Have your privacy/rights have been violated due to the Patriot act?

[shance]

Poll question: Have your privacy/rights have been violated due to the Patriot act?

Do you feel that the Patriot Act has somehow been used as a means to to violate your privacy and your rights as a Democrat, an activist, or just a citizen at large?

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. And these days you are not paranoid

Yuo are right, and if you believe otherwise, you are not paying attention

Now DU, please join me in our not so common wave to agent Mike

[shance]

3. Hey there Mike!! Don't let them work you too hard!!

:hi:

[Liberal In Texas]

22. Agent Mike? We are now probably on a first name basis.

I've had a secret service clearance level. I know they know me. Being on DU with my radical beliefs? Oh yes, Agent Mike knows me.

Edit for...

:hi:
and have a
:donut:
on me.

[Trillo]

2. On http get request

I occasionally receive a page that says, "Access has been Denied!" when requesting a news item. In a comment section of the page's code the name "DansGuardian" is mentioned.
http://dansguardian.org/?page=iamlookinginthewrongplace

My ISP has acted like a big government bureaucracy where nobody knows nothing (maybe if I try a different department ? ) when they're really a very small company, and that's the first time they've ever acted this way.

Hasn't happened since I sent them the code on the page, however....

Not sure if it's the Patriot Act specifically. Seems more like a global censorship filter, which means I'm not being 'singled out' like the poll says with "I".

[shance]

5. Not too hip on computer lingo, but there have been some posts here

recently and at other websites of ISP's monitoring/censoring incoming and outgoing emails.

[Trillo]

6. A GET request is part of the behind the scenes operations

that a webbrowser uses when retrieving a web page.

You post reminded me of receiving an forwarded email with a virus the other day, that neither the original sender, nor the forwarder could find with multiple scans. I could only conclude either one or both of them were lying, or the email had been infected in transit. Donning the tinfoil hat, one could imagine that a 'targeting' had occurred. But that 'evidence' was quickly deleted and scrubbed.

[Why Syzygy]

4. well duh

they have my library card number! Can I read in private? Obviously not.

[FreedomAngel82]

7. Right

So that is a violation. *sigh* Of course I hardly ever use the public library now that I'm in college and can use their's. Of course sometimes you have to go to the public library for more resources. I used the library about a year or two ago so they probably have my information. I was doing a report on Elie Wiesel.

[Catholic Sensation]

8. you know why they have your information?

because PUBLIC libraries are run by... THE GOVERNMENT. They had your information before the PATRIOT Act was put into place. The operative word here is PUBLIC. This is as much an invasion of privacy as the government having your driver's license number.

[Lars39]

10. Suboena's used to be required for the library info, not anymore.

[Disturbed]

11. How in the Hell would I know since...

this is secret spying?

[beam me up scottie]

14. They wouldn't have turned it over to the government

before.

I turned in my library card the day they asked me to sign the form.
Some librarians will fight this, others won't.
I live in a red state.

[Catholic Sensation]

16. THEY ARE THE GOVERNMENT

THAT'S WHY IT'S A PUBLIC LIBRARY. WHAT PART OF THE WORD PUBLIC IS HARD TO FIGURE OUT? Christ, libraries are run by local, county, and state GOVERNMENTS. They had your information the moment you signed up.

May I ask why you turned in your library card?

[beam me up scottie]

18. What part of post #10 is HARD TO FIGURE OUT?

AND WHAT THE FUCK IS UP WITH USING ALL CAPS?
IS THIS SUPPOSED TO PROVE A POINT BESIDES WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT THE USER?

[Catholic Sensation]

19. apparently you think that the government didn't have your info

before the Patriot Act, which is so amazingly ludicrous it's frightening.

[beam me up scottie]

24. Apparently you need to do some reading because your ignorance is

astounding and your arrogance only compounds it.

I am assuming you are capable of reading, which is a stretch considering you did not read post #10.
But I'll post it for the people who actually do want to learn something.

FROM THE ACLU OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA

De-fund Library Spying: A Critical Window of Opportunity
Congressman Sanders is the sponsor of H.R. 1157, the Freedom to Read Protection Act which is cosponsored by 129 bipartisan cosponsors and would reinstate legal standards for investigations of libraries and bookstores which were in place before the passage of section 215 of the USA Patriot Act. The bill has the support of 20 newspapers editorial boards and over 40 library, book, publishing industry, and civil liberty groups. Three State Legislatures, 44 State Library Associations and 137 Cities and Towns (representing 16 million people) have passed resolutions expressing their concerns with certain provisions of the Patriot Act including Section 215.


