New post on the ACLU site about the NON-released photos.

[napi21]

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=18842&c=280

snip

A hearing has been scheduled in federal court in New York for August 15 to address two issues: whether the public has been improperly denied access to information as a result of the government's redacted briefs, and whether the government should be compelled to release photographs of abuse at Abu Ghraib.


You might want to read the entire post on their site. They haven't stopped fighting!

[lvx35]

1. Woohoo! The ACLU doesn't give up easily.

If you can, support them. Join if you're not a card carrying member. Click my sig.

[Hepburn]

31. Card carrying member of the ACLU since the 1970's!

If you are not a member, I would urge you to join. This is an organization which as it sole purpose protects EVERYONE's civil liberties.

Long live the ACLU!!

[lvx35]

32. right on! n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. nope next month I wikll give my donation for the year

sorry have been been able until now

[dalloway]

3. glad to see my ACLU dollars at work!

[liberalismresurgent]

4. I don't get it.

A Federal Judge ordered the new photos released, and the Pentagon lawyers merely filled out a note explaining why they were opposed to meeting their deadline. Shouldn't someone be in jail? I bet if my broke bronxiite ass missed a deadline I'd be in jail by now.

[napi21]

8. I don't know about this case, but we've ALL heard about

people (usually with $$) that keep filing objections, etc. until they finally pi**s off the judge!

Remember, this is an order, not a guilty verdict at a trial. Who are you going to put in jail? All the employees of the Pentagon???

[Warren DeMontague]

13. The judge ordered the government to get off it's ass back in October

of Last Year.

I'm sure he's not pleased with all of this. They are quite obviously stalling for time, and desperately so.

[The Night Owl]

20. Great idea! Jail them all.

[annabanana]

33. ...i can dream, can't i.........sigh

[hootinholler]

34. Rumsfeld.

It's his Department.

-Hoot

[kestrel91316]

41. Easy, you put Rummy in jail. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

11. This has been going on for 2 years.

They're terrified they will come out. I can't imagine the Judge is going to be terribly thrilled with this new argument, particularly if the gist of it is (and it seems to be) "Releasing the pictures will piss people off"..

[RagAss]

5. I Promise ...

If they succeed in getting these photos released I will finally join.

[karlrschneider]

6. They sure could use your help in "getting ...them released"!

:D

[Warren DeMontague]

7. To sum up the argument of Richard B. Meyers:

"Releasing the photos would piss people off"

[napi21]

9. Well, wouldn't THAT be just too damn bad!

I'm behind the ACLU on this one! I hope they have the $$ and the clout to make it happen!

[Warren DeMontague]

12. I'm busy reading the government's arguments right now

They sound pretty weak.

Apparently, there is a legal precedent that "the government must assert all exemptions at the same time, in the same district court proceeding".

They've found one case to offer as justification for throwing in the 7(F) exemption at the last minute; but it looks to me like the intellectual core of the argument (if you can call it that) is, "we didn't realize how angry people might get until the Newsweek story about the flushing of the Koran"(!!!)

Um, right. Notwithstanding the fact that the riots in Afghanistan didn't have anything to do with the story, either!

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. and from the mood over here

we are already pissed because they are not released, and I can bet the people in the ME also are pissed, but Richard B Myers may end up his distinguished AF career on the docket at the Hague

[Sam_Lowry]

14. Scary part is, Myers is 100% right

I can only imagine (and I DO NOT want to!) what's in these photos. And if they come out we will indeed face riots, violence, and hatred all across the muslim world. He, and those above him who encouraged this sh1t, are terrified. And with good reason. They fear that if this gets to the public, they are going to prison. And I think they are right. But maybe the dumb f*cks shoulda thought of that before they decided they were above international law, Geneva conventions, or any semblance of morality, dontcha think?

Release the sh1t, pentagon. U stick with the Bush cabal on this it'll just ensure you'll go to prison with them. It's your only shot at any honor whatsoever.

:rant:

[Warren DeMontague]

15. Welcome to DU, Sam Lowry

:hi:

Like my avatar? ;-)

[Sam_Lowry]

19. Thanks and yeah!

One of the most prophetic movies ever! Gilliam just nailed it. If you can find it, rent the Criterion disk. It's got his own cut with more scenes.

:hi:

[Warren DeMontague]

22. I've actually got the 3 disk criterion DVD

(I'm all over Criterion!)

I bought it when they released it, back in '99 I think. That's one of my favorite movies of all time, for sure.

It even includes the infamous "Love Conquers All", butchered Harvey Weinstein version-- If you have the need to see it.

Also The Battle of Brazil is an excellent read on the whole fiasco.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. the rape of kids will go well in the Mid West?

They are also afraid of those riots in middle america...

By the way welcome to DU

[Sam_Lowry]

21. Thanks and sadly I think you're right too

:hi:


I worry about here too. But so few (relatively) seem to have any outrage about so much in this country. Do you think even something as bad as this will draw people out?

another great movie quote: Darryl Hannah in "Silver City"

"They catch one president getting a blow job in the oval office. The next one steals the election and gets away with it. People have lost the ability to be scandalized"

[Warren DeMontague]

23. I think it's more attributable to the fact that different rules seem to

apply to Republicans.

I mean, Iran-Contra was a far bigger criminal enterprise than Clinton's semen stain, but no one got impeached then, either...

I think part of the reason they're fighting so hard to keep these images supressed is because they understand that images have a visceral effect and are impossible to explain away.

[Sam_Lowry]

27. could well be. Here's another question that bothers me

This is the age of photoshop, right? Why on earth haven't they "dumbed" the pictures down, made them less than blatantly sadistic, so that releasing them would have no effect? Something smells...
U think the goal might simply be to set the precedent (yet again) that the admin and pentagon may defy the courts? :scared:

On edit: Good Grief! Maybe THIS is why they want Roberts on the court!!!! Think they can drag this out until the case gets to the SC?

