If you're Church tells u to b bigoted, and then you are, are you excused?

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

If the hierarchy of your Church directs that it's followers should act in a bigoted way because according to their interpretation of their holy scriptures, that's the way life is supposed to be, and then the Church's followers act and talk bigoted, are they then excused from being accused of being bigoted because "the Devil made them do it"?

I don't think so. :mad:

[bryant69]

1. That depends on what the term "bigoted" means

How broadly or narrowly you want to construe it, I mean.

If we are talking about Christianity - the religion I know best, I don't see how one can justify hatred of someone you consider a sinner. I certainly don't see any justification for cruelty or harrassment.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

5. Is there some way to see justifiable discrimination?

That is, if your religion says you must treat gays or blacks or Jews or women differently, and then you do concrete things exhibiting that discrimination, can you say that the discrimination is justified by your religion?

[bryant69]

10. Well I don't know

I guess it would depend on how you treat them differently, a phrase that is extremely general. Denying them jobs or keeping them out from moving into certain neighborhoods I would have a very hard time accepting as justified.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

12. I don't know then - diff. water fountains? Riding in the back of bus?

Sounds petty, but the Catholic Church (just for example) says masturbation is a "grave" moral error.

[bryant69]

14. Ah see there's the rub

Are you allowed to believe that masterbation is a sin? Is believing it is a sin a form of discrimination/bigotry?

But as for those two issues I would think that would be the mean-spirited kind of discrimination.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

15. Confused - d'you mean, "allowed to believe mast. isn't a sin"?

And sorry for mixing apples and oranges here.

What I was getting at was the fact that the RCC pontificates about the most minor matters imaginable, drawing fewer distinctions between important issues and non-important issues. Ergo, if they pontificated about separate water fountains being obligatory as to race or gender. In other words, you (or whoever) imply that, "well, there's discrimination as to jobs and then there are more minor things which don't count", and I'm saying that the underlying motive is bigotry, and if you throw your support behind separate water fountains, then you are, de facto, a bigot.

Another poster made a good point about shared responsibility, with which I agree.

However, I believe in no case can it be argued that a believer following some church's dogma that discrimination/bigotry is okay, is something which is 100% excusable.

[bryant69]

16. Let me put it straight then

Is believing that masterbation is a Sin Bigotry? It is a prfound judgement on the masterbator, isn't it?

In my mind it would depend on how you believe Sinners should be treated. I believe we are all Sinners (myself included) and casting someone out for sin is hypocricy and mean spirited (except in the case where such a person is actively trying to get you to sin as well, which is kind of a grey area). Look at how Christ treated the woman taken in adultry (an extremely serious sin) and follow that model.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

17. I'm not making my point very well - basically,

it's the hierarchy of the Catholic Church which determines for the laity what is sinful and what is not sinful based upon their interpretation of the Bible.

In my opinion, masturbation is about as non-sinful and natural a sin as there is. So, I raised it as an issue that the church sees fit to address in very controlling, guilt-laden terms. In other words, it makes the non-sinful act sinful because they say so.

So, basically, my point is that if the Church say red is green, and you run a red light, is it the Church's fault, and not yours?

Similarly if a church somewhere pushes the idea of bringing back separate water fountains for blacks and whites because that's what their scriptures say and then someone starts pushing for separate water fountains, is that church member bigoted? yes.

[bryant69]

18. Yeah I don't know that I'm following you.

You seem to be saying that the Church has said irrational things in the past (like saying that Masterbation is a sin and coming down on it). You are also narrowing your focus to the Catholic Church - I am not a member of the Catholic Church, but my particular faith also teaches masterbation as a sin.

So if they could say something as illogical as "Masterbation is a sin" what's stopping them from saying "Blacks and Whites shouldn't drink at the same Drinking Fountain."

Is that your point?

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

19. Yes, that's my point.

And in theory, a church could say that anything is mandatory (even bigotry) under their interpretation of their holy scriptures. A Christian sect could.

[bryant69]

20. Well than I would probably deal with that as it came up

There are churchs right now who teach bigotry and hatred. I would argue that such churches are not in harmony with the teachings of Christ.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

22. Yes, but my question pertains to the individual, not the church

what would you say about the individual who claims to belong to a certain "bigoted" church? Is that individual not also bigoted by, prima facie, his/her behavior itself, regardless of motivation? I'm saying, that individual IS racist/bigoted and they can't hide behind "oh, it's against my religion."

[bryant69]

25. I'd agree with that

As far as it goes.

[ArkDem]

24. There's the rub?

Best masturbation quote I've seen in many a day!:rofl:

[Deep13]

2. no excuse

People can always hide behind religion or other cultural norms to justify bigotry. People must be responsible for their own actions.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

8. Amen.

eom

[Beaver Tail]

3. f you do then you MUST have missed the story of “The Good Samaritan.”.

The Jews were bigots to the Samaritan but the Samaritan raised above that bigotry to set an example to us. To be a bigot is to reject the teachings of Christ.

[Deep13]

6. For some reason, religious bigots seem to read just the OT.

For supposed Christians, they don't seem to pay much attention to Christ.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

9. Exactly.

Wow, you really have a way of hitting the mark.

[Beaver Tail]

13. Which goes to show

If you do not pay attention to the teachings of Christ you are NOT a Christian, you are a Charlatan.

[Ready4Change]

4. Not by me. n/t

[tubbacheez]

7. "being" bigoted is too vague of a scenario.

Perfoming bigoted actions, even when told by your respected church authorities, is morally weak on its own.

If your church has successfully indoctrinated you (say, through years of teaching and preaching) to agree with such bigotry, then I'd consider the responsibility shared between you and your church.

If your church has unsuccessfully attempted to indoctinate you (i.e. you disagree with your church on this point, but stay for other reasons), then you are fully responsible for your actions.

I wouldn't consider any situation where you act out in a bigoted way as ever fully excusable. But I'd recognize certain situations where things aren't totally black or white, and the responsibility for the act falls on more than 2 shoulders.





Peace.

[catabryna]

11. Certainly not!

There is no excuse for bigoted behavior and it would be considered a sin by anyone who followed the true teachings of Christ. However, a central part of Christianity is the opportunity for forgiveness. In addition, it's my belief that there is not is not a greater of lesser degree of sin; sin is sin.

Therefore, under the true teachings of Christ, you may be brought to account for your actions, but it doesn't necessarily prevent a person from entering heaven. Of course, this is just my belief and trust me when I say that it's very difficult for me to reconcile on many occasions because any crime against humanity makes me want to waiver. But, I have to put aside my personal assessment of a situation; it's not mine to judge.

[PurityOfEssence]

21. God is the cosmic trump card; you're allowed to maim and kill

Surely you knew that, didn't you? Religion is good. Bad stuff is caused by evil people. Didn't you hear Scottie tell us that suicide bombers aren't religious?

Islam and Christianity are, at their hearts, philosophies of extreme personal selfishness. The prime duty in each is to save one's own ass. Along the way, bigotries heap upon certainties, and one has ample latitude to guarantee one's own salvation while abusing others without making amends to one's victims.

It all goes back to the premise. If the premise is that "religion is good", then abuse will abound.

The truth of religion can be summed up thus: "But...this one goes to eleven."

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

23. Interesting observations about religion.

I think, as practiced by a majority of adherents to those religions, you're right. Is there no other way to practice Christianity or Islam? I would argue that yes, there are other, truly altruistic ways of practicing those religions.