Help me convince my brother he's a Democrat

[KarenInMA]

So my brother and I were talking last night, and the conversation (as, sadly all conversations with me do) turned to politics.

Quick background: My brother lives in NH, didn't vote :mad: in 2000 due to disgust with both candidates, and voted for Kerry in 2004 due to sheer and utter hatred of *.

*he say's he's prolife, but he doesn't think anyone should tell anyone else what to do

*he doesn't understand why anyone would care about gay marriage :shrug:

*he hates Clinton, because he lost a job due to NAFTA. However, his real contempt is for the people who spent millions of dollars sniffing his under ware ("who cares if the guy got a blow job? good for him").

*He is VERY much for stem cell research, and republican obstruction of it led him to vote all D n 04.

*He works for Wal Mart, and thinks it's evil. He wants a union, but has no idea how to get one, without endangering his job and family.

So, why does he think he's a Republican? Because, as he puts it,"I know the Republicans don't care about me. They are the party of the rich. But the Democrats are the party of the lazy, the welfare people who don't want to work, and get paid anyway. Why should I have to bust my ass everyday, why should my wife need to work two jobs, when some people just sit on there ass and collect checks?".

The way he sees it, the Democrats have abandoned the "blue collar" man. The don't care about Unions, they pander to the very very poor and the people like me (ivy tower liberals and special interest groups).

I need help here. The Democrats want my brother, they NEED him.

Something he said really hit a nerve with me, "Twenty Years ago, the Democrats would have helped me get into a Union. Now there just as happy as the Republicans to take walmarts money, and let me suffer".

Is he right?

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. Because the number of honest, decent people being helped by

welfare far outstrips the number of lazy bums.

Let me put it this way. I can sleep at night thinking a couple of my tax dollars went to a lazy bum. I couldn't sleep if I knew that a truly needy family went without just so I could keep my few cents.

[FreedomAngel82]

34. Hear hear

I can't understand how people can't be for social programs like Social Security and welfare. These programs help people. There was an inspiring story that was told at Clinton's library opening. A woman was talking about how she became poor during Clinton's term(s) but she got help with welfare and was able to help herself get back up on her feet and she started her own business and hired people who were in positions like she was. Your brother sounds like a democrat to me. Tell your brother what Kerry did earlier this year for small businesses.

[jsamuel]

2. why bother with labels?

He believes what he believes, he can call himself whatever he wants to.

[KarenInMA]

3. Because he lives in a swing state.

And he's my brother, and I love him.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

5. Sounds to me...

Like he's an independent.

[ten]

28. Jsamuel makes sense

Asking him to officially switch parties is like asking a Yankees fan to become a Red Sox fan. Let him keep the meaningless label, get him to vote for candidates instead of parties. He'll quickly figure it out himself.

[CWebster]

4. tell him

It doesn't have to be the party of Clinton only.

Walmart is from Arkansas. Hillary Clinton sat on the board.

[KarenInMA]

7. That won't help. He HATES them.

I could go into why, but I am just :tinfoilhat: enough not to want to give identifying information about him. Suffice to say, he and his wife both work there, and they have a sick child.

[CWebster]

13. I don't care for them either at this point

I think they are a great liability to the future of the party and I wish they would allow the party to move on and regain it's identity and fighting spirit again.

Then your brother would know where he stands without a doubt--but until the Democrats start to represent and fight for the vast majority of the struggling Americans--without using the opiate of religion, your brother will remain disinterested.

But Dean does offer future hope, if they don't totally muzzle him.

[Bluerthanblue]

31. and here in NH

they won't be eligible for any state help, if Healty Child programs go the way the 'right' wants it to-

PLEASE Karen- as one who has watched NH decimated by 'wall-marts' and 'demoulas' and 'hannafords'- our little IGA's and corner stores killed off, by 'CORPORATIONS' who claim 'American values' while buying all the cheap junk plastic crap from china- etc, remind him that what he is experiencing at Walmart- is at the 'heart' of what is so evil, and self destructive of the republican corporate mentality-

Can 'Walmart' AFFORD to pay your Bro and family a decent wage, and GOOD benefits???? ABSOLUTELY- look at the corporate profits- and then ask him how hard those who shuffle the papers, or maybe sign them actually WORK????- while the 'average' joe works 24hr shifts- wears their little smiley buttons, and raises prices, moves merchandise around to keep shoppers 'looking' for that one item they 'ran in for'- and the only competition goes belly up, so that as walmart prices rise, (they are now the only 'option') does HIS 'quality of life' rise with it ????

i have boycotted walmart for several years now, even though i DONT have the money to afford to- i'd far rather shop Goodwill, our local 'recycling center aka 'the dump' and second hand shops and sale shop at any local small market rather than see America become another superstore.

[greekspeak]

6. My dad is a libertarian in Puke clothes

He has stong opinions on social issues that many on DU would be happy with. But when it comes to economic issues, he is hardline all the way. He is a model libertarian. I have tried to get him to vote as such, but he sees the Libs as many here see the greens-a toilet to flush one's vote down. So more repuke voting for him.

[elehhhhna]

8. Hell, are you sure you're a Democrat?

I don't see the party doing anything much about the above issues--perhaps some lip service, but not enough.

If they called out the BA en masse, it would get MSM attention. Right now it seems like one-party good cop/bad cop.

[TahitiNut]

9. Republicans: No problem with a death penalty that kills innocent people ..

... but angry about a welfare system that might benefit the undeserving.

:wtf:

In what bizarre, off-planet moral system is it OK to put innocent people to death in order to kill the guilty, but not OK to benefit a few "undeserving" in order to provide survival needs for the deserving?

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. Why not have him take some of these tests?

http://politicalcompass.org/

http://www.politopia.com/quiz_index.php3

http://selectsmart.com/PRESIDENT/

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. You might ask by what evidence does he claim that

"...the lazy, the welfare people who don't want to work, and get paid anyway..." vote Democrat?

I strongly suspect that those people don't vote at all.

Encourage him to visit the internet, and read international news sources. It sounds like he may be getting his information for a biased, right leaning source, i.e., the MSM.

[KarenInMA]

18. One person that he knows.

That's it. Just anectodal evidence. He doesn't have TIME to get his news from less conventional sources, he has to work overtime to pay for The Greatest Child Ever's medical bills.

[Coexist]

12. Howard Dean is taking the party back "$25 at a time"

that means - screw the huge corporate contributions that have turned this party into R-lite.

Grassroots money means the freedom to do whats right, no matter if there is an election around the corner and you need to fill your coffers for the fight.

Direct him to the CAFTA vote archives on CNN and have him listen to the Democrat's speeches as opposed to the Republican's.

Labor is on its way to becoming a vital part of this country again. Outsourcing and benefit cuts are really beginning to affect people's attitudes. I'm in for that fight. So is the new blood in this party.

[jackster]

14. Kathy, remember yesterday's thread from FredStemBottom...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1961237

Start working on undermining all the dittohead talk he's simply regurgitating and doesn't understand.... sounds like once that is debunked he might just throw in the towel and call himself a dem...

If not, at least he'll understand the truth, but it sounds like he's on the right track anyway!

[KarenInMA]

20. That is Fantastic!! Thank you!

My brother could BE that guy!!

I have no idea how I missed that.

And the name's Karen :hi:

[jackster]

33. so sorry KAREN!

good luck with your brother - I worked in NH for Kerry and I can tell you that there are MANY blue collar men AND women Democrats in NH!

[SammyWinstonJack]

15. What's an "ivory tower liberal"?

:shrug:

[KarenInMA]

17. It's a republican term for me, that he uses as a joke.

My whole family is very blue collar, most are in unions. I'm not, I work for a university and collect historical degrees.

The theory is, "librul elites" have no idea what life is like in the real world, and they are responsible for warping young, impressionable minds.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some christian students to torment, and some football players to turn gay.

:)

[Justitia]

16. How about some factual HISTORY? Clinton ENDED welfare in '96.

This garnered much scorn for Clinton from his own party, but it's true. Clinton eliminated welfare as we know it (used to be called AFDC - Aid to Families w/Dependent Children) w/the 1996 bill:

"Personal Responsibility & Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act"


"Clinton Signs Welfare Reform Bill, Angers Liberals"
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/news/9608/22/welfare.sign/index.shtml

You can read all about Clinton and what he did concerning welfare & poverty (incl this) here:

http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Bill_Clinton_Welfare_+_Poverty.htm

I think a little correct, factual info w/your brother will go a long way to dispelling those RW MYTHS of "cadillac queens"!

Good luck!

[Bluerthanblue]

26. no- Clinton 'altered' PERSONAL welfare-

under 'durres' from the lies perpetuated by those who have more money than they know what to do with-

Welfare 'queens' are like the 'compassionate neo-cons'- rare but often touted as 'poster children'-


AFDC turned into a LIFETIME LIMITED 'security net' for needy families-
many turned to a 5yr. Temporary Aid to Needy Families or TANF program-
sad, because the vast majority of 'welfare' families do NOT want to be on 'state aid' they simply can't LIVE on minimum wage, which offers NO health care- and health care for those who work, and are neither children under 18 nor pregnant are not usually eligible-

Clintons 'reforms' haven't solved anything- especially with the bush cuts on any kind of help for families transitioning to jobs that can ACTUALLY support a family- job training, and support as families get on their feet.

cadillac queens ARE a myth- thank you for understanding and spreading that understanding-

it shoul NOT be a 'shame' to be in need- it SHOULD be a 'shame' that this country HAS 'needy' people, and hates them for their 'need'-

[Kipling]

19. Ways in which he stands to benefit from a real liberal government:

1) Universal healthcare
2) Increased minimum wage
3) More and better unions

[gratuitous]

21. So he wants Demo help for himself, but resents help for others?

Odd sort of mindset. You might point out the severe gap between how much of the federal budget goes to individuals who have to go through a long, humiliating, invasive process to qualify for temporary assistance that must be paid back and the hundreds of billions freely dispensed under GOP leadership to large corporations, who are under no obligation to do anything but line the pockets of their overrich CEOs.

For example, the new energy bill hands out subsidies and tax breaks to large oil companies, which have enjoyed record earnings and profits the last two years. Yet those same oil companies haven't hired anyone new, and is he paying any less at the pump? Where is all that money going? Are oil company executives "earning" those billions in some way that the "lazy" folks on temporary assistance aren't?

[rman]

22. Ask him who told him "Democrats are the party of the lazy..."

and who would gain from his believing it. Ask him who own the media.

He's partially correct about the union thing. Many Dems are beholden to corporate interests, but on the whole not as much as Repubs.

He does know NAFTA is bad? Show him the recent vote on CAFTA.

[KarenInMA]

23. He's beyond livid about that.

In fact, that's where this convo started. Two hours later, we were arguing about what sport was better, football or baseball!

[rman]

25. Livid about CAFTA? Well then,

Show him who voted against it; far more Dems then Repubs. There probably are other similar examples.

[4_TN_TITANS]

29. Oh...I don't know... maybe FOOTBALL is best

:P :P :P :P

(go Titans!)

[KarenInMA]

32. clearly, you sir, are completly wrong

:)

[Bluerthanblue]

30. Karen, it can be so

tricky 'discusting' politics with family- but as a fellow 'liberal sister' and a native NH ite-

Ask your brother what is better- Corporate Welfare? where the 'right' claims such high ground, and passes legislation, and uses their power to make their own ground higher, while tossing the 'rights' of anyone in their way to the side?

Ask him to look at Cheney's 'retirement package' and stock options- (oh, yeah, they're in a 'blind trust' but he's no fool- he's lining his pockets with platnum) and why folks like your brother were being laid off as Cheney was awarded his outragours 'early retirement blimp'?

Ask him, how Benson- (the 'repub' fool of an ex-governor represented your brother and his needs, and the interests of the WHOLE of NH versus Jeanne Shaheen? the 'dem' ex gov.?) is he 'better off now?'

And most importantly- ask him why the 'name' or 'catagory' means so much to him- it is the 'ideals' of the majority of the 'group'-

YES- there are RICH Dem's- but why don't THEY object to 'giving out of their abundance'????

