Maybe Some People Simply Deseve to be Poor!

[DemocracyInaction]

I'm not referring to people who are already poor. I'm talking about a large group of middle-class, dumb sons-of-bitches who support and vote for republicans---republicans who are nailing the lid shut on their middle-class lives daily. And yesterday I finally hit the wall in caring about these people!!

The breaking away of those several unions from the AFL-CIO for reasons including not wanting to support Dem candidates (which is an automatic support for the repubs one way or the other)convinced me that there really are people who are born to be peons. I now have no desire to support or fight for such people and hope the Dem party doesn't waste one breath or dollar on them. Since this was by vote of their membership, then I think it's safe to say that their membership has all along been voting Republican---talk about flushing your union dues down the crapper!! Perhaps, minimum wage is really way beyond the pay that such mental trash are worth.

Let them content themselves listening to Rush (and I'm sure they do)as a joyous corporate America, their bosses and the invested wealthy party at the news. Let them eat dirt and wonder why their lives keep sucking.

[ET Awful]

1. There's a lot of people that deserve to be poor, the only problem is

they happen to be most of the same ones that are currently rich.

[Tux]

2. Here here

Let them eat cake and not have it too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

You know that is also

a RW talking point. They claim that hard work will allow the poor to rise out of poverty, though.

[Xipe Totec]

3. Thinning the Herd

Sometimes it is necessary to cull out those who are too stupid to look after their own self interests.

Those who FINALLY wake up, will abandon the Republican party. Those who don't will perish and cease to be a factor.

[lvx35]

4. I was just at AFL-CIO offices today talking about this.

And her opinion was that the break-up does NOT signify that they want to be republicans, they just want to run things differently.

[jean]

8. they need vibrant, pro-active leadership and Sweeney is not it.

I hope the split is due to this need to dump Sweeney - he's up for re-election soon, isn't he?

[gizmo1979]

10. He's running unopposed

[RC]

19. Let me see If I have got this stright...

A very large part of the union is splitting off because they do not like the way things are being run?

The current leader is running unopposed?

What is wrong with this picture? Duh, people wake up. No wonder this country is in trouble.

[gizmo1979]

29. I guess they did'nt think they

had a chance against sweeney.I'm not sure how the vote goes,but I don't thinks it's everyone that votes,I've been in the UAW for ten years and I know I've never voted for president.

[lvx35]

11. I'm not sure, but change is coming...And that's good.

There is a lot of action going on with the AFL-CIO now, as far as change. They are re-energized, and moving in new directions. Its about time, in my opinion...But its simply a reaction to the bigger changes that are taking hold of the democratic party. Much needed reforms are in progress.

[two gun sid]

14. I hope some change is coming...

I have never been comfortable with labor supporting political parties. I want my Union to organize and educate. If people realize the class warfare that has been perpetrated against the working class by the employing class they will draw their own conclusions and vote accordingly.

I want my dues to be used for collective bargaining and organizing. I will support my Union no matter what course is taken and if I want them to change I will work within my Union to change it.

When you think about it, your Union is the closest thing to democracy we working class ever get to participate in.

[lvx35]

20. Current Unions are 30% Republican.

We'll see how it goes, I was suprised to learn this recently. I agree that the focus should just be on making unions better, more timely. But it really does depend on the legislation coming out of DC. If the republicans wanted to seduce the unions, they could do some things and get a lot of votes, but that would be a change from what they've done to this point.

edit: The point being, more republican support may make unions more non-political, probably will not swing them to the right though.

[two gun sid]

22. The repubs will never inact any laws that would help Unions...

they are trying to return this country to the 1920's. They will only use wedge issues to try to cut off a section of the Union who are swayed by issues like Gays, Guns and Abortion.

My own Union in MI is probably at least 30% repug and probably closer to 40%. My grandfather and his Union Brothers and Sisters are rolling in their graves.

[lvx35]

25. Agreed. They will probably stay democrat

because reugs will not do anything for them. In my opinion, the unions shouldn't break away from the Dems, but the dems need some serious reform.

[sendero]

23. That's what I gathered also..

... something like, the AFL-CIO wants to work at grass root politics, the renegade unions want to organize more unions.

Frankly, I can't blame anyone for wanting to bail, the union leadership in this country is even less effective than the Dem leadership.

[lvx35]

26. I think that's accurate.

But its also a change on the part of the AFL-CIO, and I literally think its a good thing. Not the current methods necessarily, but the change itself. If AFL-CIO is willing to learn from the mistakes its going through, it will be better off for it.

[Rich Hunt]

5. I suppose

...that anyone who wastes as much time and money as they do, all the while preaching "good judgment" and other "conservative" values ought to fail - by their own standards.

