Are Bush's "Rape Rooms" really Urban Legends? Google had nothing but

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

conjecture on RW blogs and sites except for the stories that quoted Dubya.

Plenty of sites with people ranting about Saddam's rape rooms coupled with the plastic shredders and tossing babies out of incubators... But I looked for an hour and could not find ONE SINGLE SERIOUS piece of journalism about this heinous accusation.

Dubya used it in his "you got 48 hours" speech and continues to use it today. But there does not seem to be anything concrete to base anything on.

[thebigidea]

1. I burst out laughing when he first said it

Absolutely insane. RAPE ROOMS?!?!?!

[Andy_Stephenson]

17. You really should read

response 16.

:hi:

[acmavm]

2. You act surprised that there's no credible information on this

particular claim by Shrubby. You are going to have to learn that 95% of anything that comes out of his mouth is based on dementia and the remaining 5% is based on stupidity.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

4. LOL... Not surprised. A bit pleased that this may be something

that can be built into an issue.

[lcordero]

3. The rape rooms do exist...but not necessarily in Iraq

[thebigidea]

6. uh, credit card reciepts for prostitutes hardly equal rape

then again, there is that whole "undisclosed location" thing dear Dickie-boy setup... hmmm...

[Andy_Stephenson]

21. Learn about the franklin coverup

I think Tenent has the goods...Watch for Tenent to commit "Suicide" soon.

[Andy_Stephenson]

18. Lcordero see this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=392459&mesg_id=392459

[gulliver]

5. I hope someone is fact checking this.

It's probably another line of bullshit from the little feller. I would think that systematic rape would be fairly inflammatory in a country like Iraq. It would be just the sort of thing that Machiavelli would advise against. It's not the sort of thing I would expect a hard-bitten guy like Saddam to do.

Kill and torture the men, sure. But rape Muslim women systematically? That I doubt on the face of it.

Maybe Udie and Quzie raped someone and it was in a room. That would be awful, of course, but a crime and not a reason to go to war. But given Bush's tendency to exaggerate and weasel, I would expect Bush's "rape rooms" to have about that much provenance.

[ramblin_dave]

7. Maybe Dubya found out about them from brother Neil

Neil Bush Admits Asian Flings

Bush's brother Neil cheated on his ex-wife, Sharon, with local women he met during business trips to the Far East, according to a videotaped deposition conducted by Sharon's lawyers. "I had had sexual intercourse with perhaps three or four - I don't remember the exact number - women at different times," Neil Bush said during his just-leaked deposition.

[Andy_Stephenson]

19. The whole issue being raised now

Is designed for us to take our eyes of Neil. They are afraid that the Conspiracy of Silence will be exposed.

[KoKo]

8. Ahh......but why does he keep repeating it....Drink, Coke, dillusion, Rove

Why does he harp on this....and particularly the last week. Prominent TWICE in MAJOR Speeches?

We, might think it's an urban legend....but I think he might have photo's. (Are they Doctored? YES....maybe....whatever) The folks who watch the "Cables" love TRIALS and the gory detals of Lacy Peterson have captured their attention (according to the "whore cables") What might RAPE PIT PHOTOS AND TORTURE CHAMBERS with 13th Century and Nazi Germany impliments of TORTURE do to their "fagile" psychies.......to influence the coming battle with UN and forthcoming election?

What?

[JDStutts]

9. Margie Schoedinger knows all about rape rooms

http://english.pravda.ru/usa/2002/12/13/40786.html

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

10. I've looked at the Schoedinger papers and while there's a lot

of bullying that has been done, the fact that she's representing herself bothers me as to the voracity of the claim.

I would imagine that the case would have seen a lot more light than it has seen if it were in fact true. There's a whole lotta people that would love to see Mr. Moral Monkey get a comeuppance like this.

Just my opinion.

[otohara]

11. Rape Rooms Were Down In The Bunkers

that "didn't exist" either.:freak:

[otohara]

12. He Was Thinking of Arnold Schwarzenegger's

body builder days at the gym, where there were rape rooms used by Arnold and his buddies

[F.Gordon]

13. Perhaps this may help.........

These are a couple of State Department propaganda pieces on the subject. No documentation. No proof. Released in time for the buildup of bullshit for the "war"......

http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/focus/

http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/18877.htm

I believe this document is the origin of this LIE. Again; no documentation. No proof. And it is a "study" done by the Military with the "help" of a few Kuwait assistants......also notice that this report mentions that none of the 500 suspected Iraqi's that committed these "crimes" were ever caught......

http://lb.wnd.com/iraq-crimes-index.pdf

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

14. Great info. Thanks. And I agree with your assessment that there

is no proof other than "someone said." No names, dates or 1st person declarations. I wish a reporter would ask him for verifiable proof of these rape rooms.

