He's coming home. At least, most of him.

[11 Bravo]

I posted here several weeks ago about a young Lieutenant I met at a friend's wedding. I learned that he was on his way back to Iraq within days. As an old combat infantryman, I struck up a conversation with him. He talked about why he fights, and how it has nothing to do with any of Bush's bullshit. Just like myself, and every other grunt I ever met, he fought for the guys beside him. I begged any DUers who might encounter him (or any of his brothers and sisters in arms) on the street, if he made it home, to remember that one salient fact. He and the rest took an oath to defend this country, and that's what they are doing. It's not his fault that the current civilian leadership of this nation is headed up by a cabal of chickenhawk corporate criminals. They told him where to go, and he went. Well, he's coming home. Missing his left eye, most of his left arm, and needing further thoracic surgery to help repair his left lung. IED. The friend who's wedding we attended called me this morning. I'll probably head out to Walter Reed to see him in a couple of days. But not today. I'm afraid I might see an SUV with a Bush bumper sticker right above the ribbon proclaiming support for our troops. If that happened today I might hurt somebody.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. I am so sorry. *hugs and prayers*

[babylonsister]

So sad-

words fail me - I'm sorry. :cry:

[bspence]

2. Wow, I hope he rehabilitates well

He should watch Murderball, about people with disabilities who live pretty wild, crazy, fun lives. I was just listening to one of the guys from the documentary on the radio this morning. Pretty inspirational.

[canadianbeaver]

3. I really don't know what to say anymore........

:cry: :cry: :cry: THIS WAR HAS GOT TO STOP

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KarenInMA]

7. don't quibble.

this is not the place.

[Hobarticus]

11. I hope that you don't intend to lecture vets like this...n/t

[quinnox]

12. amen

They would most likely get punched in the face by the vet! I doubt they would say this to a vet face to face.

[PunkPop]

19. I don't know about that.

I would disagree on both your points.

I bet there are plenty of vets that would agree with the sentiment.

and

I think there are plenty of antiwar activists who would say this same thing to a vet face to face.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[11 Bravo]

25. I stayed silent for a while.

Unless you advocate something other than civilian control of the military, what exactly do you expect from our armed forces? When the Constitutionally approved authority sends them to war, they are indeed, "serving their country"; and I assure you, your refusal to characterize it as such doesn't mean a fucking thing to the guys with their asses on the line. You also use the word "crime". Is it your opinion that American GI's in Iraq are war criminals? I was a draftee who saw combat from '70-'71. Am I also a "criminal"?

[mike_c]

29. yes, it is my opinion that they are war criminals....

If you accept that the invasion and occupation of Iraq is a crime of aggression as defined by the Nuremberg protocols-- and I do accept that-- then the conclusion than anyone participating in it is complicit in war crimes is inescapable, just like anyone who participates in a bank robbery is complicit, whether they hold the bag or not. It's a hard truth that we don't want to confront, but there it is. The lesson of Nuremberg was that "approved authority" was not enough to absolve one of responsibility for crimes against humanity.

Whether this means anything to the "guys with their asses on the line" is irrelevant. Did it mean anything to the guys in jackboots who put down the Warsaw Ghetto uprising? Probably not. They were still war criminals, not just because they fought against a partisan resistance, but because they did so in support of a war of aggression. We can't have it both ways-- saying that the war against Iraq is a crime, but that the actions of our military are not is exactly like saying that bank robbery is a crime, but that the fella's that rob banks are pretty much OK-- they're all someone's sons and daughters, husbands and neighbors, after all.

Were you a war criminal? I'll leave that to you to decide. Vietnam was a bit more complicated than the war against Iraq, but in the end, ask yourself whether your combat there was in defense of America, or whether it was in defense of a political philosophy that somehow twisted logic to offer such gems as "destroying the village to save the village." Saying that it was neither, but simply self-defense or defending your buddies is fine, but that means that you have to extend that same rationale to everyone who invades someone else's country and fights a war of aggression, including many of the folks we hanged after WWII. Likewise, the Iraqis who injured your young friend are also simply fighting to survive. Ultimately, the broader crime of serving in a war of aggression matters more than the individual motives of those who particiate in it, IMO.

