Do you ever have moments of empathy?

[The Witch]

Put on your philosophical hats and let's make this a flame-free zone pleeeeeeeeease.

Do you ever have moments where you understand what the other side is thinking?

That is, do you ever have a moment where you think "You know, I can understand why they think abortion is murder. I think it's not, but I can understand the thought on the other side."

Do you ever have moments where you go further and say, "You know, I think the Democrats are really playing politics there and they should cut it out."

Just wondering if I need to go lick the DLC's boots for these occasionally dirty thoughts. ;D Please I'm not a troll kthxbbq, my real purpose is wondering if we can't build on those moments of empathy to create a new kind of dialog, but I want to make sure i'm not weird first.

Going back to my hidey-hole now. :yoiks: :hide:

[bushisanidiot]

1. Do abused women ever feel empathy toward their wife beating husbands?

sorry, i have little empathy or sympathy for them.

they set up the arkansas project specifically to bring any and all clintons down in any way they could. they did the same thing to john mccain, al gore, and john kerry.. they'd do it to anyone they don't want in power.

they are the party of personal destruction. they will lie, cheat, steal and kill to win.

no. no empathy at all.

[bryant69]

2. You're not human if you don't have those thoughts

And the other kind which is "To Hell with the other side - I'm going to stab them first (rhetorically), because I'm damn sure they are going to stab me!"

But, for the record, Democrats should play politics and they should play to win. Republicans are doing bad things to America and they are going to keep on doing bad things unless they are stopped. And the only way to stop them from doing bad things is to gain political power. So I'm happy the Democrats are playing the Political Game - I just wish they would win more regularly.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

3. As a person of science, medicine and reason, I have to say "no"

Can't really see past the illogical. Sorry.

[Obamarama]

4. Have you ever played Mr. Nice Guy until getting kicked one too many times?

Until just recently I used to be interested in trying to see the other side in the name of civilized, intelligent discussion and goodwill.

But you know what? Typically the person on the other side only wants you to see THEIR view and isn't interested in seeing yours.

So, to answer your question, NO...not anymore. We're in the middle of a culture war, pure and simple, and I have NO INTENTION of consorting with the enemy.

[Pacifist Patriot]

5. Absolutely.

And I think it's important to be able to position yourself like that lest you become as much of an ideologue as the other side. I can certainly understand why they think abortion is murder without agreeing with the position....and recognizing the hypocrisy with respect to anti-choice/pro-DP folks.

I've seen countless examples of Democrats playing down and dirty politics. When it comes to election law and respecting the Constitution I don't care with which political party the candidate/advisors are affiliated. I hold the rule of law above party loyalty.

I even understand my relatives' blind adherence to conservative Christianity even though I could never ascribe to the same faith system.

I think it is entirely possible to understand the other side's perspective without subscribing to its validity.

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. Agree.

Having read the PNAC position papers, I can understand their logic, their reasoning, and see how they see their goals as laudable.

But I also see that they are anti-democratic and just plain wrong. Instead of accepting the world as it is, and making what incremental changes in it they can, they want to re-make the world to a blueprint that is badly flawed. They seem to believe that everyone sees the world as they do - that security and comfort are prized higher than liberty - that the ends justifies the means - that might makes right.

They will always be mystified that young men will throw themselves on the barricades, will fight tanks with pistols, and sacrifice their own lives for the sake of their culture or religion. To them, it just doesn't balance on the bottom line, so they will never understand it.

That is what makes them, them and us, us, IMHO. We can sympathize and empathize more easily, even with more extreme oppositional behaviors, while they are barely able to empathize with those most closely aligned to them.

[Pacifist Patriot]

27. Having watched the movie "Bloody Sunday" yesterday...

your post resonates with me today.

PNAC is baffling to me. Like you, I can understand their reasoning...but gracious is it flawed!

[Dora]

6. I do.

Empathy for another's viewpoint doesn't mean agreement.

As for building on empathy to create dialogue? Yeah, right. Sorry, but the "other side" isn't interested in dialogue of any kind. They're slaves to the win/lose dichotomy. "If you're not with us, you're against us," remember?

[getmeouttahere]

7. Not with THESE people on the other side!

Now if we were talking about sane, rational people...

[Lannes]

8. Before 2000

There were times when I could understand some of the arguments the right was making.But thats before this administration took the GOP to the far right.The only time I can remember agreeing with chimpie on anything is when he said that we shouldnt tap in to our Strategic Petroleum Reserve.

As far as empathy for the right,no I cant say I have it these days.Anyone on the right who crosses the party leadership is targeted.Dont know if you saw this article...