[F.Gordon]

28. The military "documented" 50 torture chambers

in Kuwait. It shouldn't be that hard for them to come up with one itsy bitsy piece of "evidence" to prove all these horrible stories. And there appears to be video and photographic evidence. Where are they? The Bushies/Right Wing had no problem releasing the video of the journalist-beheading. I'm sure Drudge would be more than happy to post some of these old "rape" and "torture" videos......

[KoKo]

15. Motivated...the sad thing about these links is...wondering if info came

from Chalibi and his group..who wanted control of Iraq from Bush. These are horrible human rights crimes....but since it comes from the "State Department" how do we know if it's any different from the other stuff they "hyped" about the WMD/Chem/Bio?

I wish I could believe what the US State Department says.... I used to believe .....until I realized that our Goverment could lie to us...about horrendous things......like the "Tuskeegee Experiment" and the "Atom Bomb tests" in Nevada......and on and on.

Sad......it's hard to know what's true and what isn't......But I do believe much bad stuff went on in Iraq under Saddam........I still don't see how that justifies our Invasion and Occupation.

And, reading these reports ......it seems someone made up the terms "Rape Pits" and "Torture Chambers" as "buzzwords" to describe what's in the State Department links..... Sounds like Bush's love for "nicknames" and "shortened" descriptions that don't take much thought is at play here....He thought the phrases up himself....:-(

[Andy_Stephenson]

16. Bush* is projecting...he is diverting attention away from

this sordid affair.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=392459&mesg_id=392459

[Wapsie B]

20. Rape rooms?

I thought you were talking about chimpy's real rape.

[leanings]

22. Doubtful

"On June 7, Staff Lieut. Gen. Najib al-Salihi, former chief of staff of the Iraqi army's Sixth Armoured Division who had fled to Jordan in 1995, received a videotape showing the rape of a female relative by intelligence personnel. The rape or threat of rape has long been used in Iraq as a punitive measure against opponents to extract confessions or information or to pressure them into desisting from anti-government activities"

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/mideast/iraq.html

FAS' Iraqi Research and Documentation Project has a copy of an ID card belonging to a professional rapist employed by the Iraqi security service. Here's their website, unfortunately seems to be down at the moment:

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/

If they employed professional rapists I don't see it as much of a stretch that they gave them offices.

There's really no reason for Bush to have lied about the things Saddam did to his own people; his actions were about as heinous as we pinked cheeked well fed Americans could imagine (I know, we're not all pink, just an expression). That's just not the issue here.

Edited to add: also from Amnesty:

"Political prisoners and detainees were subjected to systematic torture. The bodies of many of those executed had evident signs of torture. Common methods of physical torture included electric shocks or cigarette burns to various parts of the body, pulling out of fingernails, rape, long periods of suspension by the limbs from either a rotating fan in the ceiling or from a horizontal pole, beating with cables, hosepipe or metal rods, and falaqa (beating on the soles of the feet). In addition, detainees were threatened with rape and subjected to mock execution. They were placed in cells where they could hear the screams of others being tortured and were deliberately deprived of sleep."

http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/iraq?Open

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

24. Great links, which bolster my opinions regarding Bush's "rape pits"

and "rape rooms." There is the one reference to an Iraqi Officer who recieved a tape of a relative being raped. Bush's rhetoric makes it sound as if there were a "rape room" on every corner in downtown Baghdad. It's also interesting to note that according to AI, rape was a death penalty offence ("In November the Revolutionary Command Council, the highest executive body in the country, issued a decree to provide the death penalty for the offences of prostitution, homosexuality, incest and rape.").

IMHO, if this is true as well, it would be a logical conclusion that the use of rape for purposes of politics or punishment was much more the exception than the rule. I'd bet dollars to donuts that you can Google up more confirmed rape stories in American prisons and jails by both inmates AND guards than rapes in Iraqi prisons or "rape rooms."

By the Bush logic, we should now refer to our own prisons as rape pits.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

26. I tried to get into the FAS site and couldn't... But I'm pretty sure

that if there were "PROFESSIONAL RAPISTS" that were carrying Rapist ID cards in a country where rape is a capital offence that it would have been picked up by Fox and others instead of languishing in a Faculty of Arts and Sciences web page.

Even the term smacks of spin.

[leanings]

32. The FAS site is back up now.

And shows the ID card of a professional rapist. I don't think that a project based at Harvard and conducted by the Federation of American Scientists is likely to be a very Bush-biased source.

The links to AI and HRW both talk about the use of rape by the Iraqi government.

This is directed at you personally Billy, but I don't understand why people will still continue to think that there was some redeeming quality or exonerating fact about Saddam's regime. People jump to doubt well-documented facts or try to somehow lessen the impact of the regime's crimes by comparing them to actions of other governments around the world. This is a pretty common facet of DU; information which might support one's argument is accepted without the slightest critical eye and anything that might undermine one's position is immediately rejected as propaganda regardless of the source. It contributes to this disturbing view of American politics as a football game, with the Freepers rah-rahing on one side and us on the other. Not everything the US government says is a lie, and situations are for more nuanced than many here seem to acknowledge.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

33. Where do you get "Federation of American Scientists? The FAS site

at Harvard is the Faculty of Arts and Sciences site. Walk it back and you will see.

