BREAKING!!! Jaques Cousteau Discovers Water is Wet!!!!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

and head of Minutemen discovers the Minutemen are a bunch of knuckledragging racists! ;)


Texas Minutemen head quits, cites racism in group


The head of the Texas Minuteman Civil Defense Corps has quit, saying he has been unable to overcome racism among members in Goliad.

National leaders say the resignation of Bill Parmley won't have any effect on the planned actions targeting illegal immigrants in Houston and other Texas cities this October.

However, they also acknowledge Parmley was a driving force in organizing that effort.

It was Parmley's idea to run operations in Houston targeting day laborers and the contractors who hire them. And Parmley, a petroleum geologist and landowner in Goliad County, bought the plane tickets to fly in national Minuteman leaders from Arizona last month to begin organizing efforts here.

Parmley said he has become concerned that some of the Minuteman activists in his region have a vendetta against the Goliad County sheriff, who is Hispanic.

He asserted they also have made comments about shooting illegal immigrants or letting them die from dehydration.

"That's their mind-set, and I don't want my name and my reputation associated with a group of people who are racist like that," he said.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3285468

[The Magistrate]

1. As The Song Says, Ma'am

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. You still here? :)

[The Magistrate]

4. Indeed, Ma'am

The machine is mine tonight....

[Kingshakabobo]

41. Yes, yes it does. n/t

[skids]

3. Well,

...at least now we know one of the Minuteman group was altruistic. :eyes:

[BuyingThyme]

5. They're not racists;

they just want to hunt human beings and get some fresh air.

[Bouncy Ball]

6. Oh. My. God.

TARGETING them in HOUSTON???

Whatever happened to patroling the border and keeping their racist ways just on the border? Now they are going into Houston and TARGETING illegal aliens?

Literally, or what?

Sheeeeeeeeesh.

[Gold Metal Flake]

64. If you patrol the illegals in Houston....

...it's easier to also write down the license plate numbers of anyone with a Democratic, liberal or otherwise not 100% *co bumper sticker.

[mcctatas]

7. Now if only there could be a "moment of clarity" epidemic among

everyone associated with ANY group whose mind-set and or actions are morally bankrupt, no one would ever vote for a neo-con whack job ever again!!! Nice find by the way!:toast:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. I'm still waiting for alleged progressives here to get that moment of

clarity ;)

[ulysses]

11. ...and still waiting...

:hi:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. Can you picture my utter glee in seeing this story in print?

:evilgrin:

[ulysses]

26. vividly.

:D

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. kick

[KarenInMA]

10. The minutemen project is not evil

It may have evil people who are in it, but what is it's goal?

Keep our border safer. Keep people from dying on the way over. Keep people from suffering abuse from employers because they're "illegal". Force said employers to hire people at a living wage.

Force bush to change his immigrtion/border security policy, which is a failed policy.

[ProfessorGAC]

12. Our Border Safer?

Safer than what? Safe from what? When did we become such vertebrally challenged in america?
The Professor

[KarenInMA]

13. Say you were a terrorist, and you wanted to come to the US.

But you didn't have the proper papers. Well, that's ok. the border between mexico and the Us, and the us and canda are wiiiide open.

now, say you're not a terrorist. Say your a south american drug lord. You probably wouldn't have your drug mules go through canada, but they sure could wander into the US pretty easily.

Now, say you want to run guns into the US... you see my point?

[ulysses]

14. so why aren't these numbnuts on the northern border too?

:shrug:

[KarenInMA]

15. Because the live in Arizona. personally, I think

people in Michigan should do the same, until we do something about the problem.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

19. No, actually lots of the minutemen came in from other states

Just to be good ol' patriots and defend us from the evil evil illegals.

[ProfessorGAC]

21. You're Still Not Defining "The Problem"

You have bought the illusion of a problem. You are seeking a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
The Professor

[jonnyblitz]

24. wrong! they came from everywhere and they picked arizona

because they are racist and don't like mexicans.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

27. They were crowing the fact that they came from everywhere quite loudly

As some sort of feeble evidence of national support.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

31. I've been to DOUGLAS Arizona..trust me..NOBODY lives in that hell hole

HEck..you could fit the entire AZ population into the city of LA

[ProfessorGAC]

20. Nope. Don't See It

Belaboring the obvious doesn't make a point any clearer.

The facts are that we have had a handful of terrorist attacks on U.S. soil. 75% of them were committed by U.S. citizens, who were white males.

The others were from folks who were here legally. Not one of them came over the mexican border. Not one!

Drugs are not smuggled into this country by one route. Neither are guns. We all know the high volume drug traffic has actually used techniques as involved as bailing out of a small plane. Letting it crash in a remote area, and recovering the shipment. So, the border has nothing to do with that.

So, the danger is an illusion, rooted in xenophobia.
The Professor

[Mythsaje]

73. Not to mention

bribing border guards, corrupting whole police forces in coastal communities, and working in cahoots with the CIA when the black bag operations are having a little cash-flow difficulty.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. So how many Mexican terrorists were on those planes?

And our entire drug policy is fucked up which is how drug lords exist in the first place. Pointing guns at Mexicans isn't going to help that..it is only going to make the drug lords respond with more violence...do you really think hired contract killers are going to be afraid of a bunch of out of shape white men?

[MisterP]

68. not to mention about 1/2 the illegal immigrants are from other Latin

American countries (death squads, banana republics, Nazis in charge of official torture programs, cash crops); Mexico hasn't escaped the (gamma-ray) Light of the Americas either: the last Pres not to be an IMF Pirate was Echeverria, whose Potemkin populism didn't mask the small lake of blood he bathed in

[jonnyblitz]

18. vigilantism is NOT something progressives should be for

no matter what.

[fishwax]

35. Absolutely right! (n/t)

[KarenInMA]

37. Wow. Nice to see you use Bush's catch phrase.

Good job.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

42. What catch phrase is that?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. Sorry. PRotecting the border is fine with me. A bunch of Mexican haters

pretending they are patriotic is not.

[KarenInMA]

32. "a bunch of mexican haters"

What do you think the actual border patrol is? Sensitivity trainers?

And the border is NOT protected, because the businesses that give * soooo much money, depend on illegal labor to keep costs down.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. I can tell you've never been to a border

The actual border patrol consists of people of all races. Many are Mexicans. I go past border patrol several times a month.

The border IS protected and needs more resources, but there is a GREAT BIG BORDER at the top and bottom of this nation. It is not economically feasible NOR prudent to set humans every inch of it.

Yes businesses hiring people here illegally is the problem..but have you ever researched how many times they've paid sanctions? Not near enough..and what about Wal Mart? They paid 11 million dollars for being caught red handed...that amounts to ONE HOUR OF WAL MART profits...so yeah...if existing laws were vigorously pursued before we allowed a bunch of (now admitted) bigots to play Sheriff Clarke out in the desert, both of us might be a bit more satisfied.

[Kenneth ken]

67. ps

in addition to the great big border at the top and bottom, we have great big borders on the east side and west side too; so setting humans every inch of it is even less feasible than you've stated.

Granted, it's a bit tougher to get a boat and come via water, but there are still many who do come that way - boatloads of people, in fact. :)

Truly the only way to undercut illegal immigration is, as you stated, clamp down on businesses doing the hiring of illegal immigrants. It's also the humane thing to do, because the employers are so abusive to the illegally hired.

:hi: :pals:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

72. All very good points

[jonnyblitz]

16. it's pretty fucking sad when this didn't matter to the DU apologists

who championed these racists assholes yet it caused the leader of the group to quit.

[KarenInMA]

30. I am not a racist. Far from it.

Let me ask you, do you think being an illegal immigrant in the southwest is a good life? Do you think it's fair to the legal citizens when they can't get a job because the evil employers will pay an illegal half of what they'd need to pay someone else? Do you think we should just let the "snakehandlers" (or whatever), stick 20 people in a truck, some might live some might not.

DO you think it's fair for illegal immigrants to come here and not contribute to the tax base? To use hospitals, schools, roads etc, while there aren't paying taxes? that puts a HUGE strain on the people who do pay taxes?

Do you think employers should get away with forcing illegals to work long hours with little pay and no Workman's comp insurance?

I think we should double LEGAL immigration from Mexico, and do more to stop illegal immigration.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

34. A report came out that said illegals are NOT a strain on health system

Not only that, but there was one state that actually sued companies that hired illegals. Why not fight those that hire illegals instead of the poor people coming here because they are desperate?

[KarenInMA]

36. I'd be happy to. let's do that.

Let's address the problem from the supply end and the demand end.

I'd be happy to help people from other countries, as soon as everyone in THIS country has health care and food.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

39. But the minutemen AREN'T doing that...not even close...not even as a side

project. What they are doing is terrorizing desperate people.

[noiretextatique]

71. non sequitur

the reason everyone in this country doesn't have health care and food is not because of people from other countries.

[charlie]

48. Fine goals, all

But I've seen nary a concern for the welfare of illegals in the country from the Minutemen sites. If you look at their About page, you get this absurdly apocalyptic screed:

It is a call to bring national awareness to the decades-long careless disregard of effective U.S. immigration law enforcement. It is a reminder to Americans that our nation was founded as a nation governed by the "rule of law", not by the whims of mobs of ILLEGAL aliens who endlessly stream across U.S. borders.

Accordingly, the men and women volunteering for this mission are those who are willing to sacrifice their time, and the comforts of a cozy home, to muster for something much more important than acquiring more "toys" to play with while their nation is devoured and plundered by the menace of tens of millions of invading illegal aliens.

Future generations will inherit a tangle of rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures with no common bond to hold them together, and a certain guarantee of the death of this nation as a harmonious "melting pot."

The result: political, economic and social mayhem.

Historians will write about how a lax America let its unique and coveted form of government and society sink into a quagmire of mutual acrimony among the various sub-nations that will comprise the new self-destructing America.

http://www.minutemanhq.com/project/AboutMMP.html

[jonnyblitz]

61. one more time. VIGILANTiSM is NOT the ANSWER!!

jesus fucking christ.

[VelmaD]

69. Newsflash...illegals do pay taxes...

on every itme they purchase. They don't get out of paying sales texes just because they're here illegally. And if they rent a place to live, then their rent goes toward the owner paying property taxes. So how about giving the old "they don't pay taxes" nonsense a rest.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

17. Let's see if this post draws the minutemen defenders out of the woodwork

Or if they'll just wait for another "illegals are destroying the world" thread.

[ProfessorGAC]

23. It Already Has

The Professor

[jonnyblitz]

29. it takes awhile to crawl out from under rocks. nt

[KarenInMA]

33. Can you not engage in civilized debate?

Is that it?

[ProfessorGAC]

38. Can You?

As soon as someone points out that your logic is flawed, you got defensive. Perhaps you should do more introspection and make sure that your opinion is rooted in sound logic and data. Then, you could take criticism without being defensive.
The Professor

[KarenInMA]

43. I was just called a racist and an aplogist.

You are right. That made me denfensive.

I think we need to secure our borders. I think Bush won't because of the money and support he recieves from companies that hire and abuse illegal aliens.

I think people in the southwest are adversly affected by illegal aliens doing menial work for lower pay, and they are a drain on social services. They do not pay taxes, and they sadly, have no protection.

I am in favor of Immunity for all of those here. Very much in favor. I am in favor of opening the borders to more immigrants coming here LEGALLY. I am not in favor of allowing the current system to stand.

[ProfessorGAC]

49. Secure Them From What?

I responded to the other post & told you that your facts are in error and that the need to secure the border is an illusion. You avoided that completely. I never called you a racist, but i want to know what you're so afraid of. The borders not being sealed like a Berlin Wall are not the reason we have a single terrorist attack. There is not one shred of evidence to support otherwise.

Yet, you got defensive because i disagreed with you. I didn't call you anything. I just told you your information was flawed.
The Professor

[Kraklen]

65. If it steps like a goose...

Pardon me, but I'm very nervous about paramilitary vigilante groups scapegoating ethnic immigrant populations.

[Kingshakabobo]

46. Here f-cking Here!!

:applause:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. I can engage in civil debate but I won't tolerate people defending bigots

especially when the subject at hand is a news story wherein their opwn leader acknowledges that he was leading a group of racists. The last time this subject came up people defended the Minutemen while ignoring the racist history of their leader at the time - Chris Simcox. If Chris Simcox were David Duke, every single Minuteman defender on DU would be pushing up cyber daisies by now. I will never defend the KKK and I will never defend the Mintutemen.

YOu want to talk about better border protection, then fine..but as I noted above...you really have to know a bit more than you do now to debate that with me. I KNOW the California/ Arizona border quite well.

[KarenInMA]

50. Ok, so what's your solution?

Bush is doing nothing. as someone (might have been you) pointed out, Walmart (evil) payed one hours' worth of profit when they were caught.

As I said before: the IDEAL of the minuteman project is a good one. The peole might not be. Yoy won't see me defending racists, but I want people to acknowledge that illegal immigration is a problem.

[ProfessorGAC]

51. DEFINE THE PROBLEM!

You keep saying it's a problem, but when asked for specifics you offer none! When you tried, you were shown to be wrong. Yet you keep tossing out some undefined "problem".

Be specific. What is the problem with illegal immigration that vigilantes at the border solves?
The Professor

[KarenInMA]

52. The problem, as I see it

Is that people are coming the US and doing jobs for less money than US citizens. This hurts:

1- the people out of a job
2- the illegales who have no rights or protections because they become part of an undergound society.
3-our security, because people can and will and have bring guns and drugs into the US in this manner


Now, I support, as I've said, expanding immigration to mexico and the concept of immunity- everyone here gets to stay here. Then we should crack down, hard, on companies that hire illegals, and do are best to stop them from comming in.

Here's what I think the Minutemen are doing: focusing attention on the problem. That is the first step to getting some sort of solution. Also, this is splitting the Republicans, and I really like that.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. People don't HAVE to bring guns into the US..documented white male

American citizens are doing fine spreading dangerous weapons around at gun shows and militia meetings.

The Minutemen are not focusing on the real problems they are scapegoating

[ProfessorGAC]

55. Fair Enough! I Completely Disagree, However

I'm one who likes to see data to define a problem. I don't believe there is a shred of data to support 1 & 3. The deaths of those trying to breach the border is sufficient data to support #2.

Mexican nationals have been breaching the border since the early 1900's looking for work. Yet, in the 20th century, the rise of the American Middle Class is unprecedented in world economic history. That would indicate the there is no causative link between illegal immigration and unemployment.

The guns and bombs are already here! Closing the borders solves nothing.

Remember that your first argument was the exact same thing that was said about the first three major waves of LEGAL immigrants in the 1850's, 1880, and just after WWI. It was proven wrong then, and it will be proven wrong again.

The Professor

[KarenInMA]

57. Ok, but why can't we have them come in legally,

so they can intergrate into society? Why have them sneak in?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

58. Because our immigration laws allow high tech people to be imported

while disproportionately allowing Mexicans to emigrate here. The numbers themselves of immigrants allowed in the US are disproportionately skewed to allow more Asians than people in the country right next door to us. Also..if you look at the figures, families are called undocumented when their children were born here which makes the children legal and the parents ILLEGAL.

[ProfessorGAC]

59. That's OK By Me

But, vigilanteism is neither the solution nor is it effective.

The numbers have not changed, per the USIS, and CDC statistics, since these hooligans moved to the border. So, they're accomplishing nothing. On top of that, it turns out that some are just bigoted yahoos.

So, if it's not working, it's attracting a bad element, and it's not solving any other problems, why defend these people?

The attention to be called on whatever issues are extant is not well served by ignorant buffoons playing "human hunter" on our border.
The Professor

[jonnyblitz]

62. whatever immigration problems there might be

I most certainly don't expect people who post and frequent a progessive discussion board to be supportive of armed neo-nazi's and Klan members on the border as the solution. THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING!!!I don't find that too difficult of a concept .

[NickB79]

66. You don't believe there is evidence drugs come across the southern border?

The previous poster said in point #3 guns and drugs are one problem with a poorly guarded border. The guns issue I don't really see either, but drug-running is a major issue along the US-Mexico border, is it not?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

70. So how many drug runners did the minutemen stop?

There are indeed drug running problems. It is foolish to send untrained people in to deal with professional mules. Furthermore, our drug policies CREATE many of those problems.

I am not saying there is not a border problem in this country, but the Minutemen are not there to stop drugs. They are there (as is now witnessed by their own leader) out of racist feelings and an attempt to scapegoat others.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. Read this then we'll talk. No..vigilantes will never solve this

http://www.urban.org/Template.cfm?NavMenuID=24&template=/TaggedContent/ViewPublication.cfm&PublicationID=8685

NUMBERS, ORIGINS, AND DESTINATIONS

* Total number: Our best estimate, based on the March 2002 Current Population Survey and other data sources, is that there are 9.3 million undocumented immigrants in the country.1 They represent 26 percent of the total foreign-born population

.
* Countries of origin: Mexicans make up over half of undocumented immigrants—57 percent of the total, or about 5.3 million. Another 2.2 million (23 percent) are from other Latin American countries. About 10 percent are from Asia, 5 percent from Europe and Canada, and 5 percent from the rest of the world.
* Distribution by state: Almost two-thirds of the undocumented population lives in just six states: California (26 percent), Texas (12 percent), Florida (10 percent) New York (8 percent), Illinois (4 percent), and New Jersey (4 percent) . But, the most rapid growth in the undocumented population since the mid-1990s has been outside these states.
* States where the undocumented represent high shares of the immigrant population: The undocumented make up more than 40 percent of the foreign-born population in 10 states—most of which saw their foreign-born populations grow rapidly during the 1990s. High-growth regions are the Rocky Mountains, the Midwest, and the Southeast. The undocumented populations of Arizona, Georgia, and North Carolina have grown so rapidly that they may already have surpassed New Jersey's

.

http://www.urban.org/Template.cfm?NavMenuID=24&template=/TaggedContent/ViewPublication.cfm&PublicationID=8628
LABOR FORCE

* Number of undocumented persons in the labor force: About 6 million undocumented are working—representing about 5 percent of U.S. workers. This group is potentially eligible for temporary legal status under the Bush administration's plan.
* Labor force participation of undocumented immigrants: Virtually all undocumented men are in the labor force. Their labor-force participation rate (96 percent) exceeds that of men who are legal immigrants or who are U.S. citizens because undocumented men are younger and less likely to be disabled, retired, or in school.

Undocumented women are less likely to be in the labor force (62 percent) than undocumented men or than women who are U.S. citizens. One reason is that proportionately more undocumented women are of childbearing age, and undocumented women are more likely than U.S. citizens to have children and remain in the home.
* Low-wage workers: Undocumented workers earn considerably less than working U.S. citizens. About two-thirds of undocumented workers earn less than twice the minimum wage, compared with only one-third of all workers. Undocumented workers make up less than 10 percent of the 43 million low-wage workers in the United States.

FAMILIES AND CHILDREN

* Shares of men and women: Contrary to public perception, women make up a substantial share—41 percent—of the adult undocumented population. There are about 4.5 million undocumented men (18 and over) and 3.2 million undocumented women.
* Children of undocumented immigrants in the United States: About 1.6 million children under 18 in the United States are themselves undocumented immigrants. Another 3 million children with undocumented parents are U.S. citizens because they were born here. Current proposals that would require workers to return to their sending countries after six years would thus affect both undocumented and U.S. citizen children.


KEY FINDINGS:

* Immigrants compose an increasingly large share of the U.S. labor force and a growing share of low-wage workers. Immigrants are 11 percent of all U.S. residents, but 14 percent of all workers and 20 percent of low-wage workers.
* Immigrants' hourly wages are lower on average than those for natives, and nearly half earn less than 200 percent of the minimum wage—versus one-third of native workers.
* Immigrant workers are much more likely than natives to drop out of high school (30 versus 8 percent), and are far more likely to have less than a ninth-grade education (18 versus 1 percent).
* Three-fourths of all U.S. workers with less than a ninth-grade education are immigrants.
* Nearly two-thirds of low-wage immigrant workers do not speak English proficiently, and most of these workers have had little formal education.
* Two of every five low-wage immigrant workers are undocumented. Labor force participation is higher among undocumented men than among men who are legal immigrants or U.S. citizens.
* While the low-wage native labor force is mainly female (59 percent), men dominate the low-wage immigrant labor force (56 percent).
* Even though they are less likely to participate in the labor force, female immigrant workers are better educated and more likely to be in the United States legally than male immigrants.
* Foreign-born women earn substantially lower wages than either foreign-born men or native women.
* Although immigrants dominate a few low-wage occupations—farming and private household workers—immigrants in these occupations represent a small share of all low-wage foreign-born workers.

[jonnyblitz]

60. not with apologists for racist assholes. sorry

[dogday]

44. The sad thing about this is they will be arresting the

guys who are trying to work as opposed to the ones that are not and are living off some program....These guys stand on the corners every day waiting for someone to come by and need extra help. It is good for them and good for the guy who is hiring as well....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. Studies demonstrate that immigrants (legal or not) mostly CONTRIBUTE

to the economy rather than the reverse. The largest swath of welfare recipients in this country are single mothers...perhaps if people were really interested in protecting our precious resources, they'd focus on the real issues.

[wtmusic]

56. Terrific

saves a lot of time and effort when these groups self-destruct

:popcorn:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

63. LOL

[Maestro]

74. And to continue this conversatin, take a look at this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4223611&mesg_id=4223611