Congressman Sanders, along with Congressman C.L. “Butch” Otter R-ID and Congressman John Conyers Jr. D-MI, is offering a version of his bill, H.R. 1157, as an amendment to the Commerce, Justice, State, and Judiciary Appropriations bill of 2004 which prohibit any funds in the bill from being used to do a Section 215 search of a library or bookstore. This amendment would restore and protect the privacy and First Amendment rights of library and bookstore patrons which were in place before the USA Patriot Act. Passage of this amendment would still allow the FBI to use all other legal authorities at their disposal, including search warrants and criminal subpoenas, to get library and bookstore records.


Section 215 of the USA Patriot Act, which was signed into law on October 26, 2001, severely expands the scope of materials which the FBI can access with a warrant from the government’s secret “FISA” court. Previously the FBI could only obtain records from a limited group of businesses. Now, after showing minimal justification, the FBI has the power to search for any “tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items)” in any location. This broad language has swept-up bookstores and libraries, which traditionally enjoy special First Amendment protections, into this area of government surveillance.
Under the Patriot Act the FBI could go after materials such as library circulation records, Internet use records, book purchasing records, floppy disks, data tapes, and computers with hard drives. In addition, this section of the bill prevents a librarian or bookseller, under penalty of law, from informing patrons that the library is under investigation or that a patron’s records have been searched. Librarians and booksellers across the country fear that this is causing a “chilling effect” and making users self-censor their reading choices.
The Sanders-Otter-Conyers amendment would return protections and warrant procedures which were in place for libraries and bookstores before the passage of the USA Patriot Act. Librarians and booksellers want to protect Americans from terrorist attacks but at the same time they must protect the right of every citizen to read, learn, and purchase books without undue government interference. This amendment would allow the FBI to follow procedures already in current law to get warrants to retrieve records for terrorist related or criminal investigations.

http://ga1.org/campaign/FreedomToReadAmendment/explanation

[Why Syzygy]

35. I'm gonna read the post below

love the ACLU. But off the cuff, I find it a stretch that the F.B.I. had access to my library checkouts prior to PatriotAct.

Do you have any information that would indicate they did?

Do they care that I read, "Floral Designers for Beginners" or "Captain Sunshine" or "How to Make a Nuke in the Basement"?

Would love the background on your assertion.

Edit: oops.. it's above.

[shance]

21. THEY ARE NOT THE GESTAPO HOWEVER.....YET

Lets also clarify. WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT. Not whoever your vague THEY is.

WE ARE. Atleast we used to be before the extremists seized the Executive Branch.

The only reason these "government officials" want access to your records has absolutely nothing to do with "terrorism" which is the ONLY qualification they are supposedly utilizing. They are being hired to access records so they may potentially blackmail, intimidate and track anyone's information they want. That is the reason why.

And you obviously failed to read prior to the Patriot Act, FBI, CIA whoever, used to need probable cause and a subpoena before they could go sniffing through anyones file.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Then if you claim to be a member of the reality based community

you shoudl read the US Patriot Act, in particular as it pertains to public libraries and the power to subpoena records

[Catholic Sensation]

34. i claim to be a member of the RBC in that I realize that the government

is probably interested more in people who committ crimes or promote rhetoric that would incite violence (and i'm not limiting this to terrorists, but state militias, etc.) than a bunch of people who post on a message board.

The telling line of this thread "Whats so interesting is the number of people who feel confident they've been targetted, violated and/or monitored and yet know they 'can't prove it'."

Which is more realistic, believing the government is more interested in criminals or believing you're the target of a conspiracy without any evidence?

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Ok I wil put it to you this way

if you only post in a message board you may be paranoid, except taht the FBI has testified that they are ahem penetrating disident groups such as oh peace groups. They are on record in front of congress, and want even more power, aka they don't want no pesky warrants no more.

As to me personally, I have done far more than just post on a message board, so I will not be surprised if they are keeping a file. Shoot I now they are.. for a fact. I was naturalized in '98, that requires a file.. I also was married to a Submariner, that requieres a file and my home while in housing was tapped... national security you know... if you know what to listen to, my phone is still tapped from time to time. My husband is no longer in the service either.

So at your peril you are not paranoid enough.

[beam me up scottie]

41. The funny thing is, what he says is exactly what this admin tells us.

They think we're stupid enough to believe that we have nothing to worry about if we've done nothing wrong.

I really wonder which boards our friend has been visiting.

Because I've never seen anyone parrot this admin's spin about library records at DU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. I know I noticed

have you noticed the ammount of spin tonight?

