STOP the flame-waring, for God's sake

[Selatius]

I don't know exactly where the spark hit the fuel, but it appears there's a good deal of back-biting over what the DLC is doing or has done in the past.

No, I don't agree with their free trade policies. No, I did not agree with NAFTA. No, I did not agree with the Telecommunications Act of 1996, and no, I don't support CAFTA. Those are my views, and I'm getting them out there right now for all of you to see.

Now, the point I'm going to make is rather simple: There CAN BE NO dialogue if anyone on any side here keeps provoking fights with others here. We come here to share ideas, and if we disagree, then it ought to be that people should hash out their differences in a reasonable manner as opposed to blowing up into a flame war. It's difficult, but nothing is gained by unleashing on the boards as opposed to harnessing that anger with the yoke of reason.

The reason why I find myself almost diametrically opposed to the DLC on things such as their corporate campaign contributions, free trade, and other things is not because I'm some far-left whack job. Far from it. I resent being pigeonholed as such, so I try not to do it to others. If I don't like it if the DLC does it to me, then I certainly wouldn't want to do it to others. I speak for myself only, and I'm not here to speak for the "far left" in general. We're all thinking people here. We can all speak for ourselves.

I will readily admit to anyone here that I believe the long-term solution for humanity and the survival of our planet as a habitable world is not capitalism but, rather, socialism. Does that make me a minority here? Most likely. I'm OK with that. The reason why I think it is the long-term solution is because I believe sustainable mutual cooperation is the doorway to the future, not unsustainable destructive competition and consumerism to see who can make what for the lowest prices possible without regard to the environment or humanity.

I am on the side of socialism precisely because I'm on the side of humanity. It is unfair that human beings are treated differently because of where they come from or where they live. Oh, it's okay to have, for instance, Chinese workers being paid in modern day gulag-cities 60 cents an hour to produce our goods because we want low prices, but it's not okay to stand up and condemn such heinous atrocities because this is all about free trade and capitalism and free-market enterprise and that I'm "getting in the way of progress."

It's wrong to me. I could not justify that with the principles I have, and it seems people like Jesus and Gandhi and others could never justify it either. If having cheap labor for cents on the dollar is the definition of progress, then we've got to stop everything right now and rethink our fucking priorities on this planet of ours because it's not going to get us anywhere but our own self-destruction in an ocean of blood and misery.

I can't justify a system that pits someone who has to be paid 60 cents an hour next to a worker who has to be paid $5.12 an hour. I can't justify a system that encourages illegal immigration because "they keep the prices down." (What a despicable, inhumane argument) I cannot justify the top 1 percent of planet earth owning the majority of the planet's resources in the name of capitalism while billions go to sleep hungry each night because they're too poor to have a slice of the pie.

I'll die long before the day where no man owns any other man. I'll be dust before the day where people can truly say to each other that they are brothers and equals who deserve the same treatment, and I'll be just a memory before the last man who could claim ownership over any resource as a way of making a profit and controlling people is removed from power. I'll be dead, so why the hell should I even bother holding these damn principles?

Because I'm a human being, not a fucking cog in somebody else's war machine or money machine.

[wookie294]

1. Agree: The DLC must stop provoking fights

The DLC should stop telling everybody else to "shut up."

[LittleClarkie]

2. Translation: "They started it"

(sigh)

Sorry tootz, but I think the OP was talking to y'all as well.

[wookie294]

3. I agree. I was being creative.

Notice how the DLC is not accused of being unreasonable and vindictive. Why is that?

[LittleClarkie]

6. By who?

If they haven't been, it's the only things they HAVEN'T been accused of.

Frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a damn about what they're being accused of, or how fair people find it, or who's keeping score. If you wanna obsess on assclowns like From, then knock yourself out. I may not agree with the man, but he just doesn't take up that much of my thoughts, you know?

[wookie294]

12. How did you know my name is Scarlett ?

Frankly, my dear, you should understand that Al From is a HUGE force within the Democratic Party and has far more power than the liberals of the DNC. He's a VERY BIG deal and he has alot of influence over Hillary and other Dems in the leadership. If you want to ignore this reality, then that's your perogative. Enjoy.

[KharmaTrain]

4. Is This The First Let's Not Flame Flame Thread?

I'm trying to keep score here.

Where's my hazmat suit???

[Melodybe]

5. I'm trying to make peace, I swear I am, it's just really

really really really reallly really frustrating when your own party keeps selling you down the river, and then telling you you're wrong, and then telling you to shut up, all while they play golf and sip champagne with people you consider to be the epitome of evil.

Aren't there some things so valuable that there should never be compromise?

That's all I'm saying yo.

[Skidmore]

8. Melody, I understand your anger because I feel it too.

As far as I'm concerned, the DLC doesn't appear to be interested in dialogue, but more interested in telling everyone who disagrees with them to sit down, shut up, and pony up the votes for their candidate du jour--or else. Well, we've had plenty of "or else", and I'm tired of being told to "shut up" by a group of people who are hooked on power and wealth and could care less what happens to displaced workers, women, children, or anyone else disenfranchised by these policies they support. Time to wean them from the party largesse. I feel very strongly about this. Becoming like the Rs is NOT the answer because doing so perpetuates the same destructive policies. Stand firm. I, for one, will not shut up and go away.

[KharmaTrain]

9. I'm With You 99.9%

That last .1% is what makes us both different and what makes Democrats, Liberals and Progressives the thinkers and good people we are.

