Dear Duers; My take on the whole ball of wax

[justinsb]

Dear Duers;

Much of what I post here gets little or no reply, and some of it meets outright hostility. I believe that perhaps I should explain who I am and why I am here. I am an American expat living in Canada. I have always been a progressive, progressive enough that Clinton was too right wing for me, and when Bush was elected I decided that the country and I were moving in different directions. I didn’t believe then, and I don’t believe now that the US will ever be progressive enough for my tastes. Canada is my home now (and will remain so) but I still care enough about Americans that I help when and where I can.

That being said, living outside the US has given me a new perspective on the world and on the US. The primary thing holding Canada back from becoming even more progressive is US pressure and occasional veiled threats. I have heard the same thing from citizens of many other countries – the UK, Australia, Brazil, Italy, and Venezuela to name but a few. So, my interest in the US becoming more progressive is stronger now than it was before I left. I have 3 methods of approaching this, simultaneously:

1) Support progressive candidates and causes in the US when and where I can, this means progressive candidates – not just anyone with a D after their name, I will not waste my time or my vote on people who are not really going to help the situation, just because they are more progressive than Stalin (or Bush).

This, I’ve been told, may violate rule #1 - 1.Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office ...

2) Boycott: I do not, when I can avoid it, buy US products and services. The reality is that Americans tend to become more progressive when economic times are bad (say the 1930s and 1970s) and less progressive when times are good (say the 1980s and mid to late 90s). It’s not that I want to starve Americans or that I have no sympathy, but I also have sympathy for the people of Iraq and Venezuela who are suffering from the programs and methods of a government they did not vote for, have no say in, and have no peaceful means of changing.

3) Inform: Most of the news I post here is from outside the US – from Canada, the UK, Al Jazeera, etc., The US media is a crock and I’m hopeful that if Americans become better informed about the world outside the US, and the perception of the US by the world that it will help lead to change.

Some of what I post may also violate rule 3: 3.
Content: Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements.

But, I cannot avoid telling the truth as I see it out of fear that it might be considered “divisive”. If this is not a viewpoint that is wanted or welcome, please let me know and I’ll find other avenues. However, unless it becomes clear that my input is not wanted I’ll continue to post as I see fit even if it is greeted by anger and/or silence.

Peace,
Justin

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. Welcome to DU

Seems to me you'll fit right in here.


http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[justinsb]

4. Thanks, some days seem better than others

but thanks for the vote.

[rainy]

2. Thanks Justin, keep sending the info. It does get through

I feel the same way about blindly supporting any Democrat just because they are dems. I'm way more progressive then to do that. I support strong third parties.

[justinsb]

5. Thanks for the vote of confidence Rainy n/t

[ironman202]

3. i'm not particularly hostile to you

but running away is not the solution. Believe me, I've had one foot out the door on numerous occasions as well, but in the end, I just can't do it. I will not surrender my country to these assholes. Other than that, I wish you well.

[justinsb]

6. We each have to make our own choices

for me, it wasn't just these particular assholes. I thought Clinton was an asshole too. IMO with few exceptions the assholes have been running the show since WWII. I'm much more comfortable here, and I'm happy that this is where my children are growing up. It was not 'running away' in my mind, but rather finding a place that felt like home. I wish you well also, good luck.

[Toots]

22. When a person moves from a bad neighborhood to a good neighborhood

do you also consider that running away? One has to think first about their families and America is becomming a less family friendly place. A culture of violence and criminal activity is the norm. I don't consider it running away i consider it looking out for the best interest of one's family. Remember Canada takes care of it's citizens, America does not.

[justinsb]

38. It's not even about that for me

I love the neighborhood I'm in. If it started to go 'bad' I'd take to the streets to fix it (and most of my neighbors would join me). It's more (for me) about leaving a place where you know you are never really going to 'fit in'. As strange as it may sound, I always felt out of place in the US, and almost instantly felt right at home here.

[yurbud]

7. a lot of people here always have a toe pointed toward Canada--

we all just have different points when we decide it's time to bolt.

Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[justinsb]

9. Just so you know, bolting won't work

the process took me about 18 months, and immigration is bussier than it used to be. You should at least familiarize yourself with the process if you think it's a possibility.

[yurbud]

12. thanks for the tip

Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[justinsb]

63. No problem

most think it's easier than it is. On 9-11 Canadian border guards turned away 25 thousand Americans who decided to immigrate that morning.

[Greyhound]

8. Another voice of support. I'm with you philosophically, wish I was

physically (in Canada). I think running away is the only sensible answer. I don't see the current crop of citizens rising up to stand against the fascists. In fact, I mostly see the same ol' selfish agenda pushing that has gone on for 50 or more years. :shrug:

[justinsb]

10. Thanks for the vote of confidence

for me it wasn't so much running away. I never felt at home with American culture - from the gun culture to the general attitude and outlook on the world. I never for a moment felt like I was 'mainstream'. To me there is a difference between running away from a fight and leaving a place where you are, and likely always will be, a minority.

[canadianbeaver]

11. Yup.....correct greyhound1966

I know where you are coming from Justin....when will it ever end...and will Canada be as free and progressive in the future? I for one hope so...and I guess thats all I have right now..is HOPE!!!

[justinsb]

13. I hope so too

right now the biggest threat is from the US, veiled threats from the present administration, the fact that the US consumes like mad and Canada has alot of resources left (just wait until the US realizes that the situation with fresh, unpolluted water is nearly as bad as the situation with oil) and the fact that alot of ultra conservative and nutjob religious groups, having 'won' in the US are now dumping money into the coffers of Canadian crackpots. But, people here seem alot more informed and educated and come from, literally, all over the world. My city alone has 130+ distinct ethnic groups. People from India, China, Brazil, etc., are not as prone to falling for right wing religious spew.

[canadianbeaver]

17. aren't alot of our resources already in the hands of the US....?

Will our own politicians sell us out?....it is possible....any suggestions then? I am full of HOPE...but that doesn't stop the madness!!!!

[justinsb]

20. Remains to be seen

given the reaction anytime Paul Martin goes along with the US these days, they might not. The US has some access to resources under NAFTA but they still have to pay for them and if it came down to it all we'd have to do is pull out of NAFTA.

[canadianbeaver]

25. wish we would pull out......of the US' ass that is......

I am sorry for the crass humour but I am not a happy camper...

[justinsb]

28. Council of Candians?

I'm guessing you're familiar. I think they need to get bigger.

[canadianbeaver]

37. where do we start?.......

I have thought about this for years....went no where with it as I did not know how to start...who to trust, etc...I am sure a lot of others have tried and been cast as child molesters, wackos, dangerous to national security, etc.(Ruby ridge)...We are so controlled by so very few..and unfortunately the ones in control have the biggest guns...to silence the few...I was thinking about drastic measures..not violence but peaceful protests (Ghandi)...some will die, for their views, and will anyone care?...I want to yell to everyone "WAKE UP"...but I feel all they will see is a TINFOIL HAT and someone making waves...LUNATIC

It would truly have to be UNDERGROUND...

[justinsb]

40. Fortunately, here we don't need to be that underground

The NDP and the Greens both need higher profiles in Parliament. The Conservatives have to be kept from power at all costs. At least here we have the NDP, the Greens, the Council of Canadians and even alot of allies in the Liberal party.

[canadianbeaver]

41. I voted green....couldn't vote NDP..second choice....

I had to be true to my heart...and I must say...I really don't know much about the council of canadians but will take a look....thanks

[justinsb]

44. the Council of Candians

http://www.canadians.org/

Founded in 1985, The Council of Canadians is Canada's pre-eminent citizens' watchdog organization, comprised of over 100,000 members and more than 70 Chapters across the country.




Strictly non-partisan, the Council lobbies Members of Parliament, conducts research, and runs national campaigns aimed at putting some of the country's most important issues into the spotlight: safeguarding our social programs, promoting economic justice, renewing our democracy, asserting Canadian sovereignty, advancing alternatives to corporate-style free trade, and preserving our environment.




The Council does not accept money from corporations or governments, and is sustained entirely by the volunteer energy and financial assistance of its members.




Join us today and work with more than 100,000 Canadians from across the nation building stronger communities and a just Canada.

[canadianbeaver]

46. thank you truly Justin......I think you just got another person to...

become a member....I am really amazed that I haven't found this before....prioraties I guess...no time like the present eh?..

[justinsb]

51. Well, everyone has to find it sometime

when and where will vary - I'm sure that they'll get bigger and stronger over time. Glad you've found them.

[justinsb]

64. .

[Ravenseye]

14. FLAME ON

Just kidding. I hear what you're saying, but I have a couple responses.

1) While I hear and feel what you're saying here I think it's a difference between revolutionary change and evolutionary change. The conservative shift in this country didn't happen overnight in late 2000. It started in 1964 and took forty years. Candidates didn't suddenly go from being 'realisitcally progressive' to 'radically conservative' in time for the 1966 Republican primaries. Right now for us it's 1965. I understand those who want to strike back and win it all next year. It's not going to happen though. If we only support truly progressive candidates, by your definition, then there is a better than even chance that many of the most vile Senators will be reelected next year, including Santorum. While we have to fight the battles we can win, and we have to fight who to fight for, I'll take pro-life Casey over pro-idiocy Santorum any day of the week and I'll donate money to make it happen.

2) I'm not sure if I fully agree with the progressivity corresponding to economic times argument. I think there are some coincidences, but I think the poor economic times of the late seventies helped lead to the conservative Reagan revolution. Economic times, if they're bad, tend to hurt whoever is in power. So by that argument, then we want them now right? Well I live here. Economic times will be hard for me since I own a small business. Also if you have sympathy for people in Iraq, keep in mind not all of us are dissaociated from it. Some of the money that I earn here in America goes to paying a Canadian who owns a house in Baghdad so my Grandmother there in Iraq has a place to live. We're all interconnected. Also if America's economy tanks, it'll probably take the rest of the world with it, particularly Canada who is our largest trading partner.

3) You're spot on here. Why read the U.S. papers when the British ones are far more interesting. Also they use big words which make American papers look like they were written for fourth graders.

Anyway. Tell the truth as you see it. Who gives a fuck if somebody thinks you're divisive. Your viewpoint is just as valid as theirs, unless someone made them god and didn't tell me.

[justinsb]

16. Thanks for the reply

as to your responses I'll stick to 1 and 2 so this post doesn't rattle on too much.

1) When Clinton was elected in 92 I thought, for a moment, that we had a genuine progressive, this turned out not to be the case and, IMO 92-00 was actually a loss for progressives. If conservatives stay in power things will continue to get worse and more and more Americans will look for a real alternative. There is no point in electing someone because they are the lesser of two evils if they are still evil. I will vote for people who I think will actually improve things.

2) As to the economy, I think you can draw a pretty straight line from the great depression to the new deal. I don't think it was coincidence. I don't think the argument can be made that it hurts Iraqi's as much as the US when I refuse to buy American products. As I said, it's not that I don't have sympathy, but the US declared a war. I'm not a violent person but there is a war on and I won't support those who started it or send dollars that will end up fueling the military.

As for this "Also if America's economy tanks, it'll probably take the rest of the world with it, particularly Canada who is our largest trading partner." it's a myth. China and India are the markets the world is after now. There are other countries who are also rising as consumer markets. Most of what Canada exports is resource commodities: Agricultural products, oil, water, lumber, metals, energy - most of this I don't think the US will stop buying in the near future and China is waiting in line to start buying it if the US doesn't, China and India are already buying more and more of it.

Anyway, thanks for the comments.

Peace,
Justin

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[justinsb]

62. I think the neo-cons have been there for quite awhile

since at least Reagan, but they never had as much power as now before.

[European Socialist]

15. Good move-going to Canada

Will they take a 50 year old unemployed guy.

[justinsb]

18. Depends on what you do? What skills you have etc.,

There are alot of doors, it's just a matter of finding the one that's right and having a good pair of scissors for all the red tape.

[European Socialist]

30. red tape

Any places with labor shortages up there-where you can work without being a citizen.

[justinsb]

33. Again it depends on what you do.

You can certainly check job sites (there are dozens) and apply for things. Canada has a "green card" program much like the US.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[justinsb]

21. I think so too

If someone decided I was too divisive and gave me the boot or censored my post, that would be their right I suppose, but I won't spend alot of time trying to figure out what is too 'divisive' or 'extreme'.

[G_j]

23. at least for me

you are welcome here. I appreciate your sincere attempt to communicate and inform.

[justinsb]

24. Thanks and..

even if it seems inflamatory at times, it's not meant to be (I get pissed from time to time like anyone else) but the reality is, if I really didn't give a crap, I wouln't be here at all.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[justinsb]

35. I am building a community

on Yahoo actually (see signature) for progressives from around the world to talk (if not talk back) Media here, and in the UK (except for the tabloids) doesn't generally take sides unless there is an actual crime involved, even then they try to stay objective.

[paula777]

26. Hey Justin -

I so wanted to move to Canada when Bush was elected but couldn't afford it. Did you find it difficult to find a job when you got there? Great post by the way.

[justinsb]

31. Here, like the US

most good jobs aren't found through the paper, or sites like workopolis, they are found by networking. It was difficult at first, but the more people I know the better things get. I think alot of it also depends on what you do. I'm a web guy and arrived just as several dot coms went under here.

Feel free to email me, or PM me and I can give you better advice based on what you are looking for. It is not an easy or a cheap process but it's been well worth it to me. I am far happier, and less stressed than at any point living in the US and my children LOVE it here.

Thanks Paula :hi:

P.S. I'm now laying the groundwork to open a bookstore.

[canadianbeaver]

39. Good luck with the book store.....Location?....n/t

[justinsb]

42. Toronto, can't give you an actual address yet.

soon though I hope =)

[rumpel]

27. What this country does affects the whole world. The PNAC agenda is global

so we would be amiss if we do not care and join progressives in other countries, whether naturalized or native.

I also have posts people either don't see or respond. It is okay, there are so many posts that posts move on to the next page..

Sometimes it is information overload...

[justinsb]

32. I understand that too

about information overload. I just wanted to lay things out and make sure that I wasn't wasting my time. I actually run a email group (see signature) that is meant as a meeting spot for progressives from various countries. :hi:

[Orsino]

34. Welcome.

I hope to be a an expat in Canada w/in the next couple of years. Before it all goes kablooey.

[justinsb]

36. It's a good place

are you actually in the process? (it can be quite long and tedious) It's soo worth it though.

[Orsino]

65. Not really.

Just waiting for the property to sell, then it's off to the Great White North. We believe we're very emplyable, and that'll put us on the fast track to citizenship.

[justinsb]

66. Hopefully, be prepared though

my immigration took 18 months and that was the fast track at the time.

[pitohui]

43. not seen your posts before

yet i understand your dilemma regarding criticism of non-progressive democrats

on a thread where we discussed tenncare i worried my mention that bradensen is a democrat might break the rules

but if a man's policy is killing people, he should not be shielded from criticism because he is a democrat

sometimes the truth is disruptive

no black and white

[justinsb]

45. Thanks and I agree n/t

[enigmatic]

47. I'm an expat, too

Moved here a few months before 9/11; talk about timing..

It's eye-opening to see just how much damage W has done to the good will of Canadians up here; it's heartbreaking, frankly. And although I'll always love my big, beautiful mess of a country, I doubt I'll ever move back, even if the Democrats regain control in 2006.

[justinsb]

50. I won't either

move back that is, regardless. I'm home now, more than I ever was in the US. I also don't think it's just Bush, I think Bush just pushed things over the edge.

[enigmatic]

53. I'm home, too

It "feels" right being here.

[nolabels]

49. Don't worry about it, everybody is guilty of something

The deal is stepping on the least amount toes when it happens for what ever reason.

The small footprint idea is more than a slogan or cliche

[justinsb]

52. Yes but

sometimes the truth needs to be told, toes or no toes.

[nolabels]

56. That is one of the better things here at DU

The wide array of views that even has a fair amount from other places or countries.

Being ethnocentric is only good for rich locals.

Btw We are not all sheeple down here and I got over needing replies from others a while back. I do like to understand and listen to people when ever possible.

If it looks and sounds good it must be okay, It's artwork in perspective(s) (keep your humor about you, it may be brain surgery but since we mostly don't have license for the practice, they can't sue)

[justinsb]

57. lol...ok

I know not all Americans are sheeple. But I also know that a good many Americans are too insulated , largely due to a lazy, complacent and corporate media, and when I say things that are common knowlege here, or things that would be obvious here many (even here at DU) do not understand what I am saying, or what it implies (with it being obvious here, I frequently make the mistaken assumption that the implications too are obvious).

I do not mean to sound superior or condescending, although I fear that is sometimes how it is taken, it's just a breakdown in communication because of different cultures, experiences and access to reliable media,

[nolabels]

58. Just figure where it comes from when you criticize it

The "complacent and corporate media" do it to put food on the table.

We may or may not of had a complacent media before but the corporate end need for it is quite obvious now. They would never survive with out it. The more MSM gets marginalized more they lose control. The corporate media will often come to truth when they loose enough of the audience they want to control.

I understand about the them being insulated, but they need the audience to be happy, if the audience isn't happy the corporation might not get to do what they want. The overblown reactions demonstrated by Republicans are even part of it consciously or unconsciously. They do this by making people who are uninformed to think they know better, into thinking this is the biggest outrage out there (which or course it isn't), and of course then they can just blow it all off

Btw. you don't seem pompous to me, laying out the wood is how it needs to be done sometimes

[justinsb]

61. Well I'm glad that I don't come off as pompous

As to the media...another day for that perhaps :evilgrin:

[mattclearing]

54. This is a great post.

It's important that those on the outside reach out to us. It is nice to know that while we have trouble being heard here in the U.S., that we are part of an international majority bent on peaceful cooperation.

[justinsb]

55. Thanks, and you're right

People here, or at least the majority of them, are part of a international 'super majority" bent on peaceful cooperation. The anti-US sentiment, as expressed in western countries, is not just about Iraq. Iraq is just a symptom. It is about the US not only refusing to get on board, but in fact working hard against things like Kyoto, the International Criminal Court, the UN and other international endeavors meant to improve the situation for everyone on the planet and the US working overtly and covertly to suppress and prevent progressive reforms in countries around the world.

[Lannes]

59. Noone thought Germans who left their country in the 30s

Were wrong to do so,quite the contrary.We arent quite there yet but we are getting close.Im considering leaving myself if things get past the point of no return.Im happy for you and your family.

[justinsb]

60. Thanks,

I actually haven't run into too much critisizm for leaving - more questions about how to do it than anything else and really. Also it wasn't just about Bush or current circumstances, I don't think the US will ever be as progressive as I am (at least not until it's too late to do much) but ultimately, yes, I left the burning building - if there are some still in the building who want to critisize me for it, so be it.