Osama Bin Laden is as representative of Islam...

[Modem Butterfly]

...as Adolf Hitler was representative of Xianity.

Discuss.

[ulysses]

1. perfect analogy.

Other comparisons also apply - maniacs who take advantage of downtrodden, hopeless people by promising to make their lives better and smite the ones doing the trodding.

[evermind]

2. Jim Jones, David Koresh, may be good analogies too perhaps (n/t)

[H2O Man]

3. Respectfully disagree.

Hitler was a nationalist, promoting an ecomonic and political agenda. I would strongly suggest reading "Imperial Hubris" for a clearer understanding of what Usama bin Laden stands for.

[Grooner Five]

4. OK, I'll discuss

I think having the knee-jerk reaction to smear Christianity any time Islam's role in global terrorism is being discussed is both counterproductive and disingenuous. Right now, an overwhelming amount of violence is being conducted in the name of Islam, often with the full support of mosques and holy men. Dianne Feinstein's recent comments were not off the mark.

Pretending that a similar problem exists in modern Christianity overlooks the moderation in that set of religions that Islam needs to emulate. There just is no comparison.

[Modem Butterfly]

5. Pretending a similar problem exists in modern Xianity?

There has been an enormous amount of violence done in the name of Xianity. But it is disingenuous to suggest that this violence is not typical of Xianity while simultaneously claiming that violence in the name of Islam is typical of Islam. Consider just how many churches have endorsed anti-choice violence, either openly or tacitly. Then explain to me how these churches aren't really Xian, while the mosques and Imams who endorse Islamic violence are really Muslim.

[Grooner Five]

7. Can you link to an example..

...of any mainstream Christian religious figures endorsing violence against abortion providers?

I ask, because there are a multitude of examples of influential Islamic clerics endorsing terrorism as being within the purview of Islam. And as Dianne Feinsten said recently, many mosques are becoming enablers of the fanatics in their midst. Can you provide evidence of a similar trend within Christianity?

Apart from all that, I have a hard time comparing the tiny and sporadic violence against abortionists from fringe Christians to the widespread attacks in the name of Islam we've seen recently. Can you, with a straight face, compare some individual whack job offing an abortion doctor to the events we saw on 9-11?

[K-W]

9. Do not churches support Bush? Is he not a terrorist?

The fact is that when christians get motivated to kill poeple they understand that through thier religion just as much as muslims who are motivated to kill people understand that through thier religion.

[Grooner Five]

13. Sorry, I'm just not that extreme in thought.

We've got the issue of Islam using government to oppress people that makes any Christian involvement in our government seem like a weak joke.

Think they'll put gay marriage up for debate in Iran or Saudi Arabia, they way they did in Spain? Christianity in the West has moderated in the mainstream. Islam has not, and it's silly to pretend otherwise.

[Modem Butterfly]

16. Well, no, we have the issue of some MUSLIMS using government

And we have the same issue here in the US with Xians. Why can't I legally hold office in several states? Because I am actively oppressed by Xians via the government.

[Grooner Five]

21. How do they oppress you from holding office?

You'll have to elaborate on that one a little.

[Modem Butterfly]

37. Here's a handy-dandy link to a bunch of state constitutions

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/StateConstitutions.htm

Arkansas says I'm not competent to hold office or testify in court because I'm an atheist. Maryland says I can't testify or be on a jury because I'm an atheist. Massachusetts says only Xians are guaranteed equal protection under the law. Mississippi, Texas and North Carolina say I can't hold state office. Penssylvania bars me from state office and state employment. I can't run for Governor of South Carolina (or Lt. Gov apparently), nor can I hold office or a state job in Tennessee.

[Grooner Five]

54. There's also a law on the books in Florida

which says that a guy has to run a few hundred feet in front of a horseless carriage with a lantern. So what?

Using anciant American laws to pretend you are being oppressed is pretty disingenuous.

[Modem Butterfly]

61. Ancient American law?

How old are you, anyway?

Just because a law is old doesn't mean it is no longer in effect. We had an anti-fornication law in Georgia that was 170 years old. It didn't stop the prosecution of a heterosexual couple engaged in consensual sodomy in 1996. That case had to go all the way to the supreme court to be overturned.

[Grooner Five]

74. And you compare that...

..to the widespread misery caused by Sharia law in Islamic countries? Again, I say - get real.

When homosexuals are drawn and quartered in Iran, what Supreme Court can they go to for having it overturned?

[Modem Butterfly]

93. Being left to rot in jail is no big deal, right?

That's horseshit. Religion causes misery, whether it's Islam or Xianity or any other religion. But if you're going to claim that the misery caused by one religion is typical of that religion, then it is hypocrisy to claim that the misery caused by another religion is atypical of that religion.

[Grooner Five]

98. I can compare degrees, though

Can't you?

If you really see equivalence between what happens in Iran and what happens in Georgia, then you're not really being honest with yourself.

[Modem Butterfly]

104. If you think 15 years in jail for a consensual act is no big deal

Then I don't think there's much more to discuss on the matter. You seem to be hunky-dory with the misery caused in the name of Xianity while condemning the misery caused in the name of Islam. That's a strange argument to make, IMHO.

[Grooner Five]

111. I thought you said the Supreme Court overturned it

What such resource is open to the homosexuals pulled apart by horses or women stoned for adultery (while men walk free) in Iran under Islamic Sharia law?

[Modem Butterfly]

114. It takes awhile to get to the Supreme Court

:eyes:

[Grooner Five]

120. Sure. But at least the option is there.

[Modem Butterfly]

126. For a price.

[Grooner Five]

129. The cost of a phone call to the ACLU?

Or any number of rights-based organizations allowed to exist and thrive under our Western government?

[Modem Butterfly]

131. The ACLU can't take every case

And in any event, rights groups can't pay all of your expenses. And of course, the fact that there are civil rights groups does not absolve the state of the responsibility for lousy laws.

[Grooner Five]

137. Maybe not...

But it makes our system incomparable to Iranian Sharia law, doesn't it?

[Modem Butterfly]

138. It also makes our system incomparable with Italy and Japan and...

...on and on and I'm not going to waste the bandwidth.

:eyes:

[Grooner Five]

140. What you mean is that you've run out of responses.

Fair enough.

[Modem Butterfly]

143. ROFLMAOPIMP!

:rofl:

[K-W]

24. Extreme? You think reality is extreme?

Bush is a terrorist. He is the commander and chief of an army that uses terrorism and a foriegn policy structure that supports terrorism around the world.

You are basically arguing that the reason the US is more culturally developed than the middle east is because christianity is better than Islam, the level of historical ignorance neccessary to make such an argument is staggering.

If you want to know why muslim societies have not become as civilized as our society, go learn about the comparitive history of the regions and peoples.

[Grooner Five]

36. Christianity isn't better than Islam

It's just more liberal and modern, and not as pervasive in Western government. Islam needs to go through the same changes, IMO.

[K-W]

48. You are describing differences between cultures, not religions.

The bible didnt change between the crusades and Martin Luther King.

What we are talking about is civilization. Yes, there are many parts of this world that need to be more civilized. I would argue every square inch of this planet needs to be more civilized or we are all doomed. The US, while remarkably civilized in some ways, is still engaged in barbaric foriegn policy supported by a great number of christians.

There is a problem in the muslim world. The problem is poverty, the problem is tyranny, the problem is conflict. And when you look at the causes of the poverty, tyranny and conflicts, you see the reason why that culture does not look more like ours.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K-W]

63. I never said they were, so what are you talking about?

"Islam is, in many ways, causing the misery in the Middle East. The same can not be said of Christianity and the West in this day and age."

Islam is not causing misery in the middle east. Islam happens to be the religion of the people who live in the middle east undergoing misery with very real tangible causes.

Again history shows your statmeent to be false, so you choose to ignore history.

[Grooner Five]

71. History that you can't seem to mention...

...when making your case. Unless you're still back with that Crusades nonsense.

My point in mentioning the hijackers on 9-11 was to counter your point that this Islamic terrorism was somehow connected to poverty. Nobody involved in that operation appeared to be anything less than very comfortable.

[K-W]

75. The crusades actually are a part of history,

And I am not making a case, you are the one making a case that Islam is the cause of violence, a case you have not made well.

My point in mentioning the hijackers on 9-11 was to counter your point that this Islamic terrorism was somehow connected to poverty. Nobody involved in that operation appeared to be anything less than very comfortable.

So you countered my point that terrorism was "somehow connected" to poverty(amongst other things) by showing that one specific aspect of terrorism didnt involve poor poeple.

Are you kidding me? Do you know what the word 'somehow' means?

[Grooner Five]

83. Islam is one large part of it, but not the whole thing

I agree with you that tyranny is also involved, and lousy government in the Middle East that provides little opportunity to their citizens.

As to your own case, bringing up ancient history and pretending it's relevant to Christians today doesn't do much for it.

[K-W]

96. I never said history was relevent to christians,

I said it was relevent to understanding the relationship of violence and religious beliefs in human culture.

[Grooner Five]

99. I'm sure it is.

And then what?

[brainshrub]

135. Here are two examples of Christians causing misery "In this day and age"

Here's a video where a priest blesses christian soldiers before they go forth and massacre their victims:

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/blog/2005/07/srebrenica_the_1.html
(Warning: Graphic footage)

And here is a notorious Christan Warlord who was just recently released:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050726/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_warlord

Fundamentalists have killed, and continue to kill, in every "day and age." Just because Christians haven't had a witch-burning in the last 200 years, doesn't mean that Christian fundamentalists of today aren't just as brutal as their Muslim counterparts.

[Kalish]

27. I agree

as much as I despise the right wing xtians, they've been forced to water down much of their ideology. In addition, they are far from the driving force in our culture as loud as they can be.

[K-W]

38. You dont seem to agree.

You are rightly pointing to the more civilized culture in the west where violence is not viewed the same way, and thus very few people justify violence through religion. When christianity exists in a society with different mores of violence, the christians reflect those mores.

Both Islam and Christianity can be used to justify violence, it is a proven fact.

[Grooner Five]

58. Yes, they can

But right now, only one religion is justifying it on a widespread and global basis. And it's not Christianity.

[K-W]

67. You are American violence, which proves you wrong. EOM

[Grooner Five]

70. You're not really making any sense. EOM

[K-W]

72. What are you confused about?

You claimed that Islam was the only religion being used to justify violence worldwide wich is obviously not true. The US is using violence worldwide and many christians and christian leaders beleive it to be justified by thier faith.

[Grooner Five]

73. US foreign policy is not based on Christianity.

That's the pretty enormous flaw in your reasoning.

[K-W]

76. I didnt say based I said justified. Stop twisting words. EOM

[Grooner Five]

86. People can support things for whatever they want, I guess

But the foreign policy actions of our government are not fueled by Christianity, and that's kind of the crux of the matter in debunking your rather odd assertions.

[K-W]

97. I never made that assertion, you are fabricating it.

I said justified.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

173. Finally!

[Tim4319]

11. The Ku Klux Klan did their deeds for Christianity!

The constantly preached how they were doing what they did, and still doing, in the name of God.

[Grooner Five]

14. Maybe

Fat lot of good it did them. They're a fringe pack of nobodies today.

[Modem Butterfly]

17. Only because folks like Morris Dees and the SPLC fought HARD

The last time the KKK was held accountable for lynching someone was in the early 80s in Alabama. That may seem like a long time ago if you were born after 1990, but to the rest of us it seems like yesterday...

[Grooner Five]

23. Agreed.

Maybe some Muslims can start opposing radical Islam and attaining the same success. I certainly hope so.

[Modem Butterfly]

25. That's already happening

What's your problem with Muslims anyway?

[Grooner Five]

32. It needs to happen more.

I have no problem with Muslims. I do have a problem with the large number of Muslim extremists getting cover from official channels in a way that doesn't happen with any other religion or government.

What's your problem with Christians, anyway?

[Tim4319]

33. Many Muslims have spoke out against radical Islam.

There were a some Muslims on C-SPAN, a few days ago, that did a whole segment on distancing themselves from what the radical Muslims are doing.

[Grooner Five]

39. And many more need to.

[K-W]

51. Why arent more christians condemning US aggression? EOM

[Grooner Five]

81. Lots are, of course.

But again, I must stress that US foreign policy is not done in the name of Christianity, and isn't really comparable to terrorist operations, anyway.

No multiple virgins in heaven are promised to our soldiers, are they?

[Modem Butterfly]

107. Many more are.

Just because you've chosen not be aware of them doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Tim4319]

28. I have to disagree a little.

The sheets are gone! They have been replaced with business suits. They are still here, they are just not as visible.

[Grooner Five]

34. Because you say so?

[H2O Man]

40. No, silly!

Because DUers are able to read the Southern Poverty Law Centers reports on hate groups.

[Tim4319]

46. No, actually because things are done daily.

They may not call themselves Klan anymore, but the many of the same principles apply. For example, The shooting death of an unarmed Kenneth B. Walker in Columbus, Georgia.

<<snip>>
Two weeks before Christmas, Kenneth Walker was shot to death by a Muscogee County sheriff’s deputy because he and three Columbus, Georgia companions were “driving while Black.”

Kenneth Walker was 39 years old. He was married to Cheryl and left behind three-year-old daughter Kayla. He was a college graduate; for the past 15 years he was an employee with Blue Cross Blue Shield.

http://www.advancementproject.org/dwb.html

This is just one example of why I say so!

[K-W]

30. It did them a great deal of 'good' for quite a while. EOM

[U4ikLefty]

175. George Bush...a "Christian". His "crusade" killed of over 100,000!!!

Jerry Falwell, leader of one of the largest "Christian" groups in the nation. He refered to 9/11 as "God's punishment"

[The Stranger]

6. Feinstein is a moron.

Only someone completely ignorant of Christianity's long and unbroken history of oppressing other minority religious groups -- including the use of hate-inspired warfare (i.e. "Crusades") and torture (i.e., the Spanish Inquisition) could possibly focus on Islam's violence.

Something about casting the first stone . . .

[Grooner Five]

8. Got anything that happened within like the last 600 years?

Thanks.

[K-W]

10. So you admit that you are selectively using history...

thats nice.

You can make any argument if you can exclude inconvenient facts.

[Grooner Five]

26. Using 600 year old example is a bit extreme, though.

Isn't it?

[K-W]

53. You have an odd idea of what is extreme.

There is nothing in the least bit extreme about using human history to understand humanity.

[Grooner Five]

80. "human history"

Is there another kind?

Anyway, I say it's a bit foolish to pretend stuff that happened in the 1200s is relevant today in any real sense. You're free to disagree, of course.

[K-W]

136. Of course there are other kinds.

Natural History, for instance.

Basically you are placing an arbitrary condition that historical facts past a certain period are irrelevent. There is no reason to think that at some point in time humanity uderwent some strange change that made all history before that irrelevent.

[Modem Butterfly]

12. Well gee, how about today?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/28/ira.statement/index.html

[Grooner Five]

18. The IRA fights for Irish Nationism

...thus being called the Irish Republican Army - fighting for the Irish Republic. Religion is incidental.

[Modem Butterfly]

20. Religion has nothing to do with Northern Ireland

:rofl:

Just so you know, the Taliban were all about Afghani nationalism and kicking out the Soviets. At least, that's what they told us when we supported them during the Reagan era.

[Grooner Five]

42. Does the IRA

..rule Ireland with Christian law? Come on, get real.

[Modem Butterfly]

43. No, Britain does

Duh.

[Grooner Five]

50. Britain rules Ireland with Christian law?

I'm really not following you. The Irish Republic rules itself with a Democracy, and Britain oversees the parliament in Northern Ireland. I don't think either system depends all that heavily on the tenets of Christianity.

[Modem Butterfly]

56. Ever heard of the Church of England?

The UK doesn't have separation of church and state. FYI. And Northern Ireland does not currently have home rule.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/northireland1.html

[Grooner Five]

60. Northern Ireland wont have home rule unless it's part of the Republic

And sure I've heard of the Church of England. It's about as relevant to British rule as the monarchy.

[Modem Butterfly]

62. Oh, okay. Maybe if you'd told the IRA sooner, they would have gone home..

It is disingenuous (to say the least!) to claim that the IRA was not fighting for religion while simultaneously claiming that the Taliban was. Both the Taliban and the IRA wanted a foreign occupying force out of their country, using religion as a primary argument, recruitment tool, and justificaiton.

[Grooner Five]

77. Um, the Taliban was the government there.

The IRA are considered criminals under the law in Ireland. See the difference?

[Modem Butterfly]

82. Um, the Soviets were the government there

Until the Mujahideen kicked them out. The Taliban took over in the aftermath.

The Mujahideen waged a war to rid themselves of an occupying force. They used guerilla and terroristic tactics against the occupiers and used religion to justify themselves and boost support from their countrymen. The IRA waged a war to rid themselves of an occupying force. They used guerilla and terroristic tactics against the occupiers and used religion to justify themselves and boost support from their countrymen.

[Grooner Five]

84. The Soviets were invaders, and not the government.

You simply cant compare the Taliban to the IRA with any credibility. The IRA fought for Irish independence, and then the people established a democratic Republic. No such republic occured in Afghanistan, because Islamic adherence prevented it.

[Modem Butterfly]

89. Huh. That's what the IRA said, too

You simply can't say that religion wasn't a factor in Northern Ireland while claiming that religion was the driving force in Afghanistan with any credibility. The mujahideen fought for Afghani independance and having gained it, the Taliban established religious rule. No such independance has occured in Northern Ireland.

[Grooner Five]

95. I can compare the resulting ruling structure, can't I?

IRA - sidlined fringe terrorists motivated by hatred of British

Taliban - rulers of entire country with Islamic Sharia law

Do you comprehend the difference?

[Modem Butterfly]

103. I think you're missing the point, Groaner

Both groups used religion as a means to an end. This does not mean terrorism is part of Islam anymore than it means terrorism is part of Catholicism.

[Grooner Five]

105. Sure it does.

In Islam, the justification that happens is a thousand times more evident and widespred.

[Modem Butterfly]

106. I think you're being willfully blind

Muslims have far from cornered the market on religious justification for violence.

[Grooner Five]

110. They're getting close to it, if not already there

The vast majority of religious violence in the world stems from or is connected to Islam. That's not really a debatable point.

[Modem Butterfly]

113. Only if you're woefully misinformed

Xians killed over 700 Muslims in ONE TOWN in Nigeria last year alone.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/05/23/nigeri10993.htm

Then on May 2 and 3, hundreds of well-armed Christians surrounded the town from different directions and killed around 700 Muslims. They also abducted scores of women, some of whom were raped. Both attacks were well-organized, and in both instances, the victims were targeted on the basis of their religion.

In South Africa, Xians killed 80 Muslims in one riot.

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/10808.htm

In India, religious violence has reached horrible new levels.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGASA200031999

[Grooner Five]

116. I'm informed fine

In Nigeria, Muslims and Christians are killing each other with reckless abandon, and it's kind of silly to try to pin it on either side.

As to the Hindus slaughtering Christians in India, that is certainly another example of religious fervor inspring violence - as it does moreso with Islam than any other religion.

If you were really informed, instead of using an anti-Christian agenda to shield Islam, you'd see that most religious conflicts on Earth revolve around Islamic fundamentalism.

[Modem Butterfly]

119. Apparently not.

900 people were killed in Nigeria last year, 700 by Xians.

Trying to tie Hindu violence in India to Islam really shows what a one-track mind you have on this issue.

... you'd see that most religious conflicts on Earth revolve around Islamic fundamentalism.

The only way to do that is to sit in the corner with your hands over your ears and eyes when the news comes on, rocking back and forth while quietly chanting, "It's all Islams fault. It's all Islams fault. It's all Islams fault."

[Grooner Five]

124. Yeah. And tens of thousands of Christians killed there by Muslims

More interesting news from Nigeria below. What's causing the strife there, I wonder...

http://za.today.reuters.com/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-07-26T140413Z_01_BAN650616_RTRIDST_0_OZATP-RELIGION-NIGERIA-SHARIA-20050726.XML

Nigerian city starts Sharia public transport system

By Mike Oboh

KANO, Nigeria (Reuters) - The northern Nigerian city of Kano on Tuesday launched a fleet of single-sex public transport vehicles to allow Muslims to comply with Islamic Sharia law. Thousands converged on the Pillars soccer stadium to see the vehicles, which include 100 ten-seater minibuses for women only, 100 motorcycle-taxis for men, and 500 three-wheeler microbuses that can carry only men or only women at any given time.

The motorcycles circled the pitch in a jubilant parade as thousands cheered and chanted "God is greater"."It's a good development for the ease of the transportation problem. It will also reduce social vices," said Umaru Suleiman, who was among the crowd.

The governor of Kano state said people who tried to use the vehicles without complying with the rules would face prosecution in Sharia courts.The state was one of 12 in predominantly Muslim northern Nigeria that adopted Sharia in 2000, shortly after the country returned to civilian rule after 15 years of military dictatorship.

The nation of 140 million people -- Africa's most populous by far -- is split about evenly between Muslims in the north and Christians in the south, although large minorities also exist in both regions. The introduction of Sharia alienated many Christians living in the northern states and sporadic inter-religious fighting has killed thousands. Many Muslim clerics in the north have been pushing for a tightening of Sharia observance.

[Modem Butterfly]

128. Naturally, the only solution is to slaughter 700 and rape hundreds more

:eyes:

I can't believe you are actually using public transport to justify the slaughter of 700 people.

[Grooner Five]

130. I'm using the implimentation of Sharia Law there...

to point out how Islamic fundamentalism fosters strife around the world, and makes itself incompatible with any other way of thinking - yours included.

[Modem Butterfly]

133. Ah. Those 700 Muslims who were slaughtered were ASKING for it. Got it.

:eyes:

"We had to kill them because they weren't Xians. If they'd just converted and started worshipping our god in the way that we do, they would be alive today. They brought this on themselves,"

[Grooner Five]

139. I suppose it's easier to warp my words around in to a sentiment

...that you would rather argue against. In Nigeria, Muslims slaughter Christians by the tens of thousands. Christians slaughter quite a few Muslims, as well. The root of this strife is the Muslim takeover of Nigerian government, and you would be hard pressed to show otherwise.

[Modem Butterfly]

141. Hyperbole and lies

Nigeria, Muslims slaughter Christians by the tens of thousands.

There were 900 killed in Nigeria last year. 700 were Muslims killed by Xians.

The root of this strife is the Muslim takeover of Nigerian government, and you would be hard pressed to show otherwise.

Pointing to the public bus system as proof of this is silly. For one thing, no one murder 700 people and rapes dozens more over a bus system. For another, the bus system actually came about over a year AFTER 700 Muslims were slaughtered by Xians.

And finally, the slaughter of 700 Muslims by Xians is not a really strong argument against Islamic law.

[Grooner Five]

146. Keep clinging like that dead Muslim thing like a life raft...

...if it makes you feel better, but you reveal yourself as a person blinded to the big picture by her own bigotry.

[Modem Butterfly]

152. Coming from you, I'll take that as a compliment

[U4ikLefty]

178. That is the funniest/weakest statement I've heard all day

in response to contradictory information.

[U4ikLefty]

177. Uh, neither the Taliban nor the IRA were recognized by the UN

try again

[H2O Man]

15. Could you list

the mainstream Christian leaders calling for the Bush administration to end his aggression in Iraq? Does Christianity -- even Bush's brand -- okay that war? I suspect that may be the modern example most important to this discussion.

[Grooner Five]

19. I believe the Pope opposed action in Iraq

Was he mainstream enough for you?

[H2O Man]

22. Perhaps I should

have requested an American religious leader .... make sense?

[Grooner Five]

41. Some sense, I guess

Like Islam, Christianity does cross national borders. But I believe these folks openly opposed the war:

http://www.ncccusa.org/

[H2O Man]

49. Waiting for your list .....

not a link to something else.

[Grooner Five]

52. You want more than the Pope and National Council of Churches?

Like who would satisfy you?

[K-W]

59. To backup your criticism of Islam

you need to basically list every christian leader in the world.

Most Muslim leaders have condemned the violence, you say it isnt enough.

So why dont you tell us what is enough, and then prove that enough christian leaders have condemned aggression.

[Grooner Five]

66. Let's have a list, then

of "most" of these Muslim leaders who condemn the terrorism, and more importantly, view it as outside the purview of Islam.

Waiting...


While we're waiting, I'll also remind you that the war in Iraq was not done in the name of Christianity, which makes your comparison pretty much moot, anyway.

[K-W]

68. The war in Iraq was done in the name of christianity.

George Bush believes that christianity supports his decision to wage aggressive war. He is justifying violence through christianity. He has made it more than clear that he sees no conflict between chrstianity and aggression.

Meanwhile, you are in no position to demand any lists of me. I am not going to go do your research for you. You are the one who claims to know that christians condemn violence more than muslims, you prove it.

[Grooner Five]

69. A double standard, I guess

At least I came up with two significant figures for you. I guess none are readily available for you to post to me.

That said, I disagree with your odd notion that Christianity is driving the Iraq war.

[K-W]

79. You disagree with something I never said. Congratulations.

That said, I disagree with your odd notion that Christianity is driving the Iraq war.

You are the only person here foolish enough to suggest that a belief system is driving violence.

I never asked you for a list, that was a different poster. So why do you keep bugging me about making a list I am under no responsibility to produce?

[Grooner Five]

87. My apologies.

You kind of blended together.

I had thought you were trying to tie Christianity to American involvement in Iraq.

[K-W]

100. Nothign blended together.

I was very clear. Many christians justify the aggression in Iraq morally through christianity. That is all I ever said. It is not my fault you misunderstood.

[Grooner Five]

102. I didn't say it was your fault

But your point is in no way clear.

[H2O Man]

150. Sure it is.

To think that the war in Iraq is anything other than Christian interests versus Islamic interests is pure nonsense. That is not to say that it is all Christians, or all Muslims. But it is in every sense of the word a religious war.

[H2O Man]

147. I had asked

about American religious leaders. You have yet to list any. You again list the pope, who I am sure you would agree is not a US citizen. Also, the NCC; while we may agree the organization is fantastic, it is not a religious leader. It is an organization. I'm still hoping you will provide the list of high profile American Christian leaders who have called on Bush to stop his violence.

[Modem Butterfly]

64. Citation please.

Thank-you.

[Grooner Five]

78. Sure

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0210-03.htm

Pope Takes Issue with America's 'Just War'
by Richard Owen in Rome

THE POPE launched an eleventh-hour crusade yesterday to avert a war against Iraq, for which he believes there is no justification.

The ageing pontiff rebuffed attempts by the Bush Administration to persuade him that impending military action against Baghdad amounted to a Christian “just war”.

Today he will dispatch a personal peace envoy to Baghdad to urge President Saddam Hussein to co-operate fully with United Nations weapons inspectors.

At the end of the week he will meet Tariq Aziz, Iraq’s Deputy Prime Minister and an Arab Christian, in Rome, and will also meet Kofi Annan, the UN Secretary-General. Diplomats said that Mr Aziz might remain in Rome to meet Mr Annan under the auspices of the Vatican.

[Modem Butterfly]

85. Huh. No quote.

And FYI, John Paul is no longer the Pope. The new Pope is Benedict. And the war, of course, continues...

[Grooner Five]

90. No quote?

What are you talking about? Has Common Dreams lied about the vatican's strong rejection of war?

By the time the new pope rolled along, the debate about going to war was long over.

Nonetheless, he has weighed in:

http://www.cjd.org/paper/benedict.html

The election of Benedict XVI as pope brings hope for the continuation of peacemaking as central to the papacy. Just as John Paul II cried out again and again to the world, "War never again!" the new pope has taken the name of the one who first made that cry, Benedict XV, commonly known as "the peace pope."

The name is no coincidence. In fact, Cardinal Justin Rigali, Archbishop of Philadelphia said Tuesday that the new pope told the cardinals he was selecting Benedict because "he is desirous to continue the efforts of Benedict XV on behalf of peace ... throughout the world."

As a Cardinal, the new pope was a staunch critic of the U.S. led invasion of Iraq. On one occasion before the war, he was asked whether it would be just. "Certainly not," he said, and explained that the situation led him to conclude that "the damage would be greater than the values one hopes to save."

"All I can do is invite you to read the Catechism, and the conclusion seems obvious to me…" The conclusion is one he gave many times: "the concept of preventive war does not appear in The Catechism of the Catholic Church." Even after the war, Cardinal Ratzinger did not cease criticism of U.S. violence and imperialism: "it was right to resist the war and its threats of destruction...It should never be the responsibility of just one nation to make decisions for the world."

[Modem Butterfly]

101. Excuses and hypocrisy

Cardinal Ratzinger, you know, the guy who became Pope, ordered that American Catholics, particularly politicans, who are pro-choice should be denied communion.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/showarchive.php?date=2004-07-07

Cardinal Ratzinger’s memorandum clearly says that “regarding the grave sin of abortion or euthanasia, when a person’s formal cooperation becomes manifest (understood, in the case of a Catholic politician, as his consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws), his Pastor should meet with him, instructing him about the Church’s teaching, informing him that he is not to present himself for Holy Communion until he brings to an end the objective situation of sin, and warning him that he will otherwise be denied the Eucharist.”

And “when these precautionary measures have not had their effect or in which they were not possible,” and the person in question, with obstinate persistence, still presents himself to receive the Holy Eucharist, ‘the minister of Holy Communion must refuse to distribute it.’”

You know, capital punishment is also a grave sin, according to the Catholic church. I wonder if Rick Santorum has ever had Communion withheld?

The Catholic church was ready, willing and able to mix politics with religion on abortion. I wonder why they were reluctant to do so with the war?

[Grooner Five]

112. I'm sorry

I thought we were talking about violence in the name of religion, and I was sure you asked me to cite the Vatican's ongoing opposition to the Iraq war. I thought I'd done that.

[Modem Butterfly]

115. The Vatican is not opposing this war the way they oppose abortion

In fact, a few half-assed statements, and then silence defended by "Oh well, it's on now," hardly qualifies as opposing the war, IMHO.

[Grooner Five]

117. Fine. You're entitled to your opinion

...even in the wake of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. That's the joy of free speech - something not available to the citizens of many Islamic countries.

[Modem Butterfly]

121. What is it with you and Muslims anyway?

The overwhelming evidence shows that the Catholic church is soft on the Iraq war. But of course, you have to tie that somehow to what you perceive as Islam.

"It's all Islam's fault. It's all Islam's fault. It's all Islam's fault."

[Grooner Five]

123. What is it with you and "Xtians?"

You didn't ask if the Vatican was "soft" on the Iraq war. You asked for a citation regarding their condemnation of it. I provided that for you, so you want to change the subject.

I guess you didn't like to find out that the evidence doesn't support your preconceived and (most probably) bigoted notions of Christianity.

[Modem Butterfly]

125. I asked for the citation so I could contrast with the abortion cite

Like a lot of people, I was absolutely shocked when the Catholic church inserted itself into American politics over abortion. But the contrast between how far they were willing to go over the abortion issue vs. Iraq is absolutely stunning, and a counterpoint to your argument that not enough Muslims are speaking out against the war. You claimed that the Catholic church is speaking out against the war, but in fact they are remaining silent now and have, in the very recent past, done much more than simply speak out when they consider an issue sufficiently urgent. Clearly, the Iraq war is not one they consider sufficiently urgent. Ahem.

Also, the word is Xian, no T. X is the symbol for Christ.

[Grooner Five]

132. Oh, right

trying to confuse the issue with a dissertation on abortion was your plan from the start. Got it.

[Modem Butterfly]

134. Well, granted, I could have just slaughtered 700 Nigerian Muslims

But this seemed more efficient.

[Grooner Five]

142. You do know Nigerian Muslims kill far more Xians, right?

Or does that also contradict your preconceived notions, and thus get ignored by you?

It's obvious to me that you are deeply entrenched in anti-Christian bigotry, and that it blinds you to facts you'd rather not confront. Fair enough.

[Modem Butterfly]

151. Not according to this

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/05/23/nigeri10993.htm

One year after some 900 people were massacred in clashes between Muslims and Christians in northern and central Nigeria, the Nigerian government has failed to prosecute those responsible for this cycle of violence, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today.

SNIP

Then on May 2 and 3, hundreds of well-armed Christians surrounded the town from different directions and killed around 700 Muslims.

I think you are emotionally vested in the idea of savage Muslims killing innocent Xians. Up thread, you even attempted to justify the murder of hundreds of Muslims by Xians as a reaction to Islamic rule, yet as HRW makes clear, the government of Nigeria hasn't prosectuted anyone involved in these killings, either Xian or Muslim. And so the violence continues.

I think it's sad that I brought up this topic as part of a larger discussion on religious violence in general, but you have been so enchanted with the idea of Muslims being responsible for most of the religious violence in the world that you justify the murder of hundreds of innocents because of some sort of scoreboard that exists only in your mind.

[Kalish]

31. lots of churches and the Pope opposed the Iraq war

this broad brush treatment of Christianity gets tiresome....

[H2O Man]

35. "Lot" is a poor list.

Those American religious leaders? The big names, please?

[Kalish]

44. ya'll are falling right into the right wing psych-out

they got some christians who are loud and annoying and drown out everyone else, leading people to abandon the whole notion of christian to the Republican party.

"Fifteen years have passed since the Rev. Robert Edgar stepped down from his seat on the U.S. House of Representatives. But the United Methodist minister still has his foot in the door of the Capitol's dealings.

As general secretary for the National Council of Churches, Edgar is a leader in the increasingly broad religious opposition to war on Iraq. Some are calling the movement the biggest show of solidarity against war since Vietnam.

Edgar, himself, is calling it proof of a nation's spiritual maturity. In recent months, nearly 50 Christian leaders -- bishops for the Roman Catholic Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), the United Church of Christ and the National Baptist Convention -- have sent President Bush letters opposing the war."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1102-07.htm

[H2O Man]

47. No, I'm not falling

for what you're saying at all.

[Kalish]

65. what is it you think I'm saying?

[H2O Man]

144. If you read

your posts you'll see.

[K-W]

55. Yes, but most Muslim leaders oppose violence.

The criticism is that not all of them have or that they havent done it loud enough.

When compared to US christian leaders and US aggression that criticism is laughable.

[CJCRANE]

149. Two so-called

Christian leaders invaded a country on a pack of lies leading to the deaths of up 100,000 innocent civilians. One of those leaders has a base that consists of fundamentalist and mainstream christians.

In the last century, christian europeans killed 6 million Jews and 20 million Russians.

Al-Qaeda is bad but they are a small group of outlaws who are outcasts even in their own countries and operate in secret, and not representative of Islam.

[bryant69]

29. I'd agree

In that neither is all that representative of their respective faiths.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Modem Butterfly]

45. My point exactly

Osama Bin Laden is a monster. Adolf Hitler is a monster. Both used their religion as justification for their acts. No one would claim that Adolf Hitler was typical of Xianity, but people claim that Osama Bin Laden is typical of Islam. That's bullshit.

[zbdent]

88. As Tim McVeigh, the KKK, and neo-Nazis

are for the Republican party.

Oh, wait . . .

[Sgent]

91. One question

How many thousands have died in the last 5 years due to muslims using religious justification?

How many thousands for christians using religious justification?

The fact is that regardless of who is or is not speaking out, the numbers are telling. At a minimum, Islam has not come to grips with the modern world, and their current reaction includes a disproportionate amount of violence.

[Kraklen]

94. extremist muslims have killed ~3,000

extremist christians have killed >200,000.

So yeah, the numbers are telling. Christians haven't come to grups with the modern world.

[Sgent]

108. 200K

Where the hell is that number from?

I can't think of anywhere in the last 5 years that even 1k were killed using Christian theology as the justification for their violence.

[Kraklen]

109. The Lancet.

In a place called Iraq.

[Ravenseye]

148. Well extend it to 10 years and you've got over 100k muslims killed

100,000 to 200,000 muslims were killed in Bosnia, murdered by christians, simply because they were muslim. still no concrete numbers there.

[CJCRANE]

153. I bet they're even

or maybe even Christian aggression is ahead if you take into account 500,000+ Iraqis under sanctions and 100,000+ Iraqis in Gulf War II.

There are also Christian terrorist groups as well, such as the Lords Resistance Army in Uganda, not to mention the slaughter of nearly a million people in Rwanda by christians.

In the last century we've got 6 million Jews and 20 million Russians wiped out by Christians.

I'm not anti-Christian but this whole "Islam is uniquely violent" is just total crap.

[KG]

92. anybody that thinks xtian theology isn't a driving force

in US foriegn policy is just kidding themselves.

[Grooner Five]

118. Really?

Can you cite some modern examples of the tie between Christianity and American foreign policy?

[KG]

127. i no longer feel obliged to point out the obvious to the willfully obtuse

you bore me.

bye.

[The Great Deceiver]

122. I would like to say I agree

but I do not know enough about Islam to comment. Of course, if one were to base thier analysis soley on what MSM in America "reports" they would assert that this is absolutely false; that Osama is the face of Islam today and Hitler was nothing close to how a real, practicing Xtian behaves. I won't make that assertion because I know there is more to Islam than what media whores tell me there is.

After 9/11 my uncle, a liberal in the truest sense, picked up the Koran and read it cover to cover. He described it as being extreme and harsh, as compared to the Bible.

There are several Muslim groups who speak out against the violence the stripe of which Usama seems to be most often be linked.

Of course, most all Xtian groups denounce the actions of Hitler.

Conclusion: this statement is just too narrow, and the definitions too open to interpretation to be entirely accurate.

[Ravenseye]

145. The Ignorance In This Thread Is Astounding

It's part of the reason Muslims have so many problems.

Osama Bin Laden : Islam :: Adolf Hitler : Christianity

I'd say true.

Radical Murdering Criminal : The Religon he uses as cover.

Hitler covered himself in christianity the same way bin Laden drapes Islam over himself, but neither one was a true proponent of the actual religion and merely used it and corrupted it for their own political and criminal gain.

As far as all the ignorance about Muslims, and Islam, and all the rest in this thread, I don't want to butt my head into all the different side arguments but to say...

Islam is a religion of peace, it hasn't always been, but neither has Christianity. The 'terrorists' are political creatures draping themselves with religion, which is a common theme not only with Hitler but much of the right wing in this country today. Islam is responsible for terrible things in the past, but so is Christianity. Muslims abhor this violence more than anyone else, because not only are they potential victims of these crimes, but they are blamed for all of them.

[Modem Butterfly]

154. Well said

The 'terrorists' are political creatures draping themselves with religion, which is a common theme not only with Hitler but much of the right wing in this country today. Islam is responsible for terrible things in the past, but so is Christianity. Muslims abhor this violence more than anyone else, because not only are they potential victims of these crimes, but they are blamed for all of them.

[Grooner Five]

155. Actually....

They were far more supportive of Bin Laden when he wasn't bombing Muslim countires. That's dropping a bit now, but I find the numbers startling.

They certainly contradict your generalization, anyway. More Muslims support Bin Laden than you may want to admit.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071401030_2.html?nav=rss_nation

The survey results indicate that growing numbers of Muslims differentiate between what they consider the peaceful influence of Islamic values in politics and the use of religion to justify attacks. "The people who see Islam playing an important role in political life are the ones most worried about extremism," Kohut said.

Yet solid majorities in five of the six Muslim countries surveyed -- Indonesia, Jordan, Lebanon, Pakistan and Turkey -- also now have unfavorable views of the United States. In the sixth, Morocco, views are divided. The governments in all six countries are U.S. allies and receive U.S. aid.

The survey found only 2 percent of the people polled in Lebanon and 7 percent in Turkey expressing confidence that bin Laden would "do the right thing regarding world affairs." The proportion that expressed confidence in the al Qaeda leader dropped from almost half to about a quarter in Morocco, and from 58 percent to 37 percent in Indonesia. Bin Laden's standing went up slightly in Pakistan, to 51 percent, and in Jordan, to 60 percent.

Three factors, Kohut said, contributed to the notable shift in views on bin Laden and suicide bombings: incidents of terrorism in Muslim countries, an increase in positive feelings about events at home, and the passage of time since the 2003 survey conducted after the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

[Modem Butterfly]

156. Yes, yes, you hate Muslims, we all get it

[Grooner Five]

157. I don't hate anyone...

But I'm not going to make stuff up in my head that backs up my notions, the way you seem to be doing. Do you take issue with the results of that poll reported by the Washington Post? If not, how can you stand by your notion that Muslims generally abhor Bin Laden, when reasonable evidence to the contrary is staring you in the face?

Apparently, a sizable portion of them support both him and Al Qaeda - 60% in some countries. It's all there in black and white.

[CJCRANE]

159. I think it's quite interesting

if you actually read what Bin Laden says. He is a terrorist but he is acting in "good faith" in the sense that his aims are quite clear.

His mirror image, the neocons are not acting in "good faith" because their stated objectives are totally at odds with their actions (i.e. they're based on lies and spin, such Plamegate, no WMD in Iraq, no Iraq link to Al-Qaeda etc etc).

i.e. Bin Laden is a known quantity, so we should be able to figure out how to combat him, but this seems to be way down the agenda of the current admin.

[Modem Butterfly]

160. But I'm not going to make stuff up in my head that backs up my notions

:rofl:

Is that much irony painful?

:evilgrin:

Do you take issue with the results of that poll reported by the Washington Post?

Without any context at all, I can't even comment. We don't know how many people were surveyed, what sort of questions and controls were used, who conducted the survey or even over what time frame. Without any of that information, it's pretty useless except as a tool with which to beat Muslims. Ahem.

[Ravenseye]

162. Actually

it compares the numbers at the start of the iraq war when hatred of the U.S. was highest with now.

Also it basicaly makes a blanket statement that say for instance Morroccan = Muslim. Granted the majority of morroccans are muslims, but the majority of Americans are Christians. That doesn't mean that just because a majority of Americans supported the war on Iraq and Afghanistan that Christians are bloodthirsty people.

Jordanians and Lebanese don't like 'jews' in that poll. That doesn't mean they don't like anyone who is of the Jewish religion. That's a direct statement about how they don't like the government of Israel.

People need to understand that the politics of the middle east, both surrounding Israel and now Iraq are not synomous with Islam.

It's like saying that because you go to church on Sundays in Indianapolis that you are therefore a christian, and your country is majority christian, therefore it acts as a Christian, with your support, and whatever it does is because you're Christian.

Is that the case?

The insurgents in Iraq aren't fundies. They're political insurgents fighting the United States.

[Grooner Five]

158. And speaking of hate...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071401030_2.html?nav=rss_nation


The decline in support for suicide bombings was largest in Indonesia, which has witnessed deadly bombings at a Marriott hotel in Jakarta and at a Bali tourist hotel -- attacks that seriously affected tourism and foreign investment. Jordan was the only country where the majority surveyed -- 57 percent -- still support terrorist acts in defense of Islam, possibly because the majority Palestinian population is tied to the conflict with Israel, Kohut said.

But Norton also noted: "As the events in London show, it does not take too many people to cause big problems. If only 1/10,000 of 1 percent is inclined to terrorism, that is still 1,200 potential mass killers."

One of the starkest findings was the divide in views on religion. Most of those surveyed in nine Western countries -- including the United States, Britain, Canada, France and Russia -- said they have favorable views of Muslims, although the non-Muslims surveyed were more likely to say Islam is more violent than Christianity, Judaism or Hinduism.

The Muslims surveyed had mixed views on Christians, and anti-Jewish sentiment was "endemic," the survey reported.

[Grooner Five]

161. And what sort of tool is relating "Xianity" to Hitler?

Find me a poll, any poll, from any source, context or not, that shows 60% of any Christian country supporting Hitler, and I'll concede your ridiculous original point.

Otherwise, I'll just take it as the blindfaced Christian bashing it was obviously meant to be, in defense of a religion that you've obviously done no research of any kind to understand - beyond fabricating the way you want it to be in your head.

[Modem Butterfly]

164. I think you missed my original point entirely

Hitler DOESN'T relate to Xianity, and Osama Bin Laden DOESN'T relate to Islam, except they are both leaders who used religion to cover their monstrous acts.

[Ravenseye]

165. You said any source or context right?

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/REVIEWS/Bukey.HTM

Germany supported Hitler, Austria supported Hitler.

Heck read to the end of that link, even in 1985 50 percent of Austrians thought that the Nazi experience had been 'good as well as bad'

I'd say forty years after it was proven that Hitler commited genocide (40% of the people actually committting the genocide were Austrian) and the Austrians still thought of the Nazi's as not all that bad.

[Modem Butterfly]

166. I think it's worth pointing out that some of the first laws Hitler enacted

enforced things like school prayer and outlawed abortion for Aryan women.

[dogday]

163. You can look at the bad of a situation and

you can look at the good of a situation. You can show one side and not the other. However the whole story is more than just comparing one man and his religion to another man and his religion.

Both religions do GOOD WORK, there are alot of good shelters, teen suicide programs, city programs, alot of things that are done with a good christian and a good muslim heart and yes there are the bad things too.

But in order to truly represent both, you must look to both sides of this issue, not just the bad....

[CJCRANE]

167. I'd like to know

what your reaction would be if, for instance, China did a "shock and awe" on America, occupied the country, tortured innocent people, and led to the deaths of 100,000 Americans?

Added to that they decided that their communist version of capitalism was much better than yours and tried to steer the country into accepting their system? (Whilst at the same time setting up permanent military bases).

[Ravenseye]

168. Don't forget to use the right ratio

20 million iraqis, 1.5 million killed by the sanctions, 100,000 killed in the war (just counting innocent civilians here)

If that happened in America

300 million americans, 40 million killed by the sanctions, 1.3 million killed in the war

with more every day.

[Sgent]

169. No one has yet made argument

other than by repitition, that the Iraqi foriegn policy is motivated religiously. In fact, most on this board believe it to be about oil and Haliburton. I've never heard once either Clinton, 41, or 43 indicate that we have a holy war agaisnt Iraqi's.

This is in direct contrast to the Bin Laden who's entire campaign against the US is motivated upon his stated religious beliefs that the US is defiling Saudi Arabia and the Muslim holy land (Mecca, etc).

Finally, with the exception of the former Yugoslovia, Christianity oriented holy wars have largely been absent from indistrialized nations since the 18th century, if not previously.

IMHO, the religion -- in this case Muslim -- has not caught up to the times. It will happen, and there is a majority of people that already have, but a significant minority who have not.

Finally, how many Wahabi clerics have issued fatwa's condemming suicide bombings in general, or even merely sucide bombings in the US and Europe?

[CJCRANE]

172. The argument that

the Iraq invasion is motivated religiously has two aspects.

The Islamophobic crowd usually make the connection that any violent action by some-one who claims to be a muslim or happens in a muslim country is made on behalf of Islam, i.e. all muslims.

You can use the same logic and apply it to Christians too.

Having said that, it's not exactly a coincidence that Bush called the Iraq adventure a "Crusade", General Boykin compared the Islamic God to Satan and an idol, a Republican has postulated nuking Mecca, and the Republican base is fundamentlaist christians and christian "values voters" who voted this administration back in despite the fact that they are draining the US treasury fighting an unpopular and illegal war.

However, I wouldn't say that all nearly 300,000 million Americans (or all 2 billion Christians) are responsible for "shock and awe", Abu Ghraib, Fallujah etc which would seem the case following the same logic.

[Ravenseye]

174. The point

...is that we assign the term 'muslim' to a whole swath of religions, ethnicities, countries, and think of it as one large entity. It's not. Generalizing muslims in any way just doesn't work, but people continue to do it.

bin Laden's motiviation is revenge against the U.S. AND Saudi Arabia because he's crazy. It's political too. The soviets were gone and his life had lost it's meaning. He wanted to come back and fight Iraq in the first gulf war, but they brought in the Americans instead. He got angry and when the americans stayed his life had a new purpose. It has zero to do with Islam.

Also it's nice that you can just make an exception for the deaths of 200k muslims. Hey that's just an exception right? Not like the 5k or so americans who have been killed so far in this one.

If you're going to refer to the religion by the way, it's Islam, not Muslim. A muslim is a person who is a member of Islam. Plenty of clerics have issued fatwa's condemming suicide bombings and terrorist acts. You don't hear about them because they're either doing it in the mosque, or they're doing it in arabic, and you dont' read arabic, or they're just not covered in the western world because it's not 'sexy' for the news when an Islamic cleric makes sense. Kind of like when they cover feminism it's always a shaved head woman caring a big pair of hedge trimmers screaming that all men need their balls cut off. They're not representative of Feminism, but they scream the loudest and get the most press.

You do make one good point, Islam does need to catch up to the times more. It actually used to be far more enlightened than Christianity. Science, math, art...all were important under Islam. The history of what happened in the past hundred years though is a big part of how it's regressed.

[Modem Butterfly]

170. He's been tombstoned

[Kalish]

171. figures

how could it have been otherwise?

[Pong]

176. I'm fairly sure

Sgent is correct. While there is Christian motivated violence in the world, there is much more Muslim motivated violence. For one, there are quite a few countries that are Islamic states, where as there are no countries that I can think of off the top of my head that are Christian states. Do individual Christians or Christian groups promote violence? Yes, but they cannot compare to the state-sponsored violence of many Muslim states, especially Muslim states that come into contact with non-Muslims, within their own state or in a bordering state. And moreover, the acts of Christian extremists nowadays are nearly unanimously condemned by Christian authority where Muslim extremism has large pockets of supporters, sometimes even in the majority. It can be clearly seen that Christianity is much more tolerant than Islam, in general, though I'm sure there are exceptions. But there are no Christian states imposing their will upon populaces, whereas the same cannot be said for Islam. This is mainly the reason for the difference, Islam has much more direct power over people than Christianity in the present world.

[Bouncy Ball]

179. Back this part up with some links, please.

"...the acts of Christian extremists nowadays are nearly unanimously condemned by Christian authority..."

I have reasons for asking you to support that particular assertion. I will go into them after you have provided said support.