[Warren DeMontague]

29. I suspect there are several reasons:

One, too many people know what's in those images.

Two, there may be other copies floating around. Blatant manipulation would constitute some form of additional something-or-other. I've wondered, myself, if they weren't going to pull something silly like shrinking the images down to the size of, say, four pixels by four pixels.. and then saying "well, you didn't specify the SIZE of the images we had to release"

Also, I'm not sure there's a process for appealing something like this. Speculation and discussion I've seen elsewhere has centered upon the idea that cases like this only have one judge, if they wanted a new one the judge would have to recuse himself. I don't think it's like a criminal case where there can be appeals and whatnot. But I could be wrong.

And you're right, something does smell. I'm sure they don't want to release the images (that's pretty clear, huh?) and I wouldn't put it past them to pull something else if they get ruled against on the 15th.

[annabanana]

35. the ME already KNOWS all about this shit..

It's only us poor US mushrooms (in the dark and fed manure) that don't have the info..

[tblue37]

39. Iraqis already know what is in the photos and are already

plenty pissed. Muslims everywhere already know and are pissed to the nth degree. But not releasing them is just to keep Americans from seeing them. That's who the administration is scared is going to get pissed off.

[The Night Owl]

16. Why does the ACLU have to go back to court to argue a case it already won?

This is insanity.

The ACLU already successfully argued that the American people have a right to see the photos and videos from Abu Ghraib.

How many more last minute motions can the government make?

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. as many as it takes to keep them out of the public eye

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Excellent question.

In the papers just released, the government argues -and weakly, IMHO- as to why they threw in this 7(F) exemption at the last minute; when, according to precedent, "all exemptions are to be raised at the same time"...

It sounds to me like August 15 there should be a definitive ruling on whether or not they have to release the photos. I don't think they can keep playing these games indefinitely.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

28. The Bush Administration has been fighting this since October 2003

when the FOIA was initially filed. In fact, the Judge commented on the government's glacial pace in meeting their obligations under the law.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

25. August 15th should be a DAY OF NOISE all across America

Every progressive blog, every progressive veteran's group, medical group, civil liberties organization, as well as every Senator and Congressman of conscience should get behind this and demand the government accede to the right of the people to know what has been done and continues to be done in its name.

Here's the 30+ Memorandum of the government, heavily redacted, that moves to suppress this important information.

http://www.aclu.org/Files/OpenFile.cfm?id=18834

This needs to become a major news story. Only by focusing on this showdown, by demonstrating, by demanding action by our own representatives will the media have to focus on the story and let the American people know about yet another attempt to hide documentation about our government's activities.

While I'm not advocating interference in the Court's proper functions themselves, pressure needs to be put on the Bush administration outside of the legal process to relent and give the people the truth.

August 15th should become a NATIONAL CALL TO ACTION!

[The Night Owl]

26. My guess is...

Considering the gravity of releasing the Abu Ghraib photos and videos, the court may feel compelled to excercise extreme caution.

It will be interesting to see what happens if the court dismisses the government's latest petition. My guess is that we are about to see what happens when the government is in full on defiance of the law. In fact, we might be seeing that right now.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. Except the idea that the pictures would be inflammatory

and that the government wouldn't want to release them for reasons of embarrassment or because it would make them "look bad" has been figured into this thing all along. It's not a new argument; it's a delaying tactic. If anything, the only "new" argument that they seem to have, here, is that the Newsweek imbroglio (that damn librul media, again!) caused them to suddenly realize that people in the Middle East might get pissed off if they thought US forces had done bad things.

I suggest you read the government's newest arguments. Not only are they (the non-redacted portions) idiotic, 70% read like brainless cheerleading and rehashing of the rationales for the "Global War on Terror" (including, of course, the invasion of Iraq)

Pretty slim reeds, legally, I should think.

[Burried News]

36. Teaching Iraqi's what it means to live in freedom?

[Rose Siding]

37. I was so sure *someone* would leak them

-long before the govt was ever compelled to release them.

[Burried News]

38. Google Dilawar Palestinian Hanging

Dilawar was a cab driver in Afghanistan. He died at Bagram. He is Burried News.
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2005/03/03_2005_Bazelon.html

[Burried News]

40. From the link above.

"It’s hard to explain how facts this disturbing have garnered so little attention—especially in light of the connection to Abu Ghraib. According to the U.S. military’s own investigators, it was at Bagram that interrogators devised and tested the methods that would shame the United States in Iraq. Documents and witness accounts from both detainees and soldiers starkly portray how an initially disciplined interrogation effort deteriorated, in a climate of lawlessness and pressure to produce intelligence, to the point where officers and soldiers first bent the rules, and finally broke them."

[Burried News]

42. How about this for an incentive program?

Abuse the guard who will abuse the prisoner. If you were the guard and wanted to get some sleep - what would you do?

From the Mother Jones link above:

"“So we came up with this technique we called ‘monstering.’ We said that if you put one interrogator in with one prisoner and scrupulously gave them the same water and food and bathroom breaks, the interrogation could go on as long as the interrogator could stand it. Of course, we were hoping that the interrogator would be fully rested, whereas the prisoner would have just come off the battlefield.”

Monstering wasn’t in the Army manual, and before he came to Bagram, Mackey wouldn’t have imagined improvising techniques that deviated from his training. But in Afghanistan, he increasingly felt compelled to produce intelligence that might help his fellow soldiers. “When I arrived, I would never have countenanced monstering,” he told me. “But we saw how little success we were having against a determined enemy. So we went to what we thought was the absolute edge.”"

Don't order abuse - just create an environment to encourage abuse - hey we didn't tell him to do it yada yada yada