[Hobarticus]

32. 11 Bravo, you are no war criminal. Thank you for your service.

Some on the left adapt particularly distasteful habits from the right, such as personally demonizing everyone who isn't in lockstep with them. One such tack is equating anyone who's been in uniform with real-deal war criminals.

Pay them no mind.

Thanks, again.

[Orsino]

44. Serving the plutocrats is not the same thing...

...as serving the country. Much of the country, however, has been fooled into believing that rubbish.

Honorable service comes in many forms, and I certainly wouldn't brand all our troops as criminal--but when a war is criminal in itself, nearly everyone who serves bears a bit of blame. Draftees less so than volunteers.

I don't want to paint with too wide a brush. Whether or not someone's service is criminal depends only on what he or she did, or failed to do.

[FreedomAngel82]

27. Exactly

We were NOT threatned or anything or attacked by Iraq. They were mislead by Bush who claimed we were and it never happened. No war since WW2 was defending our country. They are doing what they are told. I don't fault them but I do fault Bush. If any vet from Iraq ever told me they "defended my freedoms" I don't care who they are I will say other wise because it's not true and they are not "freeing" Iraq either. It will be the exact same.

[IrateCitizen]

14. What he was participating, while not defending his country, was noble...

He was defending those to the left and right of him. Unless you've been in the situation to choose between the bad choice of defending those to your left and right when you know the cause is immoral, or refusing to participate in an immoral cause but fail to defend those to your left and right, you'll never know how soul-wrenching a choice it is.

BTW -- I was an Army Reserve 1LT, Engineers, and I chose the latter by filing for CO. And that choice still haunts me every single day.

Unless you've walked a mile in someone's shoes, don't pretend to lecture them on the morality of their choices when you know nothing about them.

[mike_c]

22. I presume you'll extend that same noblese...

...to the Iraqis defending themselves against his occupation, and to all who fight for any cause regardless of its merit, because, in essence, you're saying that the act of fighting is itself ennobling. As long as a soldier stands his or her ground, the cause is just? I thought that argument-- and its corollary about just following orders-- was dispelled at Nuremberg.

[11 Bravo]

38. I won't presume to speak for Irate Citizen ...

but for myself, I absolutely extend the same sentiments to those Iraqis who are fighting to defend their homeland. (Although most of the dead combatants are not Iraqis. The majority of them come from outside of Iraq.) But please, get it straight, Slick. I do NOT defend or support this war. I believe it to be illegitimate. I grieve for the innocent Iraqi civilians who have perished in the name of Bush's macho "War President" posturing. Where you lose me is when you start tossing around terms like "war criminal". You fling the word "Nuremburg" around like it's a party favor. But grunts go where they are sent. Unless you advocate the loss of civilian control over our military, what exactly is your point? Has every GI since 1966 been a war criminal, or just those who were shot at and returned fire? If that's your contention, then convene the tribunal. I'll defend myself, thanks.

on edit: typo

[mike_c]

40. WHY are they not war criminals...?

Just because you don't like the taste of that, or because you think it's not true? Do you agree with the following?

1) People who participate in crimes are criminals, e.g. someone who takes part in a bank robbery is complicit, even if they don't hold the bag or take the money from the till themselves. Note too that the law is rather explicit regarding the matter of ignorance. Do you agree with this statement?

2) The war against Iraq is a war of aggression. It is not a war in defense of the U.S. or its treaty obligations to an ally. Do you agree or disagree?

3) Wars of aggression are crimes against humanity. This is a matter of definition, actually, since the U.N. Charter, to which we are signatories and which was developed from the Nuremberg findings, specifically defines wars of aggression as crimes against humanity.

4) The war against Iraq is a war crime. This follows from (3). Do you agree with this assertion? If not, why not?

5) Particpants in the war against Iraq are war criminals. This follows from (1) if (4) is true, unless you have some reason to grant special exception from criminal responsibility to the military. However, this WAS decided at Nuremberg-- individual soldiers are culpable for participation in war crimes, whether they are actually prosecuted or not. (on edit-- and whether they were simply following orders or not, even if those orders were legal in their onwn country.) Do you disagree with this?

I'd be really surprised if you can honestly disagree with the first three statements, and the last two follow from those.

Finally, I'm not interested in name calling, so lets debate the issue but refrain from being ugly, ok?

[Raksha]

36. Isn't it always that way?

"He was defending those to the left and right of him."

It is irrelevant in this context how he got there and whether he should be there at all. Once he's there and actually being shot at, what other options are there? He has to defend his own life and the lives of his comrades.

It's wrong to blame the soldier in the line of fire for defending himself. I don't think the Nuremberg laws were meant to be applied in that way.

[mike_c]

43. then you would excuse the Nazis who marched across Europe...

...because each and every one of them, ultimately, was in that precise position? Kill or be killed by the people fighting to defend their countries from invasion?

[doublethink]

5. I remember your original post on this.

My prayers are with you, your friend, and all our veterans of this war. We must keep speaking out against this illegal war and bring our boys home sooner than later. Again prayers, Peace.

[KharmaTrain]

6. I Just Posted Something Similar...Iraqi Vets Are Going To Need Us

There's an Iraqi vet in my neighborhood whose trying to adjust to a very uncertain life. He was called back when the invasion began...has been on two tours and may face a third later this year.

Just as you state, he's fully committed to his unit and the guys he's lived with for the past few years. This has nothing to do with politics...they didn't pick this war, they were just told to fight it, and that's what they're trying to do. But it's getting harder and harder. Sadly, sometimes misguided criticism from the "left" or of the morality of their mission is blown out of proportion...the emotions of all of us are very raw when it comes to this issue.

The troops are in the crosshairs of a no-win dirty war of profit & opportunity. They're stuck in attempting to legitimize what is now obvious to all but the most kool-aided was a war based on lies and deceptions. The "grunts" are stuck with having to "toe the company line" on the outside even if they have second thoughts on the inside.

I hope you keep in contact with this young man, he's going to face the real battles of his life ahead...trying to adjust back into a society that really will never understand what he went through. We've got a generation of PTSD and other mentally and physically scared men and women coming back who will need us to stand strong and support them for the rest of their lives.

[FreedomAngel82]

28. I worry about that myself

I hope we are prepared as well. Bush is doing nothing to help them by cutting VA benefits and not helping with therapy with emotional issues. 60% of our vets returning have some forum of brain damage. I just hope we're all prepared. Especially when they find out more that they've been lied to by Bush. Some of them still think they're doing a noble deed.

[KharmaTrain]

30. It's Truly Bi-Polar

I missed the Vietnam draft by one year, but I sure didn't miss the war...and still have a part of it in my life. I knew many who went to Nam and saw them struggle over the years to reconcile what happened. There wasn't really any treatment for PTSD...or much reliable data...in those days other than to call it "shell-shock" and expect it'll "wear off".

Sadly for some Vietnam and their experiences could never leave them...leading many to lives of drug abuse, homelessness, alienation and early deaths. This was and is the real tragedy of this ugly war, and thanks to the evil regime in our White House, we're about to go through this whole mess again...and with bigger problems.

I'm already donating money to Iraqi vet groups (Gold Star Moms is a fave right now) as well as increasing our donations to various Vietnam Veterans groups. We can't turn our backs on these people no matter how "kool-aided" they sound right now. Let's help them use the truth to set themselves free, not as a weapon to alienate them.

Cheers

[greatauntoftriplets]

8. What horrible news....

I can understand your anger. Good wishes to your young lieutenant friend.

[soup]

9. Long road ahead.

May he find the strength and support he will need along the way.

I'm so sorry.

[Alizaryn]

10. I am so sorry

Those are some powerful words.
Please consider getting them out as a letter to the editor,(or something along those lines).

[myrna minx]

13. This is so sad.

My best wishes to him and his family. :hug:

[sinkingfeeling]

15. It breaks my heart to hear or see these terrible injuries inflicted on

our young men and women. The horrors of this war will be with us for a very long time. Wish him a speedy recovery from all of us when you see him.

[jedicord]

16. The hardest thing for my husband, a Desert Storm vet, ...

to take is the knowledge that these guys are fighting an unnecessary war. He knows, from experience, that they feel what they are doing is noble. He also knows, from experience, that they will come home and the majority will realize they were caught up in a sham.

