A problem with liberals

[Kalish]

For starters, I consider myself a liberal or progressive or whatever the hell the latest word is, bottom line is I've never voted Republican in my life.

But some liberals will go out of their way to defend Castro and find ways to justify the many excesses and wrongs of his regime.

And these same liberals will not cut the founders of our country any slack, will not even acknowledge that they did a lot of good but were caught up within larger historical forces at time. They were just 'slave holders' and 'hypocrites', etc.

That kind of thinking is IMO really wrong, and really lame.

ON EDIT: the problem with this kind of thinking is that not only is over simplistic and wrong, it has alienated us from our very country. We've abandoned the founders to the other side. When in actuality, if you go back and read about them, and read their words, you'd find we, as liberals or whatever, have A HELL of a lot in common with them philosophically. But we've abandoned them to the right wing. It's a shame really. And it infuriates me.

[Kraklen]

1. LOL.

:popcorn:

[newsguyatl]

2. you say you're liberal?

[Kalish]

4. you bet

damn straight I am.

[newsguyatl]

8. i can tell

[Kalish]

15. good

although I realize you are being sarcastic. so be it. I absolutely believe that my point holds and stands on its own.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kalish]

11. nice personal attack

you're real 'intellectual'...

I suspect I struck a nerve because what I say is essentially very true. And the existence of this truth is pathetic and lame.

[dave502d]

16. cat_girl25,Sometime you sound like a Lion, I don't mean anything bad n/t

[Bouncy Ball]

5. I'm more liberaler than you.

So there.

:popcorn:

(While we do have certain basic beliefs that we share, liberals don't usually take well to being told what arguments they can and cannot employ. repukes, on the other hand, LIVE for being given their talking points. It's easier than thinking.)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

10. Hey stranger!

:hi:

Too easy, I tell ya, too easy!

[Bouncy Ball]

12. Too easy!

Hey dere!

:hi:

[bloom]

19. LOL

:D

[Kathy in Cambridge]

6. HAHAHAHAHA

:popcorn:

This should be good...

[gumby]

7. Since you don't know "whatever the hell" you are,

it's perfectly clear that you don't know "whatever the hell" you're talking about.

edit: forgot to add :popcorn:

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. So you're not a minister who subscribes to liberation theology?

[Kalish]

14. I'm not religious particularly

I consider myself a Deist, like most of our Founders were.

[Kurovski]

13. I've not yet seen any of the shit you write about, but

4 more years on DU and I might.

[WeirdOne]

17. We shouldn't put the founders on a pedestal either,

They guaranteed the rights of white male land owners, nobody else. We realize they gave us a good start, but we shouldn't overlook their flaws either.

Edit: Why don't we discuss the points he makes instead of attacking him?

[Kalish]

21. Personally I think if you read about them

they should be considered as very great people. Not perfect. But great in many many ways.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

What have you read? Please name the books.

:-)

[Bouncy Ball]

30. Not perfect.

Exactly. So there's something against the law about talking about their faults?

:rofl:

Saying they aren't perfect, talking about their faults, doesn't take away from the great part. Not at all.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

36. Using facts is now America-hating, dontcha know!

:crazy:

But I use 'negative' facts! :rofl:

[Kalish]

46. that's not it

I'm talking about writing them off as bad or evil people and then cherry pickin' the facts you want to support that conclusion.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

51. I would say you did the same thing, but I haven't seen you present

ONE FACT since you've been here.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

23. Maybe you should see what he wrote on other threads

before you jump to his defense. :-)

[Bouncy Ball]

32. I just did!

It was very enlightening!

Though I confess I didn't read all 200+, I read enough to get a good feel.

[Kalish]

47. Yeah I wrote real 'bad things'

give me a friggin' break.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

55. Not bad. Just ignorant.

Like I said, you have a lot of reading ahead of you. are you in College?

[Beaverhausen]

18. All liberals aren't going to agree with each other

just as all conservatives don't agree.

I don't really get your point. :shrug:

[dogday]

20. Chill out and take your medicine

[SmokingJacket]

22. Yeah, well "some" conservatives drag black people behind trucks...

The bulk of liberals, in real life and on DU, respect the founders of the country, though know that they were as imperfect as any human.

Defending Castro? Haven't seen that.

[Baclava]

24. Discuss:

(PLEASE PRINT LEGIBLY - yes, this is a test)

[dogday]

27. Here Kitty Kitty Kitty

[gumby]

45. Pancake Rodent?

:rofl: :rofl:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. "I like Fidel Castro and his beard." - Bob Dylan

Perhaps you should apply the same criteria to Fidel that you apply to the founders:

"And these same liberals will not cut the founders of our country any slack, will not even acknowledge that they did a lot of good but were caught up within larger historical forces at time."

They did a lot of good. So has Fidel.

[Kraklen]

28. LOL, if Castro was American...

I'm sure he would.

[Kalish]

35. You presume

I'm not attacking Castro, this isn't about him.

But to write off our founders as evil people like I've seen liberals do and in fact just happened to me in another thread...well it's wrong, it's lame and it's pathetic.

[Bouncy Ball]

42. Please post a quote from this thread

where the founders were described as "evil people."

Thanks!

Oh and you mentioned Castro. It was exactly half of your argument in your OP. So it does seem to be at least half about him.

:shrug:

[Bouncy Ball]

26. Over 200 posts in 48 hours gets my attention.

I found out you are kind of fascinated with the Koran, AQ, terrorism, etc. What sources do you read from on these topics?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4204403

[Kraklen]

31. Don't forget the man-hating lesbians.

The problem with man-hating lesbians, now let me first say that I'm a man-hating lesbian, but the problems with man-hating lesbians is...