As to the picture, (linked below) a hand written note does not constitute an ID card. And with the textual description (en toto:

"A Professional Rapist

Government personnel card of Aziz Saleh Ahmed, identified as a "fighter in the popular army" whose "activity" is "violation of women's honor" .")

offering NO history or method of determining where the hell it came from, I can't consider this to be viable. This is NOT "well documented. The site is run by The Iraq Foundation whose web site states of itself:

The Iraq Foundation is a non-profit, 501(C)3 corporation, working for democracy and human rights in Iraq, and for a better international understanding of Iraq's potential as a contributor to political stability and economic progress in the Middle East.
The Foundation was established in 1991 by Iraqi expatriates with the purpose of working with Iraqis and non-Iraqis in promoting its vision. The Foundation is non-partisan, non-sectarian and non-ethnic, and is not affiliated with any other organization or political party.

All contributions to the Iraq Foundation are tax deductible in the US.
<snip>
Sounds like Chalabi's people to me. The address? 1012 14 St. NW, Suite 1110, Washington, DC 20005; Tel: [phone]; Fax: [phone] & 7898

They Are connected to DC.

http://www.iraqfoundation.org/foundation.html




And, believe me, just about ANY information purported to be "truth" here in DU is asked for corroboration no matter right or left in its supposition.

[leanings]

35. oops.

Sorry, I saw FAS and thought of the other. The IRDP, while using money from the Iraq foundation, seems to be run under the auspices of Harvard's Center for Middle Eastern Studies. I don't know anything about the Iraq Foundation, but what you've shown here is no cause for alarm. Do you have any evidence they are connected to Chalabi? Is there something inherently wrong with "working for democracy and human rights in Iraq"? So what if they're located in DC? Most of the NGO's in the country have a DC office. Now, I know that if you look hard enough you can always find a reason to dismiss things you disagree with, but I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe these folks aren't on the up and up.

As for the personnel card, it's obviously not hand written. According to the site, the original cache of documents were reviewed by both the Clinton DoD and Human Rights Watch. While there isn't a detailed provenance, I don't see anyone disputing the authenticity of the site or the documents there-in. The site is oft-cited by the State Department and other pro-war entities, so it would seem that if there was some doubt as to the documents authenticity it would have been raised somewhere.

You also asked for proof of systemic rapes. In both the AI link and the HRW link rape is mentioned as a tool of the regime. I can also tell you from my discussions with Kuwaitis during my time in the ME that the stories of rape and torture from the occupation are real. I also came across several Robert Fisk articles mentioning the use of rape by the Husseins, and he's not exactly a tool of the administration.

I think the problem here is that the only people who you'll find publicizing rape in Iraq are those organizations with which you'll have bias issues. It's not as tho there was a free opposition press in Iraq documenting these occurences.

"And, believe me, just about ANY information purported to be "truth" here in DU is asked for corroboration no matter right or left in its supposition."

My ass. Go look at the reactions to articles posted in LBN. Any good news is uncritically lauded, anything uncomfortable is automatically damned. Happens on a daily basis.

[quaker bill]

23. There is likely some truth here

Saddam was an oppressive dictator, not unlike others the US has supported in the past.

Rape is a well known form of torture. It's historic use as a form of torture is well documented under many oppressive regimes.

In an Islamic society with such strict sexual mores imposed on women, the power of such a technique to repress opposition would only be amplified.

Regardless, Iraq under Saddam was no imminemnt theat to the US. Even if true, pre-emptive war is still not justified.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

25. If that's so, please provide a link that offers proof of systematic rapes

by the Hussein goons. There has been ONE report with a name of someone who has had a member of his family raped documented by AI.

This does not make me feel that Bush's constant reference to the "rape rooms" is anything other than rhetoric designed to raise the ire of the public.

[gulliver]

29. ROFL "likely some truth here"

That's Bush's standard of evidence in a nutshell. If there's "likely some truth" to something, that's good enough for Bush. Hell, he'll put it into next years State of the Union and say there's no doubt whatsoever if there is "likely some truth." Bush goes to war on that level of "truth."

Is "likely some truth" good enough for a United States President? Is it good enough for you?

[artr2]

27. I thought he was talking about his own bedroom

nt

[Andy_Stephenson]

30. He is n/t

[Fridays Child]

31. Shh. Don't tell anyone but our new strategic partners in Uzbekistan...

...allow their military police to boil prisoners alive.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

34. But I am sure they boil their dissidents in a compassionate way.

Just as the adjective for our bombing of Baghdad was described as compassionate bu Dumbya.