[MissWaverly]

6. No one deserves poverty

I realized yesterday that the dittoheads across the street from me are
really suffering, I think their electric bill is running $400 a month
due to their ancient oil tankless system, when I converted to natural gas and a hot water tank, they said I was frivolous, when I went with
an alternative to our local gas company, they said I would be conned,
and of course, I am with a alternate phone company that handles all
local, and long distance and internet for $90 a month, they are really
suffering with these bills. I am not gloating, I only wish that I could
convince them, my utility bill is running $90 a month this summer and since I switched to an alternate supplier for the gas, I save $30.00 a month in winter, but I am a wild eyed liberal, what do I know.

[jody]

7. Perhaps some are destined to be poor but that doesn't mean

starving, going without health care, and decent living conditions.

To whom nature has given much, much is demanded. That's applying the Golden Rule rather than the Rule of Gold.

[AtomicKitten]

9. I have no sympathy ...

for poor Republicans. As ever the compliant sheep, they get all wrapped up in the morals crappola dished up by the rich Republicans. And that is a twisted version of christianity and not particularly christlike behavior. Everu election the Repubs pull out the same crap, flip-flopping, alleged moral superiority rather than defining a genuine difference of opinion, and the infamous Rove trash and burn. And it works on the red states because they are stupid. And, as a result, they will forever remain poor because they aren't smart enough to consider their genuine self-interest above the brutal brow-beating they get from the Republicans.

If you want to really help yourself before it's too late, file bankruptcy before October 17th. You can wipe out past tax debt through Chapter 13, but that ends in October. Take advantage of something that the Republicans (and thanks to those few ever-helpful Dems) have taken away from the working man.

[sweetheart]

12. Poverty is in the heart

All the wealth in the world does not make you rich,
and having nothing does no make you poor.
Its all in how you love.

[wellstone dem]

15. amen

You said it perfectly.

[hfojvt]

30. "there's another kind of poverty

that only rich men know
a moral malnutrition
that starves their very souls
and they can't be saved by money
they're all running out of time
all the while their thinking
'it's okay, 'cause I've got mine'"
Glenn Frey "I've got mine"

[sweetheart]

31. something about camels and needles

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24)

http://shamar.org/articles/camel-needle.htm

[ikojo]

13. For too long the Dems have taken working people

for granted. The DLC would love to distance the Dems from union members in favor of corporate donations, but every two to four years we are told THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION OF OUR LIFETIME, blah, blah, blah....while Dems do all they can to run as Repub lite.

I agree with SEIU leaving the AFL-CIO..maybe now "organized labor" will get to the business of ORGANIZING. I work for an insurance company and have worked in insurance for many years. Over the years UNIONS have used NON UNION insurance companies to process their claims. If unions were really interested in organizing workers then they would insist on doing business with unionized insurance companies.

This is not a sudden development as Jerry Tucker wrote in a Z Magazine commentary that was carried on the Truthout.org site back in March...

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/36/9818

snip

These are 'outcomes' of the long, unfolding crisis, not root causes. Despite the novelty, but obvious seriousness, of the current debate, U.S. Labor did not arrive at this point of historic impotence in just the past several years. This downward spiral has been in process for decades. Workers at the base became painfully aware that corporate capital was breaking the so-called 'social contract' many years ago. Their initial anticipation that leaders of the nation's unions might devise appropriate strategies to resist or blunt the assault or that, in many instances, their own local determination to fight back would be welcomed and fully supported was one of the first casualties of this new chapter of class warfare being written in America.

Unabated disinvestment, corporate whipsawing of one plant's workers against another's, job blackmail, often with union leadership complicity, and a magician's trunk full of solidarity busting workplace reorganization schemes had, by the mid-1980's, become the backdrop for the renewed concerted employer aggression. Most labor bureaucrats were either untrained and/or more often unwilling to venture out of their comfort-zones to lead struggles against this eviscerating reality.

snip

Not one of the Federation's cautious 'new thinkers' has proposed a break with the Democratic Party, or even the development of an informed grassroots program for disciplining or replacing Democratic office holders who vote against labor's interests. None of the proposals suggest promoting independent working class/coalition- based political activity.

snip

....The revitalization of the labor movement will happen only as it becomes part of a larger social movement driven by a militant response to injustice well beyond our current ranks and workplaces. It will come as part of a culturally transforming period. As in the 1930's, the energy and true power will be in the ranks but, as before, progressive leaders who reject the primacy of the marketplace will be essential to assist in many facets of the democratic upsurge. Good practices will survive and new collective strategies and tactics will drive the movement forward.