If they come home.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[malmapus]

18. I'm sorry to hear this

My thoughts and prayers are with your friend the Lt. He has started on a very long journey, and I hope he pulls through and manages to find himself home again.

Finding myself in a near similar situation as you did at the wedding.

My fiancee's father has been dating this wonderful lady for sometime, she's pretty amazing that my fiancee and her sisters took to her at once. But yeah, we all at a get together for July 4th at her place. When I got there I met her son who's a few years younger than I am. She introduced us, and said he was in the Navy. I tried to steer clear of Iraq, cause found out he was there already. Then he told me he just got his orders to go back at the begining of next month.

He's a Sea Bee, but apparently they're being used now in convoy escorts.

I really didn't know what to say (as I always hated to be reminded myself of upcoming deployments), I pretty much stumbled over "good luck."

[Dogmudgeon]

20. If you will, please thank him for me

Thank him for serving in a military that has been treated little better than a dog's chew toy by our Wise and Beloved Leader.

Thank him for doing a job I wouldn't have the guts or savvy to do.

Thank him for putting on the uniform and taking up the burden of the civilians who understand and appreciate his service, and for saving the craven asses of the cowards who are not fit to be spoken of in the same sentence as him.

--p!

[progressoid]

23. Jesus......

......

[cry baby]

24. When you see him, please tell him that there are many people

here at DU thinking about him. Please thank him for his service to our country for me.

So sad he even had to go and put his life on the line for these criminals.

[FreedomAngel82]

26. I'm sorry for your friend

And I HATE what Bush is doing to them!!!! And cutting VA benefits too! :mad:

[DeepModem Mom]

31. Sadly kicking.

[Stephanie]

33. Oh lord that is sad

That is just horrible. I'm so sorry to hear that. Give him a kiss for me.

[smomfr]

34. The wounded.

I was a medic at U.S.A.F. Hosp. Clark from 1966 ´til 1968. We took care of many wounded G.I.s from all branches of the military coming from Viet Nam (we were close). Whenever I see the casualty numbers from the Iraq thing I remember many of the wounded boys we took care of would have been better off dead. It was all over for the K.I.A.s but the suffering for many of the wounded was just begining. Support them.

[Tim4319]

35. I read your original post. I remember reading about your encounter

with the young man. I am so sorry to hear that. I have a younger cousin over there, and all I can do is hope and pray he is doing well.

Again, I am very sorry to hear about that. I am glad you did not head out to Walter Reed in the state you are in. I would not like to look on the news and see a DU family member being hauled away in handcuffs.

[ninkasi]

37. I'm so sorry to hear about your friend

He faces a long, difficult road to recovery. I hope he has all the love and support he needs to heal. One thing I've heard, that just makes me so sad, is that often, when the ones who are injured, like him, come back, they feel guilt at leaving their brothers and sisters still in combat.

He did not choose to start this war, but went where he was ordered. He will need a great deal of support, which I hope he receives, as well as the injured and maimed on both sides. This whole thing is just so truly tragic, and the biggest tragedy of all is that the chickenhawks who started it will never lose a night's sleep over the harm they have done.

[w8liftinglady]

39. We need to take tis as one of our key causes

I have always maintained tha democrats need to focus on the soldiers and survivors,while opposing the War.I am speaking from experience when I say that there isn't enough services for our wounded soldiers.Our government chose to close one of the larger VA hospitals here in Texas.Now,our VA in Dallas is completely overwhelmed.
Thank your friend for his sacrifice.His goverment sure won't.

[Orsino]

41. I respect their oath.

It's the same one I took, after all, but the troops in Iraq are not defending us. They are participating in a fiasco that endangers us, as I did to a lesser extent during GW1.

I'll have a lot of sympathy for anyone who's given a limb (or a life) because of that oath, but I'll have even more for any service member who realizes just how profoundly he and we have been duped.

[seabeyond]

42. hey bravo, please from us, tell him

we love him. are thinking of him. sorry he will be going thru this pain, and thank him. he does have support from us. we do value him. ah the tear. your post just got me in the sadness. it has been a sad day, realizing all over how bush has hurt this nation in different ways. your aquaintance is just another, another way. i am sorry