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/wire/connecticut/ny-bc-ct--congress-veterans0716jul16,0,7302099,


July 16, 2005, 2:37 PM EDT

WASHINGTON -- Fellow Republicans warned House Speaker Dennis Hastert and Majority Leader Tom DeLay more than a year ago that the government would come up short _ by at least $750 million _ for veterans' health care.

The leaders' response: Fire the messengers.

Now that the Bush administration has acknowledged a shortfall of at least $1.2 billion, embarrassed Republicans are scrambling to fill the gap. Meanwhile, Democrats portray the problem as another example of the GOP and the White House taking a shortsighted approach to the cost of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and criticize their commitment to the troops.

New Jersey Rep. Chris Smith, as chairman of the House Veterans' Affairs Committee, had told the House GOP leadership that the Veterans Affairs Department needed at least $2.5 billion more in its budget.

The Senate passed a bill with that increase; the House's bill was $750 million short.

Smith and 30 other Republicans wrote to their leaders in March 2004 to make the point that lawmakers who were not the usual outspoken advocates for veterans were troubled by the move.

Failure to come up with the additional $2.5 billion, they contended, could mean higher co-payments and "rationing of health care services, leading to long waiting times or other equally unacceptable reductions in services to veterans."

Still, the House ignored them.

Smith was rebuked by several Republicans for sounding the spending alarm, and House leaders yanked his chairmanship in January. Rep. Rob Simmons, R-Conn., lost his chairmanship of the VA health subcommittee, and Rep. Rick Renzi, R-Ariz., is no longer on the committee. They too had signed the letters to Hastert, R-Ill., and DeLay, R-Texas.

[shugah]

9. maybe the examples you give

don't provoke empathy from me. as far as abortion - sure i understand what they think, but why they think it? especially when so many of the other things they believe are so contradictary? nah, no empathy. they can believe what they want and i have no problem with that - it's when they want to force everyone else to conform that i take exception.

playing politics? hmm... you mean like dems against video games? that just strikes me as absurd.

i empathize only insofar as i respect anyone's right to hold views even if they are diametrically opposed to my own - when others do not extend the same courtesy to me, well, where does the empathetic dialog come from?

[undergroundpanther]

12. Pity for a bully

will just get your empathy used against you.

Sure I think the republicans are sick,pathetic..

But I am under no illusion I can"save" them from their chosen ignorance past a certain point,it is obvious they do not want to change.
Also I am under no illusion they have any real "empathy" for me that is not colored by want of domination and to have their way their reactionary limited,stifling, way that would be intolerable way for me to live. I do not pity abusers of my civil rights.I have no empathy to waste on people who cannot and will not empathize with me and will not live and let live and must FORCE me to be as THEY are.

The difference is,if someone wants to be a republican Christian nazi in my neighborhood I do not care as long as they don't beat up gays or try to tell other peoples kids their propaganda bullshit or take away my freedoms..The rethugican on the other hand will not rest until I live like he does, I believe as he does and I bow to the same god.Republicans will take everyones rights away,preemptively so everyone will be forced to be the same.Don't pity sociopaths that is their hook for you to bite and compromise with to lose your freedom.

[newportdadde]

10. I do yes at least regarding the personal responsibilty angle.

I don't believe in social darwinism or that garbage but I do get their point of view occassionally. I've had a few moments here and there in the past.

Once after a grueling week at work, dead tired I stopped to get gas. A man came up to ask for money saying he was a few cents short(I figured for gas). I don't carry change with me and was using a credit card for gas and told him 'Sorry I don't have any change on me'. He then went off on a screaming tirad on me about how he knows I have but wont give it to him etc. I'll admit I had some freeperish thoughts. By the way someone else gave him some change and he came out with Cigs.

My friend at work dated a girl who used her food stamps to buy steaks for them to grill out. He made over 50k by the way. By the way he is a die hard freeper and use to laugh about it.

Any time I hear someone bitch about money at a store while they sit there and buy boose and cigs I get irritated thoughts, "Dont buy that wasteful expensive shit if money is so tight!"

When I hear tales of huge credit card debt that dont end in someone having a medical issue or a job issue, just pure simple spending their ass off I get PO'd and have some 'freeperish thoughts' like "How about living like my wife and I do and don't buy shit you can't afford" Hell I could go out and charge a lot of shit I don't need if I wanted to but I have SELF CONTROL.

Most of the other positions I understand but never find myself agreeing even slightly with.

[pitohui]

11. i'm sorry tools eff up their lives

if pity and contempt be empathy OK

but i didn't tell them to refuse to educate themselves

easier to empathize with those like us, stupid people who chose to play spitballs in the back of the room while we were reading the news are not like us

i do the hard work of running my own life, i don't ask fox news or a 6,000 year old book to run my life

suggest they do the same and maybe i'll have more pity and less contempt

[GreenArrow]

13. evidently, given most responses so far, empathy sucks

Personally, I believe it's a crucial human skill, but one that is really not generally valued in our society.

[shugah]

19. empathy is good

and valued. there was a thread recently about a letter a bush voter wrote decrying the fact that life was turning very sucky for she and her husband during their sunset years - not enough money to live on, much less pay for medical care and prescriptions. despite the fact that such an existence is exactly what she voted for, i found it very sad, and absolutely could empathize.

i hope she gets some help. i hope she realizes that for years it has been the democratic party that has been trying to put safety nets in place for people in her situation. she probably won't, so that is why i ask where does the empathetic dialog start? no matter how much empathy, sympathy, and downright pity we may feel, no matter how much we do as a progressive group or as individuals, no matter the fact that our goals are ultimately expected to help and not hurt people, most will cling stubbornly to their so-called "moral values."

they don't want a dialog. they don't even make sense!

[Obamarama]

22. Wilma. Her name was Wilma. And she will never come to her senses....

Why invest the emotional energy required to be empathetic toward someone for whom that empathy will never make any difference whatsoever. People like Wilma don't have my pity and they don't have my empathy, nor do I believe they deserve any. She is in the circumstances she's in through due to her own ignorance, stupidity, whatever. She voted for values...TWICE...and now has the audacity to plead for help?

I have a tremendous capacity to feel empathy, but I'll save it for some poor elderly couple in the same circumstances as Wilma but didn't vote themselves into their own hole.

[Stirk]

14. I know plenty of Limbaugh Republicans, and I know very well why they

hold those political views. It's all based on hatred of various sorts. Racism is a big part of it, classism is another part. They have a general hatred for the poor, and they have this sense that they've lost something because of minorities.

I can empathize with them enough to see what their political ideas are rooted in, but I can't sympathize with them. Their political philosophy really is mostly built on hatred.

[Justitia]

15. It's not empathy you describe, but reflexive questioning.

And a trait held by those capable of higher, enlightened thought, trying to see all sides of an argument. It is both a gift and a curse of most of us on this side of the aisle - LOL.

See it for what it is - your individual ability re: analytical thinking, and for what it is NOT - acceptance of a valid argument or flawed premises.

I always ask myself the hypothetical "if not this thing (a woman's right to choose, for example), what is the alternative?" There is always an alternative in reality. That will quickly sum up the concrete options without embarking on endless philosophical sideroads.

Unrelated really, but sometimes we forget that not only are we Democrats (big D), but we are the OPPOSITION PARTY, and that has a function entirely separate from political ideology.

WE are the check and balance against the tyranny of the majority over the minority. It is our function to OPPOSE, and therefore keep the rights of ANYONE not of the majority from being trampled or their voices silenced. People often ask me - "are you a liberal?" I often answer: I am the OPPOSITION. I think it is more reflective of my responsibilities.

[sam sarrha]

20. Oh,...that is what it is... the Cassandra Complex, ..I Know It Well.

and you get totally deer in the headlights look from people whenever you try to explain something.. the really insecure one get violent when you do 'It'.

I have been at parties and have been in discussions in the kitchen and have had people say to the others... "What the hell is this guy talking about..!!

then other times , i had a guy go catatonic for about 3 minutes.. everyone standing in the circle were staring at him.. he blinks and looks at me and says,.."WOW, i understand...How do you do that.."

The problem with the Cassandra Complex is not that you see the Future.. and you cant change it. It is that when you Reflexively Review and have a vast acquisition of information you acquired OCB'ly there is often only one conclusion to come to... that if you do something that F'n STUPID ..the disaster is emenent..!!

these NEOCON Fascist A-holes never consider the consequences to others because they are Criminally Mentally Insane and need to locked up.

[sam sarrha]

16. there is a problem with getting into bed with evil..just to see how nice

they might be..

to qualify that statement.... there is a coordinated program to spin everything into confusion laced with hatred, intolerance and venom.

small differences are inflated and decorated with propaganda images that breed and feed intolerance.

Big differences are justification and fodder for war.

The Reich wing will stop at nothing, they are redefining words and attaching negative emotions to the new definition..

