rat]

77. Geaux Jane! ... Attack attrack attack!!!

We need every powerful voice, no matter what be the historical distractions, to speak out against Bushler and his thugs!!!

Attack attrack attack!!!


:kick:

[KoKo]

88. Would many of these same people attacking Fonda now attack John Kerry?

We just went through an election where Kerry's position on the Vietnam war was villified successfully. Yet, many of the same people attacking Fonda were probably horrified at the Swift Boat Liar's success. You can't have it both ways. Maybe some of these people posting crap about Fonda supported someone else...like maybe Lieberman?

I can't believe I saw a long thread on DU attacking Fonda. Will Marshall's (DLC)'s talking points seem to be taking root.

[LaurenG]

95. No stones from me either

I'm trying not to do that anymore. They always come back to get you.:grouphug:

[noiretextatique]

96. right on, David!!!!

i get so sick of the hand-wringing whiners who have the GALL to condemn people with the courage and conviction to confront the neoconartists...especially considering how OUTNUMBERED WE ARE, given the media's duplicity re: anything and everything bush, inc does.
for those who are too PURE to embrace the real people under the democratic umbrella, there is a big tent just waiting for you :nuke:
:wtf: why is it the LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES who are always such problems for the party, when the DLC message keeps LOSING elections?

[Gidney N Cloyd]

103. I'm just worried about her breaking a hip.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

105. I LOVE Jane Fonda...and I want her to protest this war

She protested the last one and thanks to the efforts of fearless people like her, we got the fuck out of Viet Nam...maybe she'll be two for two...and GOD LOVE HER...the woman does NOT CARE if people hate her..she is going to do what she stands for...a lesson more people need to learn...how to stand for what you believe in.

[msmcghee]

107. How about considering fairness and loyalty for progressives . .

Some here keep questioning whether her involvement will hurt progressives because she is a volatile target for puke rage.

That's a dumb way to look at it - sounds very DLC to me. That's why we have so little respect from independents - why are so many here willing to turn on our friends if they think they could gain a slight advantage. That's called betrayal and selling out.

She has been an honest and passionate progressive. She's put her money and her beliefs on the line for progressive ideals time after time.

She made a mistake long ago and apologized. To rebuff her would be a crass opportunistic act by people who'd rather look good to our enemies than be loyal to our real friends.

Talk like that makes me sick. I say the hell with that.

Go Jane, I love ya'.

[NuttyFluffers]

114. Easy. Barbarella over War Criminals and Traitors, each and every time.

And if some can't deal with that, they can blow it out their ass.

-with love, the fluff

[Sparkman]

117. Amazing how the lies about J.F. persist, 30 years later. She HELPED the

Anti-War movement, dispite the false accusations of the pro-war lobby running the later stages of the war. Her celebrity kept many protestors out of prison. Accused of treason by the RW, it was obvious to most that she visited the North, without divulging secrets or advocating more killing. Peacenics like J.F. had a long hard run in their carrears and lives.

[King Coal]

121. Who's packin' rocks?

:eyes: