Why does class warfare get such a bad rap here?

[Jamison]

I was wondering this because I have always thought that one of the core values of our party was to stand up for the poor, working class, and the American worker in general. Lately, however I have seen some DU members post some replies in threads that are nearly FReeper-like. In a nutshell some have basically said that standing up for the poor and bashing corporate America is class warfare, and they made it sound like a negative term.

Here are some examples from replies in threads that I have seen, although I didn't bookmark 'em, but I jotted them down on a pad & paper:

- "The minimum wage does not need to be raised, doing that would be detrimental to the economy."

- "Corporate leaders like Bernard Ebbers and Ken Lay have been punished too harshly."

- "What have the poor contributed to society anyway? They aren't the ones out there running businesses that hire people & create growth in the economy."

- "This labor split within the Union was inevitable. Unions are antiquated institutions that we no longer need."

Do these statements make me angry? Oh yes. Do they make me want to tell people posting this stuff to get the f*ck out and go over to freerepublic.com? Actually no.

I realize that everyone here came to DU for a certain reason or two. Some of you are here because you support a women's right to choose, and wish to defend that. Others of you are here because you have a loved one, or know someone who's serving in the armed forces overseas who has their life on the line everyday in a conflict you do not believe in. There are those of you here who are Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim that fear the rise of a radical right-wing Christian theocracy, and want to make sure your right to freedom of religion stays intact.

For me, the big reason I am here is because I believe in standing up for the poor and for worker's rights. I have an uncle who worked for WorldCom who saw nearly all of his retirement nest egg vanish. I have intelligent and talented friends who have bachelor's and even master's degrees in various fields who are having to resort to working in retail, waiting tables, etc. because of this poor economy, so yes I'm personally affected.

I just wish issues like in the above posted paragraph would be taken a little more seriously here sometimes and that people would not be so fast to call out "class warfare."

Excuse the rant.:rant:

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Becaue this class warfare is not a reality for most americans

class consciousness, to use Mark's analysis, is completely absent, thank US Schools and Colleges...

[Maru Kitteh]

6. Damn.......... would be nice if that applied in my town

Q. You know who is getting screwed the WORST by republican policies?

A. The red states that vote for them.

You are right about one thing here, thanks to the fact that we have almost no unions in the red states, we have no class warfare. Everybody who works hard for a living KNOWS they'll be robbed and screwed by their wealthy masters.

Most of our kids also have no insurance, health care, or dreams of college.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. now look back at history and tell me what

two periods of history that reminds you off (Ok maybe three)

If you read your history, to be crass, Slavery...

the 1880s in the US

In some ways, Tsiarist Russia...

None of this changed until some class consciousness was raised.

Slavery... it was mostly an upper class northern phenomena that did not lead to theoretical equality until them northern white boys got involved in the Train Rides of the 1960s, we may need something smilier today, for union organizing.

The 1880s, the Gilded Age, the union movement started with immigrants from Europe who had a class consciousness and read Marx, or at least were cognizant of the idea that the employer was not a friend

Tsiarist Russia, against it took the kids from the large towns to go down and create havoc

Each had different results... but it does tell me that we may be overdue for another series of buss rides... alas today that may be very dangerous, but freedom ain't cheap, if you what I mean

[wli]

32. freedom won't be cheap, no

I anticipate a lot of dead poor people gunned down by riot police running amok (after, of course, staged provocation incidents), and 50 million or more in prison (and millions slaughtered while in prison for refusing forced labor) before the corporate fascists cave.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Or a mass movement

with people being gunned before they rush the WH... Caucescu comes to mind... the anger is building, now we need to raise a consciousness

[wli]

37. that's not particularly realistic

There's no geographic tie to a particular building or area. This is not Ceaucescu being dealt with. Any particular area can be fled (in fact, it's not entirely implausible they could literally stay airborne or in an aircraft carrier effectively forever). A 100 million man march on Washington, D.C. won't really do anything like what happened with Ceaucescu.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. What is realistic is that we don't know how this will play int the end

and it may play many ways, but a truism of the military is, you have power as long as they are willing to give it to you... the moment the troops decide they are not gonna follow, you are on your own buddy... we will reach that moment, sooner or later and the road will be uniquely American

[wli]

44. absolutely true; it comes down to the military

When the people get pissed, will it be someone like Boykin or someone like Clark who decides what happens?

We don't know yet. But we know who has the guns, and they will ultimately call the shots.

Our only sign of hope thus far is that most of the forced retirees don't appear to be happy with neocons.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. You misunderstand

Leaders only have authority, real or imagined, as long as we give it to them.... when we decide they no longer have it, it goes poof. Whether that is a lowly LT in a combat zone or a head of state, same dif. It is more difficult with a head of state, but when it happens, it does extremely fast and in a very violent fashion many a times. 1974 the reason Nixon resigned, his party realized he no longer had that authority and basically demanded it from him... but it was not unlike a young LT who basically is told by the troops, "Sir, have fun charging that castle, we are all behind you Sir, well in the rear, have fun, remember write letters home... "

Of course there is also the deadly end to that Lt, you see Charlie came to the camp and threw seven hand grenades the damnest thing... or heads of state, Caucescu...

How this will end... for it will, is a good question, but the way they are pressing it will I am willing to bet with demonstrations in the streets... and then some. Oh and the poll numbers, Bush is quickly reaching the point of that LT, sir have fun storming the Castle...

[wli]

51. well, like I said

When it comes to a contest of arms, it's who has the guns.

We have to go the Ghandi route. There is no contest. They can kill us all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. I am sorry to say this but if they manage to kill 360+ million I

will be impressed, not even stalin managed that one.

Will some peoople die, regardless of how this plays out? I am betting it will happen. Here is my question to you, and I have answered this to myself in the affirmative, are you willing to pay the ultimate price?

[wli]

53. we don't have a 100% share of 360 million

The fact is the elderly, the disabled, the soccer moms, the young children, and numerous other groups aren't going much of anywhere. In fact, most of the country will sit it out, and no amount of proselytization will "mobilize" them. 33% would be a major miracle tantamount to the resurrection of Christ as it stands.

As far as paying the ultimate price, I'm already resigned to it. Whether it's the knock on the door at 3AM from the Homeland Offense Gestapo, lack of healthcare from Bushler's economic policies (dead in a few weeks without medicine), bombed in a Bushler MIHOP, or gunned down in a protest, I'm dead at Bushler's hands. I don't see myself making it long past dialysis (doomed to it happening eventually, and my bet is insurance won't cover it). If I survive Bushler I won't survive the impending economic collapse.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Dang. I would have said those quotes came from Freepertown

[Jamison]

8. You would think so

However IIRC those particular quotes were posted by members who had 1000+ posts, which would rule out trolls.

[Al-CIAda]

20. I have seen high post count trolls. ..but it IS class warfare

and the sooner we recognize this the better. The rich have declaired war on the poor, yet they are the first to yell 'class warfare!" Same as it ever was, accuse the Dems of their behavior.

[pocket]

3. it's baaaaaaaad

and scares the sheep

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. Some people are here because they are fucking trolls

I'd hit the alert on half of those quotes

[Lautremont]

5. Many deny there's any such thing as class, let alone a class war.

I don't know why, myself. To me it's a key issue; quite possibly the defining issue of the left end of the political spectrum.

[jonnyblitz]

7. because this board is infested with wingnuts nt.

[wli]

9. maybe it's time to declare class warfare

The upper class is already in undeclared class warfare against the lower classes. Time to strike back? Probably yes.

What's this mean? Probably demonstrations, protests, going on strike, etc., and getting some serious scrutiny of votes in the legislature.

Seriously. What are NAFTA, CAFTA, GATS, FTAA, etc. if not class warfare?

[Hardrada]

10. Yes but Bill Clinton was for them

so they're OK.

[wli]

12. it's the policies, not the politician

Even Bubba makes mistakes. Besides, he was saddled with a neofascist Congress.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. I say it is time for national strikes

[wli]

17. but that would take being organized!

And also few enough defectors to keep things from running remotely normally.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. a national strike that last for a couple of weeks

will nto be normal even with a few defectors

Now you cannot essencial services to participate for obviious reasons, but the rest of us, hell yes, time we organize and use our power.