The Dalai Lama said, 'once a negative emotion is attached to a word, image or concept, all reasoning ends.' ..another quote, 'A negative thought will continue and increase exponentially until replaced by a positive thought, however the positive thought must be cultivated'.

the Reich redefined "ONE" word in the epa rules and that allowed "Mountain Topping" coal mining, a section of the Appellation mountains the size of Delaware will be flattened by taking the top of the mountain and pushing it into the valley beside it..take the coal and leave a seething toxic mess leeching Mercury and heavy metals into the groundwater.. they even redefined the word 'LIBERAL', it is now a dirty word. they bought up the publishing companies and even changed the definition in the dictionary of 'Facist'..

the Reich has reversed engineered these laws of samsara and are using them against us.. we are inundated constantly with their negative press.. for instance we want Roberts files during the Iran Contra era.. where he was directly involved in a situation that resulted in a world wide cocaine epidemic financed by a WAR.
that is spun out of existence by negative emotions.. reasoning ends and they puff themselves up as the "Wronged Ones".

how do you fight that crap.. by joining it, doing it, empathy..?
they stoled elections!! Blackwell obstructed and threw the election in Ohio.. how can you empathize with that

the people that they are using and controlling through nefarious mind control techniques.. you can empathize with.. but unfortunately they are caught up in a Circular Apriori logical loop.. and you can no longer communicate with them.. whatever is input, wherever.. the same conclusion is come to.. it is really a sweet system to control people with if you are Evil.. That is what Rush does.. that is all he does is condition peoples minds into this Loop... then feeds the intolerance and keeps out the stray positive thought.

[ibegurpard]

17. All the time

However, being able to empathize with another's position changes nothing about my willingness to support those positions.

[Booster]

18. On accassion, but I do think that I and most everyone at DU does

try to think things out a little better than freepers - notice I said most. I also believe there are Republicans who try and think things out, but the ones at free repug just jump in with their hate and vitrol rants. We're all probably more alike than not alike, but I can't even read the posts at that other place; their minds are much more shut than ours - just my opinion.

[earth mom]

23. They have ZERO empathy for others...

what you propose is not possible.

FYI-Rethugs are the problem-Dems have done nothing wrong!

Why should I bend over backwards to feel any empathy or have any understanding for sociopathic rethug fundie freepers?! They don't care if people are homeless due to mental illness or just bad luck; they hypocritically pretend to care about unborn children but give a rats ass about foster children; they care less that good paying jobs are being lost so that corporate america can reap more profits to pay them, their rich stockholders; they get off on killing Iraqi citizens because the hate them for their religion since we all know the Iraqis had nothing to do with 911; last but not least they force their morals on others while they have zero morals of their own not to mention any ethics!

Sorry, but these sociopathic rethug fundie freepers have stood far too long on their superior perch looking down on others that are different than they are while making gross assumptions and unfair judgements about anyone who is "other". They are consumed by greedy egomanical racist sociopathic attitudes that defy what it means to be human.

So, NO-HELL NO-I have no empathy, understanding, kindness or pity for rethugs, fundies, freepers, assholes. Based on their attitudes and actions, they all deserve to FRY in HELL! Their Jesus will judge them harshly in their final moments, make no mistake about that! Payback is a bitch, isn't it?! :grr:

:rant:

[The Witch]

24. Let me clarify.

Empathy is not sympathy. Empathy is seeing things from someone else's point of view; sympathy is more like pity.

Empathy is *useful.* You can use it to your advantage.

When I say I'm thinking of a new kind of dialog, well, the reason I haven't debuted said dialog yet is because it's still being formed. But it's not "awwww, let's talk." It's something different. I will talk more about it when I feel I can.

[Pacifist Patriot]

28. Sympathy and empathy are frequently misunderstood.

I have found in on-line debates over the years that some people use them interchangeably, some people have the meanings backwards and some people have no idea what empathy is...other than something Deanna Troi from Star Trek can do. ;-)

I wonder which is easier -- sympathy or empathy. That might make a good discussion some time.

Cheers!

[seabeyond]

25. of course. and i think we are pretty good and put a lot of effort

as a board to do exactly that. often. there are examples of it. part of who the dem is. the majority here i would say, always diehards who dont. and that is cool too, cause, i understand where they are coming from, lol

[The Great Deceiver]

26. I do

Mostly when I read accounts, here and elsewhere, of people encountering republicans in the office or in thier neighborhoods and confronting them. I never have experiences like this; It seems I am never meeting Bush supporters.

I would love to because I would very much like to get inside thier heads and try to figure out what tools of reasoning they're using, if any.

But, yes, I do sometimes have empathy for VOTERS who support bush because they're so woefully misinformed. Now, Republican Politicians? That's where I draw the line. Those fuckers are bald-faced liars, crooks, and criminals and I would gleefully watch them carted out of the white house in cuffs and shackles.