[Bouncy Ball]

33. Man-hating lesbians? LOL! Where?

:D

[Kraklen]

38. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4205193

[Bouncy Ball]

50. Wow that was.....interesting.

:rofl:

[WeirdOne]

37. A lost sheeple can still find his way to the DU flock

[Kraklen]

39. They sure can.

In fact, he admits that France saved America.

[seabeyond]

29. i havent heard a lot of attack on founding fathers here. how much

of a problem is it

[Bouncy Ball]

34. I'm scratching my head at the whole post.

Wondering what set it off.

[Kraklen]

44. That was me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4210653&mesg_id=4215297

[Kalish]

43. a minor problem, but annoying and a symptom of

something bigger...

I've had it happen to me on serveral occasions. I don't go around talking about the foudners much, but I've been doing a lot of reading about them and of their own words too. Thus, I've been bringing them up far more often than I would have prior. And I've encountered a real dismissive even at times hostile attitude towards them from some liberals. I encountered it here on DU today.

[Bouncy Ball]

52. IT'S BECAUSE WE HATE AMERICA AND WE EAT BABIES

FOR BREAKFAST AND WE DRINK THE BLOOD OF VIRGINS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT IN THE WOODS WITH DAY-GLO PAINT ON OUR FACES!!!!!!!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

56. ...

:spray:

YOU FERGOT THAT WE'RE ALL QUEER AND COMMIES TOO!!!!

[seabeyond]

54. i dont have issue with founding fathers

much of what the right say, the founding fathers say or mean, isnt right



Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

- Thomas Jefferson

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

- Thomas Jefferson

The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

- John Adams

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

-James Madison

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

-James Madison

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

-Thomas Paine

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (the Apocalypse), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814



The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter... But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789

They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
Patrick Henry has been quoted as saying that, but as to the context, and the source I am not sure.
Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. A Deist according to Webster's is (1) The belief in the existence of a God on purely rational grounds without reliance on revelation or authority; especially in the 17th and 18th centuries. (2) The doctrine that God created the world and its natural laws, but takes no further part in its functioning. Thomas Jefferson wrote his own version of the Bible (The Jefferson Bible), of which I own a copy. It TOTALLY removes all accounts of the divinity of Christ and all of the miracles - including the virgin birth. Benjamin Franklin was raised Episcopalian, but was also a Deist. John Adams was raised a Congregationalist, but later became a Unitarian. Here are what some of the other founders had to say about it.

John Adams:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

John Adams again:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Still more John Adams:

“...Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”


Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

Jefferson again:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

From Jefferson’s biography:
“...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’”

James Madison:

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

James Madison again:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Thomas Paine:

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."

Finally, a word from Abraham Lincoln:


The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
-- Abraham Lincoln

[LittleClarkie]

40. Sort of a double standard

If Scarbourough were a Democrat, we'd be looking for reasons why an intern dying in a satellite office had nothing to do with him, and talking about how unfair the RW smear of him was.

If Rove were a Democrat, we would be talking about how an affair with someone was none of our business unless if affected the job at hand (:yoiks: Freud lives!
Every once in a while, I doubt the spin as spun here. Say for instance a bill before Congress. Boring though it may be, I should really read those myself, rather than depend on the spin from some.

The threads of thought that stitch together what passes for knowledge here sometimes look awfully flimsy to me.

[KG]

41. that poor Batista, now there was a liberals liberal!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

49. And that Shah was such a great, democratic ruler!

damn Islamofascists unseated the true government! :sarcasm:

[Dragonfli]

48. I had Castro over for lunch the other day....

All we did was talk shop, you know, communism and how to destroy the true christian religion, stuff like that.
In the middle of a particularly devious scheme we were plotting, it suddenly occurred to me that I should stop making all of those disparaging remarks about the founding fathers all the time.
Castro agreed, (I can be way too much of an asshole sometimes.)

Thanks Kalish for helping me to see what jerks we liberals can be. Your a liberal, so you know what I mean. (the initiation with the baby blood and all, you didn't like that any more than I did I bet.)

Maybe we can all become better people. Lets join the DLC and learn to be more righteous, like republicans, only without the supreme depth of character. Someday maybe, we can even be their equals!

I think I owe you my soul my good friend.
Rest assured, as a Pagan, I can make sure you receive 3 fold the energy you have just given me...

my gift to you - So mote it be.
May you live in interesting times!:smoke:

[Alcibiades]

53. The internet is big...

... it would be easy for you to find some of these supposed Castro-lovin', founding fathers hatin' liberals out there and give us a link or two or something, seeing as you're upset about them.

Personally, I cannot think of any major Castro-lovin', founding fathers hatin' liberal incidents in the news lately, so I'm not sure it's that big a problem.

You'll note that my sig line is Thos. Paine. British, but I think he should count as one of the FFs.

My favorite founding fathers are Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Washington and Francis Marion. Not all at the Constitutional Convention, I know, but I rather fancy all the patriots of that generation as founding fathers, don't you?

Plus, I think they'd make a pretty good basketball team, maybe even good enough for the ACC, with Washington at center and Marion and Jefferson as guards.

Plus, Francis Marion is from my native state of South Carolina, is a fellow Huguenot and had that cool Disney TV series starring leslie Nielsen in the late 1950's you can see early in the morning on the disney Channel! The theme was really cool:

Swamp Fox, Swamp Fox, tail in his hat,
Nobody know where the Swamp Fox at!
Swamp Fox, Swamp Fox, hides in the glen,
Runs away to fight again!

[Moderator]

57. Locking.

The original post appears inflammatory as well as continuing a debate from another thread in this one.