[wli]

27. not "a couple of weeks," but until demands are met

Timetables are self-defeating.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. I'm being realistic

usually a national strike brings the country to a screeching halt and the corporations hate them

In france they usually last a couple days and they get what they want... the same goes for Italy, Here I think it will take a couple weeks due tot eh size of the economy and a lot of noise in the streets

[wli]

34. as an estimate of how long before they cave, okay, predetermined, no

Like I said, if it's known in advance how long the corporate fascists have to wait, then they will just wait that long. If a halt of the strike is conditional upon concessions from the corporate fascists, with no end EVER until those concessions are met, then it's plausible they'd cave early.

[democracyindanger]

14. I call bullshit.

Provide links. Until then, I call bullshit.

[Jamison]

18. no links

I didn't bookmark them, but believe what you wish.

[democracyindanger]

23. Fine. Then I believe 'bullshit.'

I've read threads that say liberals should eat kittens. Honest. "We should all prove our progressive values by eating baby cats." And it was by a poster with 1000+ posts. But I just wrote it down on a notepad, so I can't provide any links.

Why do liberals hate kittens?

[Tux]

15. Simple

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=106&topic_id=20301&mesg_id=20301

Want to know why conservatives think liberals are communists? Class warfare and standing up for workers. Let's enter the early 21st century and leave the late 19th behind.

We stand up for American employees and promote a prosperous economy for all. Wasn't that hard to say, was it?

[Maple]

16. It evokes images

of peasants milling around the castle with pitchforks and torches.

Or Bolsheviks storming the Palace and murdering the entire royal family.

Americans don't think of themselves as 'peasants' and the idea of 'warfare' in the streets is abhorrent. The Civil War was bad enough, and there is more than enough warfare going on right now as it is.

Why on earth would you WANT 'class warfare'??

[kineneb]

19. Got my pitchfork and sabotons at the ready

I can't wait to poke a bunch of rich Repubs in the butt with a nice pointy pitchfork. And pelt them with hard wooden shoes.

[Maple]

21. Well nobody else does

and nobody else ever will.

Haven't you got enough problems??

[Jamison]

24. I don't advocate "real" war

Such as killing, unless things got to the point to where they were in France during their revolutionary period.

I think I mostly meant standing up in a political way and for your beliefs.

[kineneb]

25. Actually would be relief from my problems...

Hubby has surgery on Monday to create a fistula in his arm so he can go on dialysis within six months; he has also been diagnosed with congestive heart failure. So chasing down rich bastards with a pitchfork might be cathartic and healing (at least for me). Sort of like pulling weeds in the garden, only on a grander scale.:)

[aquart]

26. Warfare would be shooting rich people. We don't.

We don't kidnap executives out of limousines, either. Or torch mansions.

We just don't. So it doesn't FEEL like warfare.

[Maple]

28. Well call a strike then

It will be as ignored as the protests were.

It's the wrong time, and the wrong era, for 'class warfare'

I don't agree with any of the statements in the original post, but no one's keen on storming the 'palace' with pitchforks either.

Good way to get shot.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. When the people are hungry and desperate enough

they will do that... and the people in power are slowly raising the pressure... they have no idea, precisely because you just said this is not the era, of what they are doing and will be just as surprising to them as to you when it happens.. but it is coming, sooner than you expect

[Maple]

35. It's not gonna happen

You seem to think millions and millions of Americans are starving and frantic, and upset about Iraq and CAFTA and Iran and London bombings...but they aren't.

Nobody is in any mood to 'rise up'.

Most Americans are middle class, and quite comfy.

They are at home barbequing and watching TV shows, enjoying summer and not interested in any 'revolution'

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. It will just give it time

I did not say it will happen tomorrow, but it will... yep for the moment they are content, not happy anymore, just content, but Suzie ain't gonna to collage because they cannot afford it anymore, and peter is now having so much dead out of college its not even funny, and dad, well he is no longer working with health insurance and mom, she cannot find a job... and this is how things start.... for the moment the girl in aruba is still working, but you do not know for how long, and hey there is this little matter around the water cooler, you may have heard of it Karl Rove, and that girl, yep she works for the cia, secretary I believe....

By the way, the ruling classes in Mexico believed the same in 1910... so did the ruling classes in Russia and many other places, oh the ruling classes in the UK around 1776...