;-)

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Yep, notice we are now getting crickets

;-)

[beam me up scottie]

50. Heh heh.

Off to hound other concerned citizens.

Why the NERVE of us, questioning the government's motives!

You know, we're just downright UNPATRIOTIC, aren't we ?

A good citizen would shut up and trust the president.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Hmmm given Mike is probably reading this

to plead the fifth or not to plead the fifth? I mean questioning motives? You surely jest.. MOI?

:-)

By the way, maybe our friend should read this....

Library Bill of Rights

The American Library Association affirms that all libraries are forums for information and ideas, and that the following basic policies should guide their services.

1. Books and other library resources should be provided for the interest, information, and enlightenment of all people of the community the library serves. Materials should not be excluded because of the origin, background, or views of those contributing to their creation.
2. Libraries should provide materials and information presenting all points of view on current and historical issues. Materials should not be proscribed or removed because of partisan or doctrinal disapproval.
3. Libraries should challenge censorship in the fulfillment of their responsibility to provide information and enlightenment.
4. Libraries should cooperate with all persons and groups concerned with resisting abridgment of free expression and free access to ideas.
5. A person’s right to use a library should not be denied or abridged because of origin, age, background, or views.
6. Libraries which make exhibit spaces and meeting rooms available to the public they serve should make such facilities available on an equitable basis, regardless of the beliefs or affiliations of individuals or groups requesting their use.



Adopted June 18, 1948.
Amended February 2, 1961, and January 23, 1980,
inclusion of “age” reaffirmed January 23, 1996,
by the ALA Council.

[beam me up scottie]

53. That's very interesting, I'm saving it.

Any good librarian is outraged that Big Brother expects them to spy on the patrons.
The librarian at the library my dad belongs to said there was no way she would EVER turn over a patron's records without a subpoena.

You've got to be a miserable tyrant if you have America's librarians hating you.

[Why Syzygy]

55. gotta get their zzzzz's

How entrancing is listening to Peace Activists, et al.

Taking names and numbers. It didn't start here and now. This has been an ongoing op since AT LEAST the peace protests of the 60's. Plants. The rest of it.

I'm so bored with it all. I cannot imagine having that job. Bring on the ephedra.

Not to minimize.

The de facto is they can pull any info they want to prove anything they want to do anything they want.
As long as they are above the law, Bill of Rights / Constitution. Which we know they believe they are. Bottom line.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[petgoat]

27. There's Government and There's Government

Sure, a public library is government, and it maintains certain records
for the purpose of its own administration. But when it starts turning
that stuff over to City Hall, that's not right. And when it starts
turning the stuff over to the feds, that's not right. 'Cause that's not
investigating, that's a fishing expedition.

[Why Syzygy]

28. and they had my checkout list

without any explanation or notification? Then why would they put that into a NEW law? Can you cite resources for that allegation?

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Yes but before the Patriot Act

the government didn't spend all that much time snooping on library users.

[Caria]

13. I think they can secretly get info from ALL libraries now.

I'm quite sure they can & do check records of private colleges and universities, as well as those of public ones.

[Lars39]

9. Overview of Changes to Legal Rights

Overview of Changes to Legal Rights
The Associated Press
September 5, 2002

Some of the fundamental changes to Americans' legal rights by the Bush administration and the USA Patriot Act following the terror attacks:

* FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigation.

* FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records requests.

* FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

* RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

* FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

* RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

* RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.

[shance]

12. Thank you Lars* That's a sobering but beneficial summary.

It spells it out succinctly.

A good explanation to send to friends and family.

[Why Syzygy]

56. The Bill of Rights ala Bush Crime Organization

et al ~ IOW World Domination (in their dreams)

The Original, which served our nation in times of war and peace for 200+ years:

(in brief)

Article
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


:hurts:

[jurassicpork]

15. Section 215 says it all.

As one Senator once said recently, all 215 does is make Americans self-censor their reading choices. I would never think to buy or check out a book on terrorism or a biography of bin Laden after the story I'd heard about that Seattle librarian who refused to give the FBI such a list.

JP
http://jurassicpork.blogspot.com

[shance]

17. Whats so interesting is the number of people who feel confident

they've been targetted, violated and/or monitored and yet know they 'can't prove it'.

That is exactly the reason why the Patriot Act is illegal.

There is no protection, and no legal recourse for American citizens to prosecute wrongful acts because of the technological methods and tools being uitlized to violate peoples' lives, privacy and dignity.

The Patriot Act was designed to not have any traceable tracks where those responsible or guilty could be charged with a crime of violating innocent people's lives.

The Patriot Act is more and more being revealed to being used primarily to attack anyone who opposes the Bush Administration and their policies. It has less, if anything to do with confronting a "War on Terrorism".

[Why Syzygy]

57. Well put

but when you consider that the "Terror" is squatting in the WhiteHouse, the "war" takes on a new meaning.

[Lannes]

20. Problem is that it isnt just goverment we need to be worried about

Corporations are stockpiling huge amounts of information about us,our habits.We've seen many examples where that info has been turned over to the government without a fight,without any authorization from the Patriot act.

[scarletwoman]

23. How would I know?

They could be monitoring every post I make and every blog I visit. That doesn't mean I'd be aware of it.

I already know I have an FBI file from my activist days in the 60's-70's. Would they chose to bother with me now? Who knows?

It hardly makes any difference anyway. If the "Commander-in-Chief" decides that any one of us is an "enemy", we can be snatched up off the street and hauled off to detention with no fanfare whatsoever. No lawyer or charges or trial, either.

So, fuck 'em. The point is, I don't object to the Patriot Act because of how it may affect ME -- I object to it because of how it affects our whole Constitutional Republic. I object to the very PRINCIPLE of living in a National Security Police state!

sw

[Selatius]

25. I need two things: A good lawyer and access to gov't records

The lawyer would help me navigate the labyrinth of documents and paperwork and bureaucracies and red tape found within the government, and the government records would show to the extent, if any, my privacy was violated. Next step would be sueing the federal government.

But I'm just a poor worker. I don't have access to the money needed for a good attorney, and I don't want to fall behind on my bills. Ultimately, I just want to be left alone, but nobody seems to want to leave me alone.

[beam me up scottie]

29. Excellent post.

You ask some very important questions.

[petgoat]

30. Even if You Don't Know You've Been Targetted, If the Chance

that you might be is causing you to change your behavior even a little
bit, the Patriot Act is having a chilling effect.

I have a friend who's asked me not to email him any more.

I used to be afraid to visit certain websites, but finally I just said
'fuck 'em, they can't kill all of us!'

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. That has been my attitude since day one of this insanity

they can't stop all of us damn it.. so I keep going on with my life like if they were not there.

That said, I will not be surprised if I am in the no fly list, or if they track my web activity, or for that matter.... my website.

Hey boys hope you learn something.

;-)

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. I have a friend who won't post here on DU

because he thinks Uncle Sam is monitoring this site. Seriously. :scared: :crazy:

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. I am sure they are monitoring the site

This is for Agent mike

FUCK HOOVER!

He will know where taht comes from, but if your friend chooses not to becuse of that... they won

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. Hi Mike!!

I have tried that argument on my friend. He is pretty paranoid though.

[beam me up scottie]

54. I used to be when it came to visiting certain websites.

But I refuse to let them intimidate me.

Actually, if we want to aggravate BB, we should visit more subversive websites. And use a lot of words that are flagged by the government, like "Spongebob" and "Clinton".

:evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

45. Your friend is probably right.

And it's Big Brother, not Unca Sam.
And it's no reason to not post here or anywhere else.
If you're politically active, they know about you.

They monitor many boards. Peace organizations. Activist organizations.
Political sites. Animal rights sites. Human rights organizations.
They monitor pretty much anything that may encourage dissent.
Except they call some of us "domestic terrorists".

[Zorra]

44. How should I know? The government can invade my privacy whenever

it wants to, in any way it wants to. I have no way of knowing.

Hell, they probably have my computer monitored and are reading this as I key it.

[Agent Orange]

58. The Sneak and Peek provision of the Patriot act was used...

...in the "discovery" of the tunnel b/w BC Canada and Washington state.

Of course this won't be talked about by the Corporate Media. In fact, I think the only actual mention of this was in Canadian sources.

And since I do nothing illegal, like dig tunnels under international borders or smuggle pot, it doesn't affect me. But if anyone thinks this is the last anyone will hear of the Sneak and Peek, well...

A section of the "Patriot Act" that limited it's new powers to terrorism and terrorism only would have been a good thing, IMHO.

[LeftyMom]

46. I don't know

I'm not up to anything terribly interesting so if anybody's keeping a file on what I'm up to they're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

[beam me up scottie]

48. It's all done electronically

and they may never need to find out who "LeftyMom" is.
But if they do, it will be accessible to them without so much as a phone call.
They don't have to prove to a judge that you are a threat.
They don't have to ask for a warrant.
They don't need to ask for anything anymore.

That's the beauty of the Patriot Act.

[The Magistrate]

59. Locking

Unfortunately, this has become a flame-war.