YES- the dems accept corporate bribes, but that doesn't change the fact that they (for the most part) vote AGAINST the elite rich, and for the 'common and uncommon (thinking) man and woman)?

Ask him which presidents he believes have made changes in this nation for the better? and what 'party' they represented? but also advise him to look at the 'republican' credo of Lincoln (which is actually the democratic platform of today)

Ask him why he cares more what 'people' will think of him, than how he can 'face himself in the mirror' when he chooses to 'align' himself with the repubs, of today who

'preach' tolerance- while legislating bigotry-

who claim compassion while telling the needy to shut up and die-

who extoll 'life'- of 'dead people' (schaivo) those who they don't have to give ANYTHING to (the unborn) except 'lip service', and who
kill not only with abandon, but in bush's case with a kind of 'sick glee' ("oh pleeese don't kill me")

Who lie, but NEVER admit it- who steal but never 'do time' for it- who get all upset over an extra marital affair who killed NO ONE- but spent millions of dollars that could have been far better expended-

But who very deceptivley and pre-meditatidly send 2000 + men and women into a soverign nation to destroy, kill, die, be maimed, and forever changed to fight a war that is ALL about oil, revenge, and domination-
and ALL sides admit, has 'no happy ending'.

i'd FAR rather be 'left' for dead, than living 'right' wrong- and having to carry the guilt and shame that my 'greed' and 'security' was worth the lives, and survival of hundreds of thousands of fellow human beings-

and finally- ask him if he believes he can EVER conform to the policies of the 'repubs'- which will not change, by their very 'name'-
unwilling to change- clinging to the old-

or be daring enough to put his beliefs to the test, and become a part of a 'party' who's very name says we are open to learning, change, and growing towards a "more perfect' union- rather than staying with the status quo who digs in their heels and chooses the 'wrong' path every time, because they 'resist change'-???

and good luck-

[melissinha]

24. Sounds like he's been brainwashed

He's right to be concerned, but he's wrong to assume he's not a democrat.
He holds most party line views. Tell him you talked to your pals on DU and we decided he's a Democrat, he's just one of the many who have been exposed to the Corporate Media brainwashing. As NCevilDUer puts it:
Encourage him to visit the internet, and read international news sources. It sounds like he may be getting his information for a biased, right leaning source, i.e., the MSM. That'll help shake the lazy image.... and if he won't do that tell him he's being lazy.

Not caring about gay marriage is exactly our point.... its not our business and it belongs out of politics.

But frankly he presents a lot of good questions and concerns that we Democrats are concerned about. The image of the party that we can't seem to shake .....and the decreasing influence of the labor unions.

Tell him, NAFTA was bad, we're not happy that Clinton pushed it. Unions good, unions fund democrats...
Listen to FLDem5:
that means - screw the huge corporate contributions that have turned this party into R-lite.
Grassroots money means the freedom to do whats right, no matter if there is an election around the corner and you need to fill your coffers for the fight.
Direct him to the CAFTA vote archives on CNN and have him listen to the Democrat's speeches as opposed to the Republican's.
Labor is on its way to becoming a vital part of this country again. Outsourcing and benefit cuts are really beginning to affect people's attitudes. I'm in for that fight. So is the new blood in this party.

Frankly its voters like him, who have legitimate concerns and experiences that we should be reaching. I think that with Dean's leadership and a lot of teamwork, we can win him and many more over to the true party of the people.

[Jackpine Radical]

27. I dunno if your brother is a Democrat or not. He's a Progressive.

Sometimes Democrats are Progressives and sometimes they're not.In my own state, I can vote for Feingold & Obey knowing that I'm voting for people who represent and uphold my values. That wouldn't be the case if I were in Connecticut & had to choose to vote for Lieberman or a Pug.

[sandnsea]

35. You've defined the problem

As did this op-ed I posted today. Part of the solution is being pro-active, instead of continuing to support "no" legislation. Like supporting better child predator laws instead of focusing on video game warnings.

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/?view=plink&id=1300