[aquart]

39. That's the ironic part.

The New Deal was put in place to prevent pitchforks and burning the mansion and nasty guilotines.

As long as foodstamps keep pace with inflation, we're none of us hungry enough to turn into Chzechen rebels or whatever that was I just saw on Nightline.

But George wants to get rid of every safety net FDR put in place. Because he was nursing a hangover in his history and economics classes, he missed all those nervous-making stories of the French Revolution and a few other really nasty uprisings and their unpleasant effects upon rich people.

He's working hard to destroy his own class. Real genius, that George.

[earth mom]

36. Class warfare is going on in this country as we speak...

anyone who can't see that is a fool-that or a freeper who likes it that way.

Wrong era, my a$$. :rofl:

[Maple]

43. It ain't gonna happen

but if you think it can...'Come the Revolution' and 'aristocracy to the wall' and all that...go ahead and try it.

Call a national strike. See what happens.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Oh yes somebody reminded you of FDR and

his social programs to prevent precisely that... guess what George and his merry band are destroying as we speak? Nice cauldron they are building themselves...

[Maple]

46. Post it when it happens

because I'll miss it on the news otherwise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Oh that is for sure

they are not gonna tell you any of this on the eveneing news.. but that is what they are after, ALL SOCIAL SAFETY NETS

[Hardrada]

47. I agree with you.

Some posters make being smug and obtuse a real art form.

[Maple]

49. It's called realism

[julianer]

56. There is no time limit on

class war. It is a constant process.

You obviously don't understand what class warfare is if you think it only occurs at certain times.

Class war is a natural consequence of class society - you can only get rid of class warfare if you get rid of class society.

[wli]

29. not that I would ever condone it

But it could happen if people figured it out. We're going to have to keep some strict ethical standards on what goes on to avoid getting bombed and/or mass-imprisoned in retaliation (yes, the upper class can win by force).

[walldude]

38. Wow.. I'm surprised those quotes came from here...

and I do believe there's a class war going on. The people running the show can't really do anything for themselves. They don't create anything. They need people to cook and clean for them, they need people to build their houses, and fix their cars, and tend their lawns and gardens. To provide them with entertainment, to keep their computers running, and to quote George Carlin, "they need live babies so they can have dead soldiers." Someone's got to do all that work. The number of jobs in the lower paying service industries are growing while middle class paying jobs are being outsourced. The tax burden has shifted to the middle class, forcing them to lower their quality of life. It seems crazy but they have been working on this for years. Since Reagan. They got a scare when Clinton beat Daddy and then won again against the War Hero, so they fixed the 2000 election to make sure they had control again. It worked so well they did it again, and now they control everything.
Someone mentioned in another thread the other day that there should be an amendment to the Constitution to keep immediate family members from running for president within 20 years of each other. Thus keeping one administration from setting things up for the next creating in effect a dynasty. In hindsight it looks like a good idea to me..... :tinfoilhat:

[Nevernose]

42. "Class warfare" is codeword for "communism" or "socialism"

A little bit of socialism certainly woudn't hurt anything, but it makes it easy to demonize ideals. And maybe, since, socialism is a losing issue, avoiding anything overt it is a good idea politically.

Personally, i think repairing our education system would lead people to the logical idea, backed up by big business, that GASP! universal health care might actually be a good[/i idea.

[wli]

54. no, universal health care is not just a "good idea"

It's an actually-useful and highly effective replacement for "corporate welfare." Toyota didn't go to Canada because privatized healthcare is cheap, or because education is adequate.

[Nevernose]

55. So you agree with me then?

Except maybe I listed education as our number one priority (so people aren't so freaking stupid) and health care next?

[julianer]

57. No, it isn't

Class warfare is a way of describing presently existing circumstances - society is ordered for the benefit of one particular class to the detriment of the other.

Your idea seems to be that fighting back in the class war would be unpopular (it would be for the ruling class!) so we shouldn't do anything.

Repairing education or having a health care system are acts of class war - they demand the re-allocation of wealth for the benefit of the working class. That is why these things are so strongly resisted by the ruling class.

The ruling class have never had any stupid ideas about the class war being over - they are still fighting it as hard as they can and one of their tactics is to say the idea of class warfare is dead, so they can disarm the enemy!