[Democrats_win]

16. "Guns, Germs & Steel" shows people don't deserve to be poor

I appreciate that the the point here is that people make the wrong choices like voting for bush and they "deserve to be poor." I know that political correctness is dead, but still...

This "choices" idea is a remnant of the old conservative dogma from the 80's that we were forced to listen too. Honestly, shouldn't conservative dogma be dead rather than PC?

PBS show "Guns, Germs & Steel" demonstrates that "choices" may not have anything to do with a person being poor.

People deserve to be treated like human beings when it comes to basic needs. (Not the republican way such as the way they treat people at Gitmo and Abhu Ghraib.)

[mondo joe]

18. This is true to a degree. But people DO make choices.

GG&S is about how populations fare given their opportunities ands resources.

But within a population some make wise choices and some make poor choices. One brother may choose an education and may manage his money well. His brother may opt out of school to play in a band that nevver goes anywhere. The first brother may use birth control until he's ready to have a family, the second may be careless and thus is financially responsible for kids he can't afford to raise.

Yes, people do bear some responsibility for what they do given their options.

But the question is do they deserve to be POOR? I think people deserve the benefit and expense of their efforts. But I also think they deserve opportunities though they may not take them, access to health care and a decent infrastructure.

So though I do think some make choices that lead to lesser incomes, I also believe systemms should exist to help them change that.

[pitohui]

21. one man may opt out of school to form a band

and we have john lennon

another man may opt to continue in school and be a sheep and get a piece of paper and work 60 hours a week and his job is at enron and he ends up with no retirement

there are no rules

no one can guarantee through hard work or through sacrifice of a dream that he will not be poor

life is chance

working hard promises you nothing except the right to feel superior if it works out for you and the right to feel cheated of your dream if it doesn't

food, shelter, health care should be there for all

[mondo joe]

24. Indeed - there are gambles and risks. They may ennd up John Lennon, or

they may end up working at 7-11.

Some may choose the more risky path, and the rewards are theirs if they are successful - but if not, the loss is theirs as well.

People make choices. But for some reason you feel taking a risk should entail only rewards.

[pitohui]

27. interesting that you know what i feel

But for some reason you feel taking a risk should entail only rewards.

mom...?

taking a risk and having a chance of contributing more to our society than the paper-pusher should not be punishable by the death penalty through lack of medicine or shelter if the risk does not succeed

i wonder why you think the man working in the 7-11 deserves your scorn
rather than equal access to health care or the basics of life

when i was young, we could not buy many basics of life on a sunday or at certain times of night, i would say the man from 7-11 is a valuable part of our society, he deserves basic protection and rights

[mondo joe]

28. Just based on your post.

I don't know what you have against "paper pushers". I don't think less of a person for how they make a living, provided they aren't harming others.

I'm sure many DU posters are "paper pushers".

I don't think the guy working at 7-11 deserves my scorn, or anyone else's. But he or she might well be described as "poor" since they're pretty low on the earnings scale.

Does he or she "deserve" to be poor? I don't know. Did he or she make choices that led to this? Then I'd say yes.

I don't know which basic rights you think I'd deny him or her.

[pitohui]

32. paper pusher made a choice to be a paper pusher

prattle of choice always leads to the conclusion that people are pretty much where they deserve to be, leads to lack of empathy or caring

i call b.s. on that argument

some paper pushers worked 60 hours a week at enron and thought they were part of something important and ended up being cheated

did they make a choice

what does choice mean

we don't have enough information to make fully informed choices, we guess and do the best we can

then those who got lucky or guessed right about what industry is hiring when they graduate get to laugh at the dude working at 7-11

i call b.s. on the choice prattle

no one makes a choice to be poor yet somehow it continues to happen to a certain percentage of the population

the dharma bums who make a choice to be poor are a statistically insignificant part of the population

choice is not real, it is just a comforting illusion, too scary to look into that cold sky and accept most of what we are is beyond our control

easier to pretend we are gods and we make the choice

[mondo joe]

33. Again, people do make choices. By your rationale Bush is blameless -

he's just adrift on a sea of chance, like everyone else in your opinion.

You want to believe no one makes choices, fine. You'ree not going to convince many people because most of us recognize the choices we've made in our own lives.

[Rainscents]

17. My understanding for breaking up Union is talking about... Sweeney

is from old (do anything and involvement with too many corruption) and lot of Union members want change... They're starting grass root Unions. People want change and they're sick of Sweeney NOT fighting for UNIONS and now, they want new Union... FIGHTING UNION! This is kind a like, between DNC and DLC.