I think you'll find on the key social issues...woman's right to choose, gay rights, health care, free speech and so on, there's not much rancor on where we stand...and we all abhor what we see on the other side...the Repugnicans. (gotta remember those guys ya know...LOL)

Yes, I believe it's wrong to sell out a conviction for political expediency or personal gain. Sadly that happens all the time and I have learned to file in the "life's not fair" dept. but also keep in mind who these people are and how reliable they will be in the future.

My point, and that, I've seen of many others has been the DLC is a problem, but it's not THE problem. Their impact on what's currently happening is minimal and to divert attention away from winning elections next year to fight among ourselves is similar, IMHO to the Naderites who did far more harm standing up for their principles than good.

Cheers...

[G_j]

23. when people are told to sit down and shut up

the natural inclination for many is to stand up and start shouting.
I think there is some of that chemistry at work here.

[Mairead]

24. "Aren't some things too important to compromise on?"

Yes indeed!

If we're up against people who want to eat babies alive, we'd be mad to say 'okay, you can eat them but you have to kill them first'.

Similarly, confronted with psychopaths who want to plunder the world's poor, we'd be ethically bankrupt to say 'let's compromise: you can plunder half the world's poor, but not all of them.'

[Selatius]

11. No, I am most certainly NOT intending to start a new flame-war

This is simply a call to reason. If I wanted a flame war, I would've resorted to stupid insults and ridicule of everyone here who supports the DLC, but I DID NOT do such a thing.

I declared my own principles and stated my general disagreements with DLC policy, but that's different from calling out every person on here who supports the DLC just so I could tell them to "get lost."

[KharmaTrain]

13. I Know...An Early Attempt At Humor

I appologize if you thought I was trying to start something. I got in the crosshairs of this stuff yesterday. I ready to go back to the regular Karl Rove trashing...which is already in progress.

[Skidmore]

14. I appreciate your good intentions; however, I'm letting you know

why I have chosen to stand behind my position that it is the DLC which must make some changes to be more in line with a party that purports to represent the "working person", rather than expecting the party to adopt its policies which mimic those of the "opposition". Personally, I will not give on iota on my position because those policies have been so destructive to the people of this nation. My belief is that there are many more people who think like me in the party. If the DLC and its supporters want to be R-lite, then they need to become a part of the R party and at least be honest about their political loyalties.

[Selatius]

15. I'm not asking anyone to concede their principles

Rather, there are better ways of persueing dialogue than, for instance, trying to marginalize those one disagrees with or resorting to insults and ridicule.

When a person says, "You shouldn't listen to them; they're far left," you're going to get the same reaction out of me as if that person said, "They should get lost." I'd tell everyone flat out that if you disagree, point out exactly where you disagree and stop using tactics to try to shut down conversation and cut out the insults.

Just state your position. They will state their position. The people will decide given the information everyone puts out there to analyze. Using tactics to marginalize the opponent and using insults isn't going to address the meat of anyone's argument except throw up a distraction. I'm not accusing you of doing any of this, but there's been enough I've seen to think somebody had to say something.

[papau]

17. Excellent Post - Thanks - I agree with everything you said! :-)

:-)

[rman]

7. If speaking out against = "provoking fights",

then i guess some here are beyond dialogue.

[sasquatch]

10. Excuse me, but could you show me the way to the front?

:evilgrin:

[julianer]

16. That's a great post Selatius

'I am on the side of socialism precisely because I'm on the side of humanity.'

Exactly.

Anyway, I'm a bit confused about the DLC, the DNC etc. What sort of internal democracy is there in the Democratic Party? Is the DLC an elected national leadership? How is party policy formed and what input do ordinary members have? Is there a formal link with the trade unions?

I thought I'd ask you since we appear to be comrades politically and I'll probably get a sensible answer:)

[Jersey Devil]

18. Why must you characterize disagreement as a "flame war"

I don't see anyone here taking personal shots at other posters, which is what a real flame war is all about.

All I am seeing here is a good, healthy (imo), hearty debate about the direction the Democratic Party must take if it is to be successful in the future and achieve majority status again in our country.

Were posters trashing the Democratic nominee in 2008 you would have a very good point. But it is 2005, less than a year after the last debacle, and this type of discussion is important and needed.

[mtnester]

19. I am sorry, but untill the DLC decides they are not going to trade

my rights as a woman for the White House, then they have no support from me, and no pity either for the beating they are taking right now.

Besides, look how successful their efforts were the past two times to get the white house. :sarcasm:

Middle of the road is NOT a path I am willing to take. You either stand on your principles, or not. Apparently, the DLC has decided the latter.

[burythehatchet]

20. Breaking - DLC's new motto has just been released

"We've lost the war of ideas, lets just make the best of it."

Catchy, huh?

[BeFree]

21. Yeah, replaces the old motto

"They beat the crap outta us... if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"

For too long now, the big D's have gotten away with supressing our ideas of equal rights for even the least amongst us. Our fight against monarchial rule are constantly being tested by the big shots supposedly on our side.

Their success at dividing us is evident as their hidden agenda of limiting us, and our ideas, becomes ever so clear. We really need to quit giving them a hand to their evil union with the slave owners, eh?

[emcguffie]

22. Beautifully stated. NT

[Kurovski]

25. I honestly don't see how there can be room for discussion

at this point.

The DLC has failed Democratic Americans year after year after year...
and since they never bother to examine those failures and make a real change, why